If you had an unvaccinated 14yo..... - Mothering Forums

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Old 01-13-2007, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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and you told him that it was now up to him to decide which - if any - shots he would like to get to protect him from the so-called "childhood diseases" he has not ever had, what is the one of two information sources you would provide him with to give him a truly balanced view of whether or not the shots would be beneficial to him?

I remember a series of graphs printed in a Mothering magazine a good 11-12 years or so ago that showed the disease decline rates in relation to the introduction of the vaccines, but I can't remember which issue it might have been.
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Old 01-13-2007, 10:07 PM
 
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Well..I'm not sure how i would go about this, but then i have time yet, LOL!!

First, I would robably just leave out the ones that are no longer even a consideration due to age....HiB and pertussis, for example, and also the ones that aren;t relevant due to his gender (chicken pox and rubella are mainly to protct fetuses, of which he'll never carry) and focus on the ones that "might" be relevant to his life....mumps, meningitis, hep B, etc.


I think it is going to be hard, since clearly you know enough to be against them....can you really play devil's advocate?

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Old 01-13-2007, 10:09 PM
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Graphs are here: http://healthsentinel.com/graphs.php

I have provided my son with every source I had so far, and it was a lot more than two. In fact, he didn't think he needed that many, he figured if he survived up to his age so far without shots, why would he think he can't survive the next 20 years or so without any
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Old 01-13-2007, 11:44 PM
 
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First, get titres done to make sure he hasn't had a sub-clinical case. He may have had some things that you don't know about and already be immune. When my DS had measles, mumps, and I suspect CP, we'd never have known just by his symptoms - they were each like a mild cold that lasted a day.
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Old 01-13-2007, 11:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mehndi mama View Post
and you told him that it was now up to him to decide which - if any - shots he would like to get to protect him from the so-called "childhood diseases" he has not ever had

You're putting your child's medical decisions in your child's hands?

Shouldn't he be more concerned right now with school, socializing, sports, etc.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:24 AM
 
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I can't answer your questions, because I would not give a 14 year old the responsibility of deciding on which vaxes to get. I don't give my 16 year that choice for any medications, let alone vaccines.

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Old 01-14-2007, 12:30 AM
 
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I'm also wondering why the change? Has he been asking for them? Or is it just that you've said now that he's 14... yada yada...? Seems like if it's been working so far, why would he need to learn about this now?

I do believe children should be active in their own healthcare, but is he initiating this? Could he getting propaganda from school or elsewhere?
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LongIsland View Post

You're putting your child's medical decisions in your child's hands?

Shouldn't he be more concerned right now with school, socializing, sports, etc.
I think 14 is totally old enough to have a say in their own healthcare.

I'd do a titre check first and go from there.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:16 AM
 
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I think 14 is totally old enough to have a say in their own healthcare.
Yes, but it's one thing for a child to have a say and another thing to tell your child "that it is now up to him to decide."

That's like saying, "well son, you're 14 now. Even though you've been Catholic all your life, here's a bunch of information on some other
religions . . . now it's up to you to decide."
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:23 AM
 
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right, it's not like "you can choose whether or not to take the vicodin after your tooth is pulled"- that I get- the vaccine issue is not necessarily beyond the comprehension of a 14 yr old, but at that age, I certainly wouldn't have had the maturity to care enough to do all the research necessary- it would have seemed very boring to me to look at the graphs, etc- and if what I did see was the CDC, government etc telling me it's dangerous not to be vaxed, I may have made the fear-based decision to do it. I think I would have seen my parents giving me that choice as a crack in their facade, like they weren't really sure about what they were doing. I don't care if my daughter is 30 and wants to get vaxed, I'd be convincing her not to and begging her to read information against it, and I'd never willingly bring her to an appointment to receive a vax, any more than I'd give her drugs or let her throw herself into traffic just because it was "her choice".

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Old 01-14-2007, 01:25 AM
 
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I think 14 is totally old enough to have a say in their own healthcare.
That includes smoking, staying out late (not getting enough sleep), drinking, eating junk to no end, doing drugs, using birth control, what else????

Certainly if you consider that he should be free to inject toxic vaccines into his own body the rest should be left up to him to decide as well.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LongIsland View Post
That's like saying, "well son, you're 14 now. Even though you've been Catholic all your life, here's a bunch of information on some other
religions . . . now it's up to you to decide."
Actually that is not going to potentially harm him, it is not irreversible, it is only going to widen his horizon. That is something a child of 14 can be researching.

But injecting his body, possibly causing life long damage... that is completely different.

I say let him change his religion if he wants, but keep his body free of toxins if at all possible.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:33 AM
 
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Yes, but it's one thing for a child to have a say and another thing to tell your child "that it is now up to him to decide."

That's like saying, "well son, you're 14 now. Even though you've been Catholic all your life, here's a bunch of information on some other
religions . . . now it's up to you to decide."
I'm getting the impression that the OP is going to simply give him the option to choose to have himself vaccinated now if he wants to, but is also going to attempt to provide him with factual information along the way.
Not that she's saying "This is all up to you now", but rather "Here's the deal, what do you think? Do you feel strongly about this?"
...Just including him in the decision making process.

I honestly don't see what the problem is with that. If he's really never had chickenpox, he might want to brave the vax instead of deal with having the disease as a teen/adult. It's a mess trying to lay out the key points necessary to make a really informed decision, but I think it's possible.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:33 AM
 
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I think that the degree to which a 14 year old can realistically participate in the healthcare decision making process is going to be something that varies from one child to the next & I'd have no problem letting them participate if they were able. I happen to have twins nearing that age & due to their substantial differences, I anticipate that at 14 one would be able to contribute significantly more than the other. Definitely one of my resources would be the Pink Book. I think another might be the vax schedules over the years.

But then I may not be the best judge of such things since I do sometimes let my kids stay up too late, they do eat junk food on occasion & I'd let them use birth control if they felt they needed it.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:36 AM
 
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That includes smoking, staying out late (not getting enough sleep), drinking, eating junk to no end, doing drugs, using birth control, what else????

Certainly if you consider that he should be free to inject toxic vaccines into his own body the rest should be left up to him to decide as well.
See, I actually do think live, attenuated viral vaccines can prevent the disease. You don't. So we're not going to look at this the same way.

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Old 01-14-2007, 01:39 AM
 
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Not that she's saying "This is all up to you now", but rather "Here's the deal, what do you think? Do you feel strongly about this?" ...Just including him in the decision making process.
That is not how it reads to me:

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Originally Posted by mehndi mama View Post
If you had an unvaccianted 14yo and you told him that it was now up to him to decide which - if any - shots he would like to get to protect him from the so-called "childhood diseases" he has not ever had, what is the one of two information sources you would provide him with to give him a truly balanced view of whether or not the shots would be beneficial to him?
Not to mention that it looks like she is planning on giving him one source of information in order for him to make that decision. In that case, she may as well give him the VIS. It's written for a child.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:40 AM
 
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I think that the degree to which a 14 year old can realistically participate in the healthcare decision making process is going to be something that varies from one child to the next. I happen to have twins nearing that age & due to their substantial differences, I anticipate that at 14 one would be able to contribute significantly more than the other. Definitely one of my resources would be the Pink Book. I think another might be the vax schedules over the years.
That's what I think, too.
And I'm thinking that the OP knows her kid, and has decided that he has the cognative ability at this point to be entitled to an opinion on the matter.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:42 AM
 
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That is not how it reads to me:
But the fact that she's here asking us what sources to use to show him tells us that it's a cooperative effort between the two of them.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:43 AM
 
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But the fact that she's here asking us what sources to use to show him tells us that it's a cooperative effort between the two of them.
I added to that post. I wrote: Not to mention that it looks like she is planning on giving him one source of information in order for him to make that decision. In that case, she may as well give him the VIS. It's written for a child.

How many sources of information have YOU been using in order to make "truly balanced" decisions?
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:47 AM
 
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That's what I think, too.
And I'm thinking that the OP knows her kid, and has decided that he has the cognative ability at this point to be entitled to an opinion on the matter.
My 12 year olds participated in a vax decision for themselves within the past month.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:57 AM
 
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If they are treated competently and are given all the facts, I find that kids make remarkably mature decisions.

I do not think the vax issue can be understood by anyone, child or adult, with one or two sources. It's a way too complex an issue and requires lots of time, lots of resources, and lots of self-education.
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:06 AM
 
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I added to that post. I wrote: Not to mention that it looks like she is planning on giving him one source of information in order for him to make that decision. In that case, she may as well give him the VIS. It's written for a child.

How many sources of information have YOU been using in order to make "truly balanced" decisions?
Ok...I see your point there...lol..
But I still don't think putting the OP on the defensive is really helpful here.
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:07 AM
 
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It's a way too complex issue and requires lots of time, lots of resources, and lots of self-education.
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:10 AM
 
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Ok...I see your point there...lol..
But I still don't think putting the OP on the defensive is really helpful here.
I knew you would and I knew you wouldn't take offense at my question b/c I knew the answer, but as far as potentially putting the OP on the defensive - this board ain't Lollipop Lane, YKWIM?
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Old 01-14-2007, 03:13 AM
 
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Definitely start with titres and go from there.

Many so-called "childhood illnesses" are far more mild during childhood than in adolescence or adulthood. Can't measles cause sterility in men? Of course, there are plenty of ways to treat measles to avoid that complication, but I don't think anybody will deny that it's safer for a 5yo boy to get measles than it is for a 15yo man/boy to get measles. I think it's perfectly reasonable to include that fact in any decision-making process.

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Old 01-14-2007, 12:50 PM
 
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Can't measles cause sterility in men?
Mumps-induced sterility is a potential complication. However, it's so rare that the CDC has no stats on it (even in the prevaccine era) and if it did happen, they've all got another testicle.

FTR, it is recognized that the MMR vaccine (which is live) causes orchitis just like the "natural" mumps virus can. Therefore, the vaccine has the potential to cause sterility.

Not only is orchitis an "official" adverse effect of the MMR vaccine, but there are loads of VAERS reports to support this fact.
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Old 01-14-2007, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OK, I think I need to clear some things up.

I asked for your 2 best sources just because I wanted to hear what each of you would use if you had to be limited to 2. Sort of like your Desert Island Top 10, kwim?

Second, we decided 12 years ago that we would not vaccinate our infants, and would instead delay, wait and see if they got any of the illnesses as children, and then once they were older and more at risk for getting an illness with complications, they would be givien the option of having the vaccines if they felt strongly about having them.

Yes, I do believe I can play the devil's advocate. But I also want to be armed with good, concise information that involves plenty of facts and figures, and not a lot of scare tactics in either direction. So I asked for each of you to list your 2 best sources, keeping in mind that it would be a 14yo reading them.

I am NOT leaving the decision up to him entirely. I think it is important for him to know that the risk of complications from diseases like measles and mumps *does* increase as people get older. And I do think it is up to him, ultimately, to make the final decision, or to decide to wait a while longer.

It's been a long time since I've done any vaccine research - we did plenty when Ian was a toddler, but that was 12 years ago. Now that we have 5 kids, isn't it time for me to start gathering the information, since they will be reaching physical maturity in fairly close succession?

So, back to my original question. What are your 2 BEST SOURCES to present a balanced view of the pros and cons of vaccinating for illnesses?
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Old 01-14-2007, 05:02 PM
 
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You might think about asking over in the S&D forum too.
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Old 01-14-2007, 05:48 PM
 
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I think you're working off the assumption that the vaccines are very effective and that it's a clear cut issue that it's more dangerous for him to get the disease vs. getting the shots just because he's older- I don't agree with either, and I couldn't possibly list just two sources because I needed hundreds. MT's book is incredible though.

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Old 01-15-2007, 01:32 AM
 
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There simply are no top 2 sources. That's what we've been trying to say. It's waaayy too complex an issue to distill down in any meaningful way.

I agree that MT's book may be the closest, though. In part because she really understand that.
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