Vaccines never cause autism.. - Page 4 - Mothering Forums
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#91 of 118 Old 08-06-2007, 02:52 PM
 
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When you look back at the history of mercury damaged people - one must admit that it is not limited to vaccines.

The term, "Mad as a hatter" goes back to the early 1800's. http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-mad2.htm

One of the methods of 'curing' polio was to rub mercury on the back of the infected person. (just love mainstream medicine!)

The Greeks and Romans applyed it topically! Here is some fun reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(element)
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#92 of 118 Old 08-06-2007, 03:10 PM
 
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Mercury was the main treatment for syphilis during the 18th and 19th centuries and actually on into the 20th. I used to know someone who was in prison, in Germany during WWII (for anti-Nazi activity) and she mentioned the prostitutes being lined up for their mercury. I think she said shots, but I'm not sure.
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#93 of 118 Old 08-06-2007, 03:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scattershoot
That one is always used whenever there is a push from the medical community for a specific dx such as polio or adhd or when iatragenic conditions arise.
Wait...so you think the ADHD increase is "not real", but the autism increase is nothing but "real"?
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#94 of 118 Old 08-06-2007, 03:56 PM
 
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As a mother of a child who has been damaged by vaccines, I can promise you that you feel guilt about GIVING the vaccine (or at least allowing it to happen).
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#95 of 118 Old 08-06-2007, 08:51 PM
 
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Wait...so you think the ADHD increase is "not real", but the autism increase is nothing but "real"?
Excellent question. I guess we all have to decide what is real or not real for ourselves.

Ask an existential-like question, get an existential-like answer.

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. - Oscar Wilde
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#96 of 118 Old 08-06-2007, 09:07 PM
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Let's take pertussis. When an unvaccinated child gets pertussis, it is called "whooping cough", whereas if the child is vaccinated it's called the "90 day cough", "bronchitis", or "viral asthma".
Parapertussis, you forgot parapertussis! One of the definitions says 'a disease clinically identical to pertussis but caused by Bortadella parapertussis'

Oh, yeah and another medical textbook actually gave a definition of pertussis as 'a disease occurring in unvaccinated individuals'. Even better - vaccinated don't get it by definition.
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#97 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 07:21 PM
 
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Why are you so convinced that being vaxed doesn't result in a milder case of pertussis?
How would anyone know? That's the point I'm making. If my unvaxed son had been vaxed, the doctor would have told me that he had "a mild case" because he had been "immmunised". Of course, that's if he'd been diagnosed correctly with whooping cough, which I doubt. He certainly wouldn't have wanted to tell me that the three vaccines he'd received hadn't worked - at all.

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And I'm glad your ds didn't have a serious case, but he was 4 years old-far beyond the age where the most serious cases occur-6 months and under. What if he had caught it then?
But he didn't. Doctors warn new parents that they must immunise their babies against whooping cough because without a vaccine they could get it and die - or be brain-damaged for life. They do not tell them that whooping cough is a serious disease in babies under six months, nor that their baby needs a series of five shots in order to be "fully-protected" - by which time their child will be four years old. Whooping-cough is not a serious disease in a healthy child. It is not life-threatening.

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And as for your vaxed son, those doctors were ignorant to assume it couldn't be pertussis, I'll admit. What I disagreee with is this blanket statement that vaccines never work.
Well, there was an outbreak of pertussis here ten years ago and most of the children at the local school coughed, and coughed, and coughed. My unvaxed son had the same cough, which, as I said, was diagnosed as whooping cough within a week. Many of the children at the school, possibly 90% of whom were "fully-immunised" didn't get a whooping cough diagnosis. They stayed at school coughing their germs over everyone, and no doubt coughing their germs all over their baby brothers and sisters.

Out shopping one day, I met a friend whose 5 year old son had also been diagnosed with whooping cough. She told me that she could understand how my child had got whooping cough, he had no protection, but couldn't understand how her "fully-immunised" child had caught it. But, she continued, she was very relieved that he had been vaccinated because without it the doctor had said, he would have been much, much worse. As it turned out he'd been a lot sicker than my son.

Seeing as both our children had whooping cough, don't you think it's likely that all the children cough, cough, coughing at the school also had whooping cough, diagnosed as 'something else'?

Was there an epidemic that year? Well, soon afterwards another shot was added to the immunisation schedule, so I think we all know the answer to that question. "Give them another shot" is the standard response to vaccine failure. Now they've added another shot to make five. How many more will there be before they realise that the vaccine doesn't work?

Why is whooping cough called "a vaccine-preventable disease", when it isn't.

So, does vaccination make the disease milder? I don't think anyone could answer that with any certainty. For healthy children, the disease is mild.

Do you think that it's responsible for doctors to diagnose the symptoms of whooping cough as 'something else', when there are vulnerable babies at home and in the community?
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#98 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 07:23 PM
 
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Parapertussis, you forgot parapertussis! One of the definitions says 'a disease clinically identical to pertussis but caused by Bortadella parapertussis'
Darn it! You're right, Spy. I had completely forgotten about parapertussis! There are so many alternative diagnoses that doctors can dream up, aren't there?

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Oh, yeah and another medical textbook actually gave a definition of pertussis as 'a disease occurring in unvaccinated individuals'. Even better - vaccinated don't get it by definition.
Well, there you are then! Obviously, the five doctors I consulted about my fully-vaxed son's persistent cough, had read that textbook!
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#99 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 08:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sherlock007 View Post
.

Do you think that it's responsible for doctors to diagnose the symptoms of whooping cough as 'something else', when there are vulnerable babies at home and in the community?
Of course not,(as I already said in my last post), but I'm not convinced that getting the pertussis vax doesn't make for milder cases. And I never claimed that the pertussis vax was 100% effective, either. I realize that that vax doesn't give anything like life-long immunity. I don't even think the docs claim that.

By the way, my ped did stress that WP was most serious in babies 6 months or younger. She rec'd it but didn't really push us to do any vaxes-she was fine with delaying.
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#100 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 08:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sherlock
So, does vaccination make the disease milder? I don't think anyone could answer that with any certainty.
See...where I'm hung up is here:
ALL the blinded, randomized, controlled trials say the vaccine does have some effect. NONE of the trials say the vax doesn't ever do anything at all.

When you dig into the biology, it really doesn't seem like the vaccine can technically prevent the disease. And the epidemiology sort of confirms this, as WC is just as endemic as it ever was, it seems.
BUT...if the vax doesn't make the disease milder, why do the RCTs show that it does, in fact, have an effect?

I actually am enough of a conspiracy theorist to assume some studies are flat-out fraudulent. I think that happens. But if the vax really didn't do anything at all, ever, we'd have the occasional study popping up saying that, you know?
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#101 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 10:46 PM
 
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Of course not,(as I already said in my last post), but I'm not convinced that getting the pertussis vax doesn't make for milder cases. And I never claimed that the pertussis vax was 100% effective, either. I realize that that vax doesn't give anything like life-long immunity. I don't even think the docs claim that.
But they do tell new parents that vaccination will protect their baby, and lead them to believe that their baby is protected by the first shot, and the second.. Then the parents cart baby around everywhere they go, believing that they are "protected". And, they're not, are they?


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By the way, my ped did stress that WP was most serious in babies 6 months or younger. She rec'd it but didn't really push us to do any vaxes-she was fine with delaying.
Bethany, you are very, very fortunate to have a ped who is not pushing you. I was pushed from the word go, and my doctor dismissed my son's vaccine reactions time and time again. He and other 'health professionals' told me that they were quite common and certainly nothing to worry about, and strongly urged me to keep vaccinating my son so that he would be fully-protected. He was still "at risk". But after my son's prolonged seizure and change in personality after his third DPT, I didn't want him to have another vaccine - ever.

However, when my son was two, I foolishly believed the doctor's fearmongering - again. He told me that my son must receive the DT booster, and that particular vaccine was "perfectly safe".

My son reacted again. This time he did not recover but gradually lost the ability to speak and communicate, and developed bizarre behaviours. This was brain-damage but called "autism" - a mysterious disorder with no known cause or cure that just strikes some children out of the blue.

Having watched your perfectly normal son grow and develop for two years, would you have swallowed that?

I didn't.
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#102 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 10:47 PM
 
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Mamakay, If researchers don't use control groups of completely unvaccinated children in their research, and doctors are reluctant to diagnose WC in vaccinated children, how would they really know what effect the vaccine has?
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Mamakay, If researchers don't use control groups of completely unvaccinated children in their research, and doctors are reluctant to diagnose WC in vaccinated children, how would they really know what effect the vaccine has?
There HAVE been placebo controlled trials. They use the DT as the placebo.
No one in those tests knows which kids were given the pertussis vax and which weren't. The tests aren't unblinded until after the results are in.
And all the RTCs show that the pertussis vax does work to some extent.
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#104 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 10:54 PM
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But after my son's prolonged seizure and change in personality after his third DPT, I didn't want him to have another vaccine - ever.
Sherlock, is this the same fully vaccinated son who had persistent cough diagnosed as 'something else'? As in, he had both the disease and the vaccine damage?
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#105 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 11:09 PM
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There HAVE been placebo controlled trials. They use the DT as the placebo.
But then they assume that vaccinated with DT and totally unvaccinated children have exactly the same course of pertussis should they get it. As long as they are not vaccinated for pertussis. Totally missing the effect other vaccines (which they take for placebo) have on immune system. Would you say it's a fair assumption?
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#106 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 11:18 PM
 
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Sherlock, is this the same fully vaccinated son who had persistent cough diagnosed as 'something else'? As in, he had both the disease and the vaccine damage?
Yep.

And I can't find a smiley to show how I feel about that. Torn apart - even now, after fourteen years.
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#107 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 11:33 PM
 
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Mercury was the main treatment for syphilis during the 18th and 19th centuries and actually on into the 20th. I used to know someone who was in prison, in Germany during WWII (for anti-Nazi activity) and she mentioned the prostitutes being lined up for their mercury. I think she said shots, but I'm not sure.
I seem to recall that mercury was in that white powder that geishas used for their makeup. Not sure where I read that...
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#108 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 11:33 PM
 
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But then they assume that vaccinated with DT and totally unvaccinated children have exactly the same course of pertussis should they get it. As long as they are not vaccinated for pertussis. Totally missing the effect other vaccines (which they take for placebo) have on immune system. Would you say it's a fair assumption?
Well...yeah...I think aluminum hydroxide in particular does weird stuff to people's immune systems.

Are you thinking being vaccinated for tetanus and diphtheria make WC worse?

I guess I can maybe see it causing some kind of weirdo cytokine thing or something that might make the immune response to WC worse, maybe. But that's awfully theoretical...
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#109 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 11:42 PM
 
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I seem to recall that mercury was in that white powder that geishas used for their makeup. Not sure where I read that...
No, that was lead. In a number of European cultures and also, I think in Turkey, women used a white make-up containing lead on their faces. Nasty consequences.

Yes, Japan, too. Here is a note about it. http://www.immortalgeisha.com/makeup_01.php
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The women of the Heian era (and up to more modern times) used either a rice-flour powder or a lead-based powder mixed with water into a thin paste and applied to their face as a foundation. They then would remove their eyebrows with tweezers and paint in thick, straight, false eyebrows high on their forehead.
And here is some info about Europe, from Wikipedia (not my favorite source):
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In the Middle Ages, Renaissance and up until the Industrial Revolution, the lower classes had to work outside, in agricultural jobs. The typically light-colored European skin was darkened by exposure to the sun. The higher class a person was, the more leisure time he or she had to spend indoors, which kept the skin pale. Thus, the highest classed of European society, able to spend all of their time protected from the sun, frequently had the lightest-looking skin. As a result, European men and women often attempted to lighten their skin directly, or used white powder on their skin to look more aristocratic.[citation needed] A variety of products were used, including white lead paint which, as if the toxic lead wasn't bad enough, notoriously also contained arsenic.[citation needed] Queen Elizabeth I of England was one well-known user of white lead, with which she created a look known as "the Mask of Youth".[citation needed] Portraits of the queen by Nicholas Hilliard from later in her reign are illustrative of her influential style.[citation needed]
Lead poisoning was not uncommon.
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#110 of 118 Old 08-07-2007, 11:44 PM
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Are you thinking being vaccinated for tetanus and diphtheria make WC worse?
I think any vaccination makes you immunosupressed for some time after, degree and duration varies depending on your condition before vaccination. This is why vaccinated children are sick more often than the unvaccinated ones. All of this is not specific to WC, but why would WC be excluded?
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I think any vaccination makes you immunosupressed for some time after, degree and duration varies depending on your condition before vaccination. This is why vaccinated children are sick more often than the unvaccinated ones. All of this is not specific to WC, but why would WC be excluded?
Why do you think the kids who got the DT got WC either more frequently or more severely than the ones who also got the pertussis components, though?
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The pertussis vaccine has been known in medical circles and literature to be nuerotoxic. It is doctors who diagnose the whooping cough and who decide whether or not the disease is severe or not. I think they have an agenda in determining whether or not a cough is bronchitis or whooping cough.

I had whooping cough when I was six. I was not vaccinated. My sister got it from me.

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No, that was lead. In a number of European cultures and also, I think in Turkey, women used a white make-up containing lead on their faces.
Thank you. I knew it was a toxic metal that had no business on anyone's face or skin for that matter. I know that the Romans lined their copper goblets with lead to keep the wine from interacting with the copper metal. The lead did not taste, but it sure had a more devastating effect.
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#113 of 118 Old 08-08-2007, 12:06 AM
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Why do you think the kids who got the DT got WC either more frequently or more severely than the ones who also got the pertussis components, though?
Without reading the study I have no idea. Perhaps because they were too busy dealing with neurological damage from pertussis component to develop normal pertussis symptoms? Wouldn't the 'more frequent' part imply that the vaccine prevents transmission?
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#114 of 118 Old 08-08-2007, 12:22 AM
 
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Why do you think the kids who got the DT got WC either more frequently or more severely than the ones who also got the pertussis components, though?
Mamakay, I would like to read the study. Could you post a link?
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#115 of 118 Old 08-08-2007, 12:41 AM
 
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Mamakay, I would like to read the study. Could you post a link?
There have been a few of them. Here are 2:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...stract/101/1/1
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#116 of 118 Old 08-08-2007, 02:11 AM
 
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Thanks, Mamakay.

Actually, I'd much rather read the studies than the abstracts but I see you have to have to be a subscriber.

Conclusions can be so wrong, can't they? Like the one where they concluded that 95% of pediatricians in Switzerland vaccinated their own children according to the schedule.
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#117 of 118 Old 09-11-2007, 06:04 PM
 
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#118 of 118 Old 09-13-2007, 01:12 PM
 
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Mercury was the main treatment for syphilis during the 18th and 19th centuries and actually on into the 20th. I used to know someone who was in prison, in Germany during WWII (for anti-Nazi activity) and she mentioned the prostitutes being lined up for their mercury. I think she said shots, but I'm not sure.
sorry, OT, but interesting...

People also used to go to the hot springs for syphilis treatment. A mercury enema would be given while the patients relaxed in the water. The nurses who worked the springs (and would be in the water with the patients - bleh!) would go insane after a year or two of working there.
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