HSLDA Is Promoting Parents' "Right" to Spank - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 56 Old 07-03-2012, 10:35 AM
 
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Not only does HSLDA represent homeschoolers with special needs, they have three SN educational consultants to help their members. Here's the page: http://hslda.org/strugglinglearner/default.asp
 

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#32 of 56 Old 07-03-2012, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I admit to being a little suspicious when, after all sorts of unpleasant things about HSLDA are revealed, new MDC members (people posting for the very first time) show up in this forum.

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#33 of 56 Old 07-03-2012, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iowaorganic View Post

The only reason this is an issue with HSLDA is because they are lobbying for the Parental Rights Ammendment.  <snipped>

 

Yes if you are a paying member of an organization you should know what they are doing and what they stand for.  We can all agree on that.  But in this case it is imperative to NOT throw the baby out with the bathwater and look at the big picture. 

 

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Originally Posted by Vicki in VA View Post

Not only does HSLDA represent homeschoolers with special needs, they have three SN educational consultants to help their members. Here's the page: http://hslda.org/strugglinglearner/default.asp
 

 


With all due respect, I'm pretty sure I still have the e-mail that says pointe blanke that they will not undertake cases with children trying to get special education services at home--with the offer of a refund of my membership dues.  I'll take that over whatever they put up as advertising.

 

And since you are a new poster who is in VA, I am also suspect (since I know they are headquartered in VA).


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#34 of 56 Old 07-04-2012, 08:26 AM
 
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<<fforts to make military recruitment of HSers easier, exemption from taxes, exemption from federally mandated tests, parental rights amendments, all of which would actually reduce the freedoms to homeschool that they claim to protect.>>

 

I'm not understanding how these things reduce the freedom to homeschool -- can you explain? This is my perspective:

 

Homeschoolers who tried to join the military were not recognized as graduates and were required to take a GED and were then joining at a different tier/level with lesser benefits. HSLDA's Federal Relations department worked with all the branches to start pilot programs recognizing homeschool grads whose parents would show a transcript. Period. Same benefits (tier 1) as any other high school grad. No freedoms removed-- no authentication or certification of parents, approval of program/courses, etc. Just a self-certified transcript from the parents.

 

Exemption from federally-mandated tests is important because a federal test would lead to a federal curriculum -- and isn't one of our main reasons for homeschooling so we can tailor our curriculum to our children's needs?

 

The parental rights amendment is about the only thing that can prevent passage of the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child. If the UNCRC is passed, you can kiss homeschooling goodbye. :)

 

Am I missing something here?  :)  Thanks! 

 

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#35 of 56 Old 07-04-2012, 01:48 PM
 
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http://homeschoolcommunity.blogspot.com/2009/08/open-letter-to-homeschool-community.html

 

One person's perspective.  The following is an older article and I am not sure how much is still current, but it is still relevant.  Yes, it is an opinionated argument from the Kasemens, but my arguments would be opinionated as well. I have read their articles for years and find them well thought out, logical and convincing.  I could only hope my arguments would be half as good:

 

http://homeedmag.com/HEM/172/ma_clmn_tch.php

 

Quote:

 

"(3) We can learn from this experience and renew our commitment not to use legislation to try to solve problems except in rare situations when it is absolutely necessary. This problem has developed as a result of an attempt to use federal legislation to make it easier for homeschoolers to enter the military. It is a perfect example of a general principle we homeschoolers need to understand:homeschooling legislation carries serious risks because it provides many opportunities for increased regulation of homeschooling. One set of risks comes from the fact that amendments that increase regulation of homeschooling can be added during the legislative process. But even if a bill gets through the legislature without harmful amendments, regulation can easily be increased as the law is being implemented, as is the case with this law. We need to continue to find non-legislative ways to solve problems, as we have been doing. Consider how many of us homeschoolers have figured out how to get learning resources, become active in our communities, get jobs, attend college, etc., etc. without legislation to clear the way."


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#36 of 56 Old 07-04-2012, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Vicki in VA View Post

 

The parental rights amendment is about the only thing that can prevent passage of the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child. If the UNCRC is passed, you can kiss homeschooling goodbye. :)

 

 

 

Simply put, Vicki, not all homeschoolers accept this claim.  Homeschooling is flourishing and very much legal in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the United Kingdom--all countries that have signed the UNCRC. 

 

Some of us see homeschooling as being about the rights of the child not to be involuntarily confined in what is too often a prison-like environment, in which his ability to have self-determination in how and what he should learn is severely curtailed.  Parents who come to homeschooling from this philosophy (often through the work of John Holt) oppose other practices (e.g., spanking) that limit the child's right to freedom from bodily harm.  Surely HSLDA knows that there are countries that have banned spanking yet allow homeschooling (e.g., New Zealand, Finland)  so HSLDA's claim that all these issues are one and the same is patently false. 

 

The HSLDA supports a philosophy in which children are the property of their parents, not individuals with a right to certain basic protections (like educational freedom and bodily safety). 

 

I'd like to see you explain exactly how the legalization of gay marriage would impact homeschooling. 

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#37 of 56 Old 07-04-2012, 02:04 PM
 
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A paragraph from the first link.  I am having trouble edited and writing with links posted.

 

 

Quote:

 

"However, it became clear in 2005 that HSLDA was not just helping their members, they were attempting to set government policy for ALL homeschooled students. In 2005, their second attempt to introduce their Home School Non Discrimination Act (HoNDA) included language that would have enabled HSLDA as the certification agency for the U. S. military of homeschool graduates, including language identifying a “home school certificate or diploma”:

 

 


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#38 of 56 Old 07-04-2012, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by elus0814 View Post

I agree with other posters that it is a parental rights issue. There are lots of things that are legal to do to children that cause them pain and/or harm, at what point will the law have overstepped? I think about the spanking issue like vaccinating. It's painful for the child at the time and has a risk of long term damage but parents still do it because they believe the pain and risk are justified by the potential benefits. Parents who spank their children know it will cause pain and it carries the risk of long term emotional problems but they still do it because they believe it will benefit their children in the long run by showing them when they're doing something they have been told not to do. To the poster that commented on how it's illegal for a man to administer corporal punishment to his wife. An adult woman can carry on a conversation with her husband during which he can explain why he would prefer she not do something. He doesn't need to physically correct her because she is capable of understanding things that children can't and adjusting her actions accordingly. A child might not be able to understand when things are explained to them. Some parents feel it makes more sense to use corporal punishment to get the child to understand. How many parents have explained something gently a thousand times only to have a child misbehave anyway? Part of that is immaturity, even a very immature child will understand not to do something again when it means they will experience pain.

These above are great points. And I was also thinking that a child and full-grown adult woman are quite different. However-- this still doesn't make me feel justified in striking a child, adult or animal. As human beings we evolved as thinkers. As such, we should be intelligent enough to understand that harming another person is wrong. Period.

I wish this org would spend more time on home schooling rather then parental rights. Ridiculous.

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#39 of 56 Old 07-04-2012, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just wanted to say thanks to SweetSilver for all the links.  I was posting at the same time and had to get off the computer right after I posted. 

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#40 of 56 Old 07-05-2012, 05:52 PM
 
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I don't spank my kids but maybe if I'd gotten different kids I might have, I don't know. But I do worry about the way parents are policed in our society. It pains me when I hear of children being removed from good homes because of misunderstandings, causing worse trauma than the kids ever experienced at home. I don't think spankings are always that bad.
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#41 of 56 Old 07-06-2012, 01:33 PM
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Welcome to Mothering, Indian summer. smile.gif

 

Spankings are always that bad. Please take some time to read some of the information in our Gentle Discipline Resources page. 

 

Luckiestgirl - thank you for posting this. It is perfectly appropriate here but it would be great if you would also post it in our Activism forum for members who do not homeschool. I'm sure there are plenty of MDC parents who would help by spreading the word and complaining where they can. thumb.gif


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#42 of 56 Old 07-06-2012, 08:03 PM
 
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I don't think parents have a right to spank.  

 

But I'm curious how they expect to enforce this, and where they would draw the line.  I suppose reading the bill might be a good idea at this point (duh.)  I do think it is absolutely inappropriate for HSDLA to go after this, especially since they already take great pains to appear like they speak for all HSers.  

 

It would be nice if the spanking issue could be resolved without legislation.  It's that irritating.


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#43 of 56 Old 07-06-2012, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by SweetSilver View Post

 

It would be nice if the spanking issue could be resolved without legislation.  It's that irritating.

 

Well, one way to do this is to enforce existing assault laws.  In my state, at least, the law does not state an exception for assualting children.  If a man slaps his wife or domestic partner--even if he leaves "only" a red mark on her face and no deep bruising, he can be arrested for assault.  The law actually states that children can be victims of domestic assault.  In actual enforcement, though, police tend to use "bruising" or worse as the criteria for injury, whereas with partner assault red marks (or someone witnessing the victim being slapped) is enough to constitute injury.  This is, as I understand it, the essence of the Delware bill.  It simply makes clear that "pain" is enough to constitute injury. 

 

I'm not at all worried about someone falsely charging me with assault of my husband; though theoretically it could happen, I wouldn't say this possibility is reason enough to prevent the state from having a law against us assaulting each other. 

 

I know that at least some of the countries that have outlawed spanking have included a huge public service campaign and free classes to teach alternatives to spanking.  Once people understand that it won't be tolerated, they seem to give it up pretty easily.  Those who don't tend to be classic abusers from whom children truly need protection.

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#44 of 56 Old 07-07-2012, 01:57 PM
 
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Welcome to Mothering, Indian summer. smile.gif

 

Spankings are always that bad. Please take some time to read some of the information in our Gentle Discipline Resources page. 

 

 

She gave her opinion and stated it as "I don't think....". Your opinion is that spankings are always bad and you gave a link supporting your opinion. Please do not state what you think about a topic as a fact, it's impolite. No one here is saying that spanking is a good thing but there are differing opinions that need to be respected. 

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#45 of 56 Old 07-07-2012, 04:19 PM
 
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I think this issue is pretty dear to MDC, like CIO and circumcision, and in these areas their stance is the guiding philosophy here.  I don't think redirecting someone to Gentle Discipline is disrespectful.   I don't think saying "Spankings are always that bad" is disrespectful, either.  Maybe there was a better way to say it, but disrespect?  Didn't catch that.  Thought it was a very gentle post, and a reminder of MDC's philosophy on discipline.

 

Quote from the GD guidelines:

 

"Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate violence against children. Things that constitute violence toward a child are things like hitting, spanking, humiliating, shaming, screaming, prolonged isolation, basically things that are intended to cause physical or emotional pain. We do not allow discussion that promotes or defends such behavior. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed."

 

So, all in all I thought Cynthia's post quite respectful.


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#46 of 56 Old 07-07-2012, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Cynthia is an administrator.  The MDC web director, in fact.   I think she was drawing a line, and that she was very nice about it.  Historically, MDC has refused to provide a platform for arguments in favor of circumcision, CIO, and corporal punishment. 

 

So while we were having an important discussion about HSLDA,  we ended up with a poster saying that spanking is okay.  She was a new poster, and sometimes new members don't understand that there are some philosophies that make MDC different from other parenting boards. I think this has been more of an issue since Mothering magazine went out of print.  A lot (or most?) of the original MDC members were subscribers, so they came here already supporting the natural parenting/gentle discipline philosophy.

 

Frankly, I'm not interested in spending my time here convincing anyone that spanking is wrong.  I'm assuming that if you are at MDC you already support gentle discipline.  I am interested, however, in talking about the implications of HSLDA's actions on those of us who homeschool and on the homeschooling movement in general.  Thanks for those of you who have been willing to participate in that discussion, and to share links and information so that we all have a better understanding of the issues.

 

Edited:  Posting at same time as SweetSilver.  Sorry to be redundant.

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#47 of 56 Old 07-07-2012, 04:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Luckiestgirl View Post

 

Edited:  Posting at same time as SweetSilver.  Sorry to be redundant.

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#48 of 56 Old 07-10-2012, 10:35 AM
 
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Thank you for the post. I find this to be such a sad, upsetting subject.

 

Last week, Yahoo news had an article about how spanking children is correlated with these kids growing up to have issues with depression and yet, over 78% of adults polled on Yahoo are pro-spanking.

 

I belong to the online community "Gentle Christian Mothers" who are firmly pro-attachment and anti-spanking. I've taught my children that the Hebrew word, "shabat", from which the old "spare the rod" scripture comes from, in no way means that children are to be hit. Shabat speaks to authority and responsibility and the parent as being both for the child. We have the responsibility to teach our children that they are loved unconditionally, created for a special, unique purpose, and have special gifts to uncover and use for good.

 

I've never been an HSLDA member and will not be for a variety of reasons. It's hard for me that the homeschooling community can often be fragmented and judgmental -- coming from either or any side. I'm increasingly thankful for online forums and also for some very excellent and supportive homeschooling magazines.

 

Just want you to know that there are Christian homeschoolers who would never hit a child.

 

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#49 of 56 Old 07-10-2012, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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teastaigh,

 

Thank you for your lovely post.  I am familiar with Gentle Christian Mothers and realize that there is a very definite anti-spanking segment of Christian homeschoolers.  It is also worth noting that the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) has recently taken a clear anti-spanking stance: http://www.news10.net/news/watercooler/199991/335/Church-says-no-to-spanking-kids?fb_ref=artsharetop&fb_source=timeline

 

Where I live, much of the support for the practice of spanking is coming directly from the pulpit.  I am not a Christian, but it is clear to me that if enough Christians were to challenge their pastors on this issue, progress could be made.

 

Perhaps those of us interested in anti-spanking advocacy could reconvene in the Activism forum?  I'll start a post there now.

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#50 of 56 Old 07-10-2012, 04:25 PM
 
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Cynthia is an administrator.  The MDC web director, in fact.   I think she was drawing a line, and that she was very nice about it.  Historically, MDC has refused to provide a platform for arguments in favor of circumcision, CIO, and corporal punishment. 

 

So while we were having an important discussion about HSLDA,  we ended up with a poster saying that spanking is okay.  She was a new poster, and sometimes new members don't understand that there are some philosophies that make MDC different from other parenting boards. I think this has been more of an issue since Mothering magazine went out of print.  A lot (or most?) of the original MDC members were subscribers, so they came here already supporting the natural parenting/gentle discipline philosophy.

 

Frankly, I'm not interested in spending my time here convincing anyone that spanking is wrong.  I'm assuming that if you are at MDC you already support gentle discipline.  I am interested, however, in talking about the implications of HSLDA's actions on those of us who homeschool and on the homeschooling movement in general.  Thanks for those of you who have been willing to participate in that discussion, and to share links and information so that we all have a better understanding of the issues.

 

Edited:  Posting at same time as SweetSilver.  Sorry to be redundant.

 

I never said she wasn't being nice about it. Web director or not it's not polite to state your opinion as fact. If one is to 'draw a line' then it should be worded in a way that indicates it's a personal line, something like "where I draw the line is...." or "most moms here draw the line at....". I, for one, welcome lively debates and opposing viewpoints, isn't that the whole reason for discussion?

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#51 of 56 Old 07-10-2012, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Of course people come here to discuss issues.  There has been much valuable discussion of HSLDA and homeschooling in this thread. 

 

Mothering is a place for support and discussion of topics related to natural family living.  Discussion is pretty lightly moderated these days.  Not too long ago, arguing in favor of spanking would result in a deleted post and a warning about being banned.   It is unreasonable to go to a natural family living forum and expect other users and the moderators to treat all opinions as being of equal weight.  You won't be able to make a case for circumcision here either.  People who want to have discussions where all parenting decisions are regarded as equally valid have a host of other places to choose from. 

 

I really don't get it.  I wouldn't go to a forum for support of vegan parents and demand that the administrators and other users validate my decision to eat meat.  They set up the space, and if I want to hang there I need to follow their guidelines. 

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#52 of 56 Old 07-11-2012, 01:24 AM
 
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I have to comment on the "spare the rod" reference.

My research, from books, many years ago, showed that the shepwrd had a rod and a staff. The staff was to pick up a stray, especially if stuck, lamb. The rod was for wolf fighting.
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#53 of 56 Old 07-18-2012, 06:56 PM
 
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What I'm reading is from the archives of HEM, admittedly they have had decades of disagreement with the organization.  The several columns I have read include information about their efforts to make military recruitment of HSers easier, exemption from taxes, exemption from federally mandated tests, parental rights amendments, all of which would actually reduce the freedoms to homeschool that they claim to protect.  The issue has always been that HSLDA is advocating with the notion that they represent homeschoolers, when in fact, they represent some homeschoolers.  They seem to be the largest, most active voice in (the other) Washington.

 

Does anyone have any good links outside this source?  I have always respected HEM, but clearly I need something else, out of fairness.

 

Here's a site with a lot of input from other sources :   Homeschooling is Legal

 

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#54 of 56 Old 07-20-2012, 09:04 AM
 
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Thanks, Lillian.  I was just thinking that I haven't seen your posts in a few weeks.  They are always wise and extremely helpful.  It's wonderful when HSing parents who have BTDT still post for the benefit of us who are just starting out.  

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#55 of 56 Old 07-20-2012, 02:53 PM
 
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I never said she wasn't being nice about it. Web director or not it's not polite to state your opinion as fact. If one is to 'draw a line' then it should be worded in a way that indicates it's a personal line, something like "where I draw the line is...." or "most moms here draw the line at....". I, for one, welcome lively debates and opposing viewpoints, isn't that the whole reason for discussion?

 

 

yeahthat.gif  In fact, I was a little surprised at such a statement that came across as "other perspectives are wrong" in such a diverse and respectful community.  When a leader comes out and makes a statement like that, it pretty much says "if you don't agree, you don't belong here".  And in 7 years, that's really not the sentiment I've ever had of MDC.

 

Most of this community is on a journey.  We have traditionally supported, encouraged, and shared in the hopes of enlightening people.  I'm sure I've never seen someone be flat-out told what is or is not acceptable by a leader.


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#56 of 56 Old 07-20-2012, 10:39 PM
 
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Hi! Yeah, if I had help set up my own commune, physical abuse would be number one no-no. Emotional abuse would actually be in there too. It is not really surprising to me then that these people are helping a different kind of community get support for a totally different idea. I just sat back and played out a day in my head of a nice sweet meaningful family trying to raise their children in learning environment with more virture and God's love.. spanking never fit in there. I understand the outcome they are trying to get at but really WWJD? It is strange to me. I know parenting is hard, you have to pray lots, have tons of faith and.. okay? why are they not letting God have more control? I thought that was a huge point of homeschooling? If one parent and child have one terrible moment and a hit - one single hit happens, I really feel like that is horrible and out to be enough for that parent to fall apart in there heart and go overboard with I'm sorries.. but using that as power? in a learning environment? Why? That seems fit for some deep abuse issues. It is horrible to the relationship. I don't get this at all! I do get that people were raised a certain way, etc, etc.. I am letting it slide, but.. uh.. hmmm.... to "call it" it seems clear to me that they just permitted a child to be at home getting abused and if kept from society due to " evils" than really in a bad position to be helped. 


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