Measles at the Little League World Series - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 01:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20337555/
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Little League World Series officials have asked coaches, players and others with regular access to team dormitories to prove they have had measles shots after a player from Japan was diagnosed with the contagious illness.

Anyone who does not provide their history with measles, or who chooses not to take a blood test or get a shot, is required by law to remain in the South Williamsport area until Sept. 4, or 21 days after the Japan team arrived at the Little League complex.

Two teams — Japan and Chinese Taipei — have already elected to receive shots, Houseknecht said. Others teams were in the process of being notified Saturday, and coaches were notifying parents.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but getting the shots at THIS juncture would do nothing, right? Closing the barn door after the horse is out, so to speak.

I'd like to see the PA law that requires the inability to leave for the "non-compliants."

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#2 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 02:04 AM
 
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Wow. Scary.

-Angela
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#3 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 02:11 AM
 
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Crazy, you are right, a shot now would do NOTHING if they have already been exposed......
And I think that under "quarantine" laws, it could certainly be legal for them to require people not leave.......not saying it's right, but I bet it's legal.

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#4 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 10:26 AM
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A post-exposure measles vaccine administered within 72 hours of exposure can can protect susceptible individuals. A quarantine is certainly justified and legal given that the exposed will be boarding planes and flying back to their respective areas of residences potentially exposing hundreds of others.

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#5 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 10:26 AM
 
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That is ridiculous. I bet before too much longer the same will be said about CP ~ there will be an outbreak and everyone will be forced to get injected or be quarantined. You know that whole "quarantine" thing really adds to the fear-mongering and makes people truly believe it is something to run from!

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#6 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 11:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lokidoki View Post
That is ridiculous. I bet before too much longer the same will be said about CP ~ there will be an outbreak and everyone will be forced to get injected or be quarantined. You know that whole "quarantine" thing really adds to the fear-mongering and makes people truly believe it is something to run from!
I don't think it's the same. Measles, at it's most benign, was still over 4 times as deadly as chickenox. And in a highly vaccinated population that's barely teetering on the brink of herd immunity, measles is even 10 times deadlier. (coz the infants don't have passive immunity.)

My feelings about this are mixed. On one hand, Americans have paid our dues for several decades now and eliminated measles circulation. Every time there's an outbreak, it's imported. I don't think the CDC is fabricating the index cases who were overseas shortly before. So American kids are risking the very real cases of devastating measles vaccine encephalitis to keep away a virus we've already eliminated.
But if we were to just halt measles vaccination...we really honestly could have up to 4,000 measles deaths a year for who knows how long before infants started being born with more passive immunity again. I can't honestly say "Oh...4,000 baby funerals a year...no big deal". If anyone wants to explain to me how there's a way out of that, please do. Or if you don't think that's the unnatural situation we're in, tell me how it's not the case. Coz I look at the 1991 measles outbreak data and it's just unreal how high the case/fatality ratio was. And even Paul Offit and Arthur Allen say it's because we've been vaxing for so long, none of us moms are giving passive immunity to our babies any more. Troubleshoot that theory from every angle and it just seems to really be the case.

So what to do?
How unreasonable is it really to quarantine people with measles?

Quarantining people for what used to be a childhood disease is creepy, but still...
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#7 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 11:23 AM
 
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In this case I suspect that, unfortunately, they are perfectly right to be reacting this way. Millions of adults have no resistence to measles, due to vaccination, ditto infants. The best time to catch measles and end up with life long immunity is between 2 and 10, but for everyone outside that window it is a very dangerous disease. And even for children, if the people taking care of them don't know how to treat measles, it can be very dangerous.

Sad situation.
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#8 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 11:26 AM
 
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Yeah Mamakay.

The only way out, besides vaxing forever, is to have measles camps. Children in the right age groups would go off to a special camp, catch measles, get nursed through it by experts who know how to manage the disease, and then go home when they aren't infectious anymore.

Not likely.
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#9 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 11:28 AM
 
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I should clarify ~ what I was meaning is that it is sad that we have measles to a place where it is so dangerous because there are so many out there that are sitting ducks. I do think that in the future CP will be the same because there will be an entire adult population without immunity obtained by having the wild virus and when outbreaks occur they will be at risk.

I think this is one of those reasons why vaxes for these diseases are so dangerous...shifts the group of those not immune to a more dangerous place.

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#10 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 11:30 AM
 
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Part of the problem is also that Merck appears to be flat-out lying about the effectiveness of their live vaccines, too. Over the past few years, they've had to drop 20% off the varicella vax's effectiveness...30% off mumps...
And luckily...those are not really horrible viruses that are going to kill lots of people. So we can have epidemics of them and it's really not a big deal.

But if they're lying about measles, too...and there's no reason to think they're not given their track record...then every year our population immunity is dropping and measles will take off again.

Of course, like with mumps...they'll blame the 1% of non-vaxers and ignore the 30% discrepancy in the effectiveness of the vaccine.
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#11 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 11:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lokidoki View Post
I should clarify ~ what I was meaning is that it is sad that we have measles to a place where it is so dangerous because there are so many out there that are sitting ducks. I do think that in the future CP will be the same because there will be an entire adult population without immunity obtained by having the wild virus and when outbreaks occur they will be at risk.

I think this is one of those reasons why vaxes for these diseases are so dangerous...shifts the group of those not immune to a more dangerous place.
I don't *think* chickenpox will ever do this. As it stands, unless there are invisible antibodies floating around that no one's discovered yet or something (not likely, but hey) even in areas with endemic chickenpox, babies lose passive immunty by 3 months. With measles, some studies have found that babies can still have passive immunity at 9 months or a year. (IF the mom lives in an area with endemic measles, and has been "boosted" herself by exposure to the virus for years).

So chickenpox must really not be that bad in babies? I dunno.

It would be bad in adults, but I just don't care so much about them. Sorry. They can all get Varivaxed and Zostavaxed yearly if they want as far as I care.
And I think the whole "vax the babies (since we've got em'!) to protect adults from diseases adults could just vax themselves for" idea is wacky.
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#12 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 11:44 AM
 
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You think Merck lies? Whatever has made you such a cynic, MK? I bet you don't trust the CDC, either.
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#13 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 11:48 AM
 
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It would be bad in adults, but I just don't care so much about them. Sorry. They can all get Varivaxed and Zostavaxed yearly if they want as far as I care.
And I think the whole "vax the babies (since we've got em'!) to protect adults from diseases adults could just vax themselves for" idea is wacky.
There are a number of wacky ideas about vaxing floating around. I think that one got started with the pertussis vax, which was too "dangerous" for anyone over seven, so they vaxed the babies. And once vaxing babies got established as the right approach, thoughtful consideration of each disease and each vax and safety and appropriateness and other boring ideas like that just got...overlooked. Forgotten.

My sense is that the entire vaxing enterprise sits on a base of extreme irrationality. If they start actually, really, carefully, THINKING, everything will come unraveled.: And then the powers that be will be publicly revealed as idiots.

The great wizard of oz behind his curtain comes to mind.
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#14 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:08 PM
 
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You think Merck lies? Whatever has made you such a cynic, MK? I bet you don't trust the CDC, either.

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#15 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:18 PM
 
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There are a number of wacky ideas about vaxing floating around. I think that one got started with the pertussis vax, which was too "dangerous" for anyone over seven, so they vaxed the babies.
Yeah...that one worked out great, didn't it?

So now we're vaxing the adults to protect the babies.
Maybe. If it works like that.

Exactly how hard would it be to find out if vaxing for pertussis really prevents transmission???

I can't believe they're pushing this idea on people before estabishing if the theory is even sound first!



"Vax yourself so you don't kill your kid"
unless it really doesn't work like that. In which case...haha...we got your money anyway, suckah!

Actual Adacel Ad:
http://www.vaccineplace.com/index.cf...E&P=HowS_pread

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Pertussis transmission at home
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have done research to determine how an infant gets pertussis. Researchers interviewed 616 families that included an infant with a reported case of pertussis. They were looking for the source of pertussis, meaning a person with a severe cough who had been in contact with the sick infant 7 to 20 days before the infant’s cough started. For more than half of the infant cases the source was not found, but the source was found or suspected for 264 infants. For these infants for whom the source was found or suspected, a mother was the source in one third of these infant cases. A family member was the source in three quarters of these infant cases
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* It is unknown whether immunizing adolescents and adults against pertussis will reduce the risk of transmission to infants
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#16 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:23 PM
 
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Yeah...that one worked out great, didn't it?

So now we're vaxing the adults to protect the babies.
Maybe. If it works like that.

Exactly how hard would it be to find out vaxing for pertussis really prevents transmission???

I can't believe they're pushing this idea on people before estabishing if the theory is even sound first!



"Vax yourself so you don't kill your kid"
unless it really doesn't work like that. In which case...haha...we got your money anyway, suckah!

Actual Adacel Ad:
http://www.vaccineplace.com/index.cf...E&P=HowS_pread
Vaxing is Science. You don't need to prove that a scientific theory is sound before you push it, do you? Or did I miss something in my dumbed down science classes...:

Went and checked out the ad. Wow. So they say they don't know if this is going to work, right there in the ad. Darn. I was going to rush out and get the vax, because I do see little babies at the library and I'd love to be able to protect them from pertussis...but if it doesn't work? Why bother?
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#17 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:34 PM
 
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That just blows my mind that they can do this.
The CDC is making mamas feel like they're going to kill their kid if they don't buy this product....and no one has bothered to find out if this whole thing even works right!
Nobody made the company find out if this vaccine will do the one thing it's being marketed for!
Not a shred of evidence required in advance!
That is just so insane to me....I mean, medical science can be goofy...but this is just...outstandingly...I don't even know...wrong?
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#18 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:37 PM
 
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Have you ever seen a vax ad before that had to come with a "Technically, this might not work AT ALL" disclaimer?

Wow.
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#19 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:38 PM
 
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Well, I think I do sort of understand the reasoning.

1) Vaxing is safe.
2) It might work.
3) If it does work it will save the lives of babies, which is good.
4) If it doesn't work it won't do any harm.

Number one is a problem, because I'm sure some adults and teens will have reactions to this vax. And that means that number four isn't true, either.

And once people are vaxed, they may assume that they can't spread pertussis and they'll go around spreading it even more, which will mean that number three won't happen either.

But there is at least some sort of reasoning involved, defective, yes, but you can't say they didn't have something going on in their sweet little minds.

Wouldn't it be lovely if someone from the CDC was reading this thread?
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#20 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Have you ever seen a vax ad before that had to come with a "Technically, this might not work AT ALL" disclaimer?

Wow.
No, but I don't read a lot of vax ads. No TV so I don't get to watch them, either.

One issue of Shape magazine (not working, my shape is worse than ever) had a whole slew of vax articles and ads, though. I almost wrote them a nasty letter about the way they were pushing stuff without doing the research. But I don't write letters much, either.
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#21 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:43 PM
 
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I don't *think* chickenpox will ever do this. As it stands, unless there are invisible antibodies floating around that no one's discovered yet or something (not likely, but hey) even in areas with endemic chickenpox, babies lose passive immunty by 3 months. With measles, some studies have found that babies can still have passive immunity at 9 months or a year. (IF the mom lives in an area with endemic measles, and has been "boosted" herself by exposure to the virus for years).

So chickenpox must really not be that bad in babies? I dunno.

It would be bad in adults, but I just don't care so much about them. Sorry. They can all get Varivaxed and Zostavaxed yearly if they want as far as I care.
And I think the whole "vax the babies (since we've got em'!) to protect adults from diseases adults could just vax themselves for" idea is wacky.
But see ~ did anyone really predict this would be the outcome with the measles thing either? Also, are the babies having passive immunity because their mothers had CP? If so, then what about babies born to mothers who have not had CP ~ aren't they at risk?

At any rate, I think as we all agree ~ a great percentage of this so called science is guess work at best and there isn't any big promise that these vaxes will ultimately make us safer from disease and if anything are doing just the direct opposite and positioning these childhood diseases on the most vunerable...rather than protecting them.

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#22 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:43 PM
 
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Wanted to add:

Does the adult version of the pertussis vax contain thimerosal? Are they recommending it to pregnant women and breastfeeding mothers? In that case we are talking not just stupid, but criminal.
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#23 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Well, I think I do sort of understand the reasoning.

1) Vaxing is safe.
2) It might work.
3) If it does work it will save the lives of babies, which is good.
4) If it doesn't work it won't do any harm.

Number one is a problem, because I'm sure some adults and teens will have reactions to this vax. And that means that number four isn't true, either.

And once people are vaxed, they may assume that they can't spread pertussis and they'll go around spreading it even more, which will mean that number three won't happen either.

But there is at least some sort of reasoning involved, defective, yes, but you can't say they didn't have something going on in their sweet little minds.

Wouldn't it be lovely if someone from the CDC was reading this thread?

Yeah...I know...but how hard would it really be to...like...do a friggin study...first?

Is pertussis in infants so rare that no clinical trial would reach statistical significance? This should not be rocket science to figure out if vaxing the parents protects the infants. It would be a relatively simple scientific study.
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#24 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 12:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Wanted to add:

Does the adult version of the pertussis vax contain thimerosal? Are they recommending it to pregnant women and breastfeeding mothers? In that case we are talking not just stupid, but criminal.

The CDC is sort of speaking out of both sides of their mouths on pregnant and nursing women.
The vaccine is "pregnancy catagory C"...which is "bad".
The CDC is not technically recommending it...but is saying "pregnancy and breastfeeding are not contraindications for vaccination".

So there's a pharma registry set up, and OBs who give the vax to pregnant women are supposed to call the pharma hotline for pharma to collect information on how safe it is when given to pregnant women.

So then, once pharma hands that data to the CDC, THEN the CDC will be able to out-right recommend it.
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But if we were to just halt measles vaccination...we really honestly could have up to 4,000 measles deaths a year for who knows how long before infants started being born with more passive immunity again. I can't honestly say "Oh...4,000 baby funerals a year...no big deal". If anyone wants to explain to me how there's a way out of that, please do. Or if you don't think that's the unnatural situation we're in, tell me how it's not the case. Coz I look at the 1991 measles outbreak data and it's just unreal how high the case/fatality ratio was. And even Paul Offit and Arthur Allen say it's because we've been vaxing for so long, none of us moms are giving passive immunity to our babies any more. Troubleshoot that theory from every angle and it just seems to really be the case.

So what to do?
How unreasonable is it really to quarantine people with measles?

Quarantining people for what used to be a childhood disease is creepy, but still...
mamakay, I just don't get your fear of measles. I grew up in the UK before the measles vaccination was used and everyone got it, it was inconvenient, you didn't feel great for a week, but you got over it and that was the end. There was no fear of the disease. Yes, you did hear of children dying of measles, but it was extremely rare. Where do you get a projected 4,000 measles deaths from? Offit is most certainly a fear-mongerer it's how he sells his products. I think forced quarantine for those with measles is totally unreasonable personally. Voluntary seculsion is acceptable if you are around fearful people or if they are aren't prepared to treat if "properly". Personally, I couldn't give a hoot if my children were exposed to measles. "Bring it on".....

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#26 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 01:56 PM
 
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You know how people type LOL and you wonder if they were really laughin? Well I am! Kind of one of those "if I don't laugh I will cry" kind of things. The whole thing just blows my mind.


"Vax yourself so you don't kill your kid"
unless it really doesn't work like that. In which case...haha...we got your money anyway, suckah!


Deborah--Just curious why you think 2-10 would be the best ages to get measles? (I have a lil guy approaching 2 and a hubby that will prolly catch the story about the measles at the little league games)
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#27 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 04:32 PM
 
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Has anyone had expereince with these situations? I have vaccinated my kids up to now, they are 9 and 11. I don't want to continue with chicken pox, or have to get the AIDS vac when they require it, or the vaginal pox, etc. What do you all advise?
Patti
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#28 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 04:43 PM
 
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Holding people against their will to "quarantine" them... for the measles?? HOW PATHETIC!!!

That's just insane... I must go cry now. :
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#29 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 04:47 PM
 
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Measles is a normal childhood illness that would grant lifelong immunity to the person who caught it. Complications are usually from improper care of the ill person and from catching it after childhood...which getting vaxed ensures. Vaxing doesn't work, nature always prevails.
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#30 of 42 Old 08-19-2007, 05:04 PM
 
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mamakay, I just don't get your fear of measles. I grew up in the UK before the measles vaccination was used and everyone got it, it was inconvenient, you didn't feel great for a week, but you got over it and that was the end. There was no fear of the disease. Yes, you did hear of children dying of measles, but it was extremely rare. Where do you get a projected 4,000 measles deaths from? Offit is most certainly a fear-mongerer it's how he sells his products. I think forced quarantine for those with measles is totally unreasonable personally. Voluntary seculsion is acceptable if you are around fearful people or if they are aren't prepared to treat if "properly". Personally, I couldn't give a hoot if my children were exposed to measles. "Bring it on".....
I'm not worried about my own kid, either. It's infants who are probably responsible for measles deaths in the post vaccine era. Everything is different now than it was before the vax.

Just look at the big outbreak we had in the US in 1991. Measles was over 10 times as deadly as it even was before the vax.
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