Lead in vaccines....a possiblity? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 38 Old 11-19-2007, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Does anyone know where the majority of vaccines are manufactured? Is it mostly in the US (for the vax's we use?)

If so, how are they made? Would there be a possibility of lead contamination? Have they been tested for lead?

Just thinkin out loud.....

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#2 of 38 Old 11-19-2007, 11:13 PM
 
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#3 of 38 Old 11-19-2007, 11:49 PM
 
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I would love to know my friend has a son who has autism. They have done some chelating (sp) and he spills HUGE amounts of lead in his urine. He was vaxed up till 2yrs and had meningitis at 7 weeks w/ IV antibiotics. they have lived in a new(er) home so he wasnt environmently exposed so WHERE did the lead come from?

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#4 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 12:59 AM
 
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have you searched google?


Where would vaccines come into contact with lead? They are made in sterile laboratories. The ingredients are listed. They are not using ceramic, lead-incrusted pottery or Dora plastic bowls or anything like that. Think about it logically - where would they even come into contact with lead?

As opposed to the boy mentioned above. The boy could have gotten lead from toys, from canned foods, from a variety of sources. There are umpteen potential sources of lead in a house, even a new one. His family should have the health department help them track the source.
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#5 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 01:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by yellowpansy View Post
have you searched google?


Where would vaccines come into contact with lead? They are made in sterile laboratories. The ingredients are listed. They are not using ceramic, lead-incrusted pottery or Dora plastic bowls or anything like that. Think about it logically - where would they even come into contact with lead?

As opposed to the boy mentioned above. The boy could have gotten lead from toys, from canned foods, from a variety of sources. There are umpteen potential sources of lead in a house, even a new one. His family should have the health department help them track the source.
I have searched google .....didnt come up with anything. YP, do you know exactly what type of equipment they make vaccines in? Do you know what they are made of/with?

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#6 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 01:58 AM
 
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Just thought I'd chime in. My three year old is unvaxed and had lead poisoning. We have been detoxing him and it's working, although he still is overcoming symptoms of being on the autism spectrum. We have racked our brains trying to figure out where he got the lead.

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#7 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 03:55 AM
 
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Just thought I'd chime in. My three year old is unvaxed and had lead poisoning. We have been detoxing him and it's working, although he still is overcoming symptoms of being on the autism spectrum. We have racked our brains trying to figure out where he got the lead.
When my son was two, we tested his blood lead levels. He scored high. I don't know about other places, but California law dictates that a clinician making such a discovery has reporting responsibilities, so county environmental health got involved right away. It turned into a bit of a fiasco, actually, and cost some people quite a bit of money (the source most strongly implicated was paint, probably mostly in the dirt around the outside of the house we lived in at the time; we moved almost immediately).

His blood lead levels (27.5 mics per deciliter) were not high enough to justify chelation (a process which can be pretty dangerous in its own right), but we were naturally concerned about the possibility of brain damage. He's in sixth grade now, and he's a happy, well-adjusted youngster with SATs in the high nineties across the board.

As far as I know, there's no lead in any vaccine.
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#8 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 06:57 AM
 
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Where would vaccines come into contact with lead? They are made in sterile laboratories. The ingredients are listed. They are not using ceramic, lead-incrusted pottery or Dora plastic bowls or anything like that. Think about it logically - where would they even come into contact with lead?
That is ironic. When I first read about the ingredients in vaccines (ca 10 yrs ago) I told my son and wife (both MD's) that I have read that there is either lead or mercury in vaccines. I could not remember because it seemed berserk either way.

They basically laughed at me and said: ABSOLUTELY NO WAY!
Then they elaborated about the dire consequences of having either one of those chemicals injected. They drew a very bleak picture. Called a friend who was a ped, (because I insisted that I knew what I had read) and again, same reaction.

Turned out they were all three misinformed.

Lead in vaccines? Now it seems alright to have mercury in there, why is it so impossible that they use lead in one of the stages of manufacturing vaccines and filter it out?
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#9 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 11:25 AM
 
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There are an awful lot of sources of lead around, especially from paint, but also in the soil (remember leaded gasoline).

My gd tested high from lead once. They live in an old house, did some remodeling and discovered that there was lead paint from a room they were redoing tracked all over the place, with a crawling babe in the house. It all worked out well. They were moved out of the house while a team came in and fixed all of the lead problems, and on her next test my gd was okay again. Apparently she had cleared the lead from her system on her own.

She is now a very bright kid and almost 8 years old.

There may be a lot of crap in vaccines, but I don't think lead is part of it. One thing that ought to be studied though, is if vaccines make it harder to clear lead out of a baby's system. Or perhaps it is the Tylenol? I know there is something that undermines the ability of the body to clear toxins. Messes up glutathione pathways?
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#10 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 12:40 PM
 
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Lead in vaccines? Now it seems alright to have mercury in there, why is it so impossible that they use lead in one of the stages of manufacturing vaccines and filter it out?
So we should assume that vaccines contain lead because it doesn't seem impossible to you that they might contain it?

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One thing that ought to be studied though, is if vaccines make it harder to clear lead out of a baby's system.
Infants are particularly at risk for lead exposure simply because they are infants. It's not just that every cotton-pickin' thing they find laying around goes right in their mouths, it's that the body mistakes lead for calcium, and their developing bodies are particularly calcium-hungry. When blood lead levels go down, it's partly because some of the lead has been taken up by bone tissue. Vaccinated or not, lead and babies just don't mix.
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#11 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 02:55 PM
 
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So we should assume that vaccines contain lead because it doesn't seem impossible to you that they might contain it?
No. Not at all.
But do we know all the micro-residue of the processes of manufacturing vaccines?

It was impossible to even imagine mercury in vaccines 10 yrs ago. Even for pediatricians. Now it seems ok though. They got used to it and have even learned to defend it.
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#12 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 04:21 PM
 
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But do we know all the micro-residue of the processes of manufacturing vaccines?
This is the extended version of what is known as the appeal to ignorance: "we can't know that every dose of every vaccine will be entirely free of an atom or molecule of just about any substance we care to posit, therefore we can't know that they don't contain lead".

In the first place, we aren't talking about "all the micro-residue of the processes of manufacturing vaccines", we're talking about lead. In the second place, to any approximation approaching a degree of practical value, it can be said definitively that there's no lead in vaccines. Due to the lack of evidence in support of this allegation, the objection is sustained, and the jury is instructed to disregard ... but will they?

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It was impossible to even imagine mercury in vaccines 10 yrs ago.
Impossible for whom? It's not like thimerosal was suddenly discovered to be present in vaccines; it was deliberately put there to prevent bacterial contamination. The shift in imagination had to do with the possible implications, and a growing body of evidence suggests that the more serious implications thus far imagined may remain within the realm of imagination forever.
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#13 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is the extended version of what is known as the appeal to ignorance: "we can't know that every dose of every vaccine will be entirely free of an atom or molecule of just about any substance we care to posit, therefore we can't know that they don't contain lead".

In the first place, we aren't talking about "all the micro-residue of the processes of manufacturing vaccines", we're talking about lead. In the second place, to any approximation approaching a degree of practical value, it can be said definitively that there's no lead in vaccines. Due to the lack of evidence in support of this allegation, the objection is sustained, and the jury is instructed to disregard ... but will they?

Impossible for whom? It's not like thimerosal was suddenly discovered to be present in vaccines; it was deliberately put there to prevent bacterial contamination. The shift in imagination had to do with the possible implications, and a growing body of evidence suggests that the more serious implications thus far imagined may remain within the realm of imagination forever.
Dynamic.....What are vaccines made in? What type of equipment?

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#14 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 07:26 PM
 
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Dynamic.....What are vaccines made in? What type of equipment?
I am taking an educated guess, and a scientist can correct me if I am wrong, that vaccines are made in sterile glass.
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#15 of 38 Old 11-20-2007, 09:38 PM
 
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Just read the package inserts, it's clearly laid out in the very first section of each insert.
The short answer is, a combination of sterile glass flasks and tubes, growth media which are made up of amino acids, mineral salts, and sometimes animal tissue or serum, and then there's the occasional contact with lab-sterile stainless steel.
Those sterility conditions assume that the lab always follows protocol and always does everything right.
Contamination can occur, but they go to great lengths to avoid it.
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#16 of 38 Old 11-21-2007, 02:20 AM
 
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What are vaccines made in? What type of equipment?
It doesn't look like you've quite grasped the nature of the objection I've raised here. Accepting the burden of proof and running off to dig up whatever details you might specify would amount to an implicit validation of the appeal to ignorance as a rational argument, and an invitation to repeat the exercise with whatever other substance you'd care to name. Does watching television negatively impact immunity? Can you prove that it doesn't? Has this been studied? Is it possible that Mountain Dew contains lead, or cadmium, or arsenic, or beryllium, or uranium, or invisible nanobots? If you don't know that it doesn't, isn't it fair to say that it is possible? And since it is possible, shouldn't Mountain Dew be banned pending further investigation of each of these possibilities? Aren't we ultimately looking at an infinite number of possibilities?
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#17 of 38 Old 11-21-2007, 02:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It doesn't look like you've quite grasped the nature of the objection I've raised here. Accepting the burden of proof and running off to dig up whatever details you might specify would amount to an implicit validation of the appeal to ignorance as a rational argument, and an invitation to repeat the exercise with whatever other substance you'd care to name. Does watching television negatively impact immunity? Can you prove that it doesn't? Has this been studied? Is it possible that Mountain Dew contains lead, or cadmium, or arsenic, or beryllium, or uranium, or invisible nanobots? If you don't know that it doesn't, isn't it fair to say that it is possible? And since it is possible, shouldn't Mountain Dew be banned pending further investigation of each of these possibilities? Aren't we ultimately looking at an infinite number of possibilities?
I'm sorry if you've misunderstood my original question. I am just wondering what type of equipment they manufacture vaccines in. I'm wondering if there is a possibility of lead contamination.

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#18 of 38 Old 11-21-2007, 02:29 AM
 
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I would love to know my friend has a son who has autism. They have done some chelating (sp) and he spills HUGE amounts of lead in his urine. He was vaxed up till 2yrs and had meningitis at 7 weeks w/ IV antibiotics. they have lived in a new(er) home so he wasnt environmently exposed so WHERE did the lead come from?
Very possibly from his mother, especially if her body detoxed during pregnancy or breastfeeding.
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#19 of 38 Old 11-21-2007, 03:20 AM
 
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I'm sorry if you've misunderstood my original question.
I wasn't really treating your question as the "original question", but one which was following in the same vein as Gitti's: "do we know all the micro-residue of the processes of manufacturing vaccines?". Even the OP's question may be considered an instance of the same class, all members of which take the form of an appeal to ignorance, and include an (often tacit) assumption which reduces to some version of: "we don't know everything it might be possible to know about vaccines and their effects, therefore vaccines should be regarded as unsafe". My point is that we don't know everything about anything, and never will, but this does not lead us to regard as generally unsafe most of the products we use (including those we consume), even when we are not familiar with every detail of their manufacture.

By their nature, vaccines are held to a higher standard than are many other types of product, and where safety is concerned, the burden of proof is high. Huge amounts of money and time are in fact dedicated to meeting this burden. What I think a thread like this one illustrates is that for some, it is a burden that can never be met, because science will never be able to keep pace with imagination.
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#20 of 38 Old 11-21-2007, 07:11 AM
 
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Taken competely out of context, but this is one statement I totally agree with:


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"we don't know everything it might be possible to know about vaccines and their effects, therefore vaccines should be regarded as unsafe"


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#21 of 38 Old 11-21-2007, 10:33 AM
 
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What is interesting about this discussion:

Let us look at it as a microcosm of the larger vaccine picture.

Why do the authorities: CDC, FDA, AAP and WHO, go to great lengths to keep vaccine information either unavailable or deceptive? Because they are sure that once people become aware of some ingredients (thimerosal being 50% mercury, for example), they will become doubtful about the safety of vaccines. But what they are missing is the role that secretive behavior plays in this distrust.

On this board we have a sample set of parents who have become aware of some of the ingredients and have also become aware of, let us say, the "selective" nature of the information they were given before agreeing to vax their children. And now, amazingly, they are distrustful of all the info around vaccines, prone to suspect conspiracies, and very angry when people tell them they are being silly. This sample set is even more biased, of course, when you realize that many of them have children who had bad reactions to their vaccines. So to be told that they are being silly is not only insulting, it is also cruel.

There probably isn't lead in vaccines. But considering that there is mercury at levels that make the vaccines into toxic waste (50,000 ppb in the flu vax), is it surprising that some people wonder? Lied to once, lied to twice, etc.
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#22 of 38 Old 11-21-2007, 11:15 AM
 
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Why do the authorities: CDC, FDA, AAP and WHO, go to great lengths to keep vaccine information either unavailable or deceptive?
Are your concerns about the safety of vaccines based on information that IS available, or (like Gitti) on information that is NOT available?
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#23 of 38 Old 11-21-2007, 02:34 PM
 
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Are your concerns about the safety of vaccines based on information that IS available, or (like Gitti) on information that is NOT available?
Parents usually experience this in stages.

First stage is all the usual media stuff. Vaccines are good, good, good.
Second stage is visiting the doctor with your babe for the first vaccines (although sometimes this happens immediately after birth, with the info hidden in a stack of papers to be signed). During this stage parents are handed the Vaccine Information Sheet for each vaccine...sometimes after the vax has been given. Limited and sometimes inaccurate info, meant to keep parents docile.
Third stage is beginning to have questions and then the comparisons will begin. Parents will read a book about vaccines, have a look at the parent's pages at the CDC, dig around on the Internet, perhaps talk to other parents. Inconsistencies will start to show up, distrust begins to rise.

And it goes on from there.

Are you claiming that parents are given accurate information about vaccines? Let us take one example. Hepatitis A vax. This is a sickness that is rarely dangerous for children. So why vax children? Because they are available and because they want to PROTECT ADULTS. Are parents told that their children are being vaxed to protect adults?
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#24 of 38 Old 11-21-2007, 03:21 PM
 
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Parents usually experience this in stages.
Without a doubt, individual knowledge bases vary considerably. What I consider most relevant in this context concerns the collective knowledge base. Gitti has agreed with an approach I paraphrased as:

"we don't know everything it might be possible to know about vaccines and their effects, therefore vaccines should be regarded as unsafe"

The "we" in that sentence refers to the collective knowledge base. With that in mind, and considering the high degree of scrutiny to which this special class of product is subject, the answer to the OP's question as to whether it is likely to be suddenly discovered that vaccines contain lead (in the manner of recent discoveries concerning toys from China) seems too trivially obvious to deserve much attention (if I have accurately summed up what the OP implied).

But a broader and more subtle question remains, that having to do with the overall safety of vaccines, especially over the long term. A number of specific concerns have been expressed over the years, and while no one issue has really emerged as a slam dunk for the anti-vax team, some of these continue to be debated. I'd like to ask you to do something you may find difficult: pretend for a moment that each and every one of these issues had been resolved to your satisfaction. I would then ask whether you would still consider it reasonable to regard vaccines as potentially unsafe on the basis of issues which have yet to emerge; that is, on the basis of facts which have not yet made their way into the collective knowledge base.
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Without a doubt, individual knowledge bases vary considerably. What I consider most relevant in this context concerns the collective knowledge base. Gitti has agreed with an approach I paraphrased as:

"we don't know everything it might be possible to know about vaccines and their effects, therefore vaccines should be regarded as unsafe"

The "we" in that sentence refers to the collective knowledge base. With that in mind, and considering the high degree of scrutiny to which this special class of product is subject, the answer to the OP's question as to whether it is likely to be suddenly discovered that vaccines contain lead (in the manner of recent discoveries concerning toys from China) seems too trivially obvious to deserve much attention (if I have accurately summed up what the OP implied).

But a broader and more subtle question remains, that having to do with the overall safety of vaccines, especially over the long term. A number of specific concerns have been expressed over the years, and while no one issue has really emerged as a slam dunk for the anti-vax team, some of these continue to be debated. I'd like to ask you to do something you may find difficult: pretend for a moment that each and every one of these issues had been resolved to your satisfaction. I would then ask whether you would still consider it reasonable to regard vaccines as potentially unsafe on the basis of issues which have yet to emerge; that is, on the basis of facts which have not yet made their way into the collective knowledge base.
If they were resolved with good science (not large epidemiological studies) and science that wasn't contaminated by conflicts of interest, I might consider a limited number of vaccines for certain diseases. The overall concept of trying to prevent disease by vaccination is problematic for me.

And then, of course, there is the SV-40 story. At the time they were first doing the polio vaccine they couldn't know that there was viral contamination or what the possible consequences might be.

Oh, of course, with thimerosal, when it was first used in the 1930s, they didn't know what the long-term consequences would be, did they? Even if all possible problems haven't been totally confirmed, the general consensus seems to be that injecting mercury into babies isn't an absolutely safe procedure.

And then there are a number of other situations where something looked just fine at first and then turned out to cause unforseen problems. Insecticides for one example. Who would have thought that the damn insects would evolve so that offspring would be resistant to the crap? And that insecticides would have all sorts of weird effects on people and the environment?

So...yes, surprising problems do keep arising as a result of human ingenuity...and some of them have popped up as a result of vaxing...and I think they will continue to do so.

Therefore I think exercising due caution with new drugs is not irrational.

Hope that answers your question.
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#26 of 38 Old 11-23-2007, 04:50 PM
 
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bumping this thread as I thought the discussion was just becoming interesting.

Perhaps some other folks will want to respond to Dymanic's question.
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#27 of 38 Old 11-23-2007, 05:50 PM
 
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To the OP -

Quote:
2) Masters and Coplan have reported (International Journal of Environmental Studies, in press) that silicofluorides in fluoridated drinking water increased levels of lead in children's blood....
http://www.fluoridealert.org/pmullenix.htm
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#28 of 38 Old 11-27-2007, 11:09 PM
 
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Another bump...don't think this discussion is quite finished yet...
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#29 of 38 Old 11-28-2007, 12:47 AM
 
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I'd like to ask you to do something you may find difficult: pretend for a moment that each and every one of these issues had been resolved to your satisfaction. I would then ask whether you would still consider it reasonable to regard vaccines as potentially unsafe on the basis of issues which have yet to emerge; that is, on the basis of facts which have not yet made their way into the collective knowledge base.
i can already predict you're not going to like my answer; it is (mostly) utterly unscientific. the short version is: i know there's something fishy about vaccines. i just know it!

in order for each and every one of the issues to be resolved to my satisfaction, the entire way vaccines work would have to change--the artifical stimulation of the immune system via adjuvants like aluminum would have to go.

but without artificial (hyper)stimulation of the immune system, vaccines would not be vaccines, would they?...so i'm at a loss as to how the issues would ever be resolved to my satisfaction. i just think the concept is fishy. it doesn't pass the smell test to me.

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#30 of 38 Old 11-30-2007, 11:57 PM
 
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bumping again

some interesting points raised in this thread
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