Parents Not Allowed Into Homeschool Classes At The Museum - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 47 Old 12-15-2010, 12:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MommaCrystal View Post

Leaving my child doesn't give me a breather either.  It's a children's museum.  There is no space for adults.  Parents stand in the hallway or sit on the stairs until their children come out. It isn't like I can really kick back with a book or anything. You could go to another part of the museum with younger kids.  But there is no way for the teacher to contact a parent if there were an issue.  There is no sign in or out process.  Children are just released from the room to anyone or no one waiting outside. 

 

I think drop-off classes can be a wonderful thing.  I wouldn't be comfortable with a class like this that had a no parents allowed policy.  Pre-school, co-op, dance, etc are all regularly-scheduled classes that generally have emergency contact info and release policies.  While the museum may have a PA system to notify parents in the event of an emergency, the fact that they release young children without making sure they are with the appropriate adult is a red flag for me.  I think that a no parents policy makes sense for classes that are regular events, where you get to know the teachers and other staff.  For infrequent classes, like this museum is offering, I would not be comfortable being told I was not allowed to observe a class that my child was in.  


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#32 of 47 Old 12-15-2010, 05:56 PM
 
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I think for me the issue is less that they don't allow parents in and more that it seems from what you've described that their safety policies are incredibly lacking.  My 5 yo takes two classes - one's at the local YMCA and the other is at a local Nature Center.  Both allow parents to stay if they wish and both have very defined drop-off/pick-up and emergency contact type stuff.  I wouldn't be comfortable taking him to a class that didn't have those structures in place.

 

Based upon some responses here I'm getting the idea that perhaps I'm a bit odd.  Both classes last two hours each and I've dropped of my son for both w/out any issue.  I have two younger children that would not mix well with the waiting.  I get the feeling with the class at the YMCA that I'm one of only maybe two or three parents who do this, but it seems silly to hang around there and try to keep my not quite 3yo and 1yo from raising too much of a ruckus.  Sometimes he's been a bit timid about being left, but when we come to pick him up he's having a blast.  Most of the time, though, he's adamant that we are not to stay.  shrug.gif Go with your gut.

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#33 of 47 Old 12-17-2010, 11:37 AM
 
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My DD is a young K {4yo} and doesn't go to any classes that I can't attend with her. She barely started agreeing to sit at storytime by herself while I'm browsing in the kids section of the library. Just a a rule, I wouldn't do anything with her that I can't be there to help her if she needs it. That includes Girl Scouts even - I function as her troop leader and she's a troop of one.

 

That's the whole point of HSing - helping your child learn with one-on-one attention. If I wanted to have someone else to teach her something without my involvement I'd send her to school.


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#34 of 47 Old 12-17-2010, 06:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Starflower View Post

 

OP - It also sounds like you are concerned about the lack of sign-in and sign-out which I could understand. You could ask the staff to address this. Also, most museums have a PA system and they should be able to call you back to the classroom via the PA system if they needed you. If you are unsure how they would handle emergencies, I would ask them how they would handle things. Or just wait a while before signing up for a class like this.



This is what I was thinking. I'm having trouble telling if you're upset specifically about this, or if it's both this and the fact that your child is just not ready to be without you in a room full of strangers. If it's the first, see if that can be addressed. If it's both, then I would just wait a year and try again. At age 5 my DD would definitely NOT have been okay with it. By the time she turned 6 she was fine for things like that. :)

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#35 of 47 Old 12-18-2010, 09:56 PM
 
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I think the sign in and out issues should be addressed. I feel that is the real issues.

 

I am going to get flamed but my son is 16 and doing a college program and I see a real need for parents to not be helicopter parents.Many of the parents that I ran into these programs were more likely to be helicopter parents. At 5 there is a range of development and their should be movement to short period with out mom around. I don't think 8 hours a day is necessarily best. At 5 -8 range if the child cannot separate then it should be a goal. I would ask seriously if I wasn't created the positive balance of pudding independence and interdependence.

 

I am not a complete unschooler or classical. I am a mix batched. But I think it is good for our kids to explore without us so they can learn how to question and ask questions. Figure and discover things on their own and with their peers. Even though we have and had structure (because that is what some kids needs) I do think there is value on self teaching and the gaining from knowledge from someone else.

 

What parents often ask in these classes are not what the kids want to learn. They aren't their questions so they miss learning what they want and need. They can feel "less" or not learn HOW to ask for themselves. They do not learn to trust their capabilities.

 

One example that I saw with was and an eagle program. This was a mixed parent child group. The parents had their questions they were fascinated and I saw many kids wanted to focus on the gross stuff.....then influenced (often negatively) by the parents reactions. I feel this is counter productive to learning. They were following the adults lead and no room to explore their curiosities. Parents were to afraid the child would learn the wrong stuff or miss that what the Eagle's diet was. My children learned about how pesticides almost killed eagles off...they didn't focus on the food chain or diet -much. They questioned that later or they connected the dots when we learned about other animals and the food chain and webs.

 

This is a food for thought video about our roll in teaching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXxYgpQhsrU

 

Another flame moment here, but I make reservations for cars. I have parents call in because their children have not learned how to themselves. These are 20-30 somethings that don't know how to make car reservations, hotel reservations, et. Go to colleges and you see young people who have been crippled because the gradual process of teaching independence, there for making mistakes on their own has been denied.This is harmful in the long run.  Now that she has decided to go to school (and my son) they both have learned how to question and follow their interest further.  My 

 

Teaching independence is important and can make your child feel good about themselves. A few years ago my dd did a Mother's Day advent. One of the activities was they held hands in a circle and told one reason they loved their mom ---but the catch was they couldn't say what anyone else did. This was a group of 20 girls and my dd was last. The leader joked with her daughter about doing her laundry. These girls said everything their mom's did for them. My dd was disturbed because I no longer did many if not most of those things for her all the time. When it got her her there was a pause then she said, "I love my mom because she taught me how to do my own laundry and cook if I want." Later I got a hug and a thank you for making her a capable person.

 

I do think there is a balance to raising independent/interdependence kids. I think AP and homeschooling is great but at the same time I think we need to make sure we are loving not smothering or hampering their growth. And yes, there seems to be a disproportionate of the homeschooled kids in my son's program that seem hampered by over involvement in their child's education.

 

I did not homeschool to learn with my children -- that was just a natural side effect of homeschooling.  I homeschooled to give them the best education.  I homeschooled so I could grow with my children and to make sure they grew strong and thirsting for more knowledge, while knowing I am not able to give them it all....but help them find ways to get it themselves. I have had to grow and learn that if I am not careful I place my fears into my children, with will harm them more than help them.  In the traditional school environment, I didn't learn how to take risk.  I still struggle with that.  But we actively work so our kids will learn to push those boundries and take risk. 

 

A friend of mine is sending me May Contain Nuts by John O'Farrell.  Because of discussions we have had. 

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#36 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 07:47 AM
 
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Marsupial mom...no flames from me.  I agree with much of what you said. 

 

However, the thing I got from the Op was the museum was making it mandatory that parents do not attend programs with their 5 year old.

 

There is a difference between thinking things are a good idea in general and legislating it.  You may think it is a good idea that 5 year olds learn to separate from their parents - but should you make a rule that says they have to separate  or may not participate?  

 

As per whether or not a 5 year should separate from their mother or father - I think it is up to the 5 year old and their parents.  Some kids are ready at 5 and some are not - I do not think "not being ready at 5" is a sign of future dependancy issues.  5 is still quite young.

 

 

 

 

 

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#37 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MommaCrystal View Post

My understanding is they don't allow parents because the first time they did it the parents talked too much.  The instructors didn't know how to control the crowd so they took the parents out.



This has happened to us MANY times in the past....even recently. Someone will organize a homeschool tour or class somewhere, and the parents want to do all their own teaching/interacting with their kids during the tour or workshop. We went on a group trip at the museum for the RI School of Design, and many of the parents were so RUDE....constantly chit-chatting amongst themselves and with their children while the guide was trying to give a very informative tour. It's no wonder people often think homeschoolers are socially inept, when the parents don't even have a clue.

 

I agree with Dar. It's not the teacher's responsibility to control the parents.

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#38 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 08:26 AM
 
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But I find it completely ok for someone to say if your child can not do ABC then they cannot participate.

 

Also, your unable to seperate child is not the only child in the room. Your presence can be ruining the learning experience of other children  who are more ready for that activity.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Marsupial mom...no flames from me. I agree with much of what you said.

 

However, the thing I got from the Op was the museum was making it mandatory that parents do not attend programs with their 5 year old.

 

There is a difference between thinking things are a good idea in general and legislating it. You may think it is a good idea that 5 year olds learn to separate from their parents - but should you make a rule that says they have to separate or may not participate?

 

As per whether or not a 5 year should separate from their mother or father - I think it is up to the 5 year old and their parents. Some kids are ready at 5 and some are not - I do not think "not being ready at 5" is a sign of future dependancy issues. 5 is still quite young.

 

 

 

 

 

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#39 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 09:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post

But I find it completely ok for someone to say if your child can not do ABC then they cannot participate.

 

Also, your unable to seperate child is not the only child in the room. Your presence can be ruining the learning experience of other children  who are more ready for that activity.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Marsupial mom...no flames from me. I agree with much of what you said.

 

However, the thing I got from the Op was the museum was making it mandatory that parents do not attend programs with their 5 year old.

 

There is a difference between thinking things are a good idea in general and legislating it. You may think it is a good idea that 5 year olds learn to separate from their parents - but should you make a rule that says they have to separate or may not participate?

 

As per whether or not a 5 year should separate from their mother or father - I think it is up to the 5 year old and their parents. Some kids are ready at 5 and some are not - I do not think "not being ready at 5" is a sign of future dependancy issues. 5 is still quite young.

 

 

 

 

 


Yes - but why is the default to children who are able to separate?

 

At 5, it is appropriate to go either way - able to separate or not.

 

In many ways it is the museums program and they can do what they want - but I see it as part of a cultural issue:  the tendancy to insist on early independence of children.  It is not something I agree with.  

 

 

 One of the reason people mention over and over again when discussing why they HS is family togetherness, and high levels of parental input of learning/socialising experiences.  The degree to which they follow this is individual, of course, but as a group they probably value it more, than say, the general public.  It does not matter with it is correct or not - it is a parental decision and that is that.

 

I think if you offer an experience to any group, you should be mindful of its expectations....I would not push early academic on a group of Waldorf children visiting a museum - I would tailor the program.  I think it is legit to tailor the program to the needs of the participants.

 

I must admit I am a little suprised that most people on this thread are OK with the museum saying "no parents" to workshops for 5 year old.  That would not fly in my area.  While many parents would be Ok with dropping off - they would NOT be Ok with feeling they must drop off or are unwelcome in the class/workshop.  Maybe it is a regional thing - and relates to value a culture places on early independence.

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#40 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 10:18 AM
 
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Maybe the problem is that it's a 5-8 class not just a 5 year old class? So the class is really intended for older kids and 5 year olds who happen to be able to handle it. If a kid can't handle the class at 5, the class isn't for them right now and they can come back next year or the year after.

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#41 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 10:36 AM
 
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I don't think it's forcing children to separate, but it may be keeping children out of the class who are not really ready for the class.  I homeschool and love spending all day with my kids, but I also value having other role-models in their lives.  I get to pick those role models and if they're not working for my child, then I move on.  I don't homeschool them and sign them up for classes so I can control every single situation and make it exactly what I want.  If I don't like it, I find something I do like.  If my 5yo doesn't want to be without me, then I'll find something for him that accommodates that.  I would ask him to try it first and then if he doesn't feel comfortable, I would wait for awhile and try again.  I want to show my children that I trust them to handle the situation.

 

 

 

Even in my 10yo's middle school class science class, I see parents doing things for their 10-14yo's.  Really?  Your child can't cut a piece of paper or use a hole punch???  The teacher is very active and knows how to engage the kids and he tells them step by step how to do the experiments and make the models.  Still, the parents are there, doing the stuff for the kids.  Drives me insane.  I enjoy sitting in the class because the teacher is so funny.  I sit quietly in the back because it's allowed.  I would be fine (even happy) with them kicking us out of the class. 

 

If it were a Waldorf class that didn't want an early academic class, I'd expect them to not sign up for an academic class...not to make the class less academic.  Or not to take an organized tour if they really want to go at their own pace.  I don't go on organized tours very often for that reason. 

 

I think that if you let the museum know that you are not signing up for the class because you're uncomfortable with the policy, that will lead them to either change the policy or not.  I often write emails and call the local YMCA to let them know what I like, dislike, would like to see in their classes.  Often, I find that what I want is on the next session.  We've had classes where we, as parents, have moved all of our kids to a different teacher or even facility when we didn't like what was going on...a teacher we found too rough, not disciplined enough, not engaging enough, etc.  When 20 kids suddenly move out of a program, they take notice.

 

 

At 5, it's a different story of course.  But if the museum wants the children to be mature enough to be without their parents, that's their call.  I love homeschooling, but I want my kids to have their own, genuine experiences without me there as well. 

 

I'm surprised at how many people here aren't bothered by helicopter parenting in the class setting. 


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#42 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 11:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post

Maybe the problem is that it's a 5-8 class not just a 5 year old class? So the class is really intended for older kids and 5 year olds who happen to be able to handle it. If a kid can't handle the class at 5, the class isn't for them right now and they can come back next year or the year after.



That makes more sense to me.  I must read Op's more carefully.

 

I still think there is a distinction to be made from discouraged and not allowed.

 

I would enrol a 5 -8 yr old in classes where parents were discouraged from attending; if a child was not ready fro a drop off I would not enrol the child.

 I would not enrol a young child (whether they are ready or not) if the program draws a very hard line about parents ever being in the room.  If there are issues I expect to be able to observe, for example. 

 

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#43 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 11:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom View Post
ation.

 

 

 

 

 

If it were a Waldorf class that didn't want an early academic class, I'd expect them to not sign up for an academic class...not to make the class less academic.  Or not to take an organized tour if they really want to go at their own pace.  I don't go on organized tours very often for that reason. 

 

Not if the museum advertised it as a Waldorf program

 

My understanding from the OP (and I will reread and edit if I am incorrect) is that this is  advertised as a HS program...so yeah I would expect some flexibility to that effect.

 

It is obviously a different story if you are signing up for a class offered to the general public.

 

 

I'm surprised at how many people here aren't bothered by helicopter parenting in the class setting. 

 

I am not sure wanting to be allowed in (whether you choose to exercise that parental right or not) is automatically helicopter parenting.

 

 

Kathy
 

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#44 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 04:57 PM
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I am not sure wanting to be allowed in (whether you choose to exercise that parental right or not) is automatically helicopter parenting.


I would agree here.  The whole "helicopter parenting" thing is often used as a reason against homeschooling or at the very least for some sort of focus on "independence."  tbh...my first reaction to that is something like...aren't the majority of the young adults/children that you're referring to in the public school?

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#45 of 47 Old 12-19-2010, 05:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pampered_mom View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I am not sure wanting to be allowed in (whether you choose to exercise that parental right or not) is automatically helicopter parenting.


I would agree here.  The whole "helicopter parenting" thing is often used as a reason against homeschooling or at the very least for some sort of focus on "independence."  tbh...my first reaction to that is something like...aren't the majority of the young adults/children that you're referring to in the public school?


Agreed!

 

 

There are a lot of reasons that a casual bystander might think a parent is a helicopter parent when they really aren't - they are just trying to meet the needs of their specific child. Said child might suffer from unseen disabilities or issues, for one thing.

 

I've been accused of it myself with my daughter - I always attend and help because 1. She has multiple life threatening food allergies. At 4, she's not going to know to ask was the playdough they are using to make ornaments made from peanut butter {Yes this actually happened at a library event}. 2. She's 4, functioning at the level of a 5 year old - except for motor skills which lag. Yes I cut things for her, poke holes etc with her direction. She cannot do it right now, and gets very frustrated in public when asked to without help, which leads to a meltdown. 3. I want to be sure that what it being taught fits with our family values. I've pulled DD out of storytime before when the story was not one we approved of or I felt age appropriate for HER.

 

 


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#46 of 47 Old 12-24-2010, 03:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post

But I find it completely ok for someone to say if your child can not do ABC then they cannot participate.

 

Also, your unable to separate child is not the only child in the room. Your presence can be ruining the learning experience of other children  who are more ready for that activity.  

 


yeahthat.gif

 

 

I have to agree with Marsupial mom here, though I also agree with the PP that said some kids just aren't ready at 5, and therefore you aren't automatically a "helicopter parent" for needing to be present for the class of a 5 year old.  We have a Science Center and a History Museum here, both of which offer classes and workshops.  Our  membership gets us into both, and the Science Center offers daily half-hour long workshops that are free and open to parents AND kids, but we tend to avoid those in favor of the pay classes that don't allow parents.  This isn't due to convenience...I can't really go anywhere other than the museum for that 45 minutes, and I'm there so much that I could walk it in my sleep, but the parents in the other classes are SO obnoxious sometimes that I would rather be bored and shell out the cash.  

 

For example, they answer the questions that the teachers ask.  So the teacher will ask "what are some things that stay in a liquid state at room temperature?"  And the kids will start saying answers as well as the parents, with all the answers that might take a minute to think about coming from parents alone.  Or the teacher might ask "Does anyone know what the three things a fire needs in order to burn?" and they'll whisper answers to their kid, so there is no back-and-forth talking about why an incorrect answer might have SEEMED correct like the teacher will do with the first few answers to get the kids really thinking about it.  Some parents seem to just view it as a competition to get their kid to answer correctly, and others seem to have some kind of attention seeking issue that makes them want to impress people by knowing the answers to questions intended for 6 year olds.  Ugh.  I have actually congratulated parents for being so super duper smart that they knew all the answers in a children's class before the kids did.  eyesroll.gif

 

My kids are really happy to be dropped off, and they are 5 and 6.  They know that the class is optional, and that I'll see them when it's over.  With the 5 year old, I actually have to hide during his karate lessons because it is NOT drop off and having me in the room makes him totally unable to focus.  There is just so much waving, and talking and showing off that I stay in the snack room and watch from a distance.  My 6 year old is fine with us at his sports stuff though.  If your kid isn't ready to be alone, then by all means do what you need to do, but I don't fault the museum for the policy, especially since the class is also for older kids.  

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#47 of 47 Old 01-14-2011, 08:20 PM
 
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It would be nice if the parents could at least observe, but I would be fine with leaving my dd.  If it were all day, then I would not, but 45 minutes is something she would be happy to do.


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