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Gitti 03-03-2008 11:34 PM

applejuice 03-04-2008 03:22 AM

Wow! Now there is a foundation for a scientific study of two similar populations vaxed and unvaxed, and an opportunity to compare the two! Do you think the pharmaceutical houses will bite? ...I am betting, that they hope it will just go away.

RiverSky 03-04-2008 05:04 AM

Thank you for the link.

KLM99 03-04-2008 11:44 AM

This is great, thanks. For those knowledgeable about statistics, is the number of participants (about 700) statistically significant? Can anyone pick apart this study? Thanks in advance.

LavenderMae 03-04-2008 12:02 PM

Thank you for posting that!

CanidFL 03-04-2008 12:04 PM

I am having a moment here and can’t remember the difference between measles and german measles. Is one of these rubella?

Very good link! The vax kids had more problems in pretty much every category except heart murmur and whooping cough.

I did notice that 8 vax kids had autism and 0 non vax had autism.

MaryTocco 03-04-2008 12:11 PM

I have been collecting names of unvaccinated children for over 5 years and all of the families claim their children are very healthy. As I travel around the country and speak to families, I see the tragedy in the eyes of parents who's children are very ill after vaccines or have even lost a baby after routine vaccines! I get emails from the world expressing anger, hurt and discust about what our government is pushing as "safe and effective".

The time has come to join our voices in one Big message! We as parents are not blind nor stupid and we know our children better than anyone. We shall shout from the mountain top to help educate and inform unsuspecting parents about the dangers of childhood vaccines.
Since my DVD, "Are Vaccines Safe?" was released 1 1/2 years ago, over 65,000 people have viewed it and are learning how to safely protect our children, and it doesn't include vaccines! We are making a difference in the lives of babies and families every day! For more information visit
Mary Tocco

angie7 03-04-2008 12:26 PM

German measles is rubella....Very interesting article and I believe it! Everyone I know (here and on other sites and IRL) that have unvaxed kids, they are extremely healthier then those I know with vaxed kids....

kate3 03-04-2008 12:54 PM

This is great, thanks. For those knowledgeable about statistics, is the number of participants (about 700) statistically significant? Can anyone pick apart this study? Thanks in advance.
There is not enough info given to determine statistical significance, nor is there any info on what statistical analysis was run, whether the data was skewed, or how the constructs were measured (ie what constitutes "agressive behavior").

cadydid 03-04-2008 01:35 PM

What kate3 said.

The sample size is small. They did no tests of significance, which I find concerning (at best, they didn't find a statistician, at worst, they ran the tests and nothing was significant so they didn't report their p values - my guess based on the sample size is the latter).

There's no information about the groups. Are there underlying differences? It makes sense that vaccinated children see their GP more. Are they getting diagnosed more because they see the GP more? Are those parents more likely to go to the ER? Is there a difference in their attitude toward medical professionals? Are there socioeconomic factors influencing their ability to see a doctor? Is what one person sees as 'aggressive' seen by another parent as normal 3 year old behavior? There's no attempt made to model the data to tease some of these issues out.

My disdain here isn't for the underlying thoughts, but it irks me to see data misused and misrepresented. As a study, this is meaningless.

jeliphish 03-04-2008 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by KLM99 View Post
Can anyone pick apart this study? Thanks in advance.
I think there may be some holes in the study. I am no statistical expert, but I was just thinking, many of us who either delay or do not vax at all, probably do not have as many "well baby" or sick appointments that we take our children to. Most of us who take the time to research vaccinations chose alternative treatments to ailments and do not even go to the pedi if it is something minor. The study cannot without a doubt say that vaxed kids get more ear infections- if they are fully vaxed, more than likely the parents are comfortable taking the child to the doctor everytime the child gets a cough or cold. Who's to prove that the unvaxed kids in this study didn't have as many ear infections- what if they were just not diagnosed because the parents didn't believe in taking the child to the doctor for something minor?

KLM99 03-04-2008 01:52 PM

Thanks Cadydid - this is exactly what I expected. I hate that it's possible to use statistics to prove either side of any argument.

On the plus side, I could show this study to my mother-in-law and say "look! The unvaxed kids are more healthy!" and she wouldn't think to question the study - maybe she wouldn't bother me about getting vaccines!

attachedmamaof3 03-04-2008 01:58 PM

I think it's a really great start.

Unfortunately, I have to agree that it's probably not "thorough" enough to be statistically significant. (Though it is an interesting read)

Additionally, it has the stigma of being a kind of "self-report" based study which can flux depending on definition of characteristics and is notoriously unreliable.

For example, what does "healthy" mean? Give me two people and they have two different opinions/examples of how their children are healthy. My child may have a cold and still be "healthy" to my best friend, her child is "sick" with a cold.

a(TM)?Star 03-04-2008 03:29 PM

I agree that it's a start..............thanks Gitti.

AmyCarin 03-04-2008 09:32 PM

Also - I bet that the VPDs are under-diagnosed in the vaxed children or at least that it's a possibility that they are underdiagnosed. Pediatricians seem to be somewhat notorious for such phrases as, "It can't be Pertussis, she's vaccinated"

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