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#61 of 148 Old 08-18-2005, 02:00 AM
 
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We are low-income Native American family living on a reservation in Kansas right now and are homeschooling. There are not legal requirements for us that are different from any other Kansas homeschoolers. We are not restricted from teaching dd the language of her people by the state but by the lack of many living speakers of the language. If we knew it we could teach it though. There is a youth program for older kids. I think there is a lack of programs for younger kids in the tribe though.
The reservation is in a rural area and like any rural homeschooler we have to travel to a town big enough to have a library but we have the same access to resources as any homeschooler in the area.

The history of what schools have done to Native Americans is absolutely terrible. One of the reasons we want to homeschool is so my dd can learn about/from her shrinking tribe and get the least biased version of her ancestry/culture that we can provide. I do not trust public schools to do that. It isn't the only reason to homeschool but definitely up there in our list.

You might be interested in these links even if you do not feel able to homeschool full time:
http://www.geocities.com/nuwahti/NAHE.html
http://www.expage.com/page/nahomeschool2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NAHomeschoolers/
http://www.turtle-tracks.org/
http://www.homeschoolingonashoestrin...firstamer.html
http://www.oyate.org/aboutus.html
http://www.cradleboard.org/main.html
http://www.cowboy.net/native/

Kim ~mom to one awesome dd (12)

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#62 of 148 Old 08-18-2005, 03:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm so glad someone in the know spoke up with resources. I am not Native American, but I grew up in Tucson near the res and I can't stand the way that the Tohono O'Odham and other tribes have been marginalized and destroyed by white culture. I honestly think that a resurgence of Native American culture can and should happen, and homeschooling would be an ideal tool for that resurgence to occur -- basically, a reclaiming of their real culture. I honestly think this would go a great long way to end some of the social problems that some Native Americans have experienced, much of which (at least it seems to me) are due in no small part to an alienation from their very selves, their very souls, the land they lived on and the life they lived, the crafts they knew, the languages they spoke.

Is it amazingly naive to suggest that maybe wiping the last 350 years clean and going back to the old ways is a good idea?


Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyzombiecat
We are low-income Native American family living on a reservation in Kansas right now and are homeschooling. There are not legal requirements for us that are different from any other Kansas homeschoolers. We are not restricted from teaching dd the language of her people by the state but by the lack of many living speakers of the language. If we knew it we could teach it though. There is a youth program for older kids. I think there is a lack of programs for younger kids in the tribe though.
The reservation is in a rural area and like any rural homeschooler we have to travel to a town big enough to have a library but we have the same access to resources as any homeschooler in the area.

The history of what schools have done to Native Americans is absolutely terrible. One of the reasons we want to homeschool is so my dd can learn about/from her shrinking tribe and get the least biased version of her ancestry/culture that we can provide. I do not trust public schools to do that. It isn't the only reason to homeschool but definitely up there in our list.

You might be interested in these links even if you do not feel able to homeschool full time:
http://www.geocities.com/nuwahti/NAHE.html
http://www.expage.com/page/nahomeschool2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NAHomeschoolers/
http://www.turtle-tracks.org/
http://www.homeschoolingonashoestrin...firstamer.html
http://www.oyate.org/aboutus.html
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#63 of 148 Old 08-18-2005, 01:48 PM
 
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Just another 2 cents on the subject of talking about homeschooling -

When my son was in school in 1st grade, I was very frustrated (to say the least!) about some of the things both he and I had to put up with. A friend mentioned to me that she had seen a group of families around town who homeschool their kids, and that maybe that was something I should look into. I knew nothing about homeschooling - it sounded pretty weird to me. A few other people mentioned there was a "wonderful little homeschooling program" at the local school. I didn't think much about it, but it started to sound more feasible.

Then one night while I was thinking over the logistic concerns of starting a tiny little private school - the only solution I'd been able to figure out - I suddenly realized that we could homeschool and be able to travel and to follow studies in any way that worked well for my son. And he'd be able to see a lot more of his dad. We'd be able to be on our own schedule! Freedom! By morning, after a sleepless night full of thoughts of the wonderful things we'd be able to, I had decided to homeschool - rolled over and told my husband that's what we were going to do. He was pretty stunned, but trusted me (especially since I told him we could sign up with the local school to tell us "how to do it").

While waiting for a spot to come open in the local public homeschooling program, we kept him in the school I hated. I always regretted that. Then I called the local homeschooling support group to get information about their field trips, and the leader told me one of their neighbors had just moved into our neighborhood. I went over to meet her, and tried to ask her about homeschooling, but she didn't really want to talk about it much. She told me that one day she'd go through her old homeschooling magazines with me, but never did. One of the times I was trying to find out more, she told me she didn't want to" influence" me. I started going to their support groups, but they didn't want to talk about "homeschooling" with a newbie - they just wanted to be left to their social conversations about what was going on in their lives (which, of course, I can now understand, since they were some of the early unschoolers, and hadn't yet developed a way of articulating their philosophy so someone from outside).

In the fall, we started into the little local public school "homeschooling" program, and those people were great - friendly and supportive - and of course they were into talking about "homeschooling" (which, at the time, I had very different notions about). After a very short time, it became obvious that we didn't need anyone to "tell us how to do it," but we stayed on for the friendly support and little get togethers. Eventually, as the state became more controlling, we got out and went independent - which was wonderfully exhilarating. Good grief - I'm rambling!

But what I wanted to get to was that I think it's great for homeschoolers to chime in once in awhile to let people know there are alternatives that they've found to work. Not that they should try to convince anyone who isn't interested, but just that it can sometimes be nice to be there when someone is feeling stuck with a situation that isn't working. I think we're all parents first and foremost, and not really divided into neat little groups of school-believers vs. home-schoolers. We're all just looking for ways to do the best for our children - and, of course, sometimes school can work just great for some kids. - Lillian
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#64 of 148 Old 08-18-2005, 03:14 PM
 
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Kim, thanks so much for sharing your web resources!! :
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#65 of 148 Old 08-19-2005, 06:32 PM
 
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I just wanted to respond to the original post, since it did start out in the learning in school forum.

We've actually given our school options a lot of consideration, only to conclude that public school is the right decision for our family. Not everyone believes that it's some kind of comprise to go to a public school. Quite the contrary, in fact: We happen to think that public school is a *very* important element of democracy, and one *very* worth participating in. Issues such as conformity are a problem in our American society as a whole, and not isolated to schools. I don't see how isolating ourselves from the rest of the school-attending population is going to protect us from dealing with those sorts of problems. For us, it'll be an important part of being involved in our community. I also don't see that my family will expect teachers to be solely responsible for educating my daughter, but rather I expect it to be a partnership betw school and community and family.

Also, if I found that L was not thriving at public school for whatever reason(s), and we ended up doing something else such as homeschooling, well I'd actually feel pretty disappointed about it because it really goes against my values. Ultimately though, I'll do whatever is in my child's best interest.
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#66 of 148 Old 08-19-2005, 07:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadie_sabot

I also want to remind people that in order to homeschool, you need a stay at home parent, which requires a level of economic privilege that many of us simply do not have.
I don't homeschool my older daughters because if I did my ex-husband would get custody. I understand what the original poster was saying and for the most part I think he is right. That is not to say that there are not exceptions to the statement.

Most people who want to homeschool are able to. I think that one of the biggest myths about people who homeschool is that they all have some sort of economic advantage. I certainly have not witnessed this phenomena in our local homeschool association. Most of the members are barely scraping by.

I have to pipe in here as someone who is extremely offended by being told I am living in luxury and privilege. We make some serious sacrifices in order for me to be at home with my children. My husband and I are certainly not economically privileged yet we manage by scrimping and sacrifice. There are parents in our homeschool group who work opposing shifts. There are even single moms who homeschool and work evenings and weekend jobs.

ETA My whole point being, there does not need to be a stay-at-home parent. Homeschooling is flexible and can be accomplished many different ways.

Stephany
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#67 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 11:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytolittlelilly
We've actually given our school options a lot of consideration, only to conclude that public school is the right decision for our family. ... Also, if I found that L was not thriving at public school for whatever reason(s), and we ended up doing something else such as homeschooling, well I'd actually feel pretty disappointed about it because it really goes against my values.
From your other posts it sounds as though your child isn't yet school age. It is odd to me that you posted a defense of public schools in the homeschool forum when you child doesn't go to them. If you child actually attended public school I wouldn't say anything, but you've got a 2 year old.

Many homeschooling parents pulled their kids out after bad experiences and were very disappointed that it didn't work out.

Have you done any research about how school socialization affects girls?

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#68 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move
Have you done any research about how school socialization affects girls?
Funny you should mention that; I just got into a discussion with my mom about it.

I was reading the book Counseling the Gifted and Talented, ed. Linda K. Silverman, and Silverman's point regarding gifted girls is that socialization is NOT

repeat: NOT

an appropriate goal for gifted girls. While gifted boys' peer groups are fine with their academic differences (provided that they make up for it by their ability to play team sports), girls' peer groups demand rigid conformity.

Quite often, gifted girls will camouflage their abilities in order not to stand out, and "go underground," a decision that can have serious consequences when they veer away from challenging math and science courses (and the careers that go with them).

Basically, it's not worth it. Not sayin' I was or am gifted, but my "socialization" in school was a neverending nightmare and it's one major reason "why I homeschool."
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#69 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 02:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommytolittlelilly
We happen to think that public school is a *very* important element of democracy, and one *very* worth participating in.
Could you explain this to me? I'm not trying to be snarky or even to argue it's truth, I'm really interested because I don't see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytolittlelilly
Issues such as conformity are a problem in our American society as a whole, and not isolated to schools.
I was never a member of the *they better learn to deal with it now or they never will* school, but I realize that is a matter of opinion. Bear in mind however, that rarely are you going to see issues like conformity, bullying, and the like present in the intensity with which they exist in school culture. Add into that the fact that the kids have little to no power to avoid them or even effectively deal with them and it's just not worth it IMO.

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Originally Posted by mommytolittlelilly
I don't see how isolating ourselves from the rest of the school-attending population is going to protect us from dealing with those sorts of problems. For us, it'll be an important part of being involved in our community.
Your view of homeschooling as being isolating and separate from the community is not accurate. I doubt I could keep my children separate from the *school-attending population*, not that I want to. We are very active in our community (volunteering, youth sports, rec department programs, library), just not in the local public school.
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#70 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 02:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
I was reading the book Counseling the Gifted and Talented, ed. Linda K. Silverman, and Silverman's point regarding gifted girls is that socialization is NOT

repeat: NOT

an appropriate goal for gifted girls.
I don't think that school socialization is good for any girl, gifted or not. I'm reading A Sense of Self: Listening to Homeschooled Adolescent Girls by Sheffer right now. The last book I read was Odd Girl Out (I can't remember the author). I cannot image any mom reading these two books and coming to the conclusion that public school socialization is what is best for her daughter.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#71 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 03:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire

Basically, it's not worth it. Not sayin' I was or am gifted, but my "socialization" in school was a neverending nightmare and it's one major reason "why I homeschool."
I was gifted, so gifted in fact that when I moved from one high school to the next, I had enough credits to graduate a year early. I moved from a school that had an AP track to one that did not. While I found the socialization tolerable at the school where I was grouped with girls and boys of equal ability, when we moved to a school where this was not an option, I was socially tormented. So much so that I withdrew from school at the end of my junior year in order to escape the hellish experience. ETA They would not let me walk in my graduation because I lacked a quarter of a credit in P.E.

I just recently at the age of 33 have gone back to college. It took me that long to get over my fears.

My husband, also brilliant, was in the AP track at his public school but it was okay because he was also an All-American Water Polo player and a star on the swim team. This made him "okay" in the other boys eyes. UGH!

As far as research about how public school socialization impacts girls, there is always the classic "Reviving Ophelia" by Mary Pipher. She also wrote a book called "The Shelter of Ourselves" that deals with this issue.

Stephany
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#72 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
Silverman's point regarding gifted girls is that socialization is NOT

repeat: NOT

an appropriate goal for gifted girls. While gifted boys' peer groups are fine with their academic differences (provided that they make up for it by their ability to play team sports), girls' peer groups demand rigid conformity.
Do you have an actual quote? Or are you actually talking about *school* socialization here, rather than socialization in general? Because otherwise I strongly disagree... aside from the occasional hermit, I think socialization is important for everyone... it's just a matter or how and with whom.

For some 4 year olds, socialization within the family may be enough, but I do think older girls - gifted or not - need social interaction outside the family setting. As a former "gifted girl", I would have gone crazy without my friends... and my daughter needs the patchwork of social relationships she's developed, she would be miserable without them. OTOH, I don't think there's a single other 12 year old girl in the bunch, so clearly the very limited social opportunities provided by school wouldn't be very helpful for her.

Dar

 
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#73 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 03:18 PM
 
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I might be wrong but I believe Silverman's book specifically addresses school socialization.

Stephany
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#74 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 03:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytolittlelilly
I don't see how isolating ourselves from the rest of the school-attending population is going to protect us from dealing with those sorts of problems. For us, it'll be an important part of being involved in our community. I also don't see that my family will expect teachers to be solely responsible for educating my daughter, but rather I expect it to be a partnership betw school and community and family.

Also, if I found that L was not thriving at public school for whatever reason(s), and we ended up doing something else such as homeschooling, well I'd actually feel pretty disappointed about it because it really goes against my values. Ultimately though, I'll do whatever is in my child's best interest.
Holy mackerel... I absolutely hate debating online, but I have to comment on some of this. First of all, homeschoolers are not at all isolated from the rest of the school-attending population.

I could go on and on about that, but the bottom line is that homeschoolers are involved with all sorts of people in the population at large. If you were to homeschool, you'd know that first hand and find remarks like that pretty startling. Homeschooling does isolate you from certain things that go on in the classroom. That's a whole different thing. But not having to deal with boredom, lack of respect and/or understanding, rowdiness, bullies, "group think," and many wasted hours/years of going over material that should take a tiny fraction of that time to cover, as well as not having the ever so important freedom to pursue your own path, does not in any way handicap homeschoolers in the real world.

I know any number of young adult homeschool grads who are remarkable examples of how growing up outside the box can provide for unique, active, caring, and deeply thoughtful members of society. My own son, for example, went 2,000 miles away from home to volunteer full time for a year in an inner city soup kitchen that's part of a support system for the homeless, most of the guests (up to 175 a day) in that particular center being addicts or mentally ill. He's now about to go off to college to pursue more skills in the social sciences and writing. He has homeschooled friends who have gone in all different directions - one just got to participate, by invitation, in an archaeological excavation of an older level of streets at Pompeii; one is a grad student at Tufts on full scholarship and just got back from studying drumming in Africa; two go to school part time while working as theater lighting specialists; one graduated in a specialized science major that he got the college to provide for him and now runs his own Internet services business. Over twenty of my son's friends have been organizing a nonprofit organization that will use their various talents and abilities to help with causes they feel strongly about. They've compiled and organized all of their skills, interests, educational backgrounds and useful contacts into what will soon be a searchable database. I'm rambling - but one of my buttons seems to have been pushed by the notion of homeschoolers as "isolated."

As for the idea of expecting a partnership between the teachers, community, and family, I just want to point out that many, many homeschoolers, including myself, started out with that idea, and finally gave up after giving our all and finding ourselves struggling in exasperation with one school situation after another. One thing I had to consider was whether I wanted to spend year after year after year having to deal with struggles and adjustments to different personalities that had ways of dealing with children that we didn't consider professional or acceptable. I didn't have the kind of child teachers find challenging, by the way - he was a positive, quiet and polite child who wanted to please - but the kindergarten and 1st grade years, plus lots of observation in schools I looked into as alternatives, convinced me that a classroom wasn't the best place for his needs.

As for working outside the school system being against one's values, I'd like to add that plenty of homeschoolers felt the same way in the beginning when they were trying out school. Along the way, they began to realize that keeping their own children in impossible conditions did not in any way support society. Some of the most hard working and dedicated school volunteer parents become some of the most hard working and dedicated homeschoolers - and they find lots of other valuable ways of contributing to society. Come to think of it, the act of raising emotionally intact, socially competent children with intact values and good life skills is a great contribution in itself.

I have known kids for whom school worked absolutely fine - and some kids really need to be surrounded by all the commotion, action, and personalities in school - especially those who don't have a great situation of mutual respect with their parents. And there are some very good teachers out there. So I'm not at all "anti-school," but I have heard lots of the same problems/complaints pop up again and again in conversations among parents who have their kids in school. Parents just need to stay alert and keep an open and respectful dialog going with their kids, so that they all understand exactly what's going on in their lives.

Although I've expressed some pretty strong opinions here, I want to be clear that this isn't aimed at one person's remarks - those remarks are actually pretty common ones that I've heard over the years from people who have not yet experienced homeschooling first hand.

Lillian
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#75 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You betcha. Actually, she's primarily talking about school, but not exclusively. Socialization with same-age (but developmentally younger) kids appears to be a really, REALLY bad idea according to the abundant research upon which Silverman draws. Here's from p. 300:

Gifted girls are chameleons. From the time they enter preschool, they learn how to blend in with their peer group so that they are "just like" all the other girls. If a girl's social group is developmentally much younger than she is, she will frequently don the mental attire of her friends, and will soon be imperceptible from them in thought, manner, and achievement....Gifted girls commonly hide their abilities for fear of being rejected by their peers.

From p. 306: Socialization is not an appropriate goal for gifted girls. Kerr (1985) suggests that the women gifted women are not counted among the eminent is tha they are too socialized. Their advanced intelligence enables them to be more sensitive to what other people want. They are eager to please their teachers, parents, and peers, and they receive so much reward for being what others want them to be that they learn to be content using only a small portion of their potential (Conarton & Silverman, 1989).

Hope that helps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
Do you have an actual quote? Or are you actually talking about *school* socialization here, rather than socialization in general? Because otherwise I strongly disagree... aside from the occasional hermit, I think socialization is important for everyone... it's just a matter or how and with whom.

For some 4 year olds, socialization within the family may be enough, but I do think older girls - gifted or not - need social interaction outside the family setting. As a former "gifted girl", I would have gone crazy without my friends... and my daughter needs the patchwork of social relationships she's developed, she would be miserable without them. OTOH, I don't think there's a single other 12 year old girl in the bunch, so clearly the very limited social opportunities provided by school wouldn't be very helpful for her.

Dar
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#76 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 04:25 PM
 
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I guess I was shielded from the "chameleon" effect by my rather impaired interpersonal intelligence. I do remember frequently accusing my best friend growing up (who was bright but also a two or one years ahead of me in school and a little over a year older) of behaving completely differently when around her school friends. Especially in middle school. I thought she was being fake. She was, rather, being socially adept and fitting in. She graduated near the top of her class, but never tried any honors or AP courses except for art (which was automatically honors the third and fouth years).

I tended to gravitate towards kids older than myself or towards fellow misfits. Mostly, though, I just didn't have many friends in school. It did help that I was sheltered from the worst of it by going to a small private school in junior high. There was very little cliquishness at school because the group of girls was only 5 or 6 of us, and it was a self-paced curriculum for core subjects so no one really knew who was ahead of whom or cared.

I definitely don't want my daughter to have to dumb herself down to fit in and be sociable! Just another reason I plan to homeschool (even if she's not "gifted", being even slightly above average seems to be a disadvantage).

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#77 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 04:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillian J


Come to think of it, the act of raising emotionally intact, socially competent children with intact values and good life skills is a great contribution in itself.
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#78 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
You betcha. Actually, she's primarily talking about school, but not exclusively. Socialization with same-age (but developmentally younger) kids appears to be a really, REALLY bad idea according to the abundant research upon which Silverman draws. Here's from p. 300:

Gifted girls are chameleons. From the time they enter preschool, they learn how to blend in with their peer group so that they are "just like" all the other girls. If a girl's social group is developmentally much younger than she is, she will frequently don the mental attire of her friends, and will soon be imperceptible from them in thought, manner, and achievement....Gifted girls commonly hide their abilities for fear of being rejected by their peers.
I agree with this, although again, I think it's true for many kids, not just gifted girls. I've seen, for example, many theatrically talented boys who had to hide their abilities - their passions - in order to get by and blend in at school.
Quote:
From p. 306: Socialization is not an appropriate goal for gifted girls. Kerr (1985) suggests that the women gifted women are not counted among the eminent is tha they are too socialized. Their advanced intelligence enables them to be more sensitive to what other people want. They are eager to please their teachers, parents, and peers, and they receive so much reward for being what others want them to be that they learn to be content using only a small portion of their potential (Conarton & Silverman, 1989).
I'm thinking that "women gifted women" is a typo?

This seems to have a lot more to do with pleasing teachers and parents than socializing with peers, though. In my exoerience, teachers in general dislike being challenged, whereas peers don't really seem to care as much. When I was in 8th grade, I had a science teacher who had dropped out of medical school, and she repeatedly mangled the pronounciations of various anatomical structures. My best friend and I absolutely delighted in corrected her in front of the class, because she would always get huffy and refuse to admit she was wrong, even when we had written proof. Our peers, on the other hand, really enjoyed the show...

There seems to be a contradiction here, too. I've heard many former gifted kids and parents of current gifted kids talk about how miserable it is for them or their kids to not be able to figure out how to interact socially with their age cohort and have friends... but this seems to be saying that gifted girls are extra-sensitive to what others want and thus are able to hide their abilities and fit in socially.

Regardless, I think that outside of the school setting a lot of the issues disappear..

Dar

 
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#79 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 05:16 PM
 
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have to pipe in here as someone who is extremely offended by being told I am living in luxury and privilege. We make some serious sacrifices in order for me to be at home with my children. My husband and I are certainly not economically privileged yet we manage by scrimping and sacrifice. There are parents in our homeschool group who work opposing shifts. There are even single moms who homeschool and work evenings and weekend jobs.
Thank you for bringing this up. I too am constantly irritated by the implication that because I SAH that we are living a live of privilege. I bristle when I listen to this from my SIL, who according to her "has" to work. Yeah, I guess if you buy a new SUV every 3 years, have to have a 4 bedroom house when you have 1 child, have never seen the inside of a thrift store (she thinks they are "gross"), have monthly gardening service and weekly housecleaning - then yes, you do have to work.

But even people who both work and don't have all those luxuries should still not dismiss our lifestyle choice as lucky or privileged. We worked and planned, and we sacrifice, to have one of us at home. Our original plan was for me to go back to work part time once the kids are in school so we could pay off debt, save some money, and give us some breathing room financially. But we are now pretty much planning to homeschool, and have decided that we will live with the ever increasing debt because it is that important to us. My dh even suggested selling our house and moving out into the boonies so we could live without a mortgage payment in order to make it work - that's how important it is to him.

And yes, I know that some families really can't survive with even the most basic of the basics on one income. But most of the families who insist that they need to both be working just have different priorities. And I am not passing judgement on that - we are all entitled to our different choices. But please have some appreciation for the sacrifices that families make to stay home to educate their children. It's been a hard decision for us to forgo the financial gains that we had planned for the next 15 years.
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#80 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 06:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oceanbaby
We worked and planned, and we sacrifice, to have one of us at home. .. But please have some appreciation for the sacrifices that families make to stay home to educate their children.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#81 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 07:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
You betcha. Actually, she's primarily talking about school, but not exclusively. Socialization with same-age (but developmentally younger) kids appears to be a really, REALLY bad idea according to the abundant research upon which Silverman draws. Here's from p. 300:
What about having friends? I think kids (gifted or not) need friends. The word "socialization" is very broad and includes friendship.

I also think there are numerous activities that provide kids with great opportunities to work on things together with age mates - scouts, 4H, drama club, etc. Would your view that socialization is bad for gifted kids extend to these types of things as well? If so, I disagree with you.

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#82 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 07:13 PM
 
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you know, i'm don't want to negate what you have done to be at home with your kids. i've done it as well. the issue really is not the 2 wohp with the new suv, the issue is people who are living at poverty level. yes, there may be a single mom who works two jobs and has no car that sucessfully homeschools. is it the norm? i don't think so.... when you are caught up in meeting basic, basic needs such as food and shelter, homeschooling becomes dicey.

yes, your choices and work got you to where you are. that is not mutually exclusive to being a privilege or having privilege though. i'm not saying it is horrible that you/we have this privilige--i am glad and hope that many more people get the privilege.

perhaps we have different interpretations to privilege. i consider it a privilege to have a roof over my head, food on the table all the time and to have health insurance. if these were guaranteed to all us citizens, then i would consider them rights. but they are not guaranteed.

yes, you (we) work hard for our choices, but there are lots of people working hard in the usa w/out much to show for it. there before the grace of <insert word of choice> go i.
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#83 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 08:18 PM
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perhaps we have different interpretations to privilege. i consider it a privilege to have a roof over my head, food on the table all the time and to have health insurance. if these were guaranteed to all us citizens, then i would consider them rights. but they are not guaranteed.
Privilege: A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste. (from dictionary.com)

I don't see how homeschooling is a privilege, based on this definition. I definitely don't see how food on the table all the time and a roof over my head are... I might agree with you on health insurance, but then I haven't had it for years. But just because every single person doesn't have a certain thing, doesn't make that thing a privilege - by that definition, pretty much anything could be called a privilege, and the word becomes meaningless.

There's no special right or advantage granted to me that enables me to homeschool. There are simply choices, and I make the ones that enable me to live this way. I'm actually a single mom working 3 jobs, although I do have a car... and I may not be the norm but I'm not the only one out there, either.

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#84 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 09:32 PM
 
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[i] I might agree with you on health insurance, but then I haven't had it for years.
Dar
Same here Dar, it is one of those frivilous luxuries we decided to forego in order for me to be able to stay-at-home with the boys.

Stephany
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#85 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 09:44 PM
 
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Same here Dar, it is one of those frivilous luxuries we decided to forego in order for me to be able to stay-at-home with the boys.
did i say that homeschooling is a frivolous luxury? did i say that staying at home was a frivolous luxury? :

that's right. i didn't.
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#86 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Dar
I agree with this, although again, I think it's true for many kids, not just gifted girls. I've seen, for example, many theatrically talented boys who had to hide their abilities - their passions - in order to get by and blend in at school.
Sure, or else they're smacked (sometimes literally) with the charming label of "fag." Sometimes it's true. That makes the labeling even worse.

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. My best friend and I absolutely delighted in corrected her in front of the class, because she would always get huffy and refuse to admit she was wrong, even when we had written proof. Our peers, on the other hand, really enjoyed the show...
Y'know, they should have a special seminar during teacher training called "Learning to Say 'YOU WERE RIGHT AND I WAS WRONG': A Valuable Classroom Management Tool." I've made a special point of saying exactly those words when I've been proven wrong by a student because I've sat in your seat too, Dar, and known that beyond the perverse fun of teasing the defensive loser teacher is also disappointment that they failed you in their professional capacity. And I am SOOOO not perfect that sooner or later, I am guaranteed to screw up on something, like the time I spent nine weeks misspelling "mandatory" as "mandantory." : I have no idea why more teachers don't realize that when they stop having to be the only person in the classroom who can be right, teaching gets lots easier.

Anyway, off my soapbox.
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#87 of 148 Old 08-20-2005, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think what appears to be key is finding friends who are on the same intellectual level as you are -- something we all do as adults without even thinking about it, but we do. I'll betcha that none of your thisclose friends is more than two standard deviations (30 IQ points, roughly) different than you. I'd further bet that they're all within 15.

Anyway, maybe idealistically, I'm hoping that homeschooling groups will allow that to happen, where she can pal around with someone who's 2 or 3 years older OR on the same academic level, or ideally both. If she were going to school, she'd be forced (effectively speaking) to be friends only with other four-year-olds.

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Originally Posted by Linda on the move
What about having friends? I think kids (gifted or not) need friends. The word "socialization" is very broad and includes friendship.

I also think there are numerous activities that provide kids with great opportunities to work on things together with age mates - scouts, 4H, drama club, etc. Would your view that socialization is bad for gifted kids extend to these types of things as well? If so, I disagree with you.
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#88 of 148 Old 08-21-2005, 12:10 AM
 
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. I don't see how isolating ourselves from the rest of the school-attending population is going to protect us from dealing with those sorts of problems. For us, it'll be an important part of being involved in our community.
how does it protect my kids to 'isolate' them ? the way i look at it is that if i allow my children to grow up in a loving, supportive environment where there self-esteem and spirit are allowed to flourish and remain intact, then when they reach adulthood, they are well-equipped mentally, emotionally and spiritually to cope with the problem you have described. i do not understand the mentality of why we think we must immerse ourselves in a 'problem' to actually learn how to deal with it. there are other creative ways of learning how to deal with problems without having to be directly involved in them. frankly the idea of having my kids face problems that they don't really need to before they are ready to cope with them would make me terribly sad.

and as many others have pointed out, i don't know any homeschooling families who live in isolation and are not involved in the community in some manner.

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#89 of 148 Old 08-21-2005, 01:58 AM
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Same here Dar, it is one of those frivilous luxuries we decided to forego in order for me to be able to stay-at-home with the boys.
We have proven quite well how it is a privelage and a luxury.

You have offered nothing to the contrary.
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#90 of 148 Old 08-21-2005, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
We have proven quite well how it is a privelage and a luxury.
Where did anyone "prove" that certainly homeschooling is a privilege and a luxury? Not in this thread.
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You have offered nothing to the contrary.
Well, except a dictionary definition, and the point that whatever definition you're using waters the term down so much so as to make it meaningless. Food is a privilege, because some people don't have it. By this definition, water is a privilege. Not being murdered in my bed tonight is a privilege. So, how exactly does this concept, as you've defined it, further any discussion in any productive way.

And luxury? How exactly is homeschooling a luxury? I kinda think of schooling as providing the luxury - 8 hours of free childcare a day, what a deal. And yet we're missing out...

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