My sweet DD is 5 months old. I start full-time work in 2 weeks and she will start full time daycare at that time, in an infant room with 11 other little ones. I want her to be safe and healthy. I am scared of doing the wrong thing. I am scared of not doing the right thing. I've read Cave's book and Aviva Jill Romm's book. I've talked with my (relatively) open-minded FP who has agreed to support us in delaying or selectively vaxing.
It seems however that with the daycare piece, everyone recommends HiB. So, I think we're going to do it. I'm just too afraid that she would be exposed and I wouldn't be present enough or "good" enough to catch the signs if she got menengitis (which I can't even spell, let alone notice).
How do I do this the right way? DD is exclusively BFd. She has a history of eczema and had persistent/severe cradle cap for months. I have an auto-immune disorder. I have been taking probiotics for several months. Should I add cod liver oil? Should I give CLO to DD? Should I give her probiotics or sodium ascorbate? Is it safe to give these directly to an infant? How do I know the correct dosage? How long should I do it before the vax? How long after the vax? Does anyone know anything about that "Anti-tox vaccines" advertised in Mothering?
I want to vax soon as I know she can be increasingly suceptible to HiB for a couple weeks post-vax and I don't want to give it to just as she starts daycare when she will have the added stress of a major life change, sleep adjustments, etc. I could put it off until she's adjusted to daycare in a couple of months, but I'm afraid she'd be vulnerable during that time (still stressed, still swapping germies with the wee ones, and at peak age for HiB)
WAAAHHHH!!! What do I do? I am literally beside myself, and even from that perspective I don't know the answer!
Hilary? amnesiac? wise Mamas and Papas, please please please help!!!!
but there have been no reported cases of hib in my county. for at least a couple years.
I live in los angeles county. It has ten million people.
if it would help..... tell me your county and I'll see what I can find.
and also I don't know if it matters but I decided that I would not give hib shot.. in the event he had to go into daycare (we weren't sure who was going to work, dh or me...long story) we still weren't going to do it.
I know it is all so scary. Taek a deep breath.
oh, one other thing... here is my cheat sheet... I think I may have given it to you before...although, I'm a bit overwhelmed today so I may be confusing you with another mom.
The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it. We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.
I wanted to post to let you know that I feel for you and will keep you in my thoughts. That's the best I have to offer just now.
Look at it, see if your state is on here, and look up the statistics to see how many cases of meningitis or Hib have been reported. If there's a very small number, maybe that might make you feel better about the chance of your daughter developing meningitis.
If your state isn't on here, I'll be happy to look it up for you.
Have you looked in the archived threads on Hib and Prevnar in this forum? There is a lot of really good information on Hib and pnuemonia, especially in the prevnar forum.
Hope this helps.
Try not to panic. Read as much as you can, maybe by starting in those archived forums, and take it from there. The more you know, the more you can understand.
The cases of Hib have supposedly dropped rapidly every year, as has pnuemonia. For both, I think the last reported year (2001) was about 60 cases or so and this is the whole state.
When you figure there's 3 million plus, just in the Chicago land area alone, 50-60 cases is a drop in the bucket.
As far as I know the Hib shot has been used widely in the last 10 years or so. Look back at the other statistics, from ten years ago. I still don't think the amounts of reported cases even reached over 300. Again, a very small number.
You are going to have to do what you need to do to give yourself peace of mind, but I hope these statistics can help at least calm you a little.
Just so you know.. Hylands makes vitamin c tablet.. for children..that are made with sodium ascorbate.. each tablet contains 25 mg of vit c... they disslove under the tongue .
I really don't agree with the other posters who feel that hib is not a risk because people don't get it anymore...Hib is not one of those diseases like polio or measles.
Hib is a bacteria that is present in ALL people-adults and older children are not bothered by it because their immune systems are stronger and their bodies have accepted the bacteria.
In babies, hib can be very serious. before the Hib vaccine 20,000 babies got hib every yr-now the number is something like 200.
If I am wrong in my thinking please correct me, but in my opinion, Hib is one of the vaccines that makes sense to me-especially in a daycare situation with so many babies and adults.
"When you're giving a probiotic, it is important to not just give L. acidophilus. Look for a blend of microorganisms and children really need something with Bifidobacteria. I personally have used the powedered blends made by both Jarrow Formulas and Natures Way for my kids. Also of interest to you, aside from simply replacing flora, would be the article in the hib thread below demonstrating that drinking probiotic bacteria actually inhibits colonization of the respiratory tract by potentially pathogenic bacteria such as hib & Strep pneumo."
I am still looking for the hib thread that is referred.....so there are other ways to prevent Hib......
I definitely appreciate Acugirl's point of view on hib. My only note is that I saw the high water mark as 20,000 cases too. The only difference is that I saw it as 'incidents' not necessarily in babies.
I think it might include children which might sound moot difference but with every month the child ages the serious repurcussions of meningitis lessens...at least that is all my understanding.
for me I was kind of creeped out when I started reading some stuff on it... In The Vaccine Guide by Randall Neustaedter and Neil ******'s book "vaccines are they really safe & effective?" both authors discuss that children are at higher risk of getting hib disease following their vaccination.
and they bring up the links to diabetes from the vax.
this thread might be helpful:
And like Acugirl indicated, and in cave's book she does indicate:
"Not everyone who has h. influenzae bacteria gets menigngitis. In fact, up to 90 percent of healthy people harbor the bacteria in their respiartory tract, where it lies dormant for their entire lives."
Hib is a hard one to decide on...been there..it's hard...
take a deep breath and follow your gut. At the end of the day the only thing we have is our guts...imo
good luck on your researching.
If you're not SURE, my advise would be to wait longer....... I waited, and I'm still waiting but I'm alot happier and my son is just perfect the way he is.
I'm curious about the introduction of solids... I need to do more research, but is rice cereal considered a grain? I just introduced this two weeks ago but I'm trying not to let it take the place of bf'ing.
Your post empowers me -- to think more clearly and to make sure I'm getting to the root of the issues. It hadn't occured to me that my dd might not be at risk for catching some diseases. Our (no longer in my employment) ped insists that bf'ing is NOT sufficient and that vaxes boost the immune system. She also tried to use fear to sway my mind.
I was thinking of this decision as a process of weighing scary riskes against scary risks. (if that makes any sense?)
And now I will think of it as a process of uncovering the truth and learning how to keep my dd healthy naturally. Thank you again!
Mamato2, I can totally relate to what you're going through. This is a very hard decision! I am lucky that I don't have to worry about child care -- at least for now. My dd also has eczema and had horrible cradle cap. My mom, who has lots of kids, said it was the worst case she's ever seen. It took forever to go away.
amnesiac ~ thank you for your advice on this!
Good luck Mamato2!
Part of the problem is that (of course) my FP thinks we should have a vax plan and our day care wants a letter indicating what that plan will be, and I don't have a plan other than my maternal instinct and a desire to just hold her close, BF her forever, and protect her from the world (and I don't think they'll accept that letter). I have searched at length for a great alternative, open minded (possbly non vaxing-gasp) ped but I can't find one.
More questions, some answers.....
My medical history: I have fibromyalgia. Have for a long time. I was tested (several times) for Lyme's disease, r. arthritis, MS, lupus, had nutritional analyses (stool) etc. All negative, so once again, they settled on fibro. My Mom has it too. I also have allergies to grass, pollen, cats, dust, and bees. Both of my sibs are lactose intolerant. Incidently, since copper was mentioned, I did have an apparent reaction (erethema nodosum-red bumps on my leg) to what we believe to have been either copper or zinc (how odd).
Hilary-when you say late introduction of solids, how late would you suggest? I understand the "no grains sand molars" guideline (and approx. when do molars appear? I have no idea), but when would you suggest introducing other foods (and would these foods be strictly fruits/veggies? When would you suggest adding meats/dairy?) With delayed solids, should I be supplementing her iron? If so, how? And how do I know how much (this scares me, since iron overdose id fatal in young children)? My FP is already on my case about her having an increased need for vit. C and iron which my breast milk “can’t” meet. Anything else I should supplement if solids are delayed? While on the subject, if delayed introduction of solids are important so as not to disrupt flora in the gut or increase the likelihood of allergies/immune system problems, (why) don’t supplements added to BM skew this environment in some way anyway?
Yes, I can BF her until she's 2 (I'll need to bend DH's arm a bit for this one, but I am up for the challenge). How would this look (i.e. how many oz. of BM are needed daily to retain benefits)? I assume it's ok if it's expressed if need be.
I have not had her immune system tested, and I would not know what tests to ask for and/or if the doctor was interpreting them properly. Out of curiosity, why would a neuro workup be necessary?
For supplements: how much CLO should I give directly to her? Should I take it myself also (only?) so she gets it via BM, and if so how much? Does anyone have on hand the link to that merc-free CLO?
Probiotics: when you say trial and error for what I give to her, how do I have any idea if it’s too much/little? What do I look for? I’m currently taking the dosage directed on the bottle and I have no idea how much she gets via BM. The one I take contains 54 mg. of lactobacilius acidophilus, L. brevis, L. salivarius, L. helvericus, L. bulgaricus, and Bifidobacterium bifidum – and 200 mg. citrus pectin (3 billion microorganisms at time of manufacture). It also has whey powder, gelatin, lactose, glycerin, and vegetable magnesium sterate so I’m reluctant to give that directly to her I would think. Anyone have a better one to recommend for her? for me?
Vit C: You hit the nail on the head, how do I observe “runny stool” in a BFd babe”? It’s all runny. As far as getting it to her, when you say spreading it over waking hours, do you literally mean giving it to a conscious child, or just during daytime? I’ll likely be feeding her around 5am when I get up, then I plan to nurse her around 7:30 at daycare before I head out to work. I hope she’ll take 2 bottles there during the day, and then I’ll nurse her again around 4:30 before we start the commute home, and finally around 6:30-7 before she goes to bed (she also wakes to nurse around midnight). Should I divide it up around 7:30 am, 4:30 pm, and 7 pm? Should I put it in her bottled along with the BM I leave at day care? Once mixed with the milk, does it need to be consumed immediately (i.e. will day care need to do it?) , or can I do it ahead of time? Is it ok to be heated with the milk? Can anyone recommend a safe, powdered sodium ascorbate and a possible link to get it? That Bronson Labs link doesn’t find it with a search anymore.
I am afraid, without a doubt. I am a first-time mom, the only doctor who won’t throw me out of their office for not vaxing s 45 min. from my house so quick haunts to the dr. to check out a little something when DD is “off” are not easy. I’m sure I already seem like an “odd bird” to the daycare center for sending DD along with cloth dipes, no vax, and (gasp) no rice cereal or little jars of day-glow mushy food. I’m not sure how closely they’ll watch her or if they’ll just classify her as the “odd kid with the odd mom and take a hands off approach. Add to that, DD is entering the supposed “prime age” for HiB problems, and it just freaks me out!
Toy sanitizing: I did ask their policy of course, and of course they stated that toys get tossed in the “to be sanitized” bucket once they go in a child’s mouth. Of course, in practice I observed no less than 4 little ones gnawing on and then passing along the same ear of plastic corn. I even commented on it (“Gee, that corn sure must taste good, everyone seems to want to try it!”) and it was not put into any sanitizing bin.
Did I miss anything? I am not committed to doing it (obviously my inclination is not to do it, I just want a guarantee I won’t regret it later-ha!) How do people get over the fear? Meningitis is so frightening. I remember being vaxed for it as part of campus orientation in college since the university had experienced several ourbreaks (and deaths).
Hib is a sexually transmitted disease.
It is also transmitted by sharing dirty needles.
What the H*#@ is going on or happening at the day care center/nursery/NICU that all of the children need a vaccine for a disease that is sexually transmitted or transmitted by sharing needles?
How many babies have ever actually shown up with this kind of disease ever?
Maybe you should make other arrangements for your child.
|Originally posted by mamatoto2
How do people get over the fear? Meningitis is so frightening.
I'm a pretty freak out type of person whenever one of my kids gets sick, with anything. Even a cold.
What helps me is to look at it from a logical point of view, rather than just letting my emotions take over. If you read and understand what causes certain illnesses, and how to prevent them, it takes away a lot of the unknown.
Also, if you learn about overall nutrition, what you can do and feed your child to make sure the immune system is as helped as it can be, I think that also takes away some of the uncertainty.
Also, FP, GP and other doctors rely on the fear tactic to get parents to immunize. They'll say things like do you want your child to suffer and maybe even die, when you can prevent it by giving them this shot? What parent wants their child to suffer and die? It is a rough situation to be in.
I want to first state that meningitis can be very serious, so I am in no way saying that it isn't.
Having said that, a friend of mine got spinal meningitis when he was 18 months old. He was in a hole in the wall hosptial in very rural Alabama, as that's where his parents lived at the time, and all they could really do was wait.
He was still and quiet for 5 days, not moving at all. They kept him hydrated and comfortable, and waited. It could have gone either way.
On the sixth day, he woke up and started climbing the walls, eating, and being his usual self.
He had no permanent nuerological or spinal damage from it, and the next 6 weeks of his life he was on display as about 200 doctors from all over came to observe him, read his files and study whatever they needed to as he had a rare childhood disease, and they wanted to know as much as they could.
They couldn't figure out where he got it from, as no one else around him had developed anything, but he had it.
And he lived. If for some reason your bf child got hib that developed into meningitis, it's not an automatic death or damage sentence.
As for the day care, do you know anyone who does in home daycare? Could you maybe look into that? That way, your dd would be in a home, not as surrounded by as many kids.
And in that process the gene is "shot up" with anti-biotics, preservatives, and who knows what else. And then when ingested, the person receives all the complications that those "additives" present?
There is still soooo much to be learned about GMO's, but aren't soy allergies a recent phenomenon (last 10 years), as are GMO's?
Incidently, as blood work was mentioned earlier as well as iron deficiencies I suppose I should add that I bled severely following my DDs birth (2 hemorrhages over 3 days as a result of a retained placenta). In all I ended up being transfused with 6 units of blood and was severely anemic (hematocrit 12.7) and on megadoses of iron for 6 weeks post partum. Could that have anything to do with anything? Need I be worried about the "contents" of the blood I received or its impact on DD?
Hilary I presume all the research on milk you provided is for pasteurized milk. I "doubt" the same results would have been found with raw cows milk.
Some interesting raw milk research (sorry I can't provide links on line):
Pottinger proved that there is a deficiency disease similar to Vitamin C deficiency (scurvy) that can be cured by giving an endocrine product that contains no Vitamin C. He proved that raw cows milk naturally contains that endocrine nutrient and that pasteurized milk does not. He proved that raw milk reversed and prevented scurvy.
Stefannsson, an anthropologist working for the US government reported that an artic-sea captain who ingested high amounts of Vitamin C did not reverse his scurvy. After the captain ate raw meat for several days he completely healed. (Harper's Magazine, November/December 1925 & 1936)
It was reported in 1942 that grazing cows produced as much Vitamin C as does the entire citrus crop, and most of it is lost as the result of pasteurization. (Proc. Nat. Nut. Conf. for Defense, May 14, Federal Sea Agency, pp 176; US Government Patent Off. 1942)
A Dr A.F. Hess reported that milk-pasteurization was intended to prevent humans from getting diseases that cows sometimes develop was a waste. He further reported from his observations and tests that infants fed pasteurized milk easily developed common disease [don't have specifics]. He stated that deaths from those common diseases should have been attributed to the defective nature of pasteurized milk. (Hess, A.F., "Recent advances in knowledge of scurvy and the antiscorbutic vitamin," J.A.M.A., April 23, 1932)
Research by John Hopkins University and the University of Maryland found that raw milk contained 2 1/2 times more IgG enzyme than pasteurized milk. IgG enzyme inhibits rotavirus organisms that cause diarrhea in infants.
In 1923, the high infant death rate from gastroenteritis at St Vincent's hospital, Philadelphia was a major concern for Dr Paul B. Cassidy M.D. who recommended raw milk instead of pasteurized milk. Of course the raw milk critics panicked, predicting a catastrophic increase in infant deaths. The death rate in infants from gastroenteritis fell by 94% from a high of 89 in 1922 to less than five percent a year. (Annual Convention, Certified Milk Producers Assoc., Hotel Roosevelt, New York City, February 8, 1938)
From the Milk Book; How Science Is Destroying Nature's Nearly Perfect Food, Wm Campbell Douglass Jr. MD, 1996, Second Opinion Publishing, Georgia; pp 204:
Destin was a child who developed asthma as an infant on baby formulas, suffered near-fatal attacks yearly, grew frail, weak, underdeveloped, extremely small for his age, and was on regular medication. Dr Douglass treated him, at age nine, by feeding him raw milk. In six weeks he stopped wheezing for the first time in his life.
So what I am getting at with all this is, there is milk and there is milk. I am truly grateful I have been able to nurse my two girls until they were four years old and my DS is still going strong at 3 1/2. But if for any reason I couldn't have nursed them, I would, without hesitation, have given them raw cows milk. I am also grateful I am able to feed all my kiddos raw milk from a farm I trust that has only ever been organic. They only consume raw butter (homemade) and raw cream also. My youngest two have not been immunized, my eldest was fully vax'ed until she was five and then no more (she is now 13), and thankfully, she appears to have a strong, healthy immune system. Not one of my children have ever had antibiotics which of course will have something to do with their overall good health.