Autism and no vaccinations - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Do you know of a child who has developed Autism, but had never been vaccinated? Just wondering if you know of any.
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#2 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 04:04 PM
 
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No, but this thread may be of interest:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=538469

Also remember that other things can factor in also. For example, if a child was not vaccinated but his mother received the Rhogam shot during and after pg (and then BF'd), that could have caused problems since Rhogam did (still does?) have mercury.

Keep in mind that there are quite possibly other environmental triggers (mercury from eating fish, mercury in the air from coal burning, mercury dental fillings in the mother, chemicals and pesticides, etc)

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#3 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 04:05 PM
 
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I do.
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#4 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 04:51 PM
 
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For me, the real question is, do we know of any children with autism who have had a chance to develop naturally with an intact immune system?

-Those mothers would have had no medications, shots or antibiotics during pregnancy or birth, and no other medical interventions (pain meds, or pitocin, etc.) duringa vaginal birth.

-The children would have received no vaccines, medicines, or formula and would have exclusively breastfed for at least six months.

These children would have had their gut flora in their digestive tract fully developed as it was meant to and should be very strong.

It isn't just the vaccines that is making our children immunocompromised. It is modern hospital birth.

::: Just another WAHM using this forum to put off picking up toys and cleaning my house.
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#5 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I unfortunately had to be hospitalized in L&D for 2 days because I came down with a kidney infection at about 28 weeks. I remember thinking that the hospital birthing experience wasn't for me as I could hear things going on down the hall. But, at that point I had to be hooked up to IV with antibiotics and dehydrating bag (sorry, I don't remember the exact name). From what I understand the dextrose solution in the bags contain aluminum. Is this true? I had a home birth.

Also, I just had my baby get her 2 shot. It was the DTaP, and from what I understand it has no aluminum, but has <0.3 of mercury -- great! I discussed my concern with my doctor as she pretty much brushed me off. She has had HIB before, but I think I may be done with shots for good.

I'm thinking, the antibiotics crossed the placenta and disrupted my baby's digestive system?
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#6 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 05:33 PM
 
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The DTaP brands available do have aluminum in them. I found the Dr Sears Vaccine Book to be good on the vaccine ingredients but make sure its the updated version.

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#7 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 06:39 PM
 
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Oh great...I had the rogham (sp?) shot during and after pregnancy. Plus, I am breastfeeding! None of my others children have autism and I received the shot with them too....but, I did not bf them as long as I am bf'ing this one (one yo). I thought I was doing something good by bf'ing him...should I be worried??? (no vaxes for this one, though)

Stacey
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#8 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 06:47 PM
 
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http://www.mothering.com/discussions...light=vaccines

Please take a look at this thread. The exact same question was asked not long ago in the special needs forum. Yes, there are unvaccinated (and protected from everything possible) kids with autism. Some of them have parents on this board who replied to the above thread. Autism is genetic. There are 139 replies (I think) and lots of examples of unvaccinated autistic kids. There are also examples of parents who did everything "right" (no vaccines, no antibiotics, exclusive breastfeeding, organic food, etc. etc.) and yet the child still ended up with autism. It's irritating to see parents "blamed" but I think it's because we want to think that it couldn't happen to us if we just do the right things. That thought has already been expressed on this thread. If you want the truth read the thread referenced above.

I have one autistic child and one typically developing. They were twins so had the same birth. But they were fraternal, have different genetics, and so one is autistic and the other isn't. Twin studies on autism are interesting. A fraternal twin is no more likely to be autistic if one twin is on the spectrum than any other sibling born to those parents (any child's rate is around 25% if a sibling has autism). Same birth and pregnancy. No increased risk. With identical twins there is a well over 90% chance that if one twin is autistic the other will also be on the spectrum. Genetics plays a huge role in autism.

Is your kiddo autistic or are you worried about that? If so you might check out the special needs board--lots of us there!

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#9 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 06:48 PM
 
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yes, I do.
I know a woman that has 3 children- 1 was vaxed and is fine, 1 is vaxed and has autism, and her youngest received no vaxes and has autism.

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#10 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 07:35 PM
 
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I personally believe it is a combination of genetic and environmental factors. I think there are genes that make people more suspectable to autism and that certain environmental factors can impeed/alter processes within the brain causing autism and turning those genes on. The environmental factors have really become an increasing burden on the immune system as the autism rate rises. For example think of all the irradation, pesticides, antibiotics, hormones, additional vaxes, etc. that are now present in our environment and food that weren't there 10, 20, or 30 years ago.

I don't think vaxes are the sole source of autism but I think they're contributing to it.
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#11 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 08:13 PM
 
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One reason vaccines stand out as a cause for some parents may be that vaccines come in bunches.

We breathe, eat, play with toys and drink water sort of gradually. For most babies vaccines are one of the only times that a lot of toxic stuff is dumped into the system all at one time. So a child may be on the verge from a generally toxic environment and an inadequate diet, but then 6 or 8 or 9 vaccines at once come in as the last piece in the wall and end up looking like the main cause. Would a child have been able to dodge the diagnosis without the vaccines? Maybe, maybe not. If things are bad enough in the general environment, the diagnosis might be inevitable, but somewhat delayed.

On the other hand, for some children, without the vaccines, they might still have severe health problems, but muddle along, somewhat functionally.
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#12 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 08:51 PM
 
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#13 of 50 Old 09-02-2008, 09:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by xmasbaby7 View Post
For me, the real question is, do we know of any children with autism who have had a chance to develop naturally with an intact immune system?

-Those mothers would have had no medications, shots or antibiotics during pregnancy or birth, and no other medical interventions (pain meds, or pitocin, etc.) duringa vaginal birth.

-The children would have received no vaccines, medicines, or formula and would have exclusively breastfed for at least six months.

These children would have had their gut flora in their digestive tract fully developed as it was meant to and should be very strong.

It isn't just the vaccines that is making our children immunocompromised. It is modern hospital birth.

I agree with this. I do believe that my daughter's type-1 diabetes was caused by a pre-disposition/sensitivity added with a vaccine injury she had to a two-in-one combo shot, but it's also been mentioned to me that the epidural and/or the meds they used for my vaginal birth could have zapped her pancreas... I'll never find out, but I really want to hear more on what you think. It's all very interesting. And how the HECK can I get the guts to have an at-home birth with no meds for my next baby???

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#14 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 09:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stacey05 View Post
Oh great...I had the rogham (sp?) shot during and after pregnancy. Plus, I am breastfeeding! None of my others children have autism and I received the shot with them too....but, I did not bf them as long as I am bf'ing this one (one yo). I thought I was doing something good by bf'ing him...should I be worried??? (no vaxes for this one, though)

Stacey
There is a mercury free version also. I had this from my midwife. Call up your doc/midwife and get the brand name so you can look it up online.

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http://www.mothering.com/discussions...light=vaccines

Autism is genetic. There are 139 replies (I think) and lots of examples of unvaccinated autistic kids. There are also examples of parents who did everything "right" (no vaccines, no antibiotics, exclusive breastfeeding, organic food, etc. etc.) and yet the child still ended up with autism. It's irritating to see parents "blamed" but I think it's because we want to think that it couldn't happen to us if we just do the right things. That thought has already been expressed on this thread. If you want the truth read the thread referenced above.
Wow. Just because a person believes vaccines caused autism does not mean the parent is being blamed. There are also thousands of parents who believe there children were perfectly healthy, got their shots then a few months later had full blown autism. You can not discount these parents and what they know to be true. Yes, autism may be genetic in some cases and enviromental in others. No one really knows the truth until they actually study this.
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#15 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 10:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sbgrace View Post
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...light=vaccines

Please take a look at this thread. The exact same question was asked not long ago in the special needs forum. Yes, there are unvaccinated (and protected from everything possible) kids with autism. Some of them have parents on this board who replied to the above thread. Autism is genetic. There are 139 replies (I think) and lots of examples of unvaccinated autistic kids. There are also examples of parents who did everything "right" (no vaccines, no antibiotics, exclusive breastfeeding, organic food, etc. etc.) and yet the child still ended up with autism. It's irritating to see parents "blamed" but I think it's because we want to think that it couldn't happen to us if we just do the right things. That thought has already been expressed on this thread. If you want the truth read the thread referenced above.

I have one autistic child and one typically developing. They were twins so had the same birth. But they were fraternal, have different genetics, and so one is autistic and the other isn't. Twin studies on autism are interesting. A fraternal twin is no more likely to be autistic if one twin is on the spectrum than any other sibling born to those parents (any child's rate is around 25% if a sibling has autism). Same birth and pregnancy. No increased risk. With identical twins there is a well over 90% chance that if one twin is autistic the other will also be on the spectrum. Genetics plays a huge role in autism.

Is your kiddo autistic or are you worried about that? If so you might check out the special needs board--lots of us there!
Personally, I don't blame parents AT ALL. I blame the obstetricians and pediatricians who are failing American families with poor health policy.

I completely agree that genetics plays a huge component as to whom will injured by vaccines, who will show symptoms without vaccination.

But I read that thread you linked to a while ago, too, and it no way covers all of the factors I discuss in my first post in this thread.

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#16 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 10:33 AM
 
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Personally, I don't blame parents AT ALL. I blame the obstetricians and pediatricians who are failing American families with poor health policy.

I completely agree that genetics plays a huge component as to whom will injured by vaccines, who will show symptoms without vaccination.

But I read that thread you linked to a while ago, too, and it no way covers all of the factors I discuss in my first post in this thread.
The issue I have is your list...you write it as if the "to blame" person--OB/ped, whatever--had just done what you listed autism would not have happened. It's just not true.
Did you read reply 25 on your list? What was wrong with non-vaccinated, breastfed to three, no injections/meds during pregnancy, home birthed, third pregnancy (first two produced typical kids).

Some will then say it must be mom's vaccines as a child...enter no vaccine's as a child mom number 35.


There have been threads in the past with even more "compelling" stories of moms who having had an autistic child bought into all those theories and even when beyond what you mentioned and....still had another autistic child. This is just the most recent.

I do agree that autism is a mix of genetic and environment (sometimes at least--not always) but as I said if you want to "blame" pregnancy, birth, and post-birth environment the twin studies thing blows that away in my opinion. If the pregnancy/birth/post-birth were that important the would at least be a small increase in fraternal twins both having autism over other siblings in unrelated pregnancies. The rate, though, is the same. It just doesn't make sense/match with science. The environmental factors that are "causes" for most of these kids aren't the ones you mentioned. I will write more about those factors later.

And what bothers me about that is that it gives a person a false sense of security at the least. I really believed that I couldn't have an autistic child if I did the right things...even my OB told me that exclusively breastfed kids can't have autism.

CanidFL (and xmasbaby)...most of the kids with regression probably have underlying metabolic conditions (like mitochondrial disorder) that cause regression. There are plenty of kids like mine who regress around 18 months to two years without vaccines. I guess had my son regressed after vaccines I would have thought he was damaged by them too. Turns out he has a mitochondrial condition as do possibly 25% of people on the spectrum. Another large percent probably have genes that cause them to have issues with glutimate processing. Glutimate is in all protein foods. Not much you can do to avoid protein. I saw a study with fetuses later diagnosed with autism there was a much higher circulating testosterone level in those babies in pregnancy in every one of the later autism but none of the not autism group had high levels. Nothing you can do about that either but it is a pregnancy environmental impact. My point is I agree autism is often partly genetic. But the environmental factors that impact the majority (not all) as "causes" along with genes are much, much bigger than pollution/gut health/vaccines. We don't have as much control as we like to believe.

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#17 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 10:40 AM
 
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We don't have as much control as we like to believe.
amen to that
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#18 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 10:41 AM
 
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I know 3 and 2 fit this

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-Those mothers would have had no medications, shots or antibiotics during pregnancy or birth, and no other medical interventions (pain meds, or pitocin, etc.) duringa vaginal birth.

-The children would have received no vaccines, medicines, or formula and would have exclusively breastfed for at least six months.

These children would have had their gut flora in their digestive tract fully developed as it was meant to and should be very strong.
perfectly, in fact even MOM wasn't vax and was born without drugs at home. Autism happens, no-one knows why yet (they're getting closer). By all means don't vax if you feel it is a risk but do not think for a second that not vaxing is a magic bullet against autism, because it is not.
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#19 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 10:47 AM
 
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We don't have as much control as we like to believe.
ITA with sbgrace. The part I quoted is what I hope everyone who reads this thread keeps in mind. I believe that my DS1 has Asperger's. I also believe that my father had Asperger's. It seems to be just another genetic trait in my family. I think there are plenty of reasons to decide against vaccinations. I don't think that Autism needs to be included among them. I, personally, find that offensive.

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#20 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 11:09 AM
 
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I think there are plenty of reasons to decide against vaccinations. I don't think that Autism needs to be included among them. I, personally, find that offensive.
I'm sorry you feel that way and I don't mean to be offensive. Many mothers including me have autism on their list of reasons not to vax. It's not the MAIN reason but definitaly a factor. I guess I could turn the tables and say people who refuse to see a connection between vaccines and autism are highly offensive the parents that believe vaccines triggered autism in their child.
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#21 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 11:33 AM
 
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I think i see what lotusdebi means. My dad has an aspergers diagnosis, i am not on the scale but towards that direction - when traits blur into conditions is anyone's guess - and my DP is a little that way (though more like me than Dad).

It's difficult for me to think of not vaxing as a way to avoid at all costs my child turning out like either of the men i love most in my life, kwim? They are wonderful beautiful people with a different kind of intelligence and way of looking at the world. The world doesn't need less people "like them".
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#22 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 11:47 AM
 
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In looking at toxicity and its impact on health, I think we would do well to broaden our horizons. Toxicity is more than just acute exposures, although if big enough, they can certainly be devastating. More insidious is the toxicity that slowly accumulates over the decades, the nasty cleaning products we used for decades before we knew better (me), the weird food chemicals that we never paid attention to (also me), the things in our ambient environments that were out of our control (secondhand smoke in my childhood was a biggie in my case) and things we just never considered, for me in particular, the amalgam fillings I got in my early teens. At some point, the individual can be extremely vulnerable to any additional insult, but to simply blame the final straw is to miss the bigger picture.

The other side of dealing with toxicity is addressed very nicely in this thread:
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=406983

It's the Nutrition/Immunology 101 sticky in the Immunity section of the Vaccination Archives. Our bodies need nutrients in order to do the work of excreting the toxins we _do_ come in contact with. I did a miserable job of this in my own life until recently.

So, do I blame myself for my kids' mercury toxicity? No, but I am responsible, even though I didn't understand what was happening and what the ramifications would be. Just like I'm responsible for fixing it to the best of my ability. I don't think there needs to be blame, but there's much value to be gained by looking at as many factors as we can and doing what we can, and after that, accepting that there are things outside our ability to control.

I'm certainly not saying that all autism is an expression of toxicity, or even most--I have no way of knowing how much. But I think that discussing the part of autism that is related to toxicity is helpful, for us and our children and our children's children.
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#23 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 11:49 AM
 
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I thought the rate of occurrence is what we were talking about here, and now this seems to be going into the direction of cause.

Cause is far too complex, IMO, to be understood at this time. Especially when autism is such an umbrella diagnosis with such far-reaching and varying traits.

I still feel confident in saying that the rate of occurrence would be less in the natural approach of pregnancy, health, and birth. It is a study that should be done to see if those cases that appear in this group share more similar traits than the larger autism community as a whole.

I think whenever we have large umbrella diagnoses, we need to break the umbrella into smaller more specific groups in order to improve treatment and identify causes.

None of this is black and white. This is one of the most important detective stories of modern medicine right now.

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#24 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 11:52 AM
 
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I choose to see my child's "autistic traits" as aspects of him to accept and cherish as I do everything else about him, rather than negatives that are to be regretted or somehow cured.

I should probably just say YEAH THAT to GoBecGo and leave it at that.

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#25 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 01:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by xmasbaby7 View Post
For me, the real question is, do we know of any children with autism who have had a chance to develop naturally with an intact immune system?

-Those mothers would have had no medications, shots or antibiotics during pregnancy or birth, and no other medical interventions (pain meds, or pitocin, etc.) duringa vaginal birth.

-The children would have received no vaccines, medicines, or formula and would have exclusively breastfed for at least six months.

These children would have had their gut flora in their digestive tract fully developed as it was meant to and should be very strong.

It isn't just the vaccines that is making our children immunocompromised. It is modern hospital birth.

Yes, actually I do. The mom wasn't vaxed either, was born at home with no medication, has never eaten fast food (seriously she hasn't), she has lived her entire life eating a mostly raw fruits and veggies diet and they grew most of their own food, she also doesn't believe in drs so I'm not sure if she has ever even been on any type of western medication. Her oldest son in autistic.

Whoever said that we don't have as much control as we think is absolutely right.

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#26 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 03:40 PM
 
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I choose to see my child's "autistic traits" as aspects of him to accept and cherish as I do everything else about him, rather than negatives that are to be regretted or somehow cured.
It's sad that you should feel attacked, here or elsewhere, for your understanding of your child. I strongly feel parents know their children best--not a radical idea, of course. The discussion of toxicity and how it affects us and our kids shouldn't diminish your experience or your child. Somehow it seems like we should be able to recognize and respond appropriately to all the reasons for autistic traits, whether inborn or exogenous.
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#27 of 50 Old 09-03-2008, 07:01 PM
 
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Yes. As well as autistic kids who were homebirthed, who eat all organic, who have never had any western medications, etc.

There is no recipe to avoiding autism. Having a chance to develop a perfect immune system doesn't change the wonderful tendency of children to take after their families in how they develop and think.

Edited to add: This theory (vax, avoid xyz and no autism!) also starts from the position that autism spectrum conditions are automatically something to be avoided at all costs, and always a terrible tragedy for child and family. That is not true. Autistic adults can be wonderful, successful, happy individuals who bring something to this world that others cannot, in the way they process and live in the world. They can be unhappy, difficult to deal with people too but so can many people not on the spectrum.
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#28 of 50 Old 09-04-2008, 04:33 AM
 
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Autistic adults can be wonderful, successful, happy individuals who bring something to this world that others cannot, in the way they process and live in the world. They can be unhappy, difficult to deal with people too but so can many people not on the spectrum.
Amen!
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#29 of 50 Old 09-04-2008, 12:32 PM
 
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Just a thought... there is no research that really suggests this but has anyone thought of a link between ultrasound and autism? As use of u/s has soared so has autism. There have been several studies that notes the brain develops differently after an u/s. The Yale study with the rats proved that even when the cells are not heated (used the same u/s as is used prenatally) the neurons in the brain were different.
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#30 of 50 Old 09-04-2008, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ZoeyZoo View Post
Just a thought... there is no research that really suggests this but has anyone thought of a link between ultrasound and autism? As use of u/s has soared so has autism. There have been several studies that notes the brain develops differently after an u/s. The Yale study with the rats proved that even when the cells are not heated (used the same u/s as is used prenatally) the neurons in the brain were different.
There is research showing rising rates of autism along with everything that has come about in recent years, more or less. You what's fallen? Rates of mental retardation diagnoses. Last I heard, there was no cure or surefire way to prevent MR, so my feeling is that those kids are getting re-classified, the same way that kids who used to be "weird" or "eccentric" are now kids with Asperger or PDD. Note: I am not saying that these kids are being diagnosed wrongly, only that before you look at the rate increase you have to take out the change caused by re-classification of kids and diagnosis of kids who would never have been identified in the past.

My husband had an auntie (related to his grandad) who lived to be over 100. Back when dd1 was diagnosed, she told us about her brother, who had been just like dd1. She described autism as perfectly as you would find it in a textbook. DD1 is the way she is because it is who she is, and it is part of our family legacy, in a way. I can guarantee you that my husband's great-great-uncle was not vaccinated, born in a hospital or exposed to ultrasound, and that if he ever got standard medical care it was rarely. I never met him, but everyone in the family grew up knowing stories about him, and they all match up. He was autistic.
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