Measles spreading in San Diego - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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#181 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 02:11 PM
 
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It seems if we accept the assumption (which everyone in this thread seems to have) that developing country= poor health....then it would not be difficult to accept the assumption that developed country= not poor health.

...not the germ but the terrain...
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#182 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 02:29 PM
 
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So. . .back to the outbreak - does anyone know why they allow recently vaxed kids back in school, even if they may have been exposed? Measles has a relatively long incubation period - so couldn't they still have it and pass it on?
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#183 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 02:34 PM
 
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So. . .back to the outbreak - does anyone know why they allow recently vaxed kids back in school, even if they may have been exposed? Measles has a relatively long incubation period - so couldn't they still have it and pass it on?
Because vaccines are magic? Because they're "good" children who follow the rules?

Perhaps it's the idea that they won't transmit it now... though I don't think that's valid...

I think that IMO it's just an indication that it's more about "following the rules" than public health.

-Angela
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#184 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 03:43 PM
 
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Because vaccines are magic? Because they're "good" children who follow the rules?

Perhaps it's the idea that they won't transmit it now... though I don't think that's valid...

I think that IMO it's just an indication that it's more about "following the rules" than public health.

-Angela
But we have no outbreaks here although they allow kids back to school right after being vax'd as far as I know. Are there areas where this has triggered outbreaks?
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#185 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 03:55 PM
 
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But we have no outbreaks here although they allow kids back to school right after being vax'd as far as I know. Are there areas where this has triggered outbreaks?
This is a different question. As far as I know nowhere has any laws about keeping recently vaccinated children out of schools or anywhere else.

Yes, live vaxes can shed. Apparently they're not worried about that.

-Angela
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#186 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 04:01 PM
 
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So. . .back to the outbreak - does anyone know why they allow recently vaxed kids back in school, even if they may have been exposed? Measles has a relatively long incubation period - so couldn't they still have it and pass it on?
That's a valid point. Immunity does not develop immediately upon vaccination, so it would seem to make better sense to consider any child not vaccinated during the known window of exposure to be at risk of developing the illness, and possibly an exposure risk to others, as measles is contagious for a few days before the onset of symptoms. It may simply be that while immunization may not immediately confer immunity, it does immediately confer compliance with the letter of the law, and once immunized, the children are required by law to attend school.

On February 6, San Diego Cooperative Charter School reported having twenty-one students on "stay-home" status until February 21.
http://www.sdccs.org/
By February 12, it was down to seventeen students, suggesting that four had been readmitted following compliance with the immunization requirement. These students are not considered a threat to vaccinated students, but they might be considered possible threats to each other. They are being checked daily "to make sure they are not developing any of the early signs of measles". Of course, if they do, the horse will already be out of the barn. With any luck, maybe none of the recently vaxed returnees share classrooms.
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#187 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 04:53 PM
 
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Does anyone know if measles in adults is "worse" or carries more complications than in children? Also, are there more risks/complications for toddlers (<2 yrs)? I'm asking for any links/info as well as anecdotes.

I'm in SD and am preparing for the chance that DS or our family gets it.

Thanks!
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#188 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 05:09 PM
 
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The original number being excluded was somewhere in the 30's. Then several students (like my son) submitted vax records showing one dose of MMR (assuming families who are selective/delayed vaxing or stopped vaxing like we did), about 4 kids were vaxed at school by the health department (from what I understand, most of these were fourth graders who were about to leave for their annual week long field trip and didn't want to be excluded). Then there were the 3 kids that actually had the measles - all of whom are back at school now.

Then there are the unvaxed kids that come everyday, like my two little ones, who aren't students but are on campus for drop off/pick up/volunteer time. Then there are also the adults who probably have never had their titers drawn or had adult booster shots - I mean, I know plenty of women who were vax'd for measles as kids who were told when they were pregnant that they came back showing as not-immune.
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#189 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 05:11 PM
 
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Does anyone know if measles in adults is "worse" or carries more complications than in children? Also, are there more risks/complications for toddlers (<2 yrs)? I'm asking for any links/info as well as anecdotes.

I'm in SD and am preparing for the chance that DS or our family gets it.

Thanks!

There is supposedly a higher risk of complications for the under 2/over 20 crowd. Complications can be as minor as diarrhea and ear infection to as major as pneumonia and Subacute sclerosing pan encephalitis (which a lot of people have been discussing here as SSPE).
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#190 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 05:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dymanic View Post

On February 6, San Diego Cooperative Charter School reported having twenty-one students on "stay-home" status until February 21.
http://www.sdccs.org/
By February 12, it was down to seventeen students, suggesting that four had been readmitted following compliance with the immunization requirement. These students are not considered a threat to vaccinated students, but they might be considered possible threats to each other. They are being checked daily "to make sure they are not developing any of the early signs of measles". Of course, if they do, the horse will already be out of the barn. With any luck, maybe none of the recently vaxed returnees share classrooms.

dynamic, I'm pretty sure this number (21)included the three children who actually had the measles and my son who was out for a few days while we located his vaccine record. With those for kids back, it drops the number to 17.
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#191 of 267 Old 02-17-2008, 08:20 PM
 
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...not the germ but the terrain...
Exactly. You don't find mosquitos breeding in and hovering over clean water.

I don't know what is so difficult to grasp about this concept. The same can be said for most diseases, those MOST at risk for complications are the very young, the very old, and those already in a poor state of health.

Diarrhea is not deadly in the US, maybe where there is no access to clean water, but death from diarreah is RARE. So no, millions ARE NOT dying from runny poop here.

DYMANIC :
"Diarrhea is a major cause of death in children"

Not in the US.
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#192 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 04:35 AM
 
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Subbing - best place to find info on the outbreak.

My friend (waving if she's reading) has a child who is on immune suppressing drugs due to a heart transplant. Her child has no immune system and chicken pox puts her in the hospital. I know that most people don't think the measles outbreaks is "cool" - but if you do - please keep in mind that if my friends beautiful little girl is exposed, she could die. They are going stir crazy because my friend is scared to leave her house. Yes - she's very paranoid - but her little girl was in the hospital 3 times in one year for the chicken pox - and the measles are so much worse.
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#193 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 11:11 AM
 
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You don't find mosquitos breeding in and hovering over clean water. I don't know what is so difficult to grasp about this concept. The same can be said for most diseases, those MOST at risk for complications are the very young, the very old, and those already in a poor state of health.
I've already said that I won't dispute that "poor health" (a perilously vague distinction, btw) places an individual at greater risk for complications. I'll even extend that to include the very young and the very old, though there might be some who would object to being regarded as "in poor health" simply by virtue of being very old, or to having their babies regarded as "in poor health" simply by virtue of being very young.

Ignoring the fact that this might make a nice argument in favor of vaccinating the "very young" against measles (though not so much the "very old", as people born before 1958 are generally regarded as having pre-existing immunity), and also ignoring the fact that "those already in a poor state of health" may include some who are unable to tolerate either vaccination OR infection and must rely entirely upon herd immunity obtained by vaccinating (or, if you like, infecting) others -- observing that these are the ones MOST at risk is not the same as saying that they are the ONLY ones at risk. I don't know what is so difficult to grasp about this concept.

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Diarrhea is not deadly in the US
Because children in the US are less frequently exposed to pathogens which cause it. At least in some part because the population surrounding them is mostly vaccinated against things like measles. This is true whether they themselves are vaccinated or not -- a fact that immedately becomes clear as soon as some of them step outside that circle of protection by visiting a place where vaccine coverage against measles is less than what is required to maintain herd immunity. Like Switzerland.

And by the way, mosquitos will breed just fine in clean water, as long as it isn't moving.
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#194 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 12:42 PM
 
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regarding the SSPE risk - I think its interesting that the WHO's explanation of the vaccine not inducing SSPE ends with this statement:

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SSPE due to wild virus has been reported in persons who have been immunized with measles vaccine and have no history of symptomatic natural measles infection.
so..vaccine or no, its possible to be infected with the wild measles virus, not know it and still develop SSPE?

in any case - until we know the true risk of neurological disorders from the MMR (including ASD) weighing the risk/benefit is still impossible.

by dynamic re Diarrhea:
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Because children in the US are less frequently exposed to pathogens which cause it. At least in some part because the population surrounding them is mostly vaccinated against things like measles. This is true whether they themselves are vaccinated or not -- a fact that immedately becomes clear as soon as some of them step outside that circle of protection by visiting a place where vaccine coverage against measles is less than what is required to maintain herd immunity. Like Switzerland.
are you saying that kids in Switzerland now have a greater chance of dying from diarrhea? whether you are exposed to the pathogens or not, the greatest risk of death from diarrhea is dehydration. not a big risk in countries with access to hospital care and IVs. whether they have high measles vaccination rates or not.
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#195 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 01:13 PM
 
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so..vaccine or no, its possible to be infected with the wild measles virus, not know it and still develop SSPE?
Since SSPE is roughly a hundred times less likely to occur than other complications such as pneumonia, encephalitis, and diarrhea, it's not the first thing I'd be concerned about, but subclinical measles apparently does exist:

"The high rate of sero-positivity (54%) amongst unvaccinated children (who were also not attacked by measles) most probably indicates sub-clinical or asymptomatic measles infection .About 30% measles infection are subclinical in nature. Other workers have also come across subclinical cases of measles during their studies viz. Mehta et al and Deseda Tous et al found subclinical measles infection to the rate of 38% and 59% respectively and both of these observations are comparable to the findings of the present study."
http://medind.nic.in/ibl/t03/i1/iblt03i1p8o.pdf

There do not appear to be any reported cases of vaccine-related SSPE, which is not surprising, as it results from a mutation which occurs in the wild virus, and vaccine developers decided it might be a good idea not to include strains bearing that mutation in the vax. SSPE has been known to occur in vaccinated individuals, but this is taken as an indicator of poor seroconversion (which can happen for any number of reasons, possibly including interference with maternal antibodies aquired through breastfeeding).

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whether you are exposed to the pathogens or not, the greatest risk of death from diarrhea is dehydration. not a big risk in countries with access to hospital care and IVs.
The risk of dying in an automobile accident is significantly reduced by the prevelance of airbags and seatbelts, too, but it's still a good idea to keep an eye on the road while driving.
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#196 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 05:03 PM
 
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This is a different question. As far as I know nowhere has any laws about keeping recently vaccinated children out of schools or anywhere else.

Yes, live vaxes can shed. Apparently they're not worried about that.

-Angela
I'm honestly confused. I really have never heard of an outbreak being triggered here (in my lifetime) although the vast majority of kids are vaccinated and then out in public right away.

I feel like I'm missing something here
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#197 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 05:16 PM
 
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I'm honestly confused. I really have never heard of an outbreak being triggered here (in my lifetime) although the vast majority of kids are vaccinated and then out in public right away.

I feel like I'm missing something here
The measles vaccine does not seem particularly prone to shedding. Though it is still a possibility.

-Angela
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#198 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 05:36 PM
 
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WOW I just stumbled on this today....


Although I was fully vaccinated as a child... I got sick with this strange virus going around my town, part of which included a bumpy rash, and when my mom came to visit she said, "THAT LOOKS LIKE MEASLES!" I kind of dismissed it out of hand but......

*then* when my dd was in the hospital they kept asking me, "has she been exposed to measles?" ~~ this is unusual to me because no drs ever made a point to ask us this ever before.

Makes a person wonder....



I hate to say this and maybe it's already been said somewhere in this thread, I haven't read page 2 yet ~ but I think we may be coming into an era in which vaccines don't do much anyway.
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#199 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 05:38 PM
 
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I've already said that I won't dispute that "poor health" (a perilously vague distinction, btw) places an individual at greater risk for complications. I'll even extend that to include the very young and the very old, though there might be some who would object to being regarded as "in poor health" simply by virtue of being very old, or to having their babies regarded as "in poor health" simply by virtue of being very young.
Never said the very young and very old were of ill health simply due to their age, just more at risk for complications, IN ADDITION to those already in poor health. It appears you misunderstood the comment, so wanted to clarify.

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Ignoring the fact that this might make a nice argument in favor of vaccinating the "very young" against measles (though not so much the "very old", as people born before 1958 are generally regarded as having pre-existing immunity), and also ignoring the fact that "those already in a poor state of health" may include some who are unable to tolerate either vaccination OR infection and must rely entirely upon herd immunity obtained by vaccinating (or, if you like, infecting) others -
The very young USED to be protected quite well from the immunity they gained from their mothers, their UNVACCINATED mothers who gained immunity from the disease. Sadly, this no longer appears to be the case, as the vaccinated mothers who never had the infection are not able to protect their infants with the same level of protection enjoyed by those born to unvaccinated mothers. So now we are looking at vaccinating the very young AS A RESULT of the poor situation the vaccine program has caused. And like you said, the older folk are more than likely already protected by the immunity they gained from the disease. Not sure what the future will hold for those who got the vax instead. No doubt they will add an MMR to their schedule, since as they age, they will fall iinto that risk group eventually.

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- observing that these are the ones MOST at risk is not the same as saying that they are the ONLY ones at risk. I don't know what is so difficult to grasp about this concept.
Again to clarify, no one ever said the above groups were the ONLY ones at risk, just MOST at risk.

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And by the way, mosquitos will breed just fine in clean water, as long as it isn't moving.
They breed in standing water. So when mosquitos breed in "clean" water, "clean" is according to whose standards? Clean enough for you to drink? Or appears to be clean because it's clear? They breed in stagnant water. Doubt this is water you would consider pure.
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#200 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 05:46 PM
 
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I think this is a really important post and needs to be reiterated:

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Wonderful. We have narrowed down where the majority of deaths are happening, in the following 47 countries...

3Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Benin, Burkina Faso, Burundi,
Cambodia, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Congo, Côte
d'Ivoire, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial
Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau,
India, Indonesia, Kenya, Lao People's Democratic Republic, Liberia,
Madagascar, Mali, Mozambique, Myanmar, Nepal, Niger, Nigeria,
Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Rwanda, Senegal, Sierra Leone,
Somalia, Sudan, Timor-Leste, Togo, Uganda, United Republic of
Tanzania, Viet Nam, Yemen and Zambia •

Now the next question(s)

WHY are the majority of measles deaths happening in the countries above?

Are the inhabitants dying in larger numbers from all diseases or just measles?

It's not about widespread vaccinations. What we need to be doing is raising living conditions so they have clean water, proper nutrition, and access to the means for good hygeine. Also reducing chronic war would probably help too but that's just speculation on my part.



ETA ~ oops this point was already made.
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#201 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 06:16 PM
 
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The very young USED to be protected quite well from the immunity they gained from their mothers, their UNVACCINATED mothers who gained immunity from the disease.
Up until about nine months of age, which is the age most often recommended for measles vaccination in developing countries. It's a bit higher in the U.S., partly because the risk of exposure is so much less.

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They breed in standing water. So when mosquitos breed in "clean" water, "clean" is according to whose standards? Clean enough for you to drink? Or appears to be clean because it's clear? They breed in stagnant water. Doubt this is water you would consider pure.
Would you drink from a barrel of rainwater?

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Originally Posted by Aura_Kitten
It's not about widespread vaccinations. What we need to be doing is raising living conditions so they have clean water, proper nutrition, and access to the means for good hygeine. Also reducing chronic war would probably help too but that's just speculation on my part.
Ok. Your budget is ten cents per kid. Got any magic wands on ya?
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#202 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 06:44 PM
 
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Take all of the BILLIONS of dollars Bush has spent on the war...
Add in the TRILLIONS being spent to maintain and create nuclear weapons...

Now divide that total by however many kids are in, say, Africa...

My question becomes, is our budget still 10 cents per kid?
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#203 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 06:47 PM
 
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Take all of the BILLIONS of dollars Bush has spent on the war...
Add in the TRILLIONS being spent to maintain and create nuclear weapons...
Preaching to the choir here. Don't even get me started.
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#204 of 267 Old 02-18-2008, 10:27 PM
 
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What is happening in the world is the substitution of vaccination for sanitation and food and other basic stuff.

In the U.S. and England, sanitation and rising living standards happened, partly, because of fear amongst the upper and middle classes. They didn't want revolution and they didn't want their children catching awful diseases that were running through the slums killing a lot of children. Servants went home to visit their families and might bring back scarlet fever or typhoid or even tuberculosis to upper-class households. If there had been a lot of effective vaccines around, would rich people have cared about living conditions? Would the Progressive movement have gotten off the ground?

On a worldwide level we have the same situation, just on a bigger scale. Only now we tend to think vaccines, combined with rather feeble attempts to keep the poor and the sick from crossing our borders.

I just don't know...
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#205 of 267 Old 02-19-2008, 12:04 AM
 
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What is happening in the world is the substitution of vaccination for sanitation and food and other basic stuff.


I may have to add that to my sig....

-Angela
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#206 of 267 Old 02-19-2008, 05:49 PM
 
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Up until about nine months of age, which is the age most often recommended for measles vaccination in developing countries. It's a bit higher in the U.S., partly because the risk of exposure is so much less.
No, the age that was recommended was 15 months, per the vaccine insert, and because the vaccine wasn't as effective if given earlier....they have since changed the age to 12 mos, because the babies are not as well protected when born to vaccinated mothers.

An MMR vaccine manufacturer states "Infants who are less than 15 months of age may fail to respond to the measles component of the vaccine due to presence in the circulation of residual measles antibody of maternal origin, the younger the infant, the lower the likelihood of seroconversion." The manufacturer goes on to advise that infants vaccinated at less than 12 months of age will have to be revaccinated after 15 months of age even though "there is some evidence to suggest that infants immunized at less than one year of age may not develop sustained antibody levels when later immunized."


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Would you drink from a barrel of rainwater?
Depends on where the barrel is and how long the water had been standing.
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#207 of 267 Old 02-19-2008, 08:04 PM
 
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No, the age that was recommended was 15 months, per the vaccine insert
In developing countries where measles incidence is high, eradication strategy typcially has been to begin with a one-time campaign involving children aged 9 months to 14 years, followed by a maintainance program with the goal of vaccinating at least 95% of each newborn cohort at 12 months of age. The recommendation is different in countries where measles incidence is low.

I'm willing to concede that twelve months, rather than nine months, may best represent the extent of significant protection from maternal antibodies. In the context of this discussion, what may be most pertinent to note is that the age group most impacted by measles is roughly between one and five years of age (I believe the median age is usually somewhere around 24 months), and it's safe to assume that maternal antibodies do not typically offer significant protection for these children (nor would they be expected to even in the absence of a vaccination program). Furthermore, if the protection offerred by maternal antibodies were compromised by virtue of the mothers' immunity having been confered by vaccination rather than natural infection, we would expect to see a rise in incidence in infants younger than twelve (or fifteen) months in countries where vaccination programs have been in place for, say, twenty or more years. Is that what we see?
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Furthermore, if the protection offerred by maternal antibodies were compromised by virtue of the mothers' immunity having been confered by vaccination rather than natural infection, we would expect to see a rise in incidence in infants younger than twelve (or fifteen) months in countries where vaccination programs have been in place for, say, twenty or more years. Is that what we see?
Bold emphasis mine below:

"The first cases of this epidemic, as state health officials have now classified it, appeared nine weeks ago. So far, they say, the disease has been confined to Jersey City, and although it has been reported in every quarter of the city, it has hit particularly hard at the young - children 15 months of age and younger.

State health investigators say they are bewildered by the measles outbreak and cannot indentify its origin or explain why 35 percent of the cases involve infants and toddlers."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A960948260
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Originally Posted by suschi View Post
State health investigators say they are bewildered by the measles outbreak and cannot indentify its origin or explain why 35 percent of the cases involve infants and toddlers.
I submit that the experts are bewildered precisely because this is so atypical of measles in vaccinated populations.
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#210 of 267 Old 02-19-2008, 08:48 PM
 
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it is interesting to watch the science unfold and the questions continue to evolve.

like, what happens to common diseases after the second- and third- generations are vaccinated for them.

on one level, who could have anticipated this?

on the other, why are they screwing around with something that is hardly understood?
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