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#1 of 32 Old 03-23-2008, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My DH and I were wondering why the 'Right to life' ers that are opposed to stem cell research aren't up in arms about the vaccines that have aborted fetal tissue in them? I'm sure some are- but I would think they'd make a louder stink about it. We've never heard anything about it. Just wondering what your thoughts are.....
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#2 of 32 Old 03-23-2008, 08:59 PM
 
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Not touching that one with a 10 foot pole.
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#3 of 32 Old 03-23-2008, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ya, touchy subject. We were just thinking if they made a big deal about it more people would realize WHAT is in the shots. We are sad that so many people are uneducated about the ingredients.
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#4 of 32 Old 03-23-2008, 10:26 PM
 
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My DH and I were wondering why the 'Right to life' ers that are opposed to stem cell research aren't up in arms about the vaccines that have aborted fetal tissue in them? I'm sure some are- but I would think they'd make a louder stink about it. We've never heard anything about it. Just wondering what your thoughts are.....
I am Pro-Life and I do have a problem with it. As for others, I think they are just uneducated about the ingredients in vaccines.

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#5 of 32 Old 03-23-2008, 10:54 PM
 
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As for others, I think they are just uneducated about the ingredients in vaccines.

: I have talked to alot of people that are pro-life and they are stunned to find out that aborted fetal cells are in vaccines. They just plain, never knew. I think it has to do with being uneducated then just turning the other cheek.....

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#6 of 32 Old 03-24-2008, 12:01 AM
 
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My DH and I were wondering why the 'Right to life' ers that are opposed to stem cell research aren't up in arms about the vaccines that have aborted fetal tissue in them?
I AM!

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#7 of 32 Old 03-24-2008, 01:08 AM
 
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I am Pro-Life and I do have a problem with it. As for others, I think they are just uneducated about the ingredients in vaccines.
I agree. I am pro-life and hearing that aborted fetal tissue was in vaccines is what made me research them at all. I tell all my pro-life friends about it.

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#8 of 32 Old 03-24-2008, 04:43 AM
 
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Most don't know. When they find out, most don't believe you're *serious* and that it's *real* that they use aborted fetus to culture the vaccine. I think for a lot it's just too much to process.

I am totally appalled by it, and as a pro-lifer, it certainly is one of the things that changed my mind in the beginning.

I think also, that part of it is that the Catholic Church came out with a statement to the effect that since they aren't STILL aborting babies for it, it's OK until a better option comes along b/c you wouldn't want to be responsible if your kid gave a pregnant woman rubella and that resulted in CRS. On the other hand, if you feel like it makes it look like you support abortion, by all means, follow your conscience... So a lot of people just get it, because the church says it's OK, and you'd have to be really careful to not get those certain vaxes.

I was *really* surprised as a Catholic, when I read that because... Dude. That's so crap. GOD decides what happens to an unborn baby. NOT my kid's vaccination status. ESP since there's no way to tell if the vax even took, whether someone was immune, whether they're carriers of the virus, NOTHING... So I think the whole line of reasoning was an attempt by someone to look like the Church can be reasonable. I also think that the person who wrote the statement for the Church was given some *really* bad information.

So... Anyhow.

Most people that I know that are pro-life DO care about it, but a lot of them aren't sure what to do about it, if anything, and the others just don't get vaxed at all for that PLUS a variety of other reasons.

Anyhow. I think it all boils down to: Most don't believe it could POSSIBLY be true.
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#9 of 32 Old 03-24-2008, 09:15 AM
 
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There's a whole website about it: cogforlife dot com.

I agree that not a lot of people know, or even question where vax'es come from. If the doc says it's safe, they trust him/her
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#10 of 32 Old 03-24-2008, 12:31 PM
 
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Vaccines DO NOT contain aborted fetal tissues.
Some vaccine viruses are cultured on cell lines dervied forty years ago from legal abortions. The final vaccine contains the virus but not the cells that it was cultured on.
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#11 of 32 Old 03-24-2008, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Snowflower View Post
My DH and I were wondering why the 'Right to life' ers that are opposed to stem cell research aren't up in arms about the vaccines that have aborted fetal tissue in them? I'm sure some are- but I would think they'd make a louder stink about it. We've never heard anything about it. Just wondering what your thoughts are.....

There are no fetal cells in vaccines. Once the viruses are harvested, they are separated from the cells they were grown in and purified so that no cell culture is in the vaccine; there may be some random bits of cellular debris but no cells and certainly no tissue.
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#12 of 32 Old 03-24-2008, 10:45 PM
 
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But its still the simple fact that at one time, this vaccine was cultured on aborted fetal cells.

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#13 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 10:55 AM
 
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Most people, pro-life or not, have utterly no idea that vaccines are made from aborted fetal tissue cell lines.

I personally have had TWO pediatricians (one in a Catholic practice!) who did not know this, and were stunned to find out.

Here's a good article on the history and origins of it:

http://www.cogforlife.org/thevaccinationquestion.htm
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#14 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 11:19 AM
 
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Vaccines DO NOT contain aborted fetal tissues.
Some vaccine viruses are cultured on cell lines dervied forty years ago from legal abortions. The final vaccine contains the virus but not the cells that it was cultured on.
Thanks for clarifying that!

Not sure if I want to jump in, but here goes!

I'm pro-life.

Does anyone know if the aborted babies whose tissue was used were aborted for the purpose of making vaccines?

If not, than perhaps using the fetal tissue is similar to harvesting organs from someone who is brain dead for organ transplants.

Just a thought!
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#15 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 03:28 PM
 
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Does anyone know if the aborted babies whose tissue was used were aborted for the purpose of making vaccines?
The answer is yes.

Read the above article.
Excerpt here:

Quote:
“This fetus was chosen by Dr. Sven Card, specifically for this purpose [of a vaccine culture]....Both parents are known, and unfortunately, for the story, they are married to each other, still alive and well, and living in Stockholm, presumably. The abortion was done because they felt they had too many children."
The numbers in the names of the cell lines (e.g. "WI-38") refers to the number of the abortions performed to get that cell line - i.e. "WI-38" was abortion #38 performed to get that particular cell line.
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#16 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 03:41 PM
 
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Vaccines DO NOT contain aborted fetal tissues.
Some vaccine viruses are cultured on cell lines dervied forty years ago from legal abortions. The final vaccine contains the virus but not the cells that it was cultured on.
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There are no fetal cells in vaccines. Once the viruses are harvested, they are separated from the cells they were grown in and purified so that no cell culture is in the vaccine; there may be some random bits of cellular debris but no cells and certainly no tissue.
They still have aborted fetal DNA in them. I don't see how it matters if it's a whole cell or not.

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#17 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 03:44 PM
 
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If not, than perhaps using the fetal tissue is similar to harvesting organs from someone who is brain dead for organ transplants.
Not the same at all. Those babies did not consent for their tissues to be used. And for reasons that I can't state w/o violating the UA, the mother can not give consent either.

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#18 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 07:21 PM
 
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They still have aborted fetal DNA in them. I don't see how it matters if it's a whole cell or not.
Again, the viruses are purified from the cell culture. Vaccines DO NOT contain whole cells from culture. If they do not contain cells how do they contain human DNA?
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#19 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 07:41 PM
 
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Again, the viruses are purified from the cell culture. Vaccines DO NOT contain whole cells from culture. If they do not contain cells how do they contain human DNA?
I don't know. Why don't you contact Merck and ask them.

Varivax Product Insert
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Each 0.5 mL dose contains the following:.....residual components of MRC-5 cells including DNA and protein;

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#20 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 08:37 PM
 
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Residual cell parts or DNA is very different from saying "Whole cells or tissues", although you did not say those exact terms as others have.
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#21 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 10:11 PM
 
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Residual cell parts or DNA is very different from saying "Whole cells or tissues", although you did not say those exact terms as others have.
It might be "very different" scientifically, but morally it doesn't matter. Not to me anyway. I know many people that feel the same too.

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#22 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 10:16 PM
 
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It might be "very different" scientifically, but morally it doesn't matter. Not to me anyway. I know many people that feel the same too.
Yes, I agree.

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#23 of 32 Old 03-25-2008, 11:40 PM
 
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Again, the viruses are purified from the cell culture. Vaccines DO NOT contain whole cells from culture. If they do not contain cells how do they contain human DNA?
Your above (bolded) statement is completely erroneous. It's not even up for debate.

Vaccines have to be cultured, that is "grown," in a whole cell medium. Vaccines are made from either animal cell (chick, bovine, porcine) or human cell medium. If it is a human cell medium, the human cells (yes, the whole cell) come only from aborted human fetuses. This is the way the cell culture technology works.

The way it works is all explained right there in the article (by an M.D., no less) that I posted.

Furthermore, there will be, in a few short years, no alternatives to vaccines made with aborted human fetal tissue, as ALL pharma companies are switching to that platform for vaccines as well as many other applications.

You should probably take the time to read it.

Relevant excerpt regarding cell culture technology to produce vaccines:

Quote:
"..why is it necessary? Unlike bacteria, which are complete, unicellular organisms which can be grown in "nutrient broths" - soups, essentially, made up to the liking of the bacteria in question - viruses are "incomplete organisms." They consist of only genetic material, DNA or RNA, encased in a protein coat. Although they have their genetic identity, they lack the cellular machinery to reproduce themselves, the cellular machinery that bacteria and all living cells more complicated than bacteria, up to and including ourselves, possess. So, a virus cannot, in general, grow and eventually reproduce itself by simply being "fed" the way a bacteria or a baby can. They need to usurp the machinery of some cell. And that's exactly what they do: the virus attaches itself to the wall or membrane of a cell (different viruses have preferences for different kinds of cells, just as different bacteria have preferences for different nutrient broths, and my children have preference for peanut butter and jelly to the exclusion of everything else) and literally injects its own genetic material into the cell. That genetic material usurps the cell's machinery to manufacture copies of itself, and, when the number of virus copies gets large enough, they pop the cell like an overblown balloon and the now liberated virus particles float around to latch on to another cell and start the whole process again. Thus, viruses, unlike bacteria, must be grown in cell cultures.


If you look at the package insert for the varicella (chickenpox) vaccine your child received, you find that this product also used the "WI-38 human diploid cell culture" as well as another human diploid cell culture, "MRC-5," to grow the virus used in the vaccine. The moral issue is as follows: the WI-38 and MRC-5 human diploid cell lines used for viral culture in the rubella and varicella vaccines, as well as the RA 27/3 rubella viral strain which is the virus cultured for the rubella vaccine, are derived from babies aborted decades ago.

And this regarding the future of the use of aborted fetal tissue cell lines - the PER C6 line, in particular:

Quote:
"The abortion was performed, cells were procured from the aborted child's retina, frozen, and ten years later thawed for development as the PER C6 line. The researcher from University of Leiden who oversaw the project noted in his discussion of the line's development,

"[a]nd then the pharmaceutical industry standard. I realize this sounds a bit commercial, but PER C6 were (sic) made for that particular purpose. Also, as far as I know, more than 50 different companies have taken license for PER C6."

The PER C6 cell line has been expanded onto a commercial scale by the Dutch biotechnology company Crucell NV as one of the company's two "broadly applicable human technology platforms" for developing pharmaceuticals.

PER C6, according to Crucell NV, will be used as a manufacturing system on which a wide range of biopharmaceuticals can be developed and manufactured, such as vaccines, antibodies, therapeutic proteins and gene therapy products.
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#24 of 32 Old 03-26-2008, 01:39 AM
 
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the question is:

Would we have this vaccine had the abortion not been performed?

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#25 of 32 Old 03-26-2008, 02:35 AM
 
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the question is:

Would we have this vaccine had the abortion not been performed?
The question is, further, Do the ends justify the means?

Although, I have heard before that Japan has a rubella vaccine which was manufactured without the use of aborted fetal cell lines. I'd have to do more research to dig up where I found that, though.

I am not a big believer in the whole the ends justify the means philosophy, personally, so, even if it WAS impossible to have that vaccine w/o the aborted fetal cell line, I'd still not be OK with it.
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#26 of 32 Old 03-26-2008, 09:50 AM
 
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Would we have this vaccine had the abortion not been performed?
As the previous poster said, the Japanese were able to make a rubella vaccine w/o it so I imagine you could make all the others a different way too. The Japanese swapped the cheek of an infected adult to get the virus instead of aborting 27 babies, finally finding an infected baby on the 27th try.

Also as the previous poster said, I don't see how that matters. The ends don't justify the means.

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#27 of 32 Old 03-26-2008, 10:07 AM
 
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StacyL,
Yes, the cells are used in the propagation of the viruses, then the viruses are purified from the cells. And as Cloak pointed out from an insert some residual cellular fragments may be in the final product.
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#28 of 32 Old 03-26-2008, 05:29 PM
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I did NOT KNOW until I was reading these boards that human embryonic cells were involved in any way with making vaccines.

Now that I know, it presents a real moral dilemma. I would suspect that the vast majority of "pro-lifers" that do vaccinate have either no clue, or they have made the decision that the benefit of the vaccine to their child outweighs the cost to another child that died 40+ years ago.
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#29 of 32 Old 03-26-2008, 06:56 PM
 
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Sorry, I don't split hairs. Regardless if the whole tissue is used, cultured, whatever, the end is the same.

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#30 of 32 Old 03-26-2008, 06:58 PM
 
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I did NOT KNOW until I was reading these boards that human embryonic cells were involved in any way with making vaccines.

Now that I know, it presents a real moral dilemma. I would suspect that the vast majority of "pro-lifers" that do vaccinate have either no clue, or they have made the decision that the benefit of the vaccine to their child outweighs the cost to another child that died 40+ years ago.
Trust me, they have no clue. If they have heard of this, they often deny it.

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