What sources did you use to make your decision - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 18 Old 07-27-2003, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm just curious. I was having a discussion with an aquaintance today, who is not a mother and the issue of vaccination came up. She thought I was horrible for vaccinating. I explained that I did alot of pro- and anti-research and made an educated decision. I also personally know one of the world's leading pediatric infectious disease/vaccine experts and have had many chances to speak with him. Many anti-vax people probably think he is just pushing an agenda, but I know he is passionate about children's health first and foremost.

My question is, what sources have you used to make your decisions regarding vaccination? I'm not trying to start an argument here, I'm just curious.

I would post the site of the physician I know, but I don't want to get into an argument about the validity of info. I just want to check out other sites for myself.
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#2 of 18 Old 07-27-2003, 08:26 PM
 
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I used resources from www.wysong.net - it's a company that sells the best possible pet food and ALSO food suplements for people. Dr.Wysong is very wise man and I really respect him. They keep sending out newsletter every week or so and there is always some info on vaccinations......This it the last one for example:
(Dr. W.) The premise of vaccines is a good one: modify an infective agent (bacteria, virus) in the laboratory so it is no longer virulent (disease-producing) without destroying its antigenic characteristics (immune-stimulating). When administered, a vaccine will theoretically not produce the disease but will create immunity to it.
The approach is similar to that used in homeopathy whereby the toxin responsible for the disease condition is diluted and administered to stimulate the body to fight the disease. Like fighting like.
But, as always, there are slips between the theory and practice of vaccines. For one thing, because large, not homeopathically small, doses of modified infective agents are in vaccines, the immune system can be taxed. Give several different vaccines and repeat them periodically and the immune system can be exhausted. The immune system has finite, not infinite capacity. The net result can be increased vulnerability to cancer, autoimmunities and other infective agents.
There is also the problem of route of administration. The normal point of entry for disease agents is across oral, digestive or respiratory mucous membranes. The contact is usually a small number of organisms, maybe even one. But vaccines are commonly given by injection, bypassing several layers of important immune-stimulating, mucous membrane signaling-mechanisms. And vaccines can contain tens of thousands of agents.
Some vaccines are modified, but living. Who is to say what such living creatures do over time when injected into the body in enormous quantities? Viruses are very clever and capable of remarkable change and adaptation. I'm not sure I like the idea of these guys floating around in my body trying to decide how best to attack me. When we take such vaccines, we are volunteering for an experiment.
I will not go into a litany here of all the proven dangers of vaccines or enumeration of tragic results. This has been done elsewhere (see Further Reading, below).
But here are a couple of new problems. Some vaccines contain high levels of thimerosal mercury. Mercury is a potent toxin and its level in some vaccines exceeds Federal Safety Guidelines. Problems linked to thimerosal include autism and speech disorders, as well as heart disease. (J Am Physicians Surgeons, 2003; 8(1):6-11.)
A new vaccine is being developed for Alzheimer’s based upon the theory that increased brain plaque is the cause of the disease. However, plaque is not the likely cause, but a symptom (similar to high cholesterol in atherosclerosis), and initial trials caused 6% of the participants to suffer from severe brain swelling. (Nature, March 17, 2003.)
In the recent effort to prepare the population for bioterrorism, almost 26,000 people were vaccinated with small pox. So far, seven cases of cardiac problems and ten cases of myopericarditis have been associated with the vaccine. Although this temporal association is being downplayed (like smoking being associated with respiratory disease), it is reason for caution. Additionally, the smallpox vaccine is known to cause hypercoagulability, a condition particularly threatening to those with vessel narrowing atherosclerosis.
Some researchers believe that the vaccine virus (along with a host of other pathogens) has the capability of adhering to the endothelium (lining) of blood vessels. These nodules stimulate an inflammatory response resulting in platelet adhesion, thrombin release and fibrin formation. When this occurs, the vessel is narrowed depriving distal tissue from oxygen and creating the ideal anaerobic environment for proliferation of pathogens, neoplasia and sclerotic plaque. (MMWR, 2003; 52(12):248-50.)
Vaccine mania is caused by misinformation, fear and profit motives. If you believe we have been saved thus far by vaccines for polio, diphtheria and the like, please think again after reviewing the decline of these diseases related to when the vaccines were introduced (see "SARS, Some Perspective").
If you or your children are under pressure to take a vaccine, get fully informed. The safest vaccine would be one that is killed (trusting that has really happened) and is given by the same route (oral or aerosol) that the street agent would use to attack.
Vaccines will never be the saviors of humankind. Humankind will be the savior of themselves by learning how to properly care for their own health and doing it. http://www.wysong.net/healthletter/hl_sep94.shtml


That is enough for me not to vaccinate my child.
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#3 of 18 Old 07-27-2003, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you. That's interesting. But as I said to my acquaitance, in my opinion alot of the anti-vax info has come from sources who have not had training in immonology and/or infectious diseases. I have seen sources who are M.D.'s but have not seen their CV info that tells me where they did their fellowship in immunology/infectious diseases. I was not able to find Dr. Wysong's educational bio on the web, and that's important to me when making decisions that affect my family's health and well-being.

The expert I know, DOES NOT advocate mass small pox vaccination and even said so on 60 Minutes.
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#4 of 18 Old 07-27-2003, 08:58 PM
 
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I do not care about titles and diplomas.......I trust my own intuition and common sense. My sister's husband is FAMOUS docotor and university profesor - epidemiologist - he is specialised at vaccinations and diseas prevention. They just moved to Nepal to do reasarch on SARS. They have two kids who are constantly SICK!!! ALL THE TIME!! That speaks for itself.
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#5 of 18 Old 07-27-2003, 09:00 PM
 
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One of the most compelling facts that I've seen about vaxes is that they are not subject to the gold standard of scientific/medical research: the double-blind placebo controlled randomized study. I don't need an MD or specialized training in immunology/infectious diseases to know that the pro-vax side is pushing vaxes when they don't have good data to demonstrate that vaxes are safe and effective. I wonder how your doctor friend explains that?

If you do a search on these boards and read through some threads, I'm sure you'll come up with a lot of links as well as book recommendations. They've been posted multiple times.

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#6 of 18 Old 07-27-2003, 09:07 PM
 
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#7 of 18 Old 07-27-2003, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I apologize if I made it seem like I was trying to start something. I really was not. That's one of the reasons I hate e-mail and the computer, you can't hear the tone I would ask the question in. The conversation I had today just really got stuck in my craw, when someone who isn't a parent was vehemently questioning my judgement. I am sure others here have been in the same situation, just from the other angle.

I am the kind of person who needs lots of facts and need to know their source before I make decisions. That's all I was asking. I apologize if I offended anyone. I fully support everyone's right to make their choices for themselves and their families, even if I don't agree.
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#8 of 18 Old 07-28-2003, 04:54 PM
 
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I read a lot of books and links and various sources. if you go up to resources you will see a link to my "other list" which indicates the ones I used.


but really, I looked in my world which includes co-workers, family friends, friends of my own, siblings of friends.
And well it is just 'my' world.

there are 9 children with autism and one child who is 8 with the mind of 1 year. She was perfectly fine until the DPT shot.
A very, very sad situation.

anyway, these 9 children are all over the autism spectrum but many of them are severe. they would have been diagnosed autistic in 1961, 1971, 1981 1991..etc. it is not because of 'better' diagnosis. Think Rain Man.

22 shots by the time a child is 2 was not comforting to me.
but again, maybe your world is different.

good luck on your research and your decisions. follow your gut.

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#9 of 18 Old 07-28-2003, 05:31 PM
 
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Greymom, well, I actually made TWO decisions, lol! The first was to go ahead and vaccinate my firstborn at 2.5 mths old. That one, I based largely on mainstream media articles and reports. I had been wanting to look into the issue more, but allowed fear of diseases (which was the underlying thread in such media stories) to sway me toward a "just in case/in the meantime" vaccination visit.
He experienced what was then (1992) classified as a "severe" reaction to the pertussis vaccine (I assume, based on the nature of the reaction and the literature, though he recieved several vaccinations that day). The very same reaction has since been downgraded to "moderately severe", though I can locate no emphirical data to support that reclassification. Seems to have been a move to reduce the number of children for whom further vaccination was contraindicated, based on little if any indication that their risks had changed.
High-pitched screaming, "stiffening and staring" (siezures), episodes un "collapse"/unresponsiveness, for several hours and beginning within 15 min. of his injections. HUGE swelling and irritation at the injection site which persisted for weeks and affected his crawling mths later.

My SECOND decision was to never vaccinate my child(ren) again. It was based on the research I did after his reaction.
The product inserts were my first source, and from them I learned the actual nature of the symptoms I had witnessed. I was shocked to discover that his reaction was presumed to indicate "Central Nervous System irritation" and/or damge, and that he had not just been "fussy", but convulsing and suffering extreme pain. Also that his reaction was considered an "absolute contraindication to further" vaccination with the product. Gee, the nurses I spoke with on the phone never mentioned any of that; only said to give him Tylenol and not to worry!

My next source was the collection of medical journals at my library. From them I learned that such severe reactions were, while not common, not exactly rare either. I also learned a great deal about all aspects of vaccines and the research on them (and lack thereof!).

Yes, I also consulted books, articles, and eventually, yrs later, web sites with a bias against vaccination. (though many of them I would consider less "biased against" than simply "NOT biased in favor of", as so much of the mainstream material was/is.)
I learned to read between the lines and glean the pertinent info and take the editorializing with a grain of salt, in both medical journals/industry materials AND "anti-vax" materials.
I read reports of other parents whose child(ren) had reacted as mine had, some of whom ended up dead or damaged for life following their first reaction or after further shots.
I read interviews with highly creditialed researchers and physicians who expresed serious doubts about vaccination and its known and potential effects on the immune system/body in general/epidemiology of diseases.
I became familiar with the mantra of "vaccines are not proven to cause" such and such (and to appreciate the double meaning of, "vaccines are not proven NOT to cause" such and such either! )
I realized how little meaningful research/data on the subject of known and potential adverse events is actually out there.
In addition, I read everything I could find on the subject, which meant most of what I read was mainstream and decidedly "pro-vax" in nature. I considered both perspectives.

I most likely would have never come to know any of this had my child not reacteed as he did; I would likely be just another parent who vaccinated without questioning what the mainstream told me.
Nor would I have come to know that my children are perfectly healthy WITHOUT vaccination; I would have assumed their health was DUE to it!
Neither of these opinions is meant as a slam to parents who vaccinate; just as an acknowledgment of how close we really are to one another! Many who vaccinate would probably be in the non-vax camp if their child had reacted as mine had and if they had gone on to research with the focus I did. (I was looking into adverse events both known and possible at the time, not the more positve aspects! After his reaction, I was understandably less concerned with possible diseases than with possible vaccine harm!)

Bottom line, we are all passionate about our childrens' well being and do what we honestly conclude to be best for them. Same for professionals and experts; there are many who advocate vaccination and others who do not, both share an honest concern for the world, imo and base their positions on significant information. Both are worth listening to when reaching a decision.


Anyway, it's a fair question, imo. The "anti anti" myth out there is that those who choose not to vaccinate are ignorant, uneducated, ill-informed, base our decisions on "junk science" and "fear", and as a result, should not be allowed to make a choice.
IME, that is not true of the majority of non-vaxers. And ftm, I could point out that a majority (NOT all, but MOST, imo) of parents who "choose" to vaccinate do so out of fear, in ignorance, and otherwise base their decision on extremely biased and incomplete information, IF they even bother to think about it at all, of course. I know *I* did.

Kimberly, mom to Forest, 11 and Lily, 3
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#10 of 18 Old 07-28-2003, 05:45 PM
 
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Most of the info I rely on comes directly from vaccine manufacturers, peer-reviewed medical/scientific journals, the FDA & the CDC.

Hmmmm....world's leading "vaccine expert" in PA....should we have a contest to see who can guess first??? I guess he who holds rotavirus patent & receives paychecks from Merck & other pharma to teach docs vaxes are safe.
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#11 of 18 Old 07-28-2003, 05:58 PM
 
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I can not recall who it was but I've heard that some big animal who manufactures vaccinations was asked if he had his kids vaccinated and his answer was: Are you crazy?!! Never! :
Does NOT surprise me at all.............
It's like that with most doctors - they would never take antibiotics unless it's really neccesary or any other drugs in that matter.........they know why!
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#12 of 18 Old 07-28-2003, 05:59 PM
 
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Oh you're naughty Amnesiac.
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#13 of 18 Old 07-28-2003, 06:03 PM
 
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OKay, I posted a very long and detailed reply just a few min. ago, and not sure if it will be posted (it SAID it would be! so I deleted the document on my computer.)
If not, I will just say that I made 2 decisions; the first TO vaccinate my son at 2.5 mths old(based on fear and the very biased info in the mainstream media which was all pro-vax/disease oriented), the second NOT to vaccinate again after he experienced a serious reaction. (based on his experience, product inserts, medical journals, interviews with researchers/experts who expressed reservations about vaccinations and their known as suspected effects, mainstream as well as alternative books, articles, etc.)

I consider myself FAR more informed the second time that the first.

(Gee, my first post was much better! Hope it gets posted, lol!)

Kimberly, mom to Forest, 11 and Lily, 3
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#14 of 18 Old 07-28-2003, 06:08 PM
 
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LOL! Okay, so my original reply DID get posted! sigh...one of those days As Rosanna RosannaDana would say, "nevermind."
Kimberly
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#15 of 18 Old 07-29-2003, 01:15 AM
 
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maybe aidensmama will come by and post, greymama.
She might be simpatico to your concerns.

there are all types on this forum.

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#16 of 18 Old 07-29-2003, 02:49 PM
 
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"My question is, what sources have you used to make your decisions regarding vaccination? I'm not trying to start an argument here, I'm just curious. "

Info from 2 vaccine researchers ( each w/25+ years experience)

One on one conversation with an immunologist (40+ years experience)

Info from a pediatric neurologist

and last but not least, and certainly the most important in my final decisions,

watching my 7.5 month old son deteriorate after his 3rd round of "routine" vaccinations, that included the first of a series (that wasn't completed) of the Hep B vaccine. The immunologist I spoke with told me he had no doubt the vaccines harmed my son, he also said he's been "warning them for years about the mercury and ALUMINUM in vaccines".
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#17 of 18 Old 07-29-2003, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Hilary and everyone. Thanks for responding. I honestly wouldn't consider myself pro or anti-vaccination (I really don't consider my self pro- or anti-anything... I try to make decisions based on each individual situation.)

I have looked at the archives, but there is sooooo much info on both sides out there, I was hoping people could give me specific sources they used to make their decision. Will I change my mind, maybe, maybe not, but that doesn't mean I am not very intersted in what the other side is saying and I believe it never hurts to have as much info as possible.

I admit that I have read enough that when my son has gotten his vaxs so far, I have prayed that he wouldn't be a case I have read about. So you see, I have some of the same fears as other moms here, maybe I'm just not strong to act upon them. I hope that answers your question.

And yes amnesiac, it is that same physician, which is why I didn't post his name. I know his involvement in vaccine development and relationship with Merck, but I also know that underneath that, he really cares about kids. Of cource that's just my opinion and I respect the fact that we may disagree on that point
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#18 of 18 Old 07-30-2003, 03:46 AM
 
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Show Us the Science
http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html...eport105.shtml
Quote:
Thirty distinguished scientists from the US, Canada, and Europe, including

immunologists,

molecular and cell biologists,

epidemiologists,

gastroenterologists,

pediatric neurologists,

microbiologists,

and internal medicine specialists,

presented and discussed the biological mechanisms and possible high-risk factors for adverse responses to vaccination. The conference drew nearly 500 representatives from 37 states, Puerto Rico, Canada, England, Ireland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, and Australia
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