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TWTM? Charlotte Mason/Literature-Based Learning/Sonlight? ACK! HELP!

936 views 15 replies 7 participants last post by  Linda KS 
#1 ·
Hi mamas,

We are seriously considering homeschooling starting next year (dd will be kindergarten aged). She has been in preschool (full-day) this year and knows her letters, can write her name, can count to 100, can write most numbers, and is beginning to recognize a few sight words. She will be 5 in October.

I realize that for the kindergarten year no formal curriculum is necessary, although I'd like to have some kind of basic structure for both our sanities. Also I need to teach her the fundamentals of the Hebrew alphabet so she will be on par with her classmates if we decide to send her back to yeshiva (Jewish school) - where they do Hebrew immersion/religious studies half the time and English language-based education half the time (science, history, etc. are incorporated in both in a wholistic way).

I've been reading and reading (being the type-A that I am) and am very interested in both the "literature-led learning" idea of the Sonlight/Five in a Row kind of programs (I'm guessing these are Charlotte Mason based?) and the Well Trained Mind, which seems to be very structured and over-the-top but appeals to me. I used to be a college professor and know first hand how kids at a top university taking advanced courses could not write an effective essay, misspelled words and used improper grammar, and did not know their history or literature facts AT ALL. TWTM really seems to address these and give kids a basis for advanced literacy and confidence with language from a young age.

Can anyone comment on these ideas, how/whether they are integrated or can be combined? I'm not really good with a "free flowing" system; I and my daughter(s) will need some structure and guidance; we share the trait that in order to function happily and freely there has to be some guiding principles. It doesn't have to be rigid or all-encompassing, but I am looking for something a bit concrete, especially at the beginning (i.e. 1st grade). For next year I think I'd concentrate more on phonics and fun than anything else but I would like to start collecting stuff and have a rough road map so to speak.

TIA for any input!
 
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#2 ·
I adore the WTM concept and will likely use it or something similar, adding in perhaps more "world studies" than the authors suggest. They are very Western Civ. based, which is a bit more limited than the worldview I'd like to raise my children to have ("worldview" in this context meant in the secular sense).

We've been following the WTM pre-K and K recommendations now since October '04 and I'm astonished at how well our son is doing, how much he's grown intellectually, how he connects concepts across subjects and basically how grounded he is becoming in the basics. I couldn't be happier with his progress. There are lots of people I have met who use WTM in much less structured ways than that which the book outlines. If you like the basic concept you might look into tweaking the schedules to suit you better, as well as allow time for Hebrew studies.

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more about it!
 
#3 ·
We use FIAR for a long time and loved it. It was a blast and my kids learned a ton. What I liked best about it was the sort of questions and comments that made about other books after we started using it. They asked if books where set in real places that we could find on a map, or if they were set in places that the author had invented. They asked to make food from other countries. FIAR nurtured their curiosity and love of learning.

I'm very interested in CM also, but FAIR isn't really CM. CM didn't believe in unit studies, which is what FIAR is. Also, she didn't believe in formal education for kids until they were about 7. We are gradually becoming more CMish as my kids get older.

The Well Trained Mind does not appeal to me for young children. The author's statements about what children should be doing at young ages do not line up with other authors (Preschoolers at Risk by Elkind and Your Child's Growing Mind by Healy) who have researched it. (The author of TWTM just assumes that all kids should be able to do what her kids where doing. She did NO research on early childhood education, which includes K).

As my kids are getting older, I'm becoming more interested in what TWTM says about history and we are considering The Story of the World for next year.

Although I do want my kids to end up with a great education, I don't think that it is best accomplished by pushing them while they are young. There are many threads on this board about kids who are completely burned out by the time they are 6 or 7.
 
#4 ·
Gosh, we've tried just about everything you mentioned. That's the great thing about homeschool -- you can add a dash of this, a smidgeon of that according to your families' needs.

We enjoyed Sonlight K, but have no desire to ever do Sonlight again. The books are very good, it's nicely laid out. Really, though, we can read plenty of good books on our own without the Sonlight "plan". I think my favorite part was that the Instructor's Guide told me where to mark things on the markable map so I didn't have to figure it out for myself.

FIAR was a total bomb. My kids thought the whole concept just too weird, that we would read the same book 5 days in a row (what if we want to read it 5 times today, Mom? What if we hate the book? What if we want to read it once per month for 5 months?). Also, I thought the activities were lame. I could come up with as good or better for free by looking through the oodles of lit-based activity books at the public library -- and the children's librarians are happy to help me with this.

Charlotte Mason we have never tried in a "pure" form. We've read some of the lit. suggestions from Ambleside Online. We do incorporate poetry, art, nature and music into our week, and I'm a big fan of short lessons. Sarah Baldwin is going to be having a book study of Karen Andreola's Charlotte Mason Companion on the Charlotte Mason-Waldorf yahoo group (I forget the official name of the yahoo group, but it's the one about combining CM and Waldorf...lmk if anyone needs me to pin it down better).

I usually refer to TWTM as our homeschool basis, although what it looks like at our house is drastically different from what it looks like at other houses. Again, I took the things I liked and dumped the rest. I like some of the suggestions TWTM has for specific curricula (eg, grammar, handwriting), but think some of the suggestions are weak (science). I like the idea of having an overview of history and science in grades 1-4 so the child can get an idea of how varied and exciting the world is -- I see these first 4 years as a jumping off point for later studies (which will last a lifetime!). BTW, we use Story of the World, and it certainly has exposed us to *world* history, not simply Western Civ. India particularly stands out in my mind because our public library resources are so paltry on the subject, but we also visit Africa, Australia, China, etc. on a regular basis.

I think Susan Wise Bauer is an excellent writer. Have you read her descriptions of her homeschool day on TWTM website? It's a hoot. It also puts to rest any idea that TWTM is about hyper-scheduling kids, pushing them incessantly. Dds are 5 and 9, and so far the Well Trained Mind police haven't beat on my door demanding that we schedule more academics, kwim? (I have a bit of a soapbox about the idea that TWTM pushes kids to much -- umm, it's a book, folks, it isn't roaming our house demanding we follow it to the letter. That's why I homeschool, so other people don't tell me what to do, so why would I slavishly follow some book?)

Acutally, right now we're drifting more towards Waldorf. Who knows where next year might lead us? My kids like what we do, and have no concept that we're following a certain program.
 
#5 ·
Our family is just finishing up the last few weeks of the SonLight PreK. So far, the kids and I really enjoyed it. I am planning on using SL again in the future, although I'm going to wait for another year or two to use the SL K core, so I can combine my kids into one core.

I know of many families that integrate TWTM concepts into the SL curriculum, although many wait until 1st or 2nd grade to do so. I've seen many threads on the SL boards about the best ways to use SOTW with various SL cores (levels). It seems that many are able to integrate the two quite well.

Queen Qwen- thanks for the Ambleside Online link. I'd been to the site awhile ago, but had forgotten about it
 
#6 ·
First of all, your dc seems very smart! Not yet 5 and she knows so much!

I agree with those that say wait on structured academics until the dc is a little older. IMHO, early childhood should be a time for play. This is why I too do not agree with the suggestions for TWTM for K. But like previous poster said, you can tweak it a great deal. Maybe pick one or two things that appeal to you and fit your dc, and just do that for K.

When I began, It took me sometime to find what worked best for my dd and our family. What we decided to do,was to focus on finding a good phonics and math curriculum-and stick with it. Luckily, what we tried then, we've stuck with.(Dd loves Explode The Code Phonics and Singapore math-we do too!!)

K-FIAR. If she didn't like a book, we would skip that one, and go on to the next-or go off the list and pick something well written and make up our own activities. Lots of flexibility in FIAR. This is meant to be supplemented with a phonics and math program. The authors do have Christian heavy books, but you could just skip those. I think FIAR is a great well-rounded lit based program that instills the love of books in dc.

1st - We tried unschooling. We focused on phonics and math, and let her be the guide for everything else. THis worked well at first, but eventually, she and I both wanted more structure.

2nd- We used curricula suggestions from TWTM-and happily, Singapore Math was one of them. I loved the concept of introducing your dc to subject matters when they are developmentally ready for them-or "at their ripest" for retaining/learning something. We made it 2/3 through SOTW Vol.1-until dd said she just hated it, and refused to do it any longer. I stopped SOTW. We used First Language Lessons,Singapore math,ETC phonics, and used Zaner-Bloser for writing. I loved all of these.

3rd- She has just finished 2nd,but we school year round 6 weeks on, and 1 or2 weeks off,more off for religious holidays. I am combining TWTM and Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum( Catholic). I am using Math and Grammar suggestions from TWTM, and History and Religion from DYOCC. Other subjects we are pulling in from other sources. Monday she starts Latin as well. Oh yes!! We are using CM's Nature journal and scetch book.

HTH.

Peace,
mp
 
#7 ·
We have loosely used TWTM for two years with my 5.5 yr old and 7 yr old. I love the way TWTM cycles through history and science chronologically three times through the course of 12 yrs. I also like some of the ideas re: narration, making a timeline, teaching logic etc. However, to do the entire program would be too much desk work for our family. We rent a couple of acres and I like the kids to spend a good part of each day outside exploring and being kids. We used Phonics Pathways to teach reading (we started reading at age 4 for my son, because he wanted to learn) and we never had problems, but other families we know find the program too dry. We use Singapore Math. Sonlight has a great reading list but IMHO is overpriced and to script-y. Bum the list off of someone who invested in the program :LOL .
 
#8 ·
mamapoppins said:
Lots of flexibility in FIAR. This is meant to be supplemented with a phonics and math program. The authors do have Christian heavy books, but you could just skip those.
WHAT? Other than Clown of God, which is a Christmas book, I didn't find anything "Christian heavy," and I'm a pagan. (We've rowed all the books in vol 1-3)

We rowed Clown of God, which I thought was very good for my kids' cultural literacy.

We are planning to row vol 4 starting in the fall
 
#9 ·
This is a terrific discussion, thanks everyone for commenting and keep it coming!

I did order the Explode the Code series yesterday for dd because she seems just on the verge of "getting it" and I'm a bit stymied as to how to proceed. If she hates it, we'll return it. They're certainly cheap enough and I'm sure we can sell them or return them if she hates it. She loves doing stuff like that so we'll see.

I must say I've found the Well Trained Mind guide (the one by Jessie and Susan, mother and daughter?) a bit overwhelming. I really found that their arguments for the basis of classical education resonate; as I mentioned, I don't want my children to suffer the same deficiencies in basic literacy as I've seen with many of my (supposedly) advanced university students. But the amount of book-work seems drastic. I also really do like the Sonlight catalogue and the idea of it. Knowing that others seem to be able to make these two things work together is great because one can then meld the best of both.

I realize that every homeschooling experience and family has to do what works for them, but it's a bit intimidating at the outset not knowing what that will be and attempting to evaluate all the possibilities! Though she will just be in Kindergarten next year, I'd like to be able to take things as flexibly (slowly or quickly) as she needs. If I work my way into a plan it seems like a better choice than jumping in with both feet come September of 1st grade, kwim? Plus, making the "wrong" choice can be awfully expensive!
 
#10 ·
Oh My! Linda, it is quite possible that I am mixing book resources!!
:

FYI- I love Clown Of God!! Dd acted in a play based on this story! It was my first intro to Tomie De Paola!

I remember that the forums/boards at FIAR were super fundy Christian. Am I right there?

I have recently purchased "HONEY FOR A CHILD'S HEART"....perhaps this is where I remember some books being of Christian origin? HOWEVER....THIS IS AN AWESOME BOOK! I so highly recommend it, as it is so easy to just grab the book, dash to the library, and begin A-Z by Authors.....checking out books!!

mp
 
#11 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by mamapoppins
I remember that the forums/boards at FIAR were super fundy Christian. Am I right there?
YES! The boards aren't someplace I fit in, inspite of the fact that my kids and I love FIAR. Strange, isn't it?

Gaby'sIma,
I don't think you can go too far wrong with a literature approach because you are spending most of your money on really good books. Even if the WAY that you had planned on using them doesn't work for your child, you still have a pile of really good books. Guides to using really good books (such as FIAR, Sonlight teacher's manual, etc.) can either be bought second hand or sold when you are finished with them. Ebay, vergiesource, etc. make the financial risk involved much lower.

We use the library great deal. I use the computer to request the books I want, they get them from other branches, and then have them waiting for me at the desk.

We use different things for different subjects, so while we have bought a few things that just didn't work for my kids, it is was one subject, not our whole homeschooling budget that was blown. For example, I realized that the math program I had bought for my older DD, while a wonderful program, just didn't make sense to her. It was a $30 mistake -- less than dinner out for our family.
 
#12 ·
I do have to say though, that the FIAR boards and their archives are *FULL* of awesome activities and website resources. I will sometimes go there now, even though we don't row anymore.

I have tried so many times to use TWTM boards, but even though I have fast net service, it takes *forever*.

mp
 
#13 ·
It's very easy to get overwhelmed by all the choices, activites, etc. It's one of the reasons I'm attracted to Sonlight and TWTM especially at the beginning. I will (G-d willing) have a newborn in August and won't have much time to devote to searching out ideas, books, etc. Pre-reserving books at the library is fine as long as I know what I"m looking for!

Within each program, both Saxon and Singapore math are mentioned. How did you choose?
 
#14 ·
I read opinions and talked to people. I ruled out Saxon that way, as it sounded like something that would drive me nuts.

I tried Miquon because it was cheap and sounded great. It didn't work out. Then I bought one semester of Singapore (one semester isn't too pricey). It was better for us than Miquon, but still...not quite right. I continued to read inordinate amounts of opinions and books on how math is taught, how math is learned, how math should be taught (according to various theories). We ended up using RightStart, which has been great for us.

So, it was a matter of reading, discussing, looking over, trying, discarding, trying something else.
 
#15 ·
Yeah, pretty much what Queen Gwen said. I went through the archives here and a couple other places,including Homeschoolreviews.com(?), and then talked to some people IRL who had experience with either. Dh has a major in math, and he felt Saxon was too much waste of time drilling for younger grades. He read through Singapore's philosophy, and really liked the way they build concepts, and get the dc thinking through lots of word problems. Dd thinks like he does, was never really interested in too many manipulatives, and we just decided on Singapore. However, we will reconsider our decision after this grade, as many people switch to Saxon for upper grades. (?)

HTH.


mp
 
#16 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen Gwen
So, it was a matter of reading, discussing, looking over, trying, discarding, trying something else.
yep -- we did all that and are now using Miquon, which works well for both of my kids.

Saxon didn't appeal to me when I looked at it. We started with Singapore and my kids both enjoyed and did well with Early Bird math, but the Primary math is really, really different and wasn't a good fit at all. Next we tried Miquon, which fit and we are still using.

No one can tell you what will work best for YOUR child. You can research and research and still end up with something that just doesn't fit. Every child is different. Rather than just considering what is the "best" program, try to figure out of the program seems like a good fit for your child.

One of the things that I LOVE about this board is that there are moms doing different things.

Congrads on your baby!
 
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