So am I the only libertarian? - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 127 Old 01-29-2005, 10:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
PrincessPerky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I posted in a different thread that all public school should be dropped or at least made voluntary and possibly only go up to reading and tax instruction. I was wondering how others thought. I have noticed that many posters here don't mind schooling so much as their local school. I personally feel the trouble is a bit more widespread.

I found a few quotes and websites on my side of the coin. I was wondering what other alternative schoolers thought.

"School reform is not enough. The notion of schooling itself must be challenged."
- John Taylor Gatto,
The Underground History of American Education

I am btw not an unschooler, I do like to teach, but I only teach what is enjoyed. Wouldn't be fun otherwise.
PrincessPerky is offline  
#2 of 127 Old 01-29-2005, 10:47 PM
 
hazeldust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Someplace Spooky...
Posts: 381
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
well i dont know what the definition of unschooling is but i understand it to be child led learning whether that be the child guidiung herself, or following a curriculum that he enjoys, basically avoiding putting the child in a learning position they do not enjoy. i have a friend whose daughter enjoys the structure of a curriculum, she enjoys worksheets and such so i still consider her unschooled. anyways i agree with you about the problem being more widespread. the child is not viewed as an individual and her personal needs are rarely taken into consideration. my son is 51/2 so i am at this point where i need some direction, ifeel like i need to figure out what i want to do for him. we have a couple of montessori schools here but even that is structured and though it is waaaaaay better than public education, (or seems that way to me at least) i still do not know if it the right chioce for us.
i was wondering what you mean by libertarian? i feel like i kind of know what you mean but i like to make sure.

Happiness despite misery is a great victory, I think...

caffix.gifSingle coffee loving and making mom to fencing.gifds, age 12, hamster.jpg dd, age 10, dog2.gif dd, age 7, flowerkitty.giftigress, cat.gifquinn, hyena.gifblack cat, and wool.gif beatrice the spider. Yeeehawww!!!

hazeldust is offline  
#3 of 127 Old 01-29-2005, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
PrincessPerky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am afraid I should have put more thought into the title, a libertarian is a political party that is against most government interference. I used it in the sense that I feel the government should butt out of schooling. I should have put it a different way.

OT on the schooling:
I have read up on unschooling, because I find manditory schooling a bad idea. The definition sounds fine, but I feel from my reading that an unschooler doesn't aprrove of limits in general, and doesn't approve of 'school work', or testing of any sort. OR paretn directed learning. I find my DS loves tests and loves schoolwork,and we like limits, hopefully I will do a good job and those limits will one day be his own. It worked for hitting (mostly .) I assume it will work for other things too. I often suggest something to him to see if he wants to learn it, but I do listen if he doesn't (except where silverware is concerned .)
I also feel from my reading that unschooling and AP parenting go hand in hand, truthfully the definition of AP parenting sounds nice too, but ... lets just say both kids are sleeping soundly in their own beds right now. Parenting, to me, is not all about them, it is about all of us living together, and I live much happer when I get to enjoy my DH ...fully...nightly. (ok most nights, DD had this cold last week, .. boy was it a looong week!)
PrincessPerky is offline  
#4 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 12:06 AM
 
Openskyheart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Northern California
Posts: 655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm not a libertarian. I'm a Green , but I still think the school system is broken, and getting more and more broken every year. I live in California - the land of constant educational reforms - and here we are, still broken. I'm on an e-mail list for California public school teachers and parents who discuss their opposition to testing mania, NCLB, etc. The state superintendent of schools used to post there too, trying to convince the posters that what was actually happening to them, and the kids they worked with wasn't actually happening. I, and many others told him real stories about real children who were being adversely effected by the state testing mania. We told him real stories about what "high stakes" was doing the lives of these children. We also asked him where *his* school age children went to school. Guess where? An expensive private school in the bay area! And he is the top dog in California, in total denial about what is really happening in the schools he's charged with overseeing.

He seemed like a genuinely nice guy, too. But when asked why he didn't send his own children to these "great" California public schools (and dontcha think a bazillionaire like he would live in a good district?), and when faced with real stories time and time again which he couldn't refute with platitudes about "reaching all children" and "improving schools" blah blah blah, he stopped posting.

When I was still working, I worked as a contract service provider in a public school classroom for autistic children as a speech language pathologist. The teacher was the best teacher I have ever seen, or known anywhere. She performed miracles with these kids day after day. The parents *loved* her. Their kids were talking, reading, laughing, interacting! Parents bought gifts for the classroom. They were beside themselves with joy! The administration (you already know what I'm about to say, right?) did everything they could to make her miserable. Another therapist who worked in the classroom - the OT - was useless, and ineffectual. I've worked with dozens of OTs through the years, and I have never seen someone so incompetent. Guess who the administration loved? The OT. And this was at one of the "top" schools in the district. It made me sick.

These are anecdotes, I know. I have hundreds of them. After going to public schools my whole childhood, working in them (never paid by them, though. Always paid privately, and contracted to work in them) or going to meetings in them, and having my son in one for 6 weeks before I literally walked into his classroom, picked him up, and walked out... I have no use for traditional public schools, and think they are far more whacked out and damaged than people know. Even more than very involved parents know.

Laura
Openskyheart is offline  
#5 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 01:03 AM
 
CAmomto1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Southern California coast
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Neither DH nor I are libertarian, but we are both former public school teachers and we both see merits to making public education elective rather than compulsory. The whole system needs an overhaul; the fact that it is compulsory is but one problem.
CAmomto1 is offline  
#6 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 01:26 AM
 
TiredX2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: it appears to be a handbasket
Posts: 20,475
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I posted in a different thread that all public school should be dropped or at least made voluntary and possibly only go up to reading and tax instruction.
I'm confused what you mean by this.

Should there be free public schools? What should they cover? (In your opinion)

 

 

TiredX2 is offline  
#7 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 01:42 AM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Hi, there!

I have been registered Libertarian since 1976, and these are my core beliefs. I have homebirthed my children, and homeschooled the older three alittle, and my youngest was homeschooled for the most part. I truly believe that most people are good and this should work to benefit them.

Instead, we have a school system that steals $, wastes $, demands more $, whereas it has been seen again and again in private schools and homeschooling that $ is not the problem.

I am looking for collaboration of this study, but one view of homeschooling over the past thirty years shows that it has closed the gap that exists between white and black students. I am lookng for what exactly and how the study was done.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#8 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 01:52 AM
 
TiredX2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: it appears to be a handbasket
Posts: 20,475
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Instead, we have a school system that steals $, wastes $, demands more $, whereas it has been seen again and again in private schools and homeschooling that $ is not the problem.
Unfortunately, many of the "real" problems are not able to be addressed within the school system so the only way they hope to improve is through increased spending (and, of course, all this damn testing adds quite a bit to the bill).

 

 

TiredX2 is offline  
#9 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 03:28 AM
AJP
 
AJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: land of the fruits and nuts
Posts: 1,877
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I definitely have libertarian leanings (although politically speaking I have some problems with the Libertarian party). When it comes to schooling, I absolutely think it should be totally voluntary. No compulsory schooling. As for the current school system, it is "broken" in many ways, but unfortunately, I think that ultimately it's actually doing the job it was designed to do, all too well. That job is to turn out compliant workers who need to be told what to do, who need external motivation and validation, who have been programmed to not think for themselves. Some private schools aren't much better, IMO. They have the same goals as public schools. Realization of human potential is not part of the equation.

There is no secret ingredient.
AJP is offline  
#10 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 03:53 AM
 
Linda KS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessPerky
I posted in a different thread that all public school should be dropped or at least made voluntary and possibly only go up to reading and tax instruction. I was wondering how others thought. I have noticed that many posters here don't mind schooling so much as their local school. I personally feel the trouble is a bit more widespread.
I'm not a total Libertarian, but I lean that way. I totally agree that school should be voluntary. I think schools should truly be public and that everyone should be able to use them (or not) as they see fit -- like the public library or a public golf course. I don't think they should be run like jails, with people doing time.

I think that if the feds want to do something about education, they should publish a suggested scope and sequence for each grade and leave it at that. How hard would that be? Why haven't they ever done that? Why does the Department of Education do? I don't think they should test or in anyway attempt to enforce the scope and sequence. (I think it is beyond absurd that we are moving towards national testing but dont' have national standards).

I'm for charter schools and school vouchers and anything else that lets parents have more choice about how their kids are educated. Different things work better for different kids and the more choices people have, the better.
Linda KS is offline  
#11 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 07:32 AM
 
UnschoolnMa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Trying to release my cows..Join Me!
Posts: 15,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I lean Libertarian I think. I definately think schooling should be voluntary! (I know... big suprise right? lol) I dislike how many (most, in my experience) schools work. That's actually pretty funny because my career has been in working with (teaching I suppose) kids. I am nothing if not complicated .... sigh. Anyway, I pretty much think the whole system is flunking (lol) and all the testing blows.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats a man who can do him absolutely no good."
peace.gif  Embrace the learning that is happening within the things that are actually happening!    
UnschoolnMa is offline  
#12 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 10:24 AM
 
SagMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,979
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Libertarian leanings here too. I suppose if I HAD to pick a party, it would be that one. (But I'm not entirely against taxes--I just think they should be handled on the local level and cover a very minimal number of things.)

I think ps should be done away with. I'd like to see resource centers or community centers with buffet-style choices for ALL people (children and adults) to use or not use as they please.

Single Mom to 3 (12, 17 & 21)  luxlove.gif and dog2.gif.

SagMom is offline  
#13 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 10:42 AM
 
sunnmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: surrounded by love
Posts: 6,447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda KS
I think schools should truly be public and that everyone should be able to use them (or not) as they see fit -- like the public library or a public golf course. I don't think they should be run like jails, with people doing time.
I like this idea
I think schooling should be voluntary, but I do think they are necessary (at this point in time). If there were no schools, I would worry about the children of those who can not teach their kids really important skills because they, themselves, do not have those skills (reading, consumer math, speaking English). And, of course, those families are typically in the lowest income bracket, so the least likely to be able to afford alternative education.

eta: I guess it's obvious, then, that I am a bleeding-heart, liberal democrat :LOL
sunnmama is offline  
#14 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 11:36 AM
 
splendid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,594
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
By nature I am an independent. Somehow I just cannot stick to a certain party.

OT: If anyone has the time can they suggest a good libertarian website/book that discusses libertarian philosophies.
splendid is offline  
#15 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 12:32 PM
 
oldcrunchymom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: On Mulder's Desk
Posts: 2,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've been a registered Libertarian for over ten years and a card-carrying member of the party when I can afford it (not right now, though).

I do not think public school should be voluntary, but rather done away with completely. The choice to school and the method of schooling should be a private matter. If someone, or a group of people, wanted to set up a school free to all, that would be fine, but attendance should not be mandatory and they should not be taking money out of other people's pockets to fund it.

My children. My responsibility. NOT the government's.
oldcrunchymom is offline  
#16 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 12:51 PM
 
oldcrunchymom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: On Mulder's Desk
Posts: 2,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by splendid
By nature I am an independent. Somehow I just cannot stick to a certain party.

OT: If anyone has the time can they suggest a good libertarian website/book that discusses libertarian philosophies.
Here are a few websites explaining libertarian principles:

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/sop.html
http://www.self-gov.org/
http://www.lpty.org/lp-overview.html
http://media.supereva.it/super.freew.../haylock.htm?p
oldcrunchymom is offline  
#17 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 01:20 PM
 
Wilhemina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Villa Villekulla
Posts: 2,373
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan
I think ps should be done away with. I'd like to see resource centers or community centers with buffet-style choices for ALL people (children and adults) to use or not use as they please.
Wouldn't that be great! I love this idea. One of the reason I look forward to the summers is because dd has her pick of cool "camps." Short courses (1-5 days) on a wealth of interesting topics. No tests, just great activities exploring a subject she has chosen with other kids also interested (ideally anyway - I guess some are put there without a say by parents looking for babysitting).

I would love to see this kind of a system year round.
Wilhemina is offline  
#18 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
PrincessPerky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiredX2
I'm confused what you mean by this.

Should there be free public schools? What should they cover? (In your opinion)
I am rather willing to use my LOCAL tax money to support free reading instruction and tax assistance. I am not willing to have any of my money used to force children into institutions. They should cover ONLY what a person volunters to learn.

I would also support local money to making science centers and such, cheaper, with possible classes for people interested. I know there already is local tax money going in, but could you imagine what the science center could do with 8,000 times the number of kids in PS right now? I bet a whole lot.

BUT I would so stress, only VOLUNTARY. And only locally, that way if you don't like it you can move. On a federal level, it doesnt give them permission in the constitution for a very good reason.

I think the buffet style thing is great, and I do support some free education, especially in ready, it opens up whole new worlds when children like to read. One reason I went to highschool is that my mother felt I needed to play with 'lab' type stuff, chemicals and such. I personally had no intrest in it, but I am glad my DH had the chance, I wish there were an easy and obvious way for my DS when he is old enough (right now baking soda and vinagar are still impressive enough .) Easy without having to send him to PS.
PrincessPerky is offline  
#19 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 01:49 PM
 
splendid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,594
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks lckrause I will be sure to check those links out.
splendid is offline  
#20 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 03:57 PM
 
LeftField's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Land of well-adjusted weird people
Posts: 2,528
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is a genuine question. What would happen to children whose parents don't read to them, talk to them in a meaningful way, model learning and attempt to provide enrichment? I'm not a lover of the institution of "school", but I worry about those kids.
LeftField is offline  
#21 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 04:34 PM
 
Kylix's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: drifting off in space
Posts: 1,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=sunnmama]I like this idea
I think schooling should be voluntary, but I do think they are necessary (at this point in time). If there were no schools, I would worry about the children of those who can not teach their kids really important skills because they, themselves, do not have those skills (reading, consumer math, speaking English). And, of course, those families are typically in the lowest income bracket, so the least likely to be able to afford alternative education.

[QUOTE]

I too like the idea of a real "public" school much like a public library etc. but I think that schools should still exist. They just shouldn't be mandatory. I am thinking about those children with families who use school as an escape. I think of some of my friends and their childhoods and school was the only place they could go to get away from their insanely abusive parents. It's really sad because they weren't learning there so it wasn't an education, it was just a refuge.

I too am an independent more so than someone who aligns themselves with one of those two main political parties (though if I had to...I would go with democrat) so I dont know if consider myself a liberatarian.

Kylix
Kylix is offline  
#22 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 07:10 PM
Dar
 
Dar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 11,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I tend to have my "in a perfect world" ideals, and then my "in this world" ideas.

In this world, I think we need to retain some form of free childcare for working parents. The economic blow to many families if school-as-childcare disappeared would be staggering.

In this world, I think there are parents who either don't want to be responsible for their child's education, or are incapable of doing so at the present time because of the damage done to them by schools, or for other reasons. There are also parents who truly see the school-education their children are getting as optimal, for the child and the family.

I'm not a libertarian. I've spent most of my entire working life with people who need special help in one way or another, and that has perhaps skewed my perceptions of how much governmental help people need. Still, I think there is a sizable population of people who do need help, and the government does actually manage to provide it occasionally. The government is made up of people on the front lines, and it's really these people who are sometimes able to help. A lot of people just aren't able to provide everything they and their families need.

The tricky part, of course, is determing who needs help and who doesn't. Clearly, right now, mistakes are made in botrh directions. The gov't steps in and takes over with parent who don't need help, but are doing things differently. The gov't also fails to step in and help parents who truly aren't doing an adequate job of caring for their children, or people who aren't doing an adequate job of caring for themselves. Working with the Seriously Mentally Ill population for 4 years taught me this, quite clearly. People I knew died because they couldn't care for themselves, and no one, no agency helped.

I've wandered a bit afield. As far as schools, I think we need to overhaul both the schools themselves - we need to leave a few children "behind", so that they can blossom at their own speed, and we need to create schools that focus of creating happy, competent people, rather than people who can do worksheets - as well as the system of schooling. We need to create a whole continuum of options, and judge our outcomes differently. Parents should have the right to educate their children as they see fit - as it is now in many states - and the same financial support that public school students have now should we expanded to other sorts of programs.

Some of that is happening now, with charters and other programs, but we need to go farther. I do think having Resource Centers or Community Centers open to the entire community would be a grand use of tax dollars. I also think local communities shouls have more freedom in determining how their tax dollars are allocated, whether on traditional schools or other programs. Eventually, I would like to see education as a sort of learning smorgasbord, with options for everyone, at any age, and the only "accountability" being the choice of the people to stay with a program or not and the choice of theb people whether to continue funding a program or not.

Long-windedly,

Dar

 
fambedsingle1.gifSingle mom to Rain (1/93) , grad student, and world traveler earth.gif


  

Dar is offline  
#23 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 07:50 PM
 
MamaTT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: in my new house!
Posts: 1,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just wanted to say that I am another lurking libertarian. We are out there....
MamaTT is offline  
#24 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 09:46 PM
 
phathui5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 17,474
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
What would happen to children whose parents don't read to them, talk to them in a meaningful way, model learning and attempt to provide enrichment? I'm not a lover of the institution of "school", but I worry about those kids.
I would hope that friends, family or neighbors would intervene. In fact, I remember as a kid my mom reading to neighborhood kids and feeding them lunch (we lived in a not good part of the city for two years). However, I don't think that we should force every kid into school for 7 hours a day because we're worried about a minority of kids that it truly benefits.

Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
13yo ds   10yo dd  8yo ds and 6yo ds and 1yo ds  
phathui5 is offline  
#25 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 09:58 PM
 
SagMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,979
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftField
This is a genuine question. What would happen to children whose parents don't read to them, talk to them in a meaningful way, model learning and attempt to provide enrichment? I'm not a lover of the institution of "school", but I worry about those kids.
In *MY* world, schools would exist for those who WANT to use them. If someone wants to use the schools because they can't or don't want to do it otherwise, or because they need daycare, then that would be available. It wouldn't be funded by tax dollars though.

Single Mom to 3 (12, 17 & 21)  luxlove.gif and dog2.gif.

SagMom is offline  
#26 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 10:10 PM
 
raleigh_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ok, I have a serious question too, not sarcastic. Isn't this why homeschooling is legal in all states? In that manner, isn't school optional? I choose to homeschool my kids, my neighbor chooses to send her to school.

I like reading this thread. Gosh, what a different world it would be if it were voluntary or non-existent. It would entirely restructure our economics and culture to do away with schools. Not saying that would be good or bad, but it's interesting to think of all the things that would have to change.
raleigh_mom is offline  
#27 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
PrincessPerky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There is a lot of important ideas brough up here, I love it

I think in respose to the 'what if the parents won't or can't teach' the answer is A. they are in the minority still, and B. the numbers grow BECAUSE of the ps system we have. When I hear parents lamenting the lack of manners taught in school I want to rant at them for not doing it! Who made schools the be all and end all of apropriate behavior! (answer polititicians who wanted good little voters)

In response to "what about people who truly need help" there would be MORE private institutions offering to help if there were less assumption that the govt did it all. Instead of thinking 'there auta be a law' or 'why wont the govt help' we need to think 'what can I do to help and get others involved'. I for one would gladly teach and or read to my friends neighbors, people at school etc. I like to teach, bring me an interested kid I'll give you a learned kid!
PrincessPerky is offline  
#28 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
PrincessPerky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh and needing school as a daycare, this is again a case where since there is so much availible there is so much use, it creates a dependancy. If we take it away yes there would be a major upheaval, but we should settle down to a country where people take care of there own kids and do not leave them for 6,7, or 10 hours a day so that they can afford the fancy car and all that 'stuff'. Now there are some single parents that MUST have help. Again if we stopped assuming the govt would od it all there would be more willingness in the community to help. Not total, but more. I again would help anyone in need, but for the free daycare they need to prove to me that the cable is cut off, the manicures are gone, and quite a few other splurges that I can't have are out. THen I will assist with childcare.
PrincessPerky is offline  
#29 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 10:58 PM
Dar
 
Dar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 11,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So free childcare is only available to children whose parents you deem worthy? What happens to the rest of them?

Compulsory education began in the US 100 years ago, in large part, as a way to provide childcare for children whose parents had to work. Prior to compulsory education, these children were either working in the factories alongside adults (starting at age 4 or so) or caring for themselves. Being a certified Poor Person, I have personally known many children, 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 year olds, who spent hours caring for themselves when school wasn't in session. And yeah, some of their moms got manicures sometimes. A manicure will pay for a couple of hours of childen for 2 school-age children. Giving up manicures won't solve the underlying problem.
Quote:
there would be MORE private institutions offering to help if there were less assumption that the govt did it all
The idea that private institutions would step in and take up the slack if the government stopped helping people hasn't been borne out by the facts. After the welfare deforms in the nineties, private charities were stretched to their capacities and beyond, and countless people - children - fell through the cracks because there simply weren't resources available for them. We've tried this idea, and it hasn't worked. People have suffered. Children have suffered. Private institutions can't or won't help all who need help.
Quote:
I think in respose to the 'what if the parents won't or can't teach' the answer is A. they are in the minority still
Do you really think so? About 98% of parents currently chose school - a vast, vast majority - so where do you get the idea that a minority of people can't or won't teach? If they can and will, why are they not homeschooling now?

I do think schools should be voluntary - they really are already, because one can homeschool or unschool. But I also strongly feel that they should still be free and available, becuse children will suffer if they aren't. Not your children, or mine, but the children living in the impoverished farm community where I sub definitely will, and I care about them, too. I wish there were more educational options for them, but cutting off access to free schooling would hurt them.

Dar

 
fambedsingle1.gifSingle mom to Rain (1/93) , grad student, and world traveler earth.gif


  

Dar is offline  
#30 of 127 Old 01-30-2005, 11:04 PM
 
lizzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: A Whole New World
Posts: 4,298
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is mostly just getting on board with PrincessPerky's last two posts, but as a pp said:

In *my* world ....not having institutionalized education would force (in a happy way!) parents to really evaluate when, where, how and what their children were learning and absorbing...

...knowing all along that they wouldn't be able to afford 'daycare' because it would no longer be masquerading as education, parents would choose to manage their lives differently so that they could actually raise their children themselves....

...I'll get crazy and say that maybe MAYBE (as if, but I can dream!! ) if more responsibility were sort of forced onto parents in regards to how the lives of their children went, and we all grew up seeing how much a parent really should do in order to truly parent well, MAYBE people would seriously consider whether or not they should have the little darlings in the first place... maybe. Just, yk, possibly...

So, yeah... I'm definitely leaning towards the libertarian-ish approach. I think the PS system is more damaging now than beneficial. I haven't read it yet, but there's a book out there called "Uncle Sam's Plantation"... I can only imagine that it's about daycare and public schools and the institutionalization of our children...

They start telling you to pick a career to focus on when you're 13 (!!!!??)... at least, that's when they told my class to start figuring that out... and that was 18 years ago! (I told them I wanted to be a funeral director )Tell me kids don't get brainwashed to the "9-5 gimme gimme perpetuate that economy" subconcious mindset before they can even drive... I can't surrender my beautiful babies to that life. I won't. *NOT* knocking higher education, but so many people tell me all the things I've missed by not having that 'college experience'.. (yes, yes... How WILL I teach my children without binge drinking and date rape in my resume?) (I was in the Navy and didn't even have to cope with that!)

So, I'm just figuring out what I want to do with my life now, and it has nothing to do with anything I learned during my multiple brick box experience. It has a lot to do with educating myself (HS starts with the mommy!) and learning not to expect things to be done for me (like when my supervisor would tell me I was on the dental list..? Can't even determine if you need to stay in bed for yourself, have to get up and go to 'sick-call' even if you have a 103 temp so THEY can tell you if you're sick enough to stay home...) by the gov't or anyone else, and figuring out how to be the best mama I can to the little ones I asked God to give me.

: sorry
lizzie

It's such a relief to finally trust yourself.
lizzie is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off