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#121 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 10:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
So what if it's annoying? There's still no reason to make snarky comments about someone else's spelling. I used to be a copy editor, so I'm pretty alert to spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors. But that's not the point. Be annoyed all you want, but don't be rude.

Namaste!
:

I think that there are MUCH better things to complain about in this life than someone misspelling a word. Big deal! Now lets talk about things that REALLY matter, like tolerance. :LOL

With love,

Olivia
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#122 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 11:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
So what if it's annoying? There's still no reason to make snarky comments about someone else's spelling. I used to be a copy editor, so I'm pretty alert to spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors. But that's not the point. Be annoyed all you want, but don't be rude.

Namaste!
Kindly explain to me how it is rude to point out somebody's consistent spelling errors.
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#123 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 11:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stik
Which statement, now that I think of it, sums up the entire point that this thread was started to discuss - it's rude and unconstructive to go to the "learning at school" board for the sole purpose of pointing fingers at things that suck in an educational system you don't use and have no proposals for reforming.
I absolutely agree with the majority of posters who, at the beginning of this thread, said it was rude and unconstructive to respond to a "learning at school" thread with a curt, "that's why I homeschool."

However, I must take issue with the idea that homeschoolers don't participate in the school system and don't have proposals for reforming it. My children do not go to school, but I did teach in the public schools, still tutor public school students occassionally, and certainly work for local reform during election time. I have also been very vocal in my opposition to corporal punishment in the local public schools.

All homeschoolers participate with their tax dollars and are members of the community that relies on public schools to help educate its members: neighbors, workers, and leaders.

As for further reform ideas, I certainly have many - as I bet most homeschoolers do. If school boards, teachers' unions and other groups interested in bettering American public education were willing to acknowledge homeschooling as a viable and (statistically) reliable educational plan, they might finally begin hearing some of the great ideas and trends in learning that are blossoming in the homeschool community.
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#124 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 11:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by wynkenblynken&nod
:

I think that there are MUCH better things to complain about in this life than someone misspelling a word. Big deal! Now lets talk about things that REALLY matter, like tolerance. :LOL

With love,

Olivia
In that case, you should be 'tolerant' of my criticism.
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#125 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 12:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kristine
In that case, you should be 'tolerant' of my criticism.
Oh geez. You should learn the difference between constructive criticism and being rude.
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#126 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 12:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wolfmama
did i say that homeschooling is a frivolous luxury? did i say that staying at home was a frivolous luxury? :

that's right. i didn't.

no you did not dear nor did I call you out on this. It is another poster who I am directing that at and I apologize that I was being flippant when you were trying to make a point.

I work very hard every day in order to be able to stay-at home and I do not want to be labeled as some upper class rich suburban housewife who is bored with her life and decides to homeschool her kids for a lark.

I do agree with the sentiment that you and mocha have expressed in the broader sense. We are all of us each everyone, privileged to be sitting here on computers debating this subject. All of us are fortunate enough to have been born into wealth and to live in a place where we have these options. Of course you must understand as I define wealth, I am incredibly wealthy. As most of American society defines it, I am dirt poor.

I feel that you two are pointing out how incredibly lucky we are to have this option based on your perceptions of the world community and I totally agree with you. In other countries some mothers fight to be able to put their children in school. I think some of the confusion in this thread has to do with how each of us views the world. I tend to look at a conversation and try to gauge my responses accordingly.

I feel that this conversation focused more on the functional fixedness within lower/middle class society towards homeschooling. At least one person on this thread said that you have to be a stay-at-home parent in order to be able to homeschool. That is just not the case. I have seen many creative people solve this problem. I think that this learned helplessness that clouds the vision of many people today is a direct result of not being taught to think creatively. One of the many reason's I decided to homeschool the boys.

Stephany
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#127 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wynkenblynken&nod
Oh geez. You should learn the difference between constructive criticism and being rude.
Words like 'rude' are subjective.
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#128 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 12:50 PM
 
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As well as adult. My favorite is ignore, however. :LOL

Have a good day!

Olivia
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#129 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 01:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wynkenblynken&nod
As well as adult. My favorite is ignore, however.

Have a good day!
Agreed. But without giggly emoticons to detract from the point.

Hope you have a luvverly day as well!
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#130 of 148 Old 08-22-2005, 01:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mom2radata
I do agree with the sentiment that you and mocha have expressed in the broader sense. We are all of us each everyone, privileged to be sitting here on computers debating this subject. All of us are fortunate enough to have been born into wealth and to live in a place where we have these options. Of course you must understand as I define wealth, I am incredibly wealthy. As most of American society defines it, I am dirt poor.

I feel that you two are pointing out how incredibly lucky we are to have this option based on your perceptions of the world community and I totally agree with you.
thanks. that is all i am saying. i homeschooled this past year. my son is going to private school this year. yes, we work our asses off to make these things happen. yes, our choices impact this greatly. but i consider myself lucky and aknowledge that if i had been born in a different set of circumstances it might not have been feasible. sorry if i spelled that wrong--got a nursing baby in lap.
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#131 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 12:18 AM
 
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Now I really never wander onto the education boards but tonight I decided to check them out. My first stop...."Learning at School" as I have a brand-new Kindergartener.
I have to say, I was horrified when in the first two posts I opened there were repeated...."that's why I homeschool" and like comments.
Seriously. Not constructive, not helpful.
The only reason I saw this thread was because of the link from "Learning at School" since I don't currently homeschool (in case you're wondering why I'm posting in "Learning at Home and Beyond" when I'm not a homeschooler.)
I'd hope that most of the folks who made the "that's why I homeschool" comments might have some kids in school, also? Otherwise why in the heck would they be on the "Learning at School" board? Surely not just to flame, right?

Laura
Mom to three
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#132 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 01:17 AM
 
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Thank you mom2rdata. My intent was never to downgrade anyone for the sacrifices they make in order to homeschool. I'm nervous I came across as unsupportive when the fact is that I value every homeschooling family I know, both as an inspiration and as a resource. That, and I respect the hell out of you.

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Originally Posted by wolfmama
sorry if i spelled that wrong
Ha!
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#133 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 01:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mocha09
Ha!
Ha Ha!
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#134 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 02:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by didelphus
I'd hope that most of the folks who made the "that's why I homeschool" comments might have some kids in school, also? Otherwise why in the heck would they be on the "Learning at School" board? Surely not just to flame, right?
I can't speak for anyone else but I do have two children in public school simply due to the fact that after three years of legal hassles and $10,000 in legal fees I was told if I took them out, I would lose custody to my ex.

And for the record, I could list 50 things that happen to my daughters every week in public school that prompt me to say that is why I homeschool the boys. I guess that wouldn't be seen as being constructive though.

Stephany
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#135 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 02:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mocha09
That, and I respect the hell out of you
That means a lot to me. I think you are one of the most intelligent women I have ever met....

Stephany
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#136 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 02:38 AM
 
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I apologise, but I'm stuck on the "privilege" aspect of this discussion.
Privilege does not equal money. Many times I saw people responding to the idea the homeschooling is a privilege with comments such as "My husband works two jobs and we are completely broke so that I can stay home and school the kids" [totally paraphrasing here]. I will list the privileges that are included in this statement in order to demonstarte my point.
- you have a partner backing you up
- you are emotionally stable enough to manage a huge goal
- you have a place to live
- you have a homeschooling group or other such community support
- you have choices that many many people do not have
- you can read and write in english
- you have access to a computer
- you have a relatively stable, crisis-free life
- there are jobs where you live
I could go on. These are all privileges...privileges can be gained, earned, inborn, and very easily taken away. I know this because I can tell you right now that I don't have the privileges in my life necessary to homeschool my children. I do have many others, though, and I'm not ashamed but aware. It is this awareness that is the foundation of my empathy.
I just introduced myself on the schooling forum tonight as a matter of fact, and stumbled onto this issue. I want to ask right now, that when and if I ever need to share my insecurities, fears, problems, and confusion about the school system my kids are beginning this September, can *nobody* answer "that is why I homeschool" to any of my threads? Thanks in advance.
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#137 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 10:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
I apologise, but I'm stuck on the "privilege" aspect of this discussion.
Privilege does not equal money. Many times I saw people responding to the idea the homeschooling is a privilege with comments such as "My husband works two jobs and we are completely broke so that I can stay home and school the kids" [totally paraphrasing here]. I will list the privileges that are included in this statement in order to demonstarte my point.
- you have a partner backing you up
- you are emotionally stable enough to manage a huge goal
- you have a place to live
- you have a homeschooling group or other such community support
- you have choices that many many people do not have
- you can read and write in english
- you have access to a computer
- you have a relatively stable, crisis-free life
- there are jobs where you live
I could go on. These are all privileges...privileges can be gained, earned, inborn, and very easily taken away. I know this because I can tell you right now that I don't have the privileges in my life necessary to homeschool my children. I do have many others, though, and I'm not ashamed but aware. It is this awareness that is the foundation of my empathy.
Mamajama,

With all due respect I think what people are trying to tell you is that many of us do homeschool without some of the things on your list, and with other issues or crosses to bare. And I maintain that simply because someone doesn't have the things on your list, it still does not make them privileges by definition.
I'm sorry you don't feel you have the resources around you to homeschool your children and I hope that if it is truly what you want for family that you find a way to do it.
Karen

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Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. ~ Buddha

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#138 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 11:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Karenwith4
Mamajama,

With all due respect I think what people are trying to tell you is that many of us do homeschool without some of the things on your list, and with other issues or crosses to bare. And I maintain that simply because someone doesn't have the things on your list, it still does not make them privileges by definition.
I'm sorry you don't feel you have the resources around you to homeschool your children and I hope that if it is truly what you want for family that you find a way to do it.
Karen
Not exactly my point, but thank you all the same.
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#139 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 01:01 PM
 
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This is the THIRD time I've written out this post! MDC keeps crashing every time I hit send. This time I'm being smart and writing it in word and then will copy and paste.

Quote:
I will list the privileges that are included in this statement in order to demonstarte my point.
- you have a partner backing you up
- you are emotionally stable enough to manage a huge goal
- you have a place to live
- you have a homeschooling group or other such community support
- you have choices that many many people do not have
- you can read and write in english
- you have access to a computer
- you have a relatively stable, crisis-free life
- there are jobs where you live
I could go on. These are all privileges...privileges can be gained, earned, inborn, and very easily taken away.

But these aren't privileges. Not if you go by the dictionary definition of the word. Privileges are things that are given to you *because* you are in a special group of some sort.

Take the partner for example. Like Dar said, there are privileges that come with being a married woman (that is the special group). However, my husband himself is not a privilege. He was not given to me and he cannot be taken away (unless you count death or if one of US decides to split - but it's not as if anyone can revoke him). Being married to him does afford me some privileges (like being on his insurance plan for example) but he himself is not a privilege.

Having computer access is another. This is, IMO, a luxury, but it's not a privilege. If I were in some special group and was given a computer just for being a member, that would be a privilege.

I understand what people are trying to say and I do agree that some of us have it easier, but I don't think privilege is the right word here. At least not the way it's being used.

Also, I understand why someone might not want to homeschool in the face of great adversity. I don't know if I would have it in me to homeschool if I were single, or living in poverty. I think those who do totally rock though

I also think that this discussion has been mostly about people who think homeschooling is best but feel they can't do it. I think it bears mentioning that there are plenty of people out there (most?) who *don't* think that homeschooling is best. Not everyone "blindly" puts their child in school and many, many parents know that homeschooling is an option, think about it and feel it's the best idea to go with school. Obviously I haven't come to that conclusion with my family but I can respect the decision.



Quote:
. I want to ask right now, that when and if I ever need to share my insecurities, fears, problems, and confusion about the school system my kids are beginning this September, can *nobody* answer "that is why I homeschool" to any of my threads? Thanks in advance.
Unfortunately, we can't guarantee that. Homeschoolers are individuals and as such we have different opinions on what is kind and helpful and what is rude and inappropriate. However, *this* homeschooler won't do that, ok?
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#140 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 01:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mom2radata

At least one person on this thread said that you have to be a stay-at-home parent in order to be able to homeschool. That is just not the case. I have seen many creative people solve this problem.
Just chiming in to say that I said that, and I still think it is broadly true. In order to homeschool, there has to be *someone* to be with the kids. That someone may be a parent who is working from hom, or aanother familymember, or perhaps a parent who works nights....but somebody has got to be with the kid(s).

And, If your family cannot afford to have a parent who isn't working, then I uderstand it's possible still to homeschool, but the obstacles that such families have to overcome are much higher, and as a result, it is a much bigger deal for such families to homeschool.
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#141 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 01:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by didelphus
I'd hope that most of the folks who made the "that's why I homeschool" comments might have some kids in school, also? Otherwise why in the heck would they be on the "Learning at School" board? Surely not just to flame, right?
I don't think that saying "that's why I homeschool" equals a flame.

I certainly can understand how many posters with children in public school can feel those comments are unnecessary and unhelpful. But, I don't think the intent was to flame or cause strife.

The way that I personally interpreted the comment was "I also encountered those issues or issues like those, and they bothered me so much I decided not to participate in the public school system and am homeschooling".

I can understand why that might not be the support or info someone's looking for, but I don't think it is really that bad of a comment to make (I don't think the intentions are bad). That's JMHO tho.
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#142 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 01:53 PM
 
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I agree with Kristimetz. I wouldn't have taken it as a flame, just as an alternative solution. The problems with public schools IS why I now homeschool one of my children. I think a couple of years ago, I saw a similar thread with a "that's why I homeschool" type theme. It actually put the idea of homeschooling in my head and I started doing research on it. After many, many months, and much research, I decided it would be the perfect thing for dd. And it has been.

I also agree that homeschooling is not a privelege or a luxury. It's just another choice. And with choice comes sacrifice. You can argue the meaning of the words all you want, but it will always lead to a full circle. There are ups and downs to all methods of schooling. Not everyone in this world can homeschool and not everyone in this world can send their children to school. Although, in America, it is easier to pick which one you prefer regardless of your situation. If you really really want something, there is always a way.

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#143 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 02:18 PM
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Wow. You all really don't "get it".
Show me where homeschooling resources are offered to every parent.
You see ads everywhere for public and private school, but no where is homeschooling even given as a viable choice.
Homeschooling communities are very tight lipped and not very helpful. The self-righteous attitude is what disuades me from even asking anything on these boards.
As for the Native American links that were given by a pp, they are all based on christian and/or American standards of education.

The whole idea of "well, you have choices and you are just not doing enough to make the right choices." is the same as the whole idea of "rising up out of poverty".

Homeschoolers will always have a certain privelage above and beyond the average American citizen.

No one was labeling anyone a rich suburban wife, or talking about other countries. I am talking about the United States of America. Yes, even in the United States of America, food is a privelage. There are millions of people starving in the U.S. right now.

Food, water, and shelter are not a "right" for every person in America.
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#144 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 02:27 PM
 
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MamaintheBoonies, I'm really about your posts. I really don't get it, obviously. You seem to feel that being Native American has a big impact on your ability to homeschool or not, yet you have not explained why that is short of listing things that you claim you can't teach your kids. I really don't understand. I'm not NA, I have never been to a resrevation, I must be missing something. Please, explain it to me more concretely.

Namaste!
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#145 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 02:28 PM
 
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This is a really interesting thread, and bear with me because I haven't had a chance to read all of the replies.

MamaintheBoonies, I understand what you're saying.

Privilege is really a relative matter. In my family's situation, we are able to make it work so that one parent (my husband) can stay home with my daughter instead of placing her in daycare. If someone told me that I was privileged to be able to do that, well, I'd say Yes, I am. I wouldn't get all bent out of shape about it. I also don't think commenting on privilege is necessarily to negate the (relative) sacrifices we make to be able to do this.
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#146 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 03:00 PM
 
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<<<Show me where homeschooling resources are offered to every parent.
You see ads everywhere for public and private school, but no where is homeschooling even given as a viable choice.>>>>

Homeschooling resources aren't "offered" because it's still not a totally mainstream, fully accepted way to school your child - although legal in all states. I just happened upon it by chance and through word of mouth. And what kind of resources do you mean? Everything is available to anyone who seeks it.

<<<<Homeschooling communities are very tight lipped and not very helpful. The self-righteous attitude is what disuades me from even asking anything on these boards.>>>>

You have got to be kidding. H/s parents are far from tight-lipped - to those who are sincerely curious about this option. All the h/s parents I know have chosen this option for their children because they think it's best. Being proud of your choices and suggesting it as an option to someone else doesn't make one self-righteous. On a homeschooling board, you are going to find people who love homeschooling and will help others in any way possible to get them started.

<<<<As for the Native American links that were given by a pp, they are all based on christian and/or American standards of education.>>>>

At least someone was truly trying to help you out. Obviously no one here has suggestions for what you actually want. You know, you can research and create your own curriculum for your child. If your state requires tests and paperwork (as mine does) then you can also find a way to fit in basic studies as well.

<<<<The whole idea of "well, you have choices and you are just not doing enough to make the right choices." is the same as the whole idea of "rising up out of poverty".>>>>

You seem to take everything personally and are really defensive. I understand you want what you want and feel you can't have it. We all feel that way about things. DO something about it then. Be the lone voice. Make a stand.

And can you please tell me what is your idea of the privelege with homeschooling? Just elaborate and be specific. Is it the money? The spouse? The area? What? I gave up a lot to homeschool. I sacrificed my own needs to foster my child's. It wasn't easy. I can't afford much of what I'd like. My state (NY) is one of the toughest states to homeschool in. We don't follow someone else's idea of curriculum. I created my own - through unschooling - based on my child's interests. My family aren't all supportive. My neighborhood is not homeschool- friendly. I worry every about dd's well-being. I am looked down upon by many. WHAT PRIVILEGE? But I know this is best for dd and that's what I focus on. I have 2 other kids in public school. I see all sides of this. The bottom line is that if you really want to homeschool, you can - despite what you think is holding you back. No one is saying that homeschooling is the best thing in the world - only the best for THEM. There are so many homeschooling support groups because most of us need help, support, and advice. There are probably many just like you who have made it work. And if you want to liken it to "rising up out of poverty" then go ahead. I did it. It was hard and after graduating college with $26,000 in loans I got a job, got married and took 10 years to pay it off. In the 70s we were on welfare, food stamps, church clothes, and lived with grandparents. I guess that's why I don't understand the "woe is me" attitude. Can you tell me again, what do these "privileged" people have that you don't?

Angela

 

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#147 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 03:06 PM
 
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I want to reiterate, I'm jumping in the discussion because it originally started out in the learning at school forum. So PLEASE keep this mind! I don't mind debate, I'm trying to be respectful and polite, and it's just a really interesting topic.

There were some questions that people posed to me pages ago, and I thought I might answer 'em.

Someone wanted to know how the concept of public schooling was democratic. It's a Jeffersonian ideal. Thomas Jefferson was a big champion of public schools, as a means to give everyone* (see asterik below) without the econonic means otherwise, a chance at an education. Those with the means were already able to educate their kids. With education comes liberty. Here's a quote that I like: Worth and genius would thus have been sought out from every condition of life, and completely prepared by education for defeating the competition of wealth and birth for public trusts." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1813. ME 13:399.

I think it's still a worthy goal within the public sector to be able to provide education to all. No matter how many of us here end up choosing something different for our kids, I think there will still always be kids who will need public school. For that reason, I feel it's important for us (being my family, anyway) to be part of that process. For those of you who aren't going to school and are still active in that process, I wholeheartedly commend you. I know that for me, realistically, I can't see being that involved with the system unless we're actually working in it. I'd also imagine everyone here is hoping to raise their children to be well-adjusted, happy-healthy members of society, regardless of what means we choose to get there. I just feel a certain responsiblity to try and build on something, to give something back, for the common good above and beyond that. As I said previously, though, L's well-being is my central concern - so I wouldn't keep doing something that I felt was not beneficial for her.

As for the whole "socialization" debate, you certainly won't get that argument from me that kids should go to school so that they can go through bullying, peer pressure, etc. I am hoping that with all of the attention placed on bullying, at least, that schools will be more pro-active in this regard. I want L to always feel like she can come to me and talk to me, without fear of me downplaying or belittling her concerns. I do think that, overall, school is just a microcosm of our society and our society's values. If you're raising your kid to be mean, or to value consumerism and conformity, or to denigrate intellect, well, that will show up at school, and it'll show up outside of school.

*That wouldn't have originally included African Americans or Native Americans. One of the many contradictions and hypocrisies of one of our "founding fathers."
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#148 of 148 Old 08-23-2005, 07:46 PM
 
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Shannon, thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I appreciate your opinions and perspective. I do agree that the semnatics of the word privilege seems a little skewed. The english language can be so ambiguous at times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShannonCC



But these aren't privileges. Not if you go by the dictionary definition of the word. Privileges are things that are given to you *because* you are in a special group of some sort.

Take the partner for example. Like Dar said, there are privileges that come with being a married woman (that is the special group). However, my husband himself is not a privilege. He was not given to me and he cannot be taken away (unless you count death or if one of US decides to split - but it's not as if anyone can revoke him). Being married to him does afford me some privileges (like being on his insurance plan for example) but he himself is not a privilege.
But you are in a privileged position to be able to marry in the first place (see gay marriage rights.) . You are privileged in that you are socialized in a way that you can form a relationship with somebody who supports your major life decisions.

Quote:
Having computer access is another. This is, IMO, a luxury, but it's not a privilege. If I were in some special group and was given a computer just for being a member, that would be a privilege.
Well some may see it that that is the case. You are in a special group that 1) can afford a computer 2) is literate and can learn to use a computer 3) lives in a place where computers are available.





Quote:
Unfortunately, we can't guarantee that. Homeschoolers are individuals and as such we have different opinions on what is kind and helpful and what is rude and inappropriate. However, *this* homeschooler won't do that, ok?
Gotcha, thank you.
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