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#1 of 11 Old 07-10-2007, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, so my son has had all his vaxes until 1 year, when I finally "got it" as to how dangerous vaxing could be. I have DH on board with most, he's still adamant about DTaP, but I'm working on it.

So here are my questions, I'm not meaning to debate, I'm just truly trying to understand. DH and I disagree on the severity of complications due to vax. I'm VERY conspiracy theroryist (I know thats not a word ) and he is not. Here are the concerns he brought to me during our discussion I couldnt answer. I'd love any insight you all can give.

So our first ped was very nice. While we were still vaxing, at one WBV we were talking about TV and how much he hated Baby Einstein. He was VERY pro bf, saying his wife BF their daughter until she was 7. During the visit he said "If I could do anything for the world, it would be to take ALL the tvs out of every house, and to make sure every child in the world was vaccinated." Now, he was a nice guy. I dont believe that he is vaccinating babies to make money, knowing they hurt/kill. As a matter of fact we've never been charged for vaccines. I guess what I'm saying is I dont believe he's part of some money hungry machine hurting or killing babies for his own benefit. Why then, does he think vaccines are so safe? Can't he see everything I see when doing the research?

The second thing my DH brings up is the people at the people who work at the pharma companies. He thinks these researchers spend years and years of their live to help people (Not ALL of them, but the majority). He thinks if they were truly after money they could sell all they know about how evil these corps. are and make WAY more money than what a researcher makes now. He thinks they truly think they're helping the world and saving lives.

And the final thing I cant answer is insurance companies. So if the insurance companies are just out to make money (which we both agree is true, no debate there ) then why do they want us to vax, and pay for it? Insurance companies do a lot of research to protect their investment. Wouldnt they come to the same conclusions we do about vaxing and therefore not pay for them? Why would insurance companies want us sicker and needing more of their services?

Thank you so much for helping me! I'm NOT a debater and I need a lot of time to think about things. I just dont have a logical mind, I'm more emotional. I'd really appreciate any help you could give me! Thank you!!
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#2 of 11 Old 07-10-2007, 04:06 PM
 
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I do not think all vaccine people are in it for money. I fully believe that many think it's the right thing to do, to protect our kids. However, I also believe they are wrong. Vaccines themselves aren't evil or anything. It's the massive amount of injections children get before 5 (30+) that is the big issue.

DTaP, imo, is one of the scariest shots. A child's chance of SIDS is 8 times higher after they receive that shot. No child of mine will EVER get this shot. There are a few others I may consider, but never never never this one. My son had it at 2 months (he had 4 injections, and was only 6lbs) and I swore never again. I am amazed he didn't die from those. He was so tiny and a being a preemie and was so sensative to things.

I'd grab the book "What your doctor may not tell you about childhood vaccines" by Stephanie Cave. And then there's another by Aviva Jill Romm that is suppose to be really good. It gives a lot of info and your husband would probably do well to read it!
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#3 of 11 Old 07-10-2007, 04:06 PM
 
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Why then, does he think vaccines are so safe? Can't he see everything I see when doing the research?
Well, I'm of the opinion that most fully vaxed kids are fine. It's not like they're all horribly brain-damaged and atopic or anything. And since most kids in the US are reasonable healthy, and vaccinated, he probably just assumes there would be massive amounts of death and destruction without all of our vaccines. He wants to think what he does (prescribing vaccines) is the reason why so many of the kids in his practice aren't dead. Who wouldn't want to think that what they do for a living keeps children alive? And there's really a lot of pro-vaccine reinforcement in medicine pushing those ideas as being some kind of ultimate truth.

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He thinks if they were truly after money they could sell all they know about how evil these corps. are and make WAY more money than what a researcher makes now. He thinks they truly think they're helping the world and saving lives.
The human mind is a weird thing. I've met people who committed scientific fraud in pharmaceutical research, and they said they felt warm and fuzzy about saving lives while they were falsifying data. It sounds crazy, but it's true. I can't prove it, though.
I guess it's just like politics. I guess you can ask him if he thinks politicians might be able to convince themselves that everything they do is for some "greater good", even when it's obviously shady?
Or whether or not it's just a fact of human nature that people doing bad things convince themselves it's really not so bad?

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Insurance companies do a lot of research to protect their investment. Wouldnt they come to the same conclusions we do about vaxing and therefore not pay for them? Why would insurance companies want us sicker and needing more of their services?
The people making those decisions "believe in" vaccines just like everyone else.
And they don't always cover all vaccines, either. They tend to just stick with the bare "essentials".
Also, look at the vax schedule in countries with socialized medicine. Most of them only have two shots. (Dtap/IPV/Hib combo, and MMR). If vaccines were so "cost effective" all the time, wouldn't they have all the shots we have?
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#4 of 11 Old 07-10-2007, 04:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by *Aimee* View Post

So our first ped was very nice. ...Why then, does he think vaccines are so safe?
How is he supposed to think otherwise? Big pharma tells him what to believe and that's about it. Doctors who do their own research become very sceptical not only about vaccines but ALL aspect of modern medicine. So it is better not to look closely.

There are many docs who did write books. One I like to mention is Dr. Mendelsohn. Look at his books, all of them. You'll see a different picture altogether.

I believe the ped you described is one who is a 'good guy' and follows instructions that are given to him. He would never take a chance and look for himself.


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... people who work at the pharma companies. He thinks these researchers spend years and years of their live to help people (Not ALL of them, but the majority).
Each researcher does only a certain part and does that part repeatedly. They never see the whole picture. Only a fraction.


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He thinks if they were truly after money they could sell all they know about how evil these corps. are and make WAY more money than what a researcher makes now. He thinks they truly think they're helping the world and saving lives.
That is very naive. The pharma is way more powerful than that. There is no one that controls big pharma. It controls us and pretty much everything in our lives including what gets published (apropos health and medicine) and by whom.




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insurance companies....
Just another part of big pharma and it's web...
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#5 of 11 Old 07-10-2007, 04:21 PM
 
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Also...why do children of Catholics tend to grow up and be Catholic themselves, Muslim kids becoming Muslim adults, etc?

People believe whatever they're taught is "true". It's just human nature.
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#6 of 11 Old 07-10-2007, 05:26 PM
 
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Why then, does he think vaccines are so safe? Can't he see everything I see when doing the research?

As a medical professional I can tell you that doctors, nurses, or anyone else in the healthcare field is not given the type of research information that us selectively/delayed/non-vaxers seek out. Vaccines are the best thing since sliced bread and there's no questioning it. It's a deep-seated belief.


He thinks if they were truly after money they could sell all they know about how evil these corps. are and make WAY more money than what a researcher makes now.

Talk about naive. Most people are looking out for #1 - and there's nothing wrong with that - it's just human nature. People aren't going to risk their careers unless whatever they are blowing the horn on affects them personally. People have been screaming about vaccine adverse reactions for years but no one really listens. Who'd risk their job for that?



He thinks they truly think they're helping the world and saving lives. .

Now that I agree with.


And the final thing I cant answer is insurance companies. So if the insurance companies are just out to make money (which we both agree is true, no debate there ) then why do they want us to vax, and pay for it? Why would insurance companies want us sicker and needing more of their services?

As a true conspiracy theorist, you could see right through this Sick people equal more $. People die all the time from affects related to smoking - is there a vaccine? Are tobacco products illegal? Do ill people rack up millions of dollars in healthcare expense?

Yeah I know it's a little overboard, but so are some of the things your DH is saying. My DH just shrugged and said, "Whatever" when I told him that we weren't vaxing anymore and I almost wish he'd put up more of a fight so we could debate it. Now if something happens to the girls d/t a "vaccine preventable disease" he's going to blame it on me
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#7 of 11 Old 07-10-2007, 06:19 PM
 
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Insurance companies don't actually control the vaxing stuff very much. If they did they might actually look at the info more.

First, the old standards have been around for a long time and everyone assumes they are safe. That is why DTP, which wasn't safe, was replaced (after many years of concern on one side and bland confidence on the other) with DTaP, which may or may not be safer. A lot of inertia is in place around vaccines.

Second, new vaxes bypass the insurance companies. They are approved and mandated by a nifty combo of pharmaceutical folks and government folks, joined to some extent by a revolving door. If a vax is mandated, sometimes insurers can be forced to pay for it, but they can usually pass the cost through. I would suspect that most insurers would be happy not to have more and more vaxes mandated, but if they speak up about it they will be accused of wanting babies to die. Same way we are accused of wanting babies to die.
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#8 of 11 Old 07-11-2007, 01:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks so much! I wish all of you were in my head, but not in a creepy way

I just find that I get so upset because I believe so strongly that I just *know* it. And I shouldnt have to explain it. Then I get flustered.

I was shocked that he wanted to give DTaP too. He said in all his research he found nothing wrong with it. I pointed out he was only looking at MMR research. We still have one more round of vaxes to do on DS, but not till he's 5 so I have 4 years to talk him out of it. He did tell me when I get pregnant that he'd take the baby behind my back and vax him with DTaP at 2 months. I told him we'd no longer be getting pregnant then. Its a hard thing. He's just very scared of Whooping cough and tetanus.

ANYWAY I got side tracked. Thanks for your responses. I'm going to be memorizing them now
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#9 of 11 Old 07-11-2007, 09:32 PM
 
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I am a mom to premie twin boys and they were not nor have been vaxed. I just get concerned that "am I doing the right thing". Everytime that they get sick - I wonder what if? My Dd is 3 1/2 and was vaxed - but i don't think I will move forward with her on them...I still question is it the right thing. But as long as I read all of this and my gut tells me - they will not be vaxed.
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#10 of 11 Old 07-11-2007, 10:43 PM
 
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Has anyone seen that movie "Man of the Year" with Robyn Williams? Where the lady found the glitch in the computerized voting program after it was "too late" -- too late to fix it in time for the presidential election, meaning the company would suffer serious financial loss if they were honest about it at that point?

I think what happened in that movie, is similar to what would happen if anyone in a position to actually accomplish something, tried to blow the whistle on Big Pharma. Only Robyn Williams wouldn't be president, so the truth would be silenced and Big Pharma would succeed in its plot to kill, or otherwise destroy, the whistle-blower.

Most intriguing is the (movie) conversation the executive had with the whistle-blower after the election: he said the important thing wasn't making sure the elected president was truly the elected president -- but rather, making sure the American people didn't lose confidence in the elective process.

This sounds very similar to what mamakay said about the people who committed scientific fraud in pharmaceutical research -- how they said it made them feel good, because they were so sure they were saving lives.

So yeah, I don't deny there are people with good intentions in big pharma, insurance, and the medical field. And I think there are lots of people who think it's okay to lie to us in their crusade to "save lives."

And many others who find it morally convenient to persuade themselves that the lies that "save lives" just coincidentally "happen" to be the same lies that make them very, very rich.

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
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#11 of 11 Old 07-11-2007, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thats a very good point. It makes a lot of sense to me.
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