So am I the only libertarian? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-04-2005, 03:26 PM
 
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Just adding my name to the libertarian list, and as a small hijack Has anyone read John Stossels book? I recomend it, it'll sure make you think.
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Old 02-04-2005, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by applejuice
It does not state that in any edition I have seen, and I have seen many since I look for and collect old text books.
Not in the original editions -at that time it was taken for granted that a third grader could be 12 or 15, and probably wasn't 8 - but in the new reissues. The edition I saw had a whole section of historical notes in the front of one book - this was a box set, so I don't recall which - and part of the notes described the typical ages. There's lots online that says the same thing, though, including the link I posted.

Many people have suggested a guaranteed minimum income - Goldwater wasn't the first or last, although he may have been the highest status politician to do so. I grew up in Arizona and could go on about Goldwater, but that would be really off topic...

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I am under the impression from the many many people I know on welfare that giving away money equals less desire to work. It very rarely occurs otherwise.
? What very rarely occurs otherwise?

The thing is, people on welfare get very little *money*. They are allocated resources, according to the governments formulas and not their needs. They get food stamps, housing subsidies, free (but often low quality) health care, WIC foods.. and a small amount of cash. Back when we got food stamps, you actually got pieces of paper and not a debit card, and you got your change in stamps unless it was under a dollar - then you got coins. So if you needed toilet paper but had no cash, only stamps, you would go buy an onion and get some change, and go buy a carrot and get some change, and then you'd have enough change to buy your toilet paper. Three separate check-outs, to get toilet paper. If you need something most costly, like cough syrup or a winter coat or bus money, that's a lot of carrots and onions, and a lot of time. You could also sell your stamps on the street for .50 on the dollar - not a great rate, but if you don't have time to wait in line 10 times, or get hassled by the store, then what else can you do?

Giving someone money is different. It allows her to allocate her resources the way she wants to - maybe spending less on food and eating more beans, or less on rent and living with a roommate, or whatever. There's no way to save money when you're on welfare, because so little of what you get is really money. You can save up food stamps, maybe, but then when you try to transition off of benefits you can't pay rent with stamps.

The other thing is that most people on public benefits don't have *enough*. They're in a constant state of stress because they're constantly having to worry about how they'll pay the rent, clothe the children, put food on the table... it's harder to let go of what you have when you're always worried about not having enough - the natural reaction is to hold onto anything you have. And, because of how the laws are, you probably live somewhere crappy without a lot of jobs available, or good child care, and you can't chose to move, you live where they give you housing, and you can't save monyey to move because they don't give you much actual oney and besides, saving it is against the rules...

Giving people real money, and enough of it to live on, is a totally different thing than the current public benefits system.
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But somehow we got completly off the topic of manditory education.
I think we all agreed pretty early on that mandatory schooling was a bad idea. We had some differences of opinion about whether schools should be publicly funded and available..

I heard a program on NPR last night that interested me. It was about social security and talked about the concept on an "ownership society". They even briefly touched on school vouchers as an example of the "ownership " concept in schooling. I think that would be a great idea - every parent of a school-aged child would get X amount of money to spend on the educational option of their choice. Public, private, religious, homeschool, unschool... whatever. The difference between public and private schools would blur or disappear - any school would be free to use whatever curriculum the parents of the children attending that school preferred. There would be some problems - some children with special needs might be apply to apply for and receive additional funds, fo example, if they were required to provide an adequate education.

I suppose there would be some sort of... oh, I'm blanking on the word, but I suppose the government would want to test the kids and be sure they were really being "educated", which would kind of ruin the concept. I can dream, though...

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Old 02-04-2005, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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On welfare, I have seen way more people buy ciggaretts with their ten trips thru the line than TP, and on housing I have seen again and again many people trash a house, the govt will get them a new one. I have met people getting a divorce, for money, having a third kid, for money, getting paid under the table, to keep the welfare check comming. I have met and watched TV, better tv, better cable service than I could ever afford in a hud house. I have met countless people who cloth themselves and their children in name brand outfits, while buying milk on wic. I am certafiably poor, I will not go to the govt to pay for my vices (some of which include, cable internet, hot showers, and red meat)

I personally find welfare and all systems associated with it to be horrible. I am very much against paying for other peoples vices. I do help my friends, in spite of their vices, in hopes that enough information, hints, and outright complaints on my part will get them to drop the vices they can't afford. I personally don't care how many manicures, how many movies or how many mcdees meals one has, so long as it is not on my tax dollar. I really would have to do more thought on weather I would rather the govt had a guaranteed per person or welfare of the product sort (free food and all). BUt hte truth is I don't like any of it. I know there are legitamate people in need of help, but I do not think a blanket approach would be a good idea. My initial thought is that people would complain it isn't enough cash, because in a lot of ways, people are never happy. Never content to live without the cool stuff, it is downright hard to live that way.
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Old 02-04-2005, 08:14 PM
 
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I have seen way more people buy ciggaretts with their ten trips thru the line than TP
Not their trips through with food stamps. Food stamps pay for food, nothing else. Not tp, cigarettes, diapers...

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Old 02-05-2005, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ten trips to get change, though now you get a card in some states so you have to buy milk for your responsible buddy in exchange for less cash to get the ciggs.

I had to cut my post short earlier, company here (yet another vice of mine .)

But I wanted to expand on the more theory. In my state my Dhs income is considered poor. We squeak by, so long as we keep the vices down. If on the other hand I lived back home in pgh my DHs salory would be plenty for most of my vices (still not all). SO if you have a blanket income, you would have plenty of people saying they need more becaue of where they live, and if you suggest they move, they need the loot to move, it aint free to start over or ship your stuff around the country. I personally feel it would get abused just as much as the product system we have. I am all for free FOOD, and I mean free food, like a soup kitchen, sorry if it aint your thing, I would gladly support free help to get a job too.

I also do not feel that all single moms have to hunt up a man to pay their way. I have many single mom friends, first of all they ALL made the misteak of getting pregnant, second they all have family and friends they can count on. Third they work very hard, I offer them all the support and love I can,m and occasionally money. While there are rare cases of girls getting pregnant thru no fault of their own, abstinance is the ONLY 100% effective method, I have no sympathy if you didn't practice that (Rape is another issue, those mothers deserve and need ALL the support the community can give). Ok I take that back I have a lot of sympathy for a mom even if you were trying to get pregnant! IT ain't easy! But I do not feel I or anyone else should be forking over tax money because someone forgot to keep their pants on.

I help my friends and family becaue I love them, and I do try to get them to see their vices, drop a few eat better. Pedicure=one weeks grocery, cable tv another week or three depending on premium chanels, ciggs depending on the habit anywhere from a months quiting = 1 weeks groceries to 1 month quitting = a months groceries, Drinking beer, again depending on the habit a meal or a weeks worth, name brand clothes... 40$ jeans = 40$ food. I for one would rather buy 40$ worth of food than clothes, but with welfare you can spend your 40 (or more) on jeans and still get food on someone elses tax dollar.
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Old 02-05-2005, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PrincessPerky

I had to cut my post short earlier, company here (yet another vice of mine .)
Your whole vices obsession is yet another indicator of you strongly you buy into the Puritan ideal, just BTW.
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SO if you have a blanket income, you would have plenty of people saying they need more becaue of where they live, and if you suggest they move, they need the loot to move, it aint free to start over or ship your stuff around the country. I personally feel it would get abused just as much as the product system we have.
But people would have the control over their money - they could save up and move, if they chose. They could live with roommates for a few months and eat a lot of beans. That's not an option now.

You feel that the current system is abused; I feel that the system abuses people.
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I also do not feel that all single moms have to hunt up a man to pay their way.
I didn't say that they did. I'm a single mom, without a man. It sure is much easier, though, financially. I'm lucky that I had options when Rain was little, because of my upper middle class background. I qualified for lots of grants and scholarships and was able to support us by going to school - back then, school grant and scholarship money didn't count as income for welfare unless you had some "left over" and banked it, and so I spent what I needed to on school, changed the rest into traveler's checks, and stashed it under my mattress. That's the only way I had the money to move when I graduated, and get off the system. And it was definitely cheating, and it was a luxury I had because I was smart and had a strong educational background. Most single moms wouldn't have that option, or even know about that option. Hooking up with a guy would have been easier.

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I have many single mom friends, first of all they ALL made the misteak of getting pregnant,
Whoa. Do you have any idea what an insulting statement that is? My daughter is the best "misteak" (sic) that ever happened to me. I don't consider her a mistake at all, but a blessing. Women become single mothers in many ways, and for you to paint all of their pregnancies as "mistakes" is beyond insulting.

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second they all have family and friends they can count on.
Bully for them. Not all single mothers do - many don't. Many *mothers* don't.

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Third they work very hard,
Don't all mothers work very hard? I suppose there must be some who don't, but I've never met them.

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I offer them all the support and love I can,m and occasionally money.
And judgements, apparently.

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While there are rare cases of girls getting pregnant thru no fault of their own,
Would you use the term "fault" to describe a married woman becoming pregnant?
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abstinance is the ONLY 100% effective method, I have no sympathy if you didn't practice that
Ah, more Puritan values.

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(Rape is another issue, those mothers deserve and need ALL the support the community can give). <...> But I do not feel I or anyone else should be forking over tax money because someone forgot to keep their pants on.
Got it. You're either raped (and were a virgin beforehand, of course) or a harlot, who deserves to suffer the miseries of poverty because of your whorish ways. And your children deserve to suffer too, right? Their punishment for being born to these evil mothers. The sins of the mother and all... we're apparently not mentioning fathers here, or their failure to support the children they sire. I'll go ahead and affix my scarlet "A" to my forehead right now.

I'm glad most of the country has moved a bit past those times. The sexual revolution came and you missed it, apparently.

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Old 02-05-2005, 06:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PrincessPerky
I personally find welfare and all systems associated with it to be horrible.
On that I can agree. I dislike it for many reasons--because it's demeaning to those on it, and it creates a situation where it becomes difficult, if not impossible to get off it, but also because I don't like my tax dollars used to forever support others. Like I said before, I'd support welfare as a temporary measure, just not a lifelong one. (And I'm not blaming the people for it being lifelong--I'm blaming the system. Yes, some abuse it, but most don't.)

As to the "vices" of others, that of course, is entirely subjective. Once one receives welfare/food stamps, etc., they're expected to be accountable to the gov. (and taxpayers) for how they spend it. (Exactly why most people don't want gov. involvement in their homeschooling!) But who should decide what's worthy of purchase and what is an unneccessary expense? Some people see milk, eggs and cheese as staples--others would find them expensive luxuries. I've seen a lot of people on welfare buy "junk" but you know, Kool-aid is a heck of a lot cheaper than 100% fruit juice. And quitting smoking is incredibly hard to do--while I don't like the idea of my tax $$ being spent on cigarettes, I completely understand the need for them and the difficulty in quitting, especially while under stress. (I haven't priced either lately, but are nicotine patches cheaper or more expensive than cigs?)

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Old 02-07-2005, 02:27 PM
 
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I'm not a libertarian. But I am completely opposed to institutionalizing or legally regulating any basic life process. To be blunt, I think that is insane and anti-life.

Someone mentioned school being optional. Parentally speaking, not necessarily. Parents have the right to make it mandatory for their children if they wish. Governmentally speaking, not necessarily either. In some (most?) areas, it is legally mandatory that children have some form of schooling and/or testing (whether in an institution or at home) and have this supervised by and reported to the government, and there are penalties for not complying. If it were truly optional, my family would not need to be "underground" and would feel safe informing anyone we meet that we unschool.
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Old 02-07-2005, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Vices, is a relative term for wants. Call 'em wants if you like, point is I don't want to pay for yours or anyone elses. And I will not ask you to pay for mine.

Judgement, yes I do have judgement, I try very hard to keep my judgments out of the picture when offering help. But comeon, you want my sympathy for people who cheat the system? You want me to feel sorry for people who go get an extra baby so they can have more welfare, WHILE paying hundreds each month for wants rather than needs! (see changed my wording just for you)

So if that makes me puritanical to ask that everyone try to pay their own way, if I am more concerned with peoples NEEDS than wants, than guess I must be.

I do consider any single mom to have made a mistake, weather it was lack of life insurance for the now dead man, or chosing the wrong man, or just plain not caring about the man, children need the best support system they can get. Now does that mean they need to be judged and on and on, no. but admit it, work around it, help others not make it. of all the single parents out there, they all made just as many mistakes as I did, only luckily mine only left me flat broke, but not in need of help. Like I said, luck. I am not the most religious person in the world (nor the best speller) but I do really find the line "there but for the grace of God go I" to really hit home. I am paying for all of my mistakes, I am not asking you or anyone else in the world to pay for them. Taking welfare to pay for wants is asking someone else to pay for your wants. If I fall any lower I have more wants I can give up (only food, clothing, and shelter are needs).

As for many single parents, they do make the most of what they have availible, some cheat the system, some figure they will be on it for the rest of their lives and teach their children how to cheat. Giving them money will not change the trouble significantly from the current situation. Only there wont be so many tricks to use.

The only way, in my opnion, to 'fix' the welfare system is to make it all product, no money, IE soup kitchens and dormatories, yeah some would still stay in the dorms and eat in the soup kitchens with no intentions of leaving, but they wouldn't be able to trade there mattress for wants, after all why trade when anyone can the same free. I suppose you wouldn't like what that would do for their 'dignity' Well I don't find a welfare mom with plenty of wants fulfilled on the taxpayers dollar to be very dignified.
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Old 02-07-2005, 05:03 PM
 
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Hey, just a question, I was reading most of these posts, but can't keep up right now. Is Libertarian a form of Republican? I noticed a GOP guy on tv earlier refer to the Libertarian wing of the party. Would you Libertarians be caught dead with a Republican? Just wondering, Call me stupid, if you want to I already know it is it's own party.
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Old 02-07-2005, 05:48 PM
 
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...

The only thing you owe to others is to behave with integrity.
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Old 02-07-2005, 06:14 PM
 
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I do consider any single mom to have made a mistake
Wow -- that's quite a statement. *Any* single mom? As far as I'm concerned, this is only true in so far as the statement "We all make mistakes" is true. You say you are just "lucky" that you didn't wind up in that situation, but if it's luck, then how can you justify the punitive response you seem to favor? Your possition seems to indicate that you *don't* think it's just luck -- that poor people are poor only because of choices they could have made -- and should have known to make -- differently. True of some, probably, but reality is more complicated than that.

I used to work in the food bank system. The attitude of many of the volunteers running local community or church based food pantries was similar to your own, and was often a big obsticle to getting available food out to people. They insisted on serving up what *they* thought people needed or "should" have, rather than what might have been truely helpful and given needy folks some options. They seemed convinced that options and flexibility would lead to "taking advantage". The few pantries that were most generous and flexible found that not to be the case at all. In the most open systems (some in the "worst" parts of inner cities), where people were trusted more, the poorest of the poor would be concerned about not taking too much so that others even less fortunate would have enough. It's being treated like criminals or idiots that causes most people to lose their inhibitions about cheating the system. IMO.

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Old 02-07-2005, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by PrincessPerky
Vices, is a relative term for wants.
So anything you don't *need* is a vice? That's not the definition the rest of the world uses, FWIW....

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As for many single parents, they do make the most of what they have availible, some cheat the system, some figure they will be on it for the rest of their lives and teach their children how to cheat. Giving them money will not change the trouble significantly from the current situation. Only there wont be so many tricks to use.
If cheating is the only way people see to make decent lives for their children, I'm darn glad people "cheat". If I hadn't "cheated" by stashing financial aid money, we'd most likely still be living in a Section 8 apartment, getting food stamps and other aid. "Cheating" helped me give my child a decent early childhood, and "cheating" is what enabled me to get off the system. Kind of ironic, really...
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The only way, in my opnion, to 'fix' the welfare system is to make it all product, no money, IE soup kitchens and dormatories, yeah some would still stay in the dorms and eat in the soup kitchens with no intentions of leaving, but they wouldn't be able to trade there mattress for wants, after all why trade when anyone can the same free. I suppose you wouldn't like what that would do for their 'dignity' Well I don't find a welfare mom with plenty of wants fulfilled on the taxpayers dollar to be very dignified.
Kind of like the Poorhouses and Workhouses on the nineteenth century, then? Yes, there's a system worth returning too...

If you've looked at the research on homeless shelters, the ones that are set up like apartments, giving people privacy and yes, dignity, have a far higher success rate (as defined by people becoming self-supporting and still being self-supporting 5 years later) than those set up dormitory-style. Treating people decently - humanly - pays off in the long run, economically. Giving people the ability to make their own choices about their lives leads to people who takes responsibility for their lives. Giving people just enough to meet what you perceive as their "needs" keeps them dependent on you. Going further than meeting people's very basic needs affirms their humanity and worth, and enables them to grow stronger.

I notice you don't mention the children at all. If you're blaming the mothers for making "mistakes", are you also blaming the children for making the "mistake" of being born to the wrong mothers? Why is it right for these children to live in poorhouses and eat soup, and for other children to have things like a real home, and maybe even toys or books? Children who are deprived - and the scenerio you envision, with dormitories and soup kitchens, is definitely a deprived life for a child - suffer long-term ill effects. Is this morally right?

"The moral test of a society is how that society treats those who are in the dawn of life the children; those who are in the twilight of life the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life the sick, the needy, and the handicapped. . ."
Hubert Humphrey, former Vice President of the United States

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Old 02-07-2005, 07:12 PM
 
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If you've looked at the research on homeless shelters, the ones that are set up like apartments, giving people privacy and yes, dignity, have a far higher success rate (as defined by people becoming self-supporting and still being self-supporting 5 years later) than those set up dormitory-style. Treating people decently - humanly - pays off in the long run, economically.

Dar
OT (But what the heck, the whole thread is ot! ) Are you familiar with the Pathways program in D.C.? The stats are pretty amazing, compared to traditional welfare/shelter stats.

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Old 02-07-2005, 07:18 PM
 
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Wow. Not only is PP's statement scary in its extremism, her view is pathetically flawed in its very logic. So, paraphrasing, EVERY single Mom made a MISTAKE. Including those who are single through the death of a spouse (because the spouse had no life insurance). Right? Well, would life insurance have kept the guy alive? No. So regardless of whether the resulting single mom is poor or rich due to said insurance, she is still, natch, a SINGLE MOM.

What a mistake, to have your husband die of cancer! What a mistake, to have the Pill not work for you! What a mistake, to have your husband be a sociopath who abandons you after a planned pregnancy!

I say from now on until such a time comes when we are undeniable assured a safe and happy future, we should all remain celibate. Oh, wait. There goes the human race...
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Old 02-07-2005, 08:35 PM
 
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I think that, in order to have made a mistake, one needs to be responsible for the choice in the first place. I also think that individuals can decide for themselves when they've made a mistake--no one else should do that for them.

Since non of us has control over the fathers of our children, we all are potential single moms, like it or not. That would mean that all of our children are mistakes. Clearly, a cruel idea.

It doesn't matter if a woman chose to be a single mom, or if she chose to be a mom with a partner--it has no bearing on her ability to parent. Some families are much better off without dear 'ol dad around. Those who didn't plan to be single mothers also didn't choose to have bad relationships--blaming the woman for the man being a poor father/partner/person or punishing the child doesn't accomplish anything.

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Old 02-07-2005, 08:47 PM
 
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Ooooh you really hit a nerve with me, *PrincessPerky*.

I'm a single mom. I happened to have children with a man that I greatly loved and cared for. But geuss I should have honed in my psychic abilities to know that he would become a raging lunatic drunk who called me a bitch everyday and threw my furniture around. I should've known. Fuck me.

My life is the best it has ever been right now and my only mistake was staying with that drunk asshole for as long as I did. Next time I'll make sure to come to you before deciding which person to try to make some sort of happiness with.

And boy, you got me figured. I'm really cheating the system by getting foodstamps so that we can live a comfortable life. Yup, you got me. I'll just turn myself in right now. Do you really know how difficult it is to cheat the system? Your only allowed so many years on actual cash assistance and then you can never have it again in your life. You'd have to do some really crazy shit to work around that one. It doesn't matter if you keep on having babies, you only get so much time.

I geuss I'll be surprised if my posts stays since I SWORE.. oh the horrors, but damn woman, you really are messing with the wrong group of women. The single mama's here are fierce and strong... not a group to be making brash judgement calls on.

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Old 02-07-2005, 08:54 PM
 
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Seasons already said it very well. You are being totally judgemental and lumping all single Moms together, which is crazy.

Umm, I didn't "accidentially" get pregnant ... I was married, financially stable and 26 ... Alex was PLANNED and greatly anticipated. Two years later, I'm divorced. It happens. Should I have stayed with my x while he continued to have affairs, lie to me and lie while we were in counseling? Would that have been a good example to raise my son in, to let him know it's ok to be treated like that? No, of course not.

There are lots of reasons why people become single parents ... only one of them being accidental pregnancy. People like you who ASSume and judge drive me crazy.

"But there for the grace of God, there go I" ... it could be you.

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Old 02-07-2005, 09:10 PM
 
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Been reading the whole thread...don't see how it pertains to homeschooling .... but anyway....not quite sure where I stand. I certainly see both view points and have solid beliefs in both of them.

I've got a few friends who found themselves on welfare and the ONLY way to get off of it was to 'cheat' the system and stash the money , or sell what the system gave them. Or work 'under the table' with obviously no benefits to save CASH so they could LIVE and MOVE ON.

I'm reminded of this verse... and choose to camp there :

MATTHEW 7:1-5:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again . And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye."

(bold emphasis mine)
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dar
So anything you don't *need* is a vice? That's not the definition the rest of the world uses, FWIW....


If cheating is the only way people see to make decent lives for their children, I'm darn glad people "cheat". If I hadn't "cheated" by stashing financial aid money, we'd most likely still be living in a Section 8 apartment, getting food stamps and other aid. "Cheating" helped me give my child a decent early childhood, and "cheating" is what enabled me to get off the system. Kind of ironic, really...


Kind of like the Poorhouses and Workhouses on the nineteenth century, then? Yes, there's a system worth returning too...

If you've looked at the research on homeless shelters, the ones that are set up like apartments, giving people privacy and yes, dignity, have a far higher success rate (as defined by people becoming self-supporting and still being self-supporting 5 years later) than those set up dormitory-style. Treating people decently - humanly - pays off in the long run, economically. Giving people the ability to make their own choices about their lives leads to people who takes responsibility for their lives. Giving people just enough to meet what you perceive as their "needs" keeps them dependent on you. Going further than meeting people's very basic needs affirms their humanity and worth, and enables them to grow stronger.

I notice you don't mention the children at all. If you're blaming the mothers for making "mistakes", are you also blaming the children for making the "mistake" of being born to the wrong mothers? Why is it right for these children to live in poorhouses and eat soup, and for other children to have things like a real home, and maybe even toys or books? Children who are deprived - and the scenerio you envision, with dormitories and soup kitchens, is definitely a deprived life for a child - suffer long-term ill effects. Is this morally right?

"The moral test of a society is how that society treats those who are in the dawn of life the children; those who are in the twilight of life the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life the sick, the needy, and the handicapped. . ."
Hubert Humphrey, former Vice President of the United States

Dar

I just had to quote this whole post.

I have read the whole thread. Wow. I just don't know what to say, that really hasn't been said. I think Dar shoold run for President. Really.

My father was a big fan of Hubert Humphrey.

~Joan, Happy mom to 2 beautiful kiddos, one new puppy and 2 lovely felines
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:18 PM
 
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Yes we all make mistakes. I really hope I never make the mistake of making sweeping generalizations as an excuse to withhold compassion.
All the trouble in the world is caused by ignorance and a lack of compassion for others.
I chose to have children and my story happens to pretty much mirror what wemoon said. My children are not a mistake. My choosing to have children with an idiotic jerk was not even a mistake as they would not be here now.
Princess, you say you do not allow the government to pay for your "vices" such as red meat. Do you raise your own cattle? Are the farmers in your area subsidised? Or do you get your red meat from a large company which is reaping the benifits of corporate welfare? In any case, you may lose your appetite for it when you realize that you are eating welfare meat.
Be careful about assuming that somebody's needs are the same as yours. Do you withhold things such as teddy bears for your children because those are wants and not needs? I mean, how many blocks do they really need afterall, you only need two or three to build a tower. Yay, fun.
I really hope that someone with your attitude is never behind me in line at the grocery store deciding that I should be buying only rice and beans for my kids while you load your T-bone steak onto the conveyor belt.
Sheesh, you gotta lighten up on people. If you take the chip off your shoulder, you may find that life can actually be quite fun.
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:25 PM
 
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Original topic, new idea:

Rather than getting rid of the schools, rather than what someone mentioned in giving homeschoolers a teacher's salary (nice, but unless I'm teaching 20-40 kids I don't think anyone's going to agree to that), rather than anything that's been mentioned, how about taking the per-child money that schools are given based on attendance, and giving that amount to the homeschoolers.

So if I am teaching 3 of my kids, our family gets the amount for 3 children in the local school district. I've already made the decision to stay home rather than go out to work for money, so I'd be OK without a salary. But to have whatever amount the school/district gets per child attending that day, now that would be nice. It would help keep up the "plant department" (home and yard), would help with transportation for field trips, would help buy books and crayons and paper. And so on.

The problem with this, though I think there are fewer problems with it than with other ideas, is that someone would inevitably cheat on it and perhaps ruin it for others. But perhaps that possibility could be written into it somehow...we know some people cheat, perhaps we can just be OK with that as a society.

*****
My father's mother was a traveling schoolteacher in the early 1900s in Montana. Rode a horse to the houses of students, stayed with different students' families. And I'm quite sure taught them far more than what is being taught today in school. Once she got married she could not be a schoolteacher any longer, but had 6 children, all of whom went on to higher education and some even work in higher education (one uncle is in the Genetics dept at UNC Chapel Hill, one uncle does something in a teaching capacity at Harvard, and so on). And her husband died in his late 40s, making her a single mom for most of her life.

My point with that is agreeing that the old style of school was probably a lot better than the institution we're stuck with now.

Another thought came from a mention of teaching several ages all at once. I'm a firm believer that mixing ages helps the younger children learn faster while helping older children have empathy for younger children. It could also help the older children learn to teach others, if they are ever called upon to tutor/mentor/help the younger ones.

I went to a small elementary school that was OK. In 4th grade my mom switched us to an even smaller school closer to where she was working (a winery on a hill an hour from our home). It was officially a one-room school, though it was separated by large furniture. The kindergarteners (spelling? I went to Montessori instead of kinder-whatever and never figured out if it's a d or a t!) were in the library, 1-3 grades were on one side of the large shoe/possessions shelving, and 4-6 (and one 7th grader whose mother was not ready for him to "go down the hill" yet) was on the other side. The children there scored higher on tests and plain old KNEW more than my other elementary school, and I strongly believe it was because everyone was being exposed to more than just their own grade material.

*****
In the last page or so, you (the OP) went kind of far afield.

It sort of sounds like you were or are a single parent...if so, acknowledging that might be a good thing. Without that information (if I'm reading between your lines correctly) it sounds like you're being really awful.

You say: "weather it was lack of life insurance for the now dead man"...can I take it for granted that you, a homeschooling and not-working-for-money parent do have ample life insurance, so that if you die your partner can afford to stay home, with NO other income, and continue what you have started? Because otherwise, if you die, your child/ren will end up in the same situation that you are seeming to condemn.

As to the other stuff, I'm of about 4 different minds.

My own mother, an otherwise great woman, definitely did choose to have 2 children with a man who had already (over what was already a 6 year marriage) shown himself to be an abuser, philanderer, liar, and jerk. When she divorced him it was no surprise that child support was rarely available. From her, I know that feelings about children in that situation are complicated. I know that sometimes she regretted her decisions, but at the same time she loved us very much so she couldn't *really* use the word regret. If she'd divorced before children and found someone else, she perhaps could have had children in a better situation, but they wouldn't have been the same children and we were good kids that she loved and liked, so gosh those feelings sure do get complicated! She was a beautiful woman who was in great demand even with the dating-disadvantages that being a single mother brings, so she could definitely have found a more worthy man to love and marry before having children.

When she died, my father (a relatively reformed man) wanted to go to the funeral, to support me. I knew that was a bad idea and refused, and when I told my brother, he said he would have left if our father was there. My brother doesn't yet see our mother as a human who made some interesting choices...I had different information directly from her, and knew that she got pregnant, without her husband's explicit permission, twice...she chose the environment to raise us, and so I see her as a human who sort of, yeah, did what could be viewed as a "mistake"...though to actually say that would be to deny the fun and good times we had, although we were desperately poor. Complicated! Sometimes I wish she'd chosen differently so she could have had a better life, even though by doing so I wouldn't exist and neither would my own beloved son. Complicated, even for a child from that situation!

I also have a good friend who didn't want a child but got pregnant (not planning but due to a drunken bad decision with her long-time boyfriend), was basically forced by the father and their parents to marry...a few years later during a rocky time decided a second child would shore it up (that thought should be abolished b/c I can't name a time that it's worked)...and a few years after that she left her family. She's a wonderful woman who chose a rock-solid (though crazy-making) man to be the father, and he is a *great* custodial parent. She loves her girls very very much and sees them whenever possible. She has a great job that allows vacations to Costa Rica and Morocco, and she has also shared with me that she has very complex feelings about her choices to have her girls.

Back to my mother, she did live on welfare and food stamps for a few years. It was very very important to her to be at home with us at the beginning, so she did what she had to do. She did smoke (until she was 35), she did drink...those naughty vices. However, we also had a garden and chickens for eggs, so not all our nourishment was coming from welfare. I got an at-home mom for about 4 years; my brother got her for 2. On one hand I wouldn't trade that time for anything; on the other, it must have been ridiculously hard for her. Later on, she shared with me that she'd often feign not being hungry at restaurants...she would just have coffee so that we could have full meals. My heart broke when she told me that; I would have gladly given her my milkshake, if I knew she was starving herself for us.

But you know, if someone outside was looking at this, they could be terribly judgemental! She had us in a bad situation on purpose, she stayed at home with little income, she took us out to eat, she sometimes bought cigarettes and wine with what money came in. Horrors!

But we had a great time and learned a lot (I was reading at 2), and as soon as she simply had to (and found a Montessori school that would trade cleaning for tuition AND would accept my brilliant 2 year old brother), we went to that school while she worked her bum off in low-paying jobs for years.



And of course there are plenty of women who were completely blindsided by the decisions of their boyfriends/husbands, when they thought they were safe in a relationship with all bases covered. Unfortunately, we can't be responsible for the unchanging decisions that others make. I was in a situation where I was comfortable then my partner changed his mind, and my whole universe nearly changed. He changed his mind back, however, and now I'm as comfortable as I *can* be, with that in our background. But plenty more people have partners who change their minds once and won't change back (let alone do the work to show they won't do it again), and ONLY hindsight can possibly show that their seemingly solid decision was wrong.


At the end of all that, I think it's really no fair to call anything a mistake unless you are directly quoting a single-parent friend OR if you were intimately involved in the "mistake". If your friends have said "mistake" then say that. If you made what you feel was a mistake, say so. But the generalizations, ah, those are what tend to get ya in trouble...
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:42 PM
 
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I'm a little uncomfortable with the reactions from some who might not be reading all PP's words, so I'm being obnoxious by taking them out from between the hot-button phrases and posting them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessPerky
Now does that mean they need to be judged and on and on, no. but admit it, work around it, help others not make it.

of all the single parents out there, they all made just as many mistakes as I did, only luckily mine only left me flat broke, but not in need of help. Like I said, luck.

I am paying for all of my mistakes, I am not asking you or anyone else in the world to pay for them.

Taking welfare to pay for wants is asking someone else to pay for your wants. If I fall any lower I have more wants I can give up (only food, clothing, and shelter are needs).

I do NOT mean to judge where PP is in her healing from whatever has happened in her life, but I do know that there is a point in life when one realizes *their OWN* mistakes, and in trying to acknowledge that, one might start putting that onto others. It might be that's where PP is. This might change in time (I'm sorry, I used to HATE it when people told me that what I was going through was a "phase", but after a number of what-turned-out-to-be phases passed and I continued to evolve, I finally had to admit it...of course, what I'm doing now might be construed as exactly what I'm saying PP is doing...augh) or it might not.

But it surely does seem that she's been in similar situations, and feels that she has made mistakes and is extrapolating to others and their situations. I feel that that makes a difference in how we read her words, and I hope that it can help people feel more gently towards her, if people feel it is warranted.
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mom4tot
I just had to quote this whole post.

I have read the whole thread. Wow. I just don't know what to say, that really hasn't been said. I think Dar shoold run for President. Really.
Great Idea!! I agree
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Old 02-07-2005, 10:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mollyeilis
But it surely does seem that she's been in similar situations, and feels that she has made mistakes and is extrapolating to others and their situations. I feel that that makes a difference in how we read her words, and I hope that it can help people feel more gently towards her, if people feel it is warranted.

She chooses to decide what circumstances in her life were or were not mistakes. I make the same choices. I know that my children were not a mistake and neither was my choice to be a single mom. I'm proud of my life. There is no mistake in that either.

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Old 02-07-2005, 11:56 PM
 
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I agree with wemoon...

Having my dd was not a mistake.. i will never see it as a mistake..

and if u dont know someones whole friggin life circumstances then dont make generalizations...

im highly offended as a single mama... u dont know my situation at all.. and i dont feel i need to explain myself to you.. nor do i believe that you are the one almighty who gets to decide who made what mistakes and what classifies as a mistake...

all i got to say is...

Karma is a bitch...

Seperated, Cape Dress Wearing, Covered, Conservative Mennonite Mama to big girl K.
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Old 02-08-2005, 12:32 AM
 
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I do consider any single mom to have made a mistake, weather it was lack of life insurance for the now dead man, or chosing the wrong man, or just plain not caring about the man, children need the best support system they can get.
I am floored by this passage. I'm understanding this to read that single mothers have made a mistake at some point in the game & this is bad since "children need the best support system they can get" Not all single mothers entered into this by choice, many were completely blind sided with a situation out of their control. No one knows the future. Any one of the married mothers here could lose their husbands at any time for many different reasons. No one is above this.

I'm disgusted that you'd even consider mentioning this in reference to a woman who is a widow & then go on to refer to him as the "dead man". I'd suggest that you take a moment to read a few posts at the Loss board here. I think you could use some education on this subject. Perhaps I am misunderstanding and your husband has died. If that is the case, then I'm just shocked at your lack of compassion that came through in the comments quoted above.

I'm ending this here as I have nothing more to add that wouldn't get me booted from MDC.

Stephanie, mom to 3 big girls ('94, '99 & '02) and to my little guy (12/30/09) intact & CD'ed!
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Old 02-08-2005, 01:00 AM
 
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PrincessPerky- I strongly suggest you take a really really close look at your own life before judging others. The divorce rate in this country is astounding. I am willing to bet you that almost all of those people who will be getting divorced this year did not plan it when they got married. They did not get married and say "well, I think we'll stay married for 4 years, have 2 kids, and then get divorced". Nope, they thought they were in it for the long haul but ya know what? Life changes directions on us. You could wake up tomorrow and find out your husband has been having an affair, maybe even gotten another woman pregnant. What would you do then? What if he's not willing to change his ways and continues to have affairs- putting you at risk for various diseases and teaching your children it's okay to treat their future wives like that, or be treated like that by their future husbands.

What if tomorrow morning on his way to work your husband gets in a car accident and dies? Is that his fault? Maybe not. As another poster mentioned life insurance sometimes just barely covers the funeral. Then what? Then you need to find a way to pay for child care, rent, groceries, and other basic needs. On one income. Sometimes on minimum wage (if you've been a SAHM for some time it will probably be pretty hard to get a "great" paying job). You end up on welfare because, lets face it, a minimum wage job doesn't support a family. Even 2 minimum wage jobs doesn't always.

Being a single parent can happen to any one. All I have to say is Karma is a b*tch. Get back to me in 5 or 10 years and we'll see if you're still all high and mighty.

Steph, DH Jason (1-1-11), DS Owen (10-3-03) and DS Kai (10-13-11)

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Old 02-08-2005, 01:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mollyeilis
...how about taking the per-child money that schools are given based on attendance, and giving that amount to the homeschoolers.

So if I am teaching 3 of my kids, our family gets the amount for 3 children in the local school district.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Once you take government (taxpayers') money, you are made to be accountable for how you spend it. This opens the door to all kinds of oversight by the state.

I don't want the state to tell me what I can and can't spend money on. I don't want to have to follow the state's scope and sequence, or prove to the government that my kids are on the school's grade level or that they're being fed the information that the state feels they should be fed, etc. etc.

We homeschool because we want something different for our children. I want LESS government control in my life--this plan would bring more.

Single Mom to 3 (12, 17 & 21)  luxlove.gif and dog2.gif.

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Old 02-08-2005, 01:52 AM
 
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Once you take government (taxpayers') money, you are made to be accountable for how you spend it. This opens the door to all kinds of oversight by the state.

I don't want the state to tell me what I can and can't spend money on. I don't want to have to follow the state's scope and sequence, or prove to the government that my kids are on the school's grade level or that they're being fed the information that the state feels they should be fed, etc. etc.

We homeschool because we want something different for our children. I want LESS government control in my life--this plan would bring more.
EXACTLY!
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