another socialization question - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 11 Old 01-22-2003, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
CerridwenLorelei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: BIG SCARY TEXAS/World of Warcrack
Posts: 5,826
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A net friend is thinking about hsing. She always was told the same thing I was in school. She asked me what has changed so I am going to put it out there and see what responses we get

We were both talkers in school and had teachers repeatedly tell us "you are here to LEARN **NOT** socialize young lady"
and of course as hsers we get the socialization questions. So what or when did things change and school become socialization and not education
CerridwenLorelei is offline  
#2 of 11 Old 01-22-2003, 10:07 PM
 
khrisday's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: High Desert of California
Posts: 3,920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think that first you have to define your terms.

Socialize: to place under group ownership or control

This is what I believe our public schools do- if you read the history of the public school system, it was erected to socialize the incoming foreign masses and to produce factory workers. This is what the school system does, and it's not something I want done to my children.

Socialize: to make fit for companionship for others

This is what I intend to do with my children, by honoring and respecting them, by teaching them to do the same to others. This is *not* what the public school system does for our children.

What your friend is asking you is the answer to her own question- if "socialization" is the why NOT to homeschool, and school is *not* a place to socialize, why would you NOT homeschool?
khrisday is offline  
#3 of 11 Old 01-24-2003, 10:12 PM
 
rsps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This comes from sandiegohomeeducations FAQ

Four types of local OPPORTUNITIES TO SOCIALIZE come to
mind. ("Socialization" and "opportunities to socialize" are not the
same thing, by the way. "Socialization" is the process by which a
culture instills its values in its members. Many of us are
homeschooling because we don't care for the type of values instilled
in the peer-dominated school setting.) Local opportunities to
socialize include:

A: PARK DAYS

B: CLUBS, CLASSES, FIELD TRIPS

C: TEEN GROUPS

D. COMMUNITY YOUTH GROUPS

and I 'd add Family and neighborhood friends
rsps is offline  
#4 of 11 Old 01-25-2003, 02:32 AM
 
member234098's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 3,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I really believe that the socialization that children receive in any school is bad. All social encounters are timed and are postponed until you can go out to the lunchroom or playground. Then sometimes you are surrounded by people you do not know or like or want to be alone. Children often pick on each other out of frustration or fight over silly things on the playground. One rarely sees behaviour this intense outside of school. Everything is controlled by bells and supervisors and rules.

The rules have changed over the years.

Nowadays the rules also relate to the liability and litigation.
member234098 is offline  
#5 of 11 Old 01-25-2003, 06:43 PM
 
LizD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: with all the madmen
Posts: 2,302
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I take issue with *any* school's socialization being negative. Not everyone has a good experience at Waldorf schools, but the teachers are trained to nurture the social as the most important work the young children are doing. This is why the children work together at academic work in the grades and why there is no academic work in kindergarten, only real life tasks and opportunity to play, eat, sing, paint, cook, build, nap together. The teacher is much more involved with the children and really does monitor and assist with any problems; the children feel safe bringing social problems to the teacher, because they will get help.

My own public school experience was a social nightmare, and my daughter's, after leaving Waldorf to move, was not much better. But there is *great* value in children being together and working together, and I think that's the concern behind the question. Believe me, the question steams me up too because it seems the only thing anyone can ever ask about homeschooling. But having worked in Waldorf schools and having a child in one, I know there is healthy socialization that's supposed to take place in school that can't be replicated with just the family at home,or even park days and weekly classes. (There are advantages and disadvantages to both, of course. ) This is the socialization that's meant when alarmed friends and family ask about homeschooling- it's just a shame they don't realize that's *not* what most schools are providing at all, and you're more likely to provide it at home.
LizD is offline  
#6 of 11 Old 01-25-2003, 07:13 PM
 
Linda in Arizona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think that the primary role of American schools is to socialize kids. Although this sounds radical, I think that EVERYBODY knows it and likes it that way. It explains so much -- why people always ask me about my kids socialization but never about learning, and why the US lags behind most of the developed world in education.

Most of the time that kids are in school they are expected to sit still and be quite (just like when we where kids) but still many people consider this to be a wonderful "socialization" experience. I do want my kids to learn to be part of a group, listen to a teacher, follow directions etc. but 1 hour a week at the parks and rec class of their choice just seems like a heck of a lot more reasonable way to do this that locking them up in school all week. And my kids have far more time to just muck about when their friends than they would have in school.

I spent many recesses standing a line as a punishment for talking during class!!!
Linda in Arizona is offline  
#7 of 11 Old 01-25-2003, 07:41 PM
 
cathe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Central Coast, California
Posts: 5,735
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I plan to homeschool my girls and have been reading lots of stuff. The socialization issue was one of my main questions. The more I read, the more I am convinced that the so-called socialization found in schools is not beneficial for children. Children stuck together in an institution forced to "solicialize" has fostered peer pressure, ganging up on kids that don't fit in or are different, etc. Traditional school does not prepare our child for the real world. I am now convinced that my children will be better "socialized" by being homeschooled as they will interact with children of all ages at homeschool park days and outings, as well as with adults.

Cathe Olson, author The Vegetarian Mother's Cookbook, Simply Natural Baby Food, and LIck It! Creamy Dreamy Vegan Ice Creams Your Mouth Will Love.  
cathe is offline  
#8 of 11 Old 01-25-2003, 08:19 PM
 
michelle1k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: a scatterling of Africa...
Posts: 604
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You wrote:

"But having worked in Waldorf schools and having a child in one, I know there is healthy socialization that's supposed to take place in school that can't be replicated with just the family at home,or even park days and weekly classes."

I go backwards and forwards between keeping my son in a Waldorf school (he's currently in kindy and they're working on starting up a grades program this fall) and h/schooling. I really think that my son *needed* to be socialized through this school. He's a shy, introverted little guy and our Waldorf school's nursery and kindy helped him push his boundaries in a safe, nurturing space. We had tried all sorts of playgroups before, but it seemed that he needed another authority figure and the freedom away from home to really come out of his shell. He's so much happier and even plays more imaginatively (despite our "before school days" of no TV, all natural open-ended wooden toys, tons of dress-up stuff and unstructured days).

I'd love to hear your view on how the socialization works out in the early Waldorf grades (specifically since they will be starting academic work and their days aren't filled with free play) as opposed to how it might work out for a Waldorf inspired homeschooling family w/ a Waldorf-y support network. For example, I know they often work on class plays together - and I really mourned this "loss" when I decided that we would h/ school, until I realized that we could do this w/ a homeschooling group also.

Love to hear what another Waldorf-mama thinks!

Warmly,
Michelle - mom to ds (4) and dd (7 months)
michelle1k is offline  
#9 of 11 Old 01-25-2003, 08:20 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Read John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of American Education . John Taylor Gatto taught in New York State for thirty years, was awarded Teacher of the Year, and then left and has been an outspoken voice against conventional American public schools ever since.

I am just a mother and wife and teacher.

John Taylor Gatto has been in the trenches, and done it all. His voice is worth hearing.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#10 of 11 Old 01-26-2003, 01:40 AM
 
LizD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: with all the madmen
Posts: 2,302
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
michelle wrote:
"I'd love to hear your view on how the socialization works out in the early Waldorf grades (specifically since they will be starting academic work and their days aren't filled with free play) as opposed to how it might work out for a Waldorf inspired homeschooling family w/ a Waldorf-y support network. "

Well, in my experience it is really different from other schools. The teachers eat and take recess with the children, and play games with them as well as let them play on their own. I probably can't do it justice trying to list things here...but the social well-being of the class is a concern of the teacher all the way through eighth grade. There's a community there, and it is nice for the children to have the group they belong to and the routine of school. As you know there are a great many hands-on activities for math, reading, etc - all these are done together. Singing, circle- which doesn't stop after the early grades but continues in age-appropriate forms, and learning together are great advantages. The class is held by the teacher and moves together. They are by no means trapped in their seats all day forbidden to speak to one another. Of course there are times for quiet and independent work, and I was able to give those children who were reading ahead of others work to do on their own, and the same when I had some children able to multiply three columns while others struggled with place value. When it is handled well the children benefit even from doing work they may have covered before in different ways.

In the early grades there is still plenty of time for free play. The intoduction to academics is *so*very gentle and gradual, it is a very beautiful thing. I am so thankful my daughter had Waldorf kindergarten and first grade.

Our mornings had free time in the classroom, then main lesson, then midmorning snack and recess, two specialty classes, lunch and recess, and in first grade, the afternoon was usually very open; lots of time outside, and inside time too with coloring and playing with pattern blocks, etc or hearing stories unrelated to the curriculum. The children went out every day at least twice even in the higher grades unless the weather was truly inclement. Rain and snow are not reasons to stay in at a Waldorf school! Most Waldorf teachers I have known have been very flexible as far as time (other than Main Lesson). The local public schools don't even make sure the children go out *once* a day in nice weather!

If you have a school you are happy with and some of your child's kindergarten companions will be going on to first grade, I would consider it very carefully. I was just reviewing You Are Your Child's First Teacher, and Rahima Baldwin points out that only Waldorf training really makes it a Waldorf program. I was not a fully certified teacher so I can honestly say she is right about this. Of course if homeschooling is right for you there is no reason a Waldorf school would be superior to that. If you really like the method, though, I would suggest you take some of the summer courses available through Sunbridge College, Rudolf Steiner College, or the Rudolf Steiner Institute. Even a week-long course is well worth it - I can't recommend it highly enough, and it has held me and helped me far beyond teaching the grade I took a workshop in. Every choice includes compromises. If there is a strong network of homeschoolers in your Waldorf community you may be able to have the best of both worlds.

However, I don't want to hog a socialization thread with Waldorf-or-not, so perhaps this should take on a new thread. I only wanted to point out that I have seen some wonderfully positive socialization in school.
LizD is offline  
#11 of 11 Old 01-26-2003, 02:13 AM
 
michelle1k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: a scatterling of Africa...
Posts: 604
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just in closing....

I had no idea there was quite so much unstructured, free and flexible time. Ack - it is a hard, hard decision I wish I didn't have to make!

But there are some other reasons why we would choose h/ schooling over a Waldorf school, which I won't go into here. I am fortunate to have my son's former nursery teacher now h/schooling her two boys w/ a Waldorf curriculum ("Live-Education!") and she has an extensive support system set up (incl. foreign language classes and Eurythmy). Sunbridge College is just 45 mins from my home, so I also forsee taking summer courses this year, or the next.

Warmly,
Michelle - who will now stop hogging the socialization thread!
michelle1k is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off