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#1 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I honestly have not been able to find any proof that vaccines are safe and 100% effective.

For those of you that do feel they are safe, what specifically convinced you?

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#2 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 06:22 PM
 
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: Will be an interesting read.

~Marie : Mom to DS(11), DS(10), DD(8), DD(4), DD(2), & Happily Married to DH 12 yrs.!
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#3 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 06:33 PM
 
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Well, vaccines, to us, are not 100% safe, so I cannot show that 'evidence' because it does not exist.

The things that convinced us to do certain vaccines:

-risks of the diseases in our area and the areas we travel to yearly
-complications of the disease vs risks of the vaccine
-studies about the above

Things that turned us away from certain vaccines:

-age of vaccine
-personal stories in the case of rotavirus reactions
-letting our child wait to decide for themselves for certain vaccines (Hep B, Hep A, HPV-- diseases that it wasn't even necessary for us to really look at)
-serotype replacement


Things that made us delay certain vaccines:

-daycare/school status (risks in general-- low risk now may turn higher risk later)
-waiting for developmental milestones to be on target
-waiting to see if any neurological problems/allergies are present that the CDC/etc say you should not be vaxxed if you show signs of




Lot more, but thats off the top of my head while NAKing.

If you are looking for specific studies, that would take a while. It;s been like a year of research, picked up a lot while psoting here. But I used mostly studies available through scholar and med plus read 2 books and talked a lot to people.

Still reading and researching. Was just convinced today to check out sear's book and will definitely be looking at the studies he references.


edited to add a few things

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#4 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 07:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
I honestly have not been able to find any proof that vaccines are safe and 100% effective.
Not surprising, since no one claims 100% effectiveness. To suggest that anyone does is what is known as a strawman argument.

To me, the only relevant question is whether the risk of vaccination is greater or less than the risk from getting any particular VPD.
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#5 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
Not surprising, since no one claims 100% effectiveness. To suggest that anyone does is what is known as a strawman argument.

To me, the only relevant question is whether the risk of vaccination is greater or less than the risk from getting any particular VPD.
yup!:
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#6 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 08:10 PM
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There is no proof. Can't be, because they are NOT safe and certainly not 100% effective. What there is, is a perceived and grossly distorted risk of 'disease' vs unrealistic expectations from a vaccine reinforced by crazy marketing. :
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#7 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 08:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
Not surprising, since no one claims 100% effectiveness. To suggest that anyone does is what is known as a strawman argument.

To me, the only relevant question is whether the risk of vaccination is greater or less than the risk from getting any particular VPD.
And everyone needs to have on their list of vaccine risks, "the vaccine may not be effective and I may have injected myself/my child for NO benefit". At best, vaccines have a POTENTIAL benefit; the benefit cannot even be guaranteed.

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#8 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 09:08 PM
 
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subbing
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#9 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 10:23 PM
 
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Carriebft - I'm curious which vaxes you ended up doing?

We are going through this decision now. I never considered myself anti-vax just wanted to select and delay but the more research I do the more difficult time I'm having deciding whether to do any and if so when. I think we're at least going to wait until age 1 or 2.
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#10 of 96 Old 12-05-2007, 11:29 PM
 
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Ones we have done/are def doing/ doing at some point (though the schedules are different for each kid right now):

MMR
DtaP
Hib (up to about 90% sure on this one now)
IPV (travel issue)

Possible pox if they don't get chicken pox by a certain, undetermined right now, age.

My oldest has not had Hib but we are considering for new babe because older will be in summer camp/montessori.

The CDC just changed their recommendations on hep A for 2 of our yearly destinations. I am against the vaccine and my husband wants to do it. Still discussing...but its a done deal that they dont need it for me, though I am open to talking with him on it.

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#11 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 11:07 AM
 
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carrie - just curious on the Hib - what made you decide on this? I don't know how old your children are - but I thought this strain was primarily in the under 5's. Its not usually administered to children older than 5.
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#12 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 11:56 AM
 
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Vaccines are "as safe as can be"

That's not good enough for my children.
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#13 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 12:24 PM
 
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http://www.ageofautism.com/2007/12/olmsted-on-auti.html

FDA risking children's lives...everyday.

Another great Olmsted blog. Which ties directly to vaccine safety.

How many times do these folks get to screw up before we are allowed to question their competence?
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#14 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 12:25 PM
 
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"Vaccines are "as safe as can be"

That's not good enough for my children."

Using this standard, is there any medicine or medical treatment you would allow your child to have?
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#15 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 12:32 PM
 
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#16 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 12:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
http://www.ageofautism.com/2007/12/olmsted-on-auti.html

FDA risking children's lives...everyday.

Another great Olmsted blog. Which ties directly to vaccine safety.

How many times do these folks get to screw up before we are allowed to question their competence?
From the blog:

Quote:
The FDA cannot be counted on to protect us or identify even a blatant threat to public health like organic mercury in childhood vaccines, according to the FDA itself. Yet it approves vaccines and, along with the CDC, monitors reports of adverse events. The CDC cannot be counted on either, because it is the same agency that recommends the vaccine schedule -- a conflict so blatant that Rep. Dave Weldon, R-Fla., keeps introducing legislation to take safety review away from the agency. But what does he know -- he's just a medical doctor whose constituents all of a sudden started talking about all their children with autism.
Quote:
So, who exactly is it in the United States government that can be trusted with the job of figuring out whether vaccines are safe and effective -- SAFE and effective, the criteria for approving drugs and allowing them to stay on the market?

Exactly no one.
Nice.
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#17 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 12:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bczmama View Post
"Vaccines are "as safe as can be"

That's not good enough for my children."

Using this standard, is there any medicine or medical treatment you would allow your child to have?
You do understand that medical treatment when sick is different from giving a drug to a healthy child that MIGHT keep the child from getting sick? But might not. And might not cause a reaction...but might. And so on.

If someone is sick you look at the various options available, choose the treatment that offers the best results with the fewest side effects and then use the treatment.

Vaccines are a different sort of drug. They are supposed to be for everyone (although they are only tested on a very narrow slice of the population) and they are supposed to prevent various illnesses, not cure them.

Not a good parallel, IMO. Although it seems to be a very popular one!
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#18 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 03:33 PM
 
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carrie - just curious on the Hib - what made you decide on this? I don't know how old your children are - but I thought this strain was primarily in the under 5's. Its not usually administered to children older than 5.
My daughter is going into montessori summer camp again and then possibly half day montessori in the fall; during that time we will have a new baby in the house. Because we feel this means an increased risk for our house, we are reconsidering getting the vaccine. My daughter will be 3 and a half.

There's a lot of involvement at the school, which means me and the babe and my middle child will be going in now and then. Plus the added exposure for my daughter being there everyday....so those all became factors for us.

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#19 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 03:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
Not surprising, since no one claims 100% effectiveness. To suggest that anyone does is what is known as a strawman argument.

To me, the only relevant question is whether the risk of vaccination is greater or less than the risk from getting any particular VPD.
Right right right, but here's the thing - how do you assess that given the extent of the research? People are always saying "prove they are dangerous," but why should the burden lie there? Sure, we can never prove them 100% safe and effective. The problem lies in the fact that, whenever someone who doesn't vaccinate says that the research is insufficient, someone who does vax tells her/him that better studies can't be done so that's that, shoot up your kid or shut up. And we have to get EXEMPTIONS not to shoot our kids up? Does that seem like a neutral ground for risk assessment to you?

Show me some good studies that really assess the actual risks, including an honest assessment of the disease risk. This is not a rhetorical question. The studies I read linked here have the same huge holes in them, over and over again.
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#20 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 03:53 PM
 
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It looks like Sear's book has a section on this, and, according to those I have asked about it, it has full research citations available. SO, when my book arrives and I get there, I'll see how he gets his disease risk numbers and reactions numbers. I am definitely curious to see how he got to where he did.

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#21 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 04:09 PM
 
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The problem lies in the fact that, whenever someone who doesn't vaccinate says that the research is insufficient, someone who does vax tells her/him that better studies can't be done so that's that, shoot up your kid or shut up.
This sounds like a problem of perception more than anything else. I just had this discussion in another thread, where I said that I don't think it's that "better" studies can't be done, but that there has not been the motivation to do them yet - either because of ethical issues, feasibility problems, cost, or the difficulty in deconvolving various other influences.

In any case, if one decides that the current research is insufficient, and therefore makes a decision based on other factors, one is by definition making a non-science-based choice, sort of rendering the issue moot. Personally I feel that the research we have available - imperfect though it may be (such is the nature of science) - is the best basis on which to make a decision.
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#22 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 05:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bczmama View Post
"Vaccines are "as safe as can be"

That's not good enough for my children."

Using this standard, is there any medicine or medical treatment you would allow your child to have?
Absolutely, if they were injured or sick. But to medically treat a child that is not ill in the name of prevention makes no sense, especially when that treatment includes injecting a neurotoxin, multiple times.
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#23 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 05:51 PM
 
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It makes sense to me to inject in the name of prevention when the risk of the disease is high and the evidence of a working vaccine is present.

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#24 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 05:54 PM
 
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It makes sense to me to inject in the name of prevention when the risk of the disease is high and the evidence of a working vaccine is present.
What risk of disease is high where you live?

The only one I can think of here is.............

darn, I can't think of any.
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#25 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 06:01 PM
 
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I don't hang out where I live all the time And sometimes I live elsewhere for a while at a time. I am an enigma like that.... Or married to an immigrant

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#26 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 06:49 PM
 
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How would a study have to look like to make you think they're safe?
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#27 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 06:50 PM
 
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What risk of disease is high where you live?

The only one I can think of here is.............

darn, I can't think of any.
Thank those who vaccinate their children.
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#28 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 06:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
In any case, if one decides that the current research is insufficient, and therefore makes a decision based on other factors, one is by definition making a non-science-based choice, sort of rendering the issue moot. Personally I feel that the research we have available - imperfect though it may be (such is the nature of science) - is the best basis on which to make a decision.
Vaccinating is intentionally exposing your child to risk factors that you consider acceptable. Not vaccinating is intentionally avoiding risk factors that you consider unacceptable. Lack of safety data is an unacceptable risk factor to many of us. What you just said was "since you don't think the scientific studies demonstrating safety are conclusive, you are not making a scientific decision." I am using science, just like you are. But I am defaulting to not vaccinating, whereas you suggest the opposite position.

That is one of the fundamental disagreements on this board; each to his/her own.
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#29 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 06:58 PM
 
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Thank those who vaccinate their children.
For making it more difficult to acquire natural immunity to measles, mumps and chickenpox? For nothing when it comes to pertussis? For serotype replacement?
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#30 of 96 Old 12-06-2007, 07:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wallacesmum View Post
For making it more difficult to acquire natural immunity to measles, mumps and chickenpox? For nothing when it comes to pertussis? For serotype replacement?
:

.

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