What exactly is their justification for having to give hep b at birth? - Mothering Forums

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Old 03-21-2007, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Back before my son's reactions, I vax'ed on schedule and did exactly what our dr. told me. I still held my breath after each round of vax'es and hoped for the best...I was terrifed by vax'ing, but terrified by not and figured it was one of those necessary evils with risk we would have to take. (Obviously learned a LOT in the last year!) I remember feeling even sicker about it all when hep b suddenly had to be given at birth for my two youngest children. I worried so much those first few days...wondering how those tiny little bodies would take to a vax so early in life.

So WHAT exactly is the justification for the necessity of newborn infants needing the hep b vax at birth? I have a few friends having babies, and I have been telling my friends to avoid the hep b shot at birth and let their baby at least recover from birth itself. Of course, one of them says it MUST be necessary at birth for a reason. Just wondering if there is some kind of concrete reasoning behind it.

I am hoping to work through each vax with my friends and at least convice them to skip a few/delay as many as possible...even though they are as mainstream as could be.

Anyways, TIA!
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:16 PM
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I'll go with the "Momma is a ho" theory; afterall, it's why they force uncomfortably blinding ointments into their newborn eyes.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:25 PM
 
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My ped tried to explain it to me in a way that it is "a public health" concern. He said that unfortunately there are women all over the US that just walk into emergency rooms to deliver babies...and since there isn't time to test the mother and determine whether or not she is Hep B positive, they will just inject ALL babies. Also....if the first of the 3 shot series is administered in the hospital, some mothers are more inclined to make it to well baby visits so they can complete the series.....and then be subjected to more shots.


It's kind of the same thing with the erythromician eye ointment....my understanding is that it is an antibiotic given in case the mother has an STD, the baby will not pick it up while going thru the birth canal. (it's given to c-section babies though too, so not sure what the logic is there---guess there isn't).

Just examples of out "one shot fits all" society. : I'm sure others have some better examples of how this Hep B shot became a "good idea" for newborns!

it all pretty sad....very sad...
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Old 03-21-2007, 07:29 PM
 
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Because they couldn't get high-risk adults to come in and get vaccinated, so they started giving it to EVERYONE at birth:

"Difficulty in gaining
access to these populations is also a problem. Further, success
in providing vaccine to persons in high-risk groups has been
limited because of rapid acquisition of infection after beginning
high-risk behaviors, low initial vaccine acceptance,
and low rates of completion of vaccinations.
A comprehensive strategy to eliminate hepatitis B virus
transmission was recommended in 1991; it includes
...routine vaccination of infants..."

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/hepb.pdf

Additionally, hepB at birth does NOT protect a baby whose mother is unknowingly infected. The baby would require HepB immune globulin in addition to the vax in order to be protected in that case.

Well, I guess the vax alone would protect the baby from contracting it in the future through the mother's breast milk if he didn't already have it from pregnancy/birth. But the vax is not retroactive--only the immune globulin + vax.
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Old 03-21-2007, 08:05 PM
 
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Oh BOY am I excited to see someone post this question! I am having SUCH a difficult time trying to find more information. Even the CDC recommends that babies get the first dose b/t BIRTH and 2 months old...so if I were to do it at all (which I really don't believe we will) I would most certainly wait until 2 months old at LEAST.

I hope more people can come here and post more information. I am 37.5 weeks pregnant and this is one of the final decisions that needs to be made.

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Old 03-21-2007, 09:45 PM
 
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They suggest giving it to all babies, to avoid discrimination lawsuits.

If you have a few drug 'junkies' or say, prostitutes or other 'high risk behavior moms' in your maternity ward (more like emergency room doing a last minute delivery), and yet the rest of your delivery 'ward' is otherwise low risk or 'tested' and Hep free..... You give the injection to all the babies, so that the 'high risk' moms can't scream discrimination, when it's only 'their' babies getting this injection.

Unless you think your newborn will be having sex, or sharing needles with junkies, or you think you or a close family member (that would be in contact in said way) with your dc, and might be a carrier....there is no reason to give it at birth.

I personally believe if Pharma companies could 'guarantee' a mandantory shot series, from birth, administered in the hospitals to ALL babies before they were allowed to go home, they'd be quite happy to see their 'bottom line' sales increase through the roof...
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by xtara2003x View Post
Oh BOY am I excited to see someone post this question! I am having SUCH a difficult time trying to find more information. Even the CDC recommends that babies get the first dose b/t BIRTH and 2 months old...so if I were to do it at all (which I really don't believe we will) I would most certainly wait until 2 months old at LEAST.

I hope more people can come here and post more information. I am 37.5 weeks pregnant and this is one of the final decisions that needs to be made.

Welcome Tara! It is a tough decision. We vaxed our first, started vaxing our second, then stopped. I started reading heavily in Aug/Sept of last year and only recently have felt completely comfortable not vaxing AT ALL EVER.

A great place to start is the CDC Pink Book. It explains each disease in great detail, and admits that you have a greater chance of a vax reaction than gettting a disease. And even if you do get a disease, they are not nearly as scary as you might think! Here's the link:
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/..._pink_full.htm

It also lists stats for each disease from 1950, and vaccine coverage for them. You'll see that some started to decline well before the vax was introduced. You'll see that Hib, for example, has declined dramatically since the vax was introduced, but that other strains of Hi are on the rise as a result. Very informative! Best of luck and congratulations on your upcoming arrival!
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks all. Well hopefully that will help convince my sil on the fence about doing whatever the hospital tells her! I am pretty comfortable that at least one of my other friends will surely be declining it (as well as turning down quite a few other vax'es pretty easily).

P.S. Should I have any fear that my newest baby will get vax'ed without my consent at birth?? I don't even know when they did they hep b vaccine for the other 2. I am guessing its one of those things I am going to have to tell every nurse and doctor that comes into the room.
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:24 AM
 
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The hospital where I gave birth to my son is in Texas, so it might be different for you. A nurse came in with a form that I had to sign to give or deny them consent to administer the Hep B vac. Here's the kicker, she didn't tell me I could deny it at first. I said that our ped had no problem with us delaying the vaccine and she left ( I guess to let us think about it?). Later she came back and said that if I really didn't want to do it, I just needed to sign that I'm declining it. So I did.

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Old 03-22-2007, 02:38 AM
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I also had to sign a form to consent to it or to deny it. The nurse made it a point to tell me I was free to say no. I was so blown away that they would even consider vaxing a newborn for hep b. Before my dd's birth I wasn't completely sure where I stood on the vax issue, but the hep b at birth pretty much put me into the ain't no freaking way camp.

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Old 03-22-2007, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by drnmd1216 View Post
Thanks all. Well hopefully that will help convince my sil on the fence about doing whatever the hospital tells her! I am pretty comfortable that at least one of my other friends will surely be declining it (as well as turning down quite a few other vax'es pretty easily).

P.S. Should I have any fear that my newest baby will get vax'ed without my consent at birth?? I don't even know when they did they hep b vaccine for the other 2. I am guessing its one of those things I am going to have to tell every nurse and doctor that comes into the room.
I think you should be... they vaccinated my daughter at birth without my consent. I didn't know then what I know now and didn't pursue legal action against them-- I even signed the consent when they gave it to me after they had already vaxed her .. it was a rough time-- I was in a state of shock and grief b/c was placed in the NICU and separated from me for 3 days due to "breathing problems" despite apgar scores of 8 and 9-- so yes, I would say there is reason to be concerned about what they might do without your consent.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:19 AM
 
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Because they can't get the "at risk" groups to come in. My ped. actually ran into the room where the nurses were about to give dd the shot, shouting, "Get that shot away from that baby!!!!!"

:Mama to 2 :
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:33 AM
 
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I agree with all the PP. Even my old pro-vax Ped told us that they only give it because the baby is right there in the hospital, easy access, and they'd be protected when they became sexually active (which I don't believe is true anyway, as it wears off.) Also, it would supposedly protect those infants whose mom is Hep B positive.

The reasoning is maddening. Having HepB vax on the schedule for all babies really burns me up.

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Old 03-22-2007, 04:33 AM
 
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Hi-ya Melissa! I like the first reply

No way my girls were getting that. No way jose. Kuddos to you for taking the current stand you have and being pro-active. Nice to have a friend who thinks the same as me.

I would actually like to chat with you about any info you have on homeschooling. Get with ya later.
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Old 03-22-2007, 11:14 AM
 
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Because they are *accesible*.

Lola , loving my DH, Mama to & we &
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Old 03-22-2007, 11:43 AM
 
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Here is the CDC recommendation when it came out in 1991: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00033405.htm


Hepatitis B vaccination is recommended for all infants, regardless of the HBsAg status of the mother.

Hepatitis B vaccine should be incorporated into vaccination schedules for children. The first dose can be administered during the newborn period, preferably before the infant is discharged from the hospital, but no later than when the infant is 2 months of age.


This document provides the rationale for a comprehensive strategy to eliminate transmission of HBV and ultimately reduce the incidence of hepatitis B and hepatitis B-associated chronic liver disease in the United States. The recommendations for implementing this strategy include making hepatitis B vaccine a part of routine vaccination schedules for infants.

Each year, approximately 150,000 infants are born to women who have immigrated to the United States from areas of the world where HBV infection is highly endemic. Children born to HBsAg-positive mothers can be identified through prenatal screening programs. However, children born to HBsAg-negative immigrant mothers are still at high risk of acquiring HBV infection, usually from other HBV carriers in their families or communities. Infections among these children can be prevented by making hepatitis B vaccine part of their routine infant vaccinations.

Because screening selected pregnant women for HBsAg has failed to identify a high proportion of HBV-infected mothers, prenatal HBsAg testing of all pregnant women is now recommended. Screening and vaccination programs for women and infants receiving care in the public sector have already been initiated through state immunization projects.



******

There is no valid justification for the Hepatitis B birth dose for Hepatitis B negative mothers, particularly since universal prenatal testing is standard, not to mention mandatory is almost every state.
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Old 03-22-2007, 11:58 AM
 
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That still doesn't really explain it very well as far as the need for a *at birth* dose goes.

I think it's mostly about:

1) a way to make the vaccine cheaper for China
2) the WHO came up with the idea of birth doses in poor countries (I think they even supply local midwives with it), and the CDC probably just thought "Hey...good enough for India, good enough for the US!"

http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?s...62006000100016
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:04 PM
 
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"captive population" was the word one doctor used.

Also, HepB can take a while to show up in the blood, so their justification is that even if you tested negative while pregnant, you could still have developed hepB later on in your pregnancy. That's why they give it to all babies.

It's ridiculous. The population the vaccine was intended for wasn't lining up at the neon sign at the free clinic for HepB vaccine... so they started giving it to those they COULD get-- Babies.

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:13 PM
 
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That still doesn't really explain it very well as far as the need for a *at birth* dose goes.

I think it's mostly about:

1) a way to make the vaccine cheaper for China
2) the WHO came up with the idea of birth doses in poor countries (I think they even supply local midwives with it), and the CDC probably just thought "Hey...good enough for India, good enough for the US!"

http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?s...62006000100016
Definitely, universal recommendation makes the vaccine cheaper for China and other countries.

The CDC also reasoned that, at the time, there was no universal prenatal screening recommendation in place, except for those receiving care at public health departments.

So, what do they do, they make the universal screening recommendation, which results in state screening mandate, but they also recommended the birth dose . . . regardless of whether the mother was positive or negative.



All the while, not having a care in world about the thimerosal concentration in this birth dose.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LI (CDC quote)
However, children born to HBsAg-negative immigrant mothers are still at high risk of acquiring HBV infection, usually from other HBV carriers in their families or communities.
Will they be sharing needles or having sex with said family?? ***see mamakay's ddddc***


Quote:
Each year, approximately 150,000 infants are born to women who have immigrated to the United States from areas of the world where HBV infection is highly endemic.
OK. Please somebody help me understand how a blood-born pathogen gets to be highly endemic. Maybe I'm missing something critical here, but I can't see that it's really the huge deal this statement is trying to make it.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:22 PM
 
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Definitely, universal recommendation makes the vaccine cheaper for China and other countries.

The CDC also reasoned that, at the time, there was no universal prenatal screening recommendation in place, except for those receiving care at public health departments.

So, what do they do, they make the universal screening recommendation, which results in state screening mandate, but they also recommended the birth dose . . . regardless of whether the mother was positive or negative.



All the while, not having a care in world about the thimerosal concentration in this birth dose.
And then when the screenings and IG works, they proclaim the infant immunization program a success.


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Old 03-22-2007, 12:38 PM
 
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OK. Please somebody help me understand how a blood-born pathogen gets to be highly endemic. Maybe I'm missing something critical here, but I can't see that it's really the huge deal this statement is trying to make it.
I'd bet a million dollars it was iatrogenic a lot of times.
They gave a lot of people a lot of blood products before they even knew HepB existed. And HepB is also an STD, so it just took off in some areas.
They also used to vaccinate different people with the same needle.

Also, people who are starving have a higher viral load, so it takes less for it to spread from person to person in really poor countries. Selenium deficiency also has a lot to do with people's HepB viral load. China was able to hugely reduce their HepB problem just by fortifying with selenium.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:44 PM
 
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Yeah, that sounds like the missing piece. Makes more sense now.
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:34 PM
 
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The only to reasons I've ever been given is to protect the baby if mom has hep b, and just because the younger the vaccines are given the more people get them...a huge percentage of kids are born in hospitals, then a slightly small percentage go to well baby visits those first few months, then a smaller # keep going for the first year, and it keeps getting less and less, so it's easier to get that "herd immunity" everyone always talks about the younger the vaccines are given.

IMO, I bet the reasoning is much more #2 than #1...if #1 was the only reasoning they wouldn't try giving it to babies whose mother's had blood work in pregnancy that showed they were negative for hep b, ya know?

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Old 03-23-2007, 01:41 AM
 
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P.S. Should I have any fear that my newest baby will get vax'ed without my consent at birth?? I don't even know when they did they hep b vaccine for the other 2. I am guessing its one of those things I am going to have to tell every nurse and doctor that comes into the room.[/QUOTE]


Thankfully the hospital that I deliver at quit doing the hep b vax at birth, but the hospital that is 10miles away still does. 2 of my friends that delivered there in the last 6mos were told that thier kids were vaxed with hep b AFTER they had it done.

I would make it very clear that you arn't getting it.

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Old 03-23-2007, 02:00 AM
 
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In endemic areas, it's usually passed from mother to child at birth. Although most adults can clear the infection and gain lifelong imunity, most babies do not clear it, but become chronic carriers. The babies that do not get it, often get it from sharing household items with other babies/toddlers that are chronic carriers from birth. By age 3-5, children aren't getting new infections, typically.
The immunization at birth gives a small amount of protection, much smaller than the immunoglobulin + vax combination.
I am very consious of NOT saying "oh, it's sexually transmitted and babies don't have sex or share needles". I live in an area with lots of immigrants, some of whom got HepB from their mothers - I'd like to offer them information on the best ways to break that cycle and not give it to their children. Making HepB shameful or associated with bad elements is not helpful to that goal.

That said, there's really no reason for the recommendation vaccination for all newborns. In fact, it serves as a lightening rod to make women wake up to the issues with vaccines. It's one that can be undone with common sense.

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Old 03-23-2007, 03:21 PM
 
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[QUOTE=lil_stinkyfeet;7631608]P.S. Should I have any fear that my newest baby will get vax'ed without my consent at birth?? I don't even know when they did they hep b vaccine for the other 2. I am guessing its one of those things I am going to have to tell every nurse and doctor that comes into the room. QUOTE]

I wrote it on everything in the hospital room I could write on - all the things I didn't want - I even wrote on the little "It's a Boy!" card they stick in the slot on the baby bed they put in the room with you - "NO VAX! NO CIRC! see mother before any interventions!" Plus I told my midwife and all the nurses who even walked through the door - making sure I made eye contact and got a response from each of them. Also, if you are up to it (or your partner or birth helper) you can go everywhere your baby goes. You can go in to the hearing test with them, everything. They have to let you. They can't take your baby away without your consent. It sounds paranoid, but too many people have had things done without their consent - I never let mine out of mine or dp's sight after birth.
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Old 03-23-2007, 08:14 PM
 
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The cheaper for China makes sense to me. I was ticked that my cousin who had a son like a week after me vaxed for Hep B because the story she was told was that Asians are more likely to get Hep B, or have it in the mother without her knowing about it. It sounded like a lot of racist BS. But then if they are talking about Chinese, I guess there is some basis... not that either one of us are from China or are living in China. It's that kind of tenuous logic that permeates public health. They even know that some drugs affect different genders and races differently but don't really test to see what the differences are.
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:23 PM
 
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How long do you think it will take for the HPV vaccine to be given at birth? I would guess within the next five years.

Captive audience, vulnerable new parents, and guaranteeing a market drove Hep B to be given at birth. I got the vaccine when I was in college-fast forward 7 years and I find out its being given at birth? I couldn't BELIEVE it. Unfortunately DC got the vaccine even though in my heart I was nervous about it...I fell for the "30% of HBV infections are simply unknown-better to protect your baby now then risk it." ARGHH.

Big pharm=big dollars=highly paid lobbyists=mandated vaccines=scare tactics to ensure the money train doesn't derail :
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:25 PM
 
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Hmmm weird, in B.C Canada, they don't offer any shots till 2mo, none at birth none what so ever.
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