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I've posted 2 maybe 3 times about this here in the past. DD1 is still not grasping or remembering her numbers. She is great with words and I think she counts by memorizing the sounds of the words and the order like a song. She idenifies written #s 110 readily and is getting there with the teens. However, no matter how many times I tell her 20 is twenty, she cannot recall it. Same on down the line. Though she knows to say twenty after nineteen, she doesn't identify 20. or 30 or 40 etc... We have a different sort of curriculum this year, which I think would be great to help her visualize and understand what numbers represent physically. But, for example the last part of this week was reviewing #4  counting, writing, identifying. At the same time you study what 4 represents physically you introduce the written number family of 40  49. With #5 it'll be 50  59. Then, once reaching 9 she'll start with simple addition and move onward.
I've looked into what sorts of mental blocks she might be having and I'm not finding anything that really fits. I went to a dyslexia conference and she didn't fit that picture at all, and not dyscalculia either as I talked with the specialist. The specialist suggested aspberger's autism because of her advanced language skills, but my nephew has aspberger's and she does not display the social behaviors that he has difficulty with despite being high functioning and an otherwise uneffected child.
I'm almost in tears everyday as I try to review this stuff with her. She doesn't get any better though some days are better than others, just when I think she has it  it's gone again. I'm wondering when I should give up. What is best for her? I have 2 things I'm thinking of trying. No TV on school days. (We do not watch during school, and we do not have cable so she only watches DVDs as it is.) And, not doing the counting # families and just sticking to the number we are studying at the time, hoping that eventually when she starts adding the 2 and 3 digit numbers she'll know what they are. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Our curriculum has all sorts of visual and tactile activities that we are doing, but not with the bigger numbers  just with the number like 4 etc... until you reach the bigger ones I think. Ugh!
Appalachian mountain woman, radical homemaker, homeschooler, childbirth educator, and doula loving her DH and three powerful little femmes. Deladis 8405, Ivy 42808, and Gweneth 72112 HBA2C! 
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I dont know, she is only a several months older than my dd (I think from your siggie? My dd will be 6 in december) and she can only count to twenty reliably and recognize numbers about up to there and will still need help sometimes. I am thinking she is just not quite ready for it yet? She still cant visualize or understand the concept of what certain numbers mean and I dont really know of her friends that can either. Maybe I am misunderstanding what is going on?
I am also curious, what would the no tv accomplish? I am just trying to figure out the correlation?
Nicole  )0( unschooling mama to Lilah (12/21/05) and Cian (9/21/07) as well as 3 2 , 4 rats, and ducks
I can hear in your post your love and caring for your daughter along with your frustration. Hugs Mama!
I am a little confused. The title of your post says that your dd is not grasping numbers yet you say she can identify 110 and is coming along on the teens but is having difficulty with larger numbers. So she is grasping some numbers, just not all? Am I reading this right? Do you know if this is something other children her age are able to do? My youngest two are a year younger than your daughter. They can identify 110 but do not yet have the teens. I am guessing if you have gone through the potential developmental problems (and it sounds like you have been very thorough with this) then she just may not be there yet with numbers. Every child develops at a different pace. Are there areas that she has really excelled at? My oldest dd is 5th grade...her reading is probably high school level but her math skills are maybe a year behind her age. I know she will catch up when the time is right for her.
I'm not a big fan of tv watching but with that said I don't think decreasing your daughter's tv watching will allow her to grasp the concept of 20, 30, 40. I don't think it is anything you are doing "wrong" or not doing. I am guessing she will come along with her math just fine. I would take a step back and look at her as a whole child. Is she developing along well on the whole? She is young and there is lots of time for her to grasp these concepts. Go easy on yourself.
Mama to Ainsley (7/01) , Finley (10/06) and Jade (10/06)
Yes, she does this readily. This is no problem at all for her. Which, is why I'm wondering if I should just stick with single digits as the curriculum goes, and forget the counting to 100. We are working with 1st grade curriculum so I'm assuming the publishers feel she should be able to do this. I have a Master's in Teaching but for upper grades and high school. She is my first baby and the first I've ever taught this young, so I don't really know what to expect of her I guess. She seems really bright to me in general.
I can hear in your post your love and caring for your daughter along with your frustration. Hugs Mama!
I am a little confused. The title of your post says that your dd is not grasping numbers yet you say she can identify 110 and is coming along on the teens but is having difficulty with larger numbers. So she is grasping some numbers, just not all? Am I reading this right? Do you know if this is something other children her age are able to do? My youngest two are a year younger than your daughter. They can identify 110 but do not yet have the teens. I am guessing if you have gone through the potential developmental problems (and it sounds like you have been very thorough with this) then she just may not be there yet with numbers. Every child develops at a different pace. Are there areas that she has really excelled at? My oldest dd is 5th grade...her reading is probably high school level but her math skills are maybe a year behind her age. I know she will catch up when the time is right for her.
I'm not a big fan of tv watching but with that said I don't think decreasing your daughter's tv watching will allow her to grasp the concept of 20, 30, 40. I don't think it is anything you are doing "wrong" or not doing. I am guessing she will come along with her math just fine. I would take a step back and look at her as a whole child. Is she developing along well on the whole? She is young and there is lots of time for her to grasp these concepts. Go easy on yourself.
Thank you for the encouragement. See the above response that answers some of what you have asked here as well. I was just thinking in taking some TV time, it might help her concentration, but I don't know if that is even the problem. She is sitting right next to me and not daydreaming when we are doing this, so... I'm just wondering if I should lay off trying to count to 100 just now. Maybe that is what I should do.?
Appalachian mountain woman, radical homemaker, homeschooler, childbirth educator, and doula loving her DH and three powerful little femmes. Deladis 8405, Ivy 42808, and Gweneth 72112 HBA2C! 
I would relax.Maybe get some free educational pc games online or through library interloan for her to try. I think the mia the mouse ones had math among other things. I think she is doing well from what you wrote. I remember being upset over my ds not reading well at 7,and now at 9 he fininshed all the harry potter books.
My kids really liked the pc games. Arthur games were a favorite.
My kids are now 9 and 12 and IMO they are progressing fine(in Monetessori),but the teachers are always freaking over something they are not learning fast enough.Me, I know in time they will learn all they need to learn. When they were younger I worried more about them not knowing.what I THOUGHT they should know,or comparing them to others their age. I found that forcing things when they are not ready just hurt them and me both!
Best wishes!
We don't use RightStart math, but I did buy the game kit. It is fantastic and has MANY games to reinforce number concepts (and beyond). As far as rote counting to 100, my second did best by learning to count by 10s first. She kept track of which ten she was on with her fingers as she counted to 100.
Based on her age and grade, I bet she takes off this year in regards to numbers. Also, counting to 100 is one thing understanding that 20 is more then 12 is another. Perhaps make a list of number concept skills that she has and doesn't have. Check them off as she tackles them. It might be encouraging. But, remember, you may need to learn things again as you move to bigger numbers.
Good luck!
Amy
Mom to three very active girls Anna (15), Kayla (12), Maya (9).
My DS seemed to take a longer time than most to "get" his numbers too. He couldn't even count to 5 until he was over 4 years old. We finally got to 14 when he was 5. He skipped 15 for the longest time. After he got to 20 it was smooth sailing. He was SO excited when he finally learned to count to 100! Now, even when he counted to 100, he still couldn't figure out how the numbers read! The teens tripped him up until he was almost 6. He DID finally get it and when he did a lot of stuff just "clicked" for him and now he's *ahead* in math by about 1 1/2 grade levels. He understands higher concepts even though he's not quick with counting and basic addition and subtraction still. It sometimes takes him a full minute to figure out 127 (because he's still slow to count backward) but he can do 2 (and 3 and 4) digit subtraction with regrouping, it just takes time. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. It's one reason I'm happy to homeschool is because I know I can move on and teach him other stuff, knowing he will become more fluent in the basic stuff as we go on. And he has. I tried to get him to memorize his addition and subtraction tables (yeah right!) so he could work faster. He can't seem to just sit down and memorize, BUT they are coming to him slowly but surely. He now has the lower ones memorized (2+3, ect) and also 2+2, 3+3, ect all the way through 5+5. He's memorized them on his own, through working with numbers in higher concepts. So I say just go for it. It will come to her.
All children are different. I would give her more time. That is the good thing about homeschool we can give time to let our "students" grow.
If you see a problem you can always get her tested. BUT I would really give time.
I would drop the higher numbers for now. It sounds like you are experiencing a lot of anxiety and frustration over the larger numbers, and I don't doubt that she's picking up on that. Anxiety can totally derail mathematical learning. The Asian approach to math focusing broadly and deeply on numbers 020 for the first part of the primary curriculum (i.e. 1st grade), on the theory, borne out by very high standardized math scores in later years, that a firm foundation in small numbers is essential before starting to build placevalue complexity beyond them. The Singapore Primary Math US Ed. Level 1A goes into a fair bit of depth in mathematics simply using the numbers 020. Perhaps you could do something like that for now, and return to the placevalue type exercises (i.e. number families) in a few months. With a more solid foundation and less stress and anxiety, she may be ready to start grasping place value into the tens at that point.
FWIW, I think that moving from 4 to "four tens" and then immediately to the numbers 4049 is a more complex conceptual leap than most kids would be ready for if they were completely new to place value.
Miranda
Mountain mama to two great kids and two great grownups
I would drop the higher numbers for now. It sounds like you are experiencing a lot of anxiety and frustration over the larger numbers, and I don't doubt that she's picking up on that. Anxiety can totally derail mathematical learning. The Asian approach to math focusing broadly and deeply on numbers 020 for the first part of the primary curriculum (i.e. 1st grade), on the theory, borne out by very high standardized math scores in later years, that a firm foundation in small numbers is essential before starting to build placevalue complexity beyond them. The Singapore Primary Math US Ed. Level 1A goes into a fair bit of depth in mathematics simply using the numbers 020. Perhaps you could do something like that for now, and return to the placevalue type exercises (i.e. number families) in a few months. With a more solid foundation and less stress and anxiety, she may be ready to start grasping place value into the tens at that point.
FWIW, I think that moving from 4 to "four tens" and then immediately to the numbers 4049 is a more complex conceptual leap than most kids would be ready for if they were completely new to place value.
Miranda
i totally agree with this. my dd is only a few months older than yours and she can barely get past 10. i think that developmentally you may be expecting too much. i agree with the singapore math idea that they should have a really good foundation in the under 20 numbers and to not expect more than that before age 7ish. and i also think that there is an abstract leap that would be beyond most kids that age.
have you thought about a number line? i am putting one up this week on the wall in our dining room. it will go up to 40, simply so that we can count each day of the month with a clothes pin attached to the number line. do you have a chart that has the numbers 099 or 1100? that may help her visualize what you are talking about. but i wouldn't really expect her to get it until age 7. and even though someone has memorized something doesn't mean they understand it. as you said, she memorizes songs but it doesn't mean she actually understands what she is saying, it is just the sound the words make. i would take out the part of the curriculum you are using that emphazises the 20's,.30's, 40's, etc. and just focus on the rest of the numbers. the book Kitchen Table Math has some good ideas about how to introduce larger numbers.
A couple more thoughts. We have the "number train" puzzle that is great. The puzzle is put in order by number. Each train car has the number written on it and the appropriate number of objects to count. I would scatter them on the floor and coach my dd through it. "Which number is next. . . oh, 7, ok let's hunt for the seven." When she found it (or at least thought she found it), we would count the balloons or ladybugs or whatever to "double check". It was fun.
I also second singapore math. That is our spine. They definitely do a lot with numbers 120. At first it seems to take forever to work with bigger numbers, but the firm foundation is awesome.
Amy
Mom to three very active girls Anna (15), Kayla (12), Maya (9).
I will put in a plug for Miquon and Cuisenaire rods. They can lay the blocks out in front of them visually. You can build on what she already knows. I'm a big fan of the C. rods letting the child visual the whole, then the pieces, and to see how they fit together. I think it is a fabulous way to learn math. Works great for visual and tactile learners. Here is an example of using C. rods to learn money, which has double digits, to give you an example of how visual it is. That's not my website just one that I found.
We still are fans of Richard Scarry's "Best Counting Book Ever". I've been reading it since dd1 was about 2. Now at 6.5 she is reading it to my 4.5yo. I like that the numbers are broken down, like for the #12, 5 hens are red, 5 are white and 2 are black. 12 hens in all! I much prefer "teaching" concepts like this through stories. Over and over and over again. Then one day, CLICK! (Just like my own experience with algebra! One summer off and somehow I just "got" it.) 6yo is not too old for this book, and your youngest will love it.
"She is a mermaid, but approach her with caution. Her mind swims at a depth most would drown in."
I wouldn't worry.
As the others have said, certain things take certain children longer time to learn. Just take such a basic thing as walking as an example. Each child learn it in a different way, some of us crawl and then walk. Some just sit and watch, and then surprise their parents by standing up and taking their first steps. But most of us do get there eventually without any real coaxing or special help from our surrounding, except perhaps a trouser leg to cling to. :)
Math is much the same. We learn it in different ways, and there really is no one way of learning that is better than the other as long as in the end, we know mathematics. I would stop worrying too much about your daughter not learning rather abstract mathematics and high numbers, and focus on what she does seem to grasp. For instance, basic addition and subtraction, since that is a great way of sneaking in a new number every now and again. For example, the number 20 can be learnt by having her pick out two groups of ten and asking her if she knows how many it is if you group them all together. Make it fun. Make it playful. Repeat without really repeating, and I am sure she will soon learn the number 20 too when it is playful and light hearted. Before you know it, she will know that ten groups of tens is 100. And that just four groups of tens is 40.
Personally I would make or buy an abacus, since it is a great tool for helping visualise the different levels of numbers.
I've been thinking about your TV comment. I think if you set it up as taking it away from her it may actually put more stress on her. Unless her habit is to watch tv for 6 hours a day I don't think it is going to get in the way of number learning. We're big fans of C rods for conceptual learning of number. My DS is a year younger, but I definitely see him grasp ideas faster when he is touching it with the colors.
I love our abacus to help visualize the numbers and we use RightStart Math, which has really helped my struggling 7 year old.
The teach numbers 110, then they teach 1ten, 2ten, 3ten and so on up to 10ten (instead of 20, 30, 40 and so on). So for the first couple of years 30 is read as 3ten. Then after you learn 1ten to 10ten. Just a thought.
I think that she's pretty young yet, and I imagine this is causing a lot of stress for you both. I'd totally drop it for now, and revisit it in a while. You'd be surprised, I'm sure, by what she picks up on her own in another year:) We've been going through a similar thing with my middle daughter, but with the alphabet. AND she's a couple of years older than your daughter. I too used to stress out about it, but then I began to watch her kick our butts at math strategy games and thrive on all things numbers, so I relaxed. And now, for whatever reason, lots of letters are beginning to sink in  yes, at the same time that her younger brother is ready to learn them as well, but there you go. I doubt we'll really notice a difference in the years to come, it's just taking her longer to catch on.
I would agree w/ pp I think that your perhaps pushing where it isn't developmentally appropriate. It might help to preview some math programs and get an idea of what they are working on for this age. At the beginning of last year when ds just turned 6 he couldn't even count to 10 or recognize half the numbers, just rote memorization did not work with him. We started Right Start Math though as a lot of it is oral and orally he could tell you addition facts, even though he couldn't count them. We started actually on Level B, that is where he tested. It would seem counterintuitive that starting a program would ease the stress but it totally did, RS is very gentle. At the end of the year he could count to 100++++, add double digits in his head, add 1000s w/ carrying, tell time to the minute, count change and many more things. As a pp suggested if nothing else I would get the card games and just do them and NOTHING else for math for awhile, let her and you have a bit of a break.
Thank you all so much for your replies. I dropped the whole number families thing and we are just working our way up and guess what.... I discovered she understands numbers much more than I thought she did. Yesterday, she said. With these numbers 10 is the most, but we may get to where 100 is the most... but it can't be because there is always 1 more... numbers never end. She understands what they represent! She does! Just doesn't understand their names. I'm going take it easy and we'll build up to counting to 100. Maybe by the end of this school year, who knows. I think I just have to remember to relax and that just because it says to do something in our curriculum, doesn't mean I have to. :)
Appalachian mountain woman, radical homemaker, homeschooler, childbirth educator, and doula loving her DH and three powerful little femmes. Deladis 8405, Ivy 42808, and Gweneth 72112 HBA2C! 
"She is a mermaid, but approach her with caution. Her mind swims at a depth most would drown in."
Curriculums are wonderful guidelines but it can be hazardous to allow them to rule your childs learning experience (after all, isn't this why most of us homeschool? Personally tailored learning?). It sounds like she is really doing fine, maybe a more relaxed and slow approach will help you both breath a sigh of relief.
I think it's essential to stop often and look ahead  seeing the many years a child will have for learning all the essentials. It really doesn't depend on starting so young and continually building on a set schedule. Homeschooling can provide the gift of time  time for ease and comfort with all the individual growth spurts and plateaus in all the different areas of learning. The important thing at your daughter's age is just finding out how enjoyable and satisfying it can be to learn about lots of different things, and a lot of that involves gaining a confidence in her own learning style and abilities. When you have anxiety about some of that, it shows and affects her own perceptions. She's very, very young  it won't affect the rest of her life or education if she doesn't know much of anything beyond the first 10 numbers, and it wouldn't even matter if she didn't know those yet.
I haven't told this story in a long time, but I've told it a lot here, so here goes again. My son was on panels of young adult homeschool grads at a couple of conferences. On one of those, he commented on how much faster and easier it is to learn things later rather than earlier  in days rather than weeks, weeks rather than months or years. He was referring to that process from the beginning right through to the teen years. There was a raucous outburst of laughter and applause from the front and center rows. Those were his friends and their parents, all cracking up and cheerfully applauding that someone was coming right out and saying what we'd all learned the hard way, because it's something a lot of people don't think to point out, especially in recent times when earlier and earlier formal studying is being done in schools and now in homeschool settings.
Years later, when he was in college, some friends of his in the dorm were Googling names of friends for fun. They were laughing hysterically and going around the dorm getting others to laughing and teasing him (just fun  not in a mean way) about this comment he'd made in an article I'd written: ",,,but you'd be surprised how much you can learn at my age in a few weeks compared to the few years it would take in your early teens." I didn't get it  couldn't understand what was so funny. He had to explain it to me  they said he was "bragging about being able to learn faster than a bunch of little kids." I still didn't quite get it. After more explanation, I got that it's just so obvious to them at their age that it's a whole lot easier to learn things as you get older that it was funny  whereas teachers and parents have somehow lost track of this to a certain extent.
So, I'd like to suggest that it can flow along in the coming years a lot more smoothly if you try not to think in terms of traditional age and grade expectations and instead just move along gently at her individual pace, letting her be the owner of her learning experiences as much as possible. When I look back, that's what I wish I had known to do in the very beginning. And I realize that right now there's that one anxiety on your mind, and there are always others coming along, so it isn't always easy. Lillian
Well, I should have read the whole thread before posting  I see that you've already arrived at a place of comfort with this.
Enjoy! Lillian
beautiful beautiful moment!
thanks for sharing :heartbeat
i just love these moments ... and they seem to happen wrt math most of all.
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... dd is going on 12 (!) how was I to know there was a homeschool going on?
If this helps any, my DD just turned 7 the first week of Sept 2011, and she is doing so much with logical math conceptualization, primarily because we didn't do the whole numbersonapage thing. We have conversations all the time, especially when driving, about evens, odds, etc. and ask each other math riddles for fun, but I saw how her unfolding natural understanding came crashing to a halt when I faced her to a blackboard of the numbers and symbols. I reversed course because I remember that's what it did to me too at that age, leaving me in a bewildering sea of unrelated math "facts" to accept on rote and regurgitate without perceived purpose.
Since staying away from all that, her boldness has returned, and she was able to tell me what happens when you add odds with odds and evens with evens, and odds with evens, AND WHY! I used the Socratic Method for us both, an honest inquiry together, because even though I was gifted at spatial reasoning skills, I could never learn math by having factoids and formulae poured into my head, and anything I didn't discover for myself, I didn't retain. So as a 38 year old, until my 7 year old and I explored the topic, I couldn't have rattled off whether you get an even number every time you add two odds, or why. We both figured it out together, and it was fun.
She still reversed letters and numbers, can count to 100 verbally but has a lot of trouble with written numbers past 20 also. And for whatever reason, I wasn't (and still am not) the least bit worried. In so many things in life, the ability to deal with the symbolic conventions of a thing, come AFTER the ability to think abstractly about the thing, and that's actually a good thing, because those who learn the symbolic conventions long before they can conceptualize, often come to equate the symbol with what it represents, and then see math as nothing but a complex and mysterious set of seemingly arbitrary conventions and formulae to obey mindlessly. That's how it's taught in school, and for me at least, and apparently my daughter, it's a good way to shortcircuit the emerging creative logical ability to conceptualize quantities and spatial relationships.
How many of us can say we understood a thing about what the trig formulae we had to memorize and utilize, represented in 3 real dimensions? How many of us could really see it in our heads, the reality of relationships that the flat formulae on paper were describing? And if we didn't understand what it was we were really doing with those numbers and conventions, it's not surprising if we forgot all the memorized operations soon after, because there was no innate sense to it.
Just as we don't learn our language by first learning to read, write, and spell, I think the natural ability to conceptualize logical spatial relationships and quantities, is best served by being allowed to develop a bit, before being transferred too much into a formalized system of nomenclature and symbolic representations. It's too easy that way, to miss the forest for the trees, like someone who was never allowed to cook alongside someone else, trying to plan and prepare a full meal out of nothing but a collection of written recipes. It might not hurt to step away from the recipe cards and just make some pancakes by feel, together, for a while. Maybe openended conversations on things of daily importance like the clock and calendar, how to divide a bag of treats evenly, etc would open a door for enthusiasm and confidence? If nothing is wrong (as you have had to painfully consider, though if it's wrong with your DD, it is with mine too!), then in time, the symbols will come, without trauma.
Best wishes. I hope I don't come across badly. I only hope that explaining how my DD is, and that there are some similarities, gives you a breath of hope. Sometimes perfectly bright kids just aren't ready for something that the outside world expects them to be. I was gifted at math and spatial reasoning, yet until geometry (which I aced effortlessly) I flunked every single math class, and got passed along to the next based on test scores, and I could not learn to tie shoes or tell left from right til I was 8 years old, and the only reason I learned to tie shoes then, was because I had a tie on my shoulder of my sundress, and was able to address the problem as a frontback rather than a leftright spatial problem. I could also conceptualize spatially in special ways, though I didn't share the same assumptions with normal people, like I would get confused when someone told me clockwise turned to the right. How could it turn to the right, when it actually depends on where the observer is positioned? Clock hands turn to the right from 121, but to the left from 67, and turn "up" from 89, and "down" from 34!
They always thought I was being a smart mouth, but I really had to keep asking teachers to clarify which of 6 different interpretations they meant, of something. But in areas where intuitive spatial awareness and reasoning was required rather than memorization, I could derive, solve, visualize, anything...within my own limits. I'm happy to say, I look forward to the adventure of discovery of reason, logic, quantity, properties of numbers, planes, and spaced, that lies ahead, and I don't plan on rote memorization being part of it, because it shuts down thinking.
40ish raising 3 kids with the help of their loving father.
Crunchynerd, you've given me faith for *my* family, and I think we're doing pretty well mathematically. My dd also "gets" multiplication, addition, subtraction (and touched a little on division once) and runs around announcing it to the family. I'm not opposed to workbooks, if they are presented like puzzle books and they are having fun, but your post has really helped me see the value of mental calculations over the written form, even if they are ready for the written form. To keep the bulk of math understanding grounded in visualizations.
"She is a mermaid, but approach her with caution. Her mind swims at a depth most would drown in."
My DD is 6, she can only count accurately up to about 15 and can only do addition up to 5. She is also not reading. We are not unschoolers btw but pretty structured. I am not worried about it... some kids just develop more slowly than others. As long as you are making consistent efforts over the school year, it's inevitable that she will start to learn more.
We also use RightStart Math, like an earlier poster. I was also going to suggest you name with tens, not by the "name" of the number. So, there's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, then 1ten one (for 11), 1ten two, 1ten three........and you can continue this all the way to one hundred: 9ten eight, 9ten nine...
That may help her grasp the concept of the numbers, especially if you use manipulatives to demonstrate what you're saying. Then, when she really gets it, you can tell her the shortcut secret names for the numbers, and it will make more sense and be less arbitrary.
But, she is still really young, try not to worry too much.

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