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#31 of 57 Old 03-14-2006, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Joan
Whoa. I don't think ANYONE here suggested that hurting children is a perfectly valid alternative lifestyle choice! Most expressed outrage over the way your child was treated.

Yes, several us of commented about kids learning that others live differently. If you don't want to expose your kids to that, that's your choice, but noting that others live differently and condoning it, are two different things. I know, personally, my point was that my kids have seen that others live differently, and we discuss it, but that fact does not mean I think it's okay to hurt kids.
Okay, I understand that noting that people live differently isn't the same as condoning, I just think that 6 and almost-3 is a little young to grasp that distinction.

I didn't mean that anyone here called it a valid alternative choice; I was talking about the "school mentality" which *does* tend to present everything as equally valid and *does* in my opinion confuse children still learning their own values. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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#32 of 57 Old 03-14-2006, 09:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna
I forgot to mention, she was being punished for "talking back." Honestly this bothers me almost as much as the punishment itself--I attribute a lot of problems in society to people being taught not to "talk back."

While I do not agree with the punishment, I also believe that children should be taught to be respectful and not smart off to people. Of course, I do not know what the other parent considered "talking back", either.

I once had a child tell me they did not "have to listen to me" and to "F-off". I am sure your child did not say anything close to that.
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#33 of 57 Old 03-14-2006, 11:49 AM
 
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I just came across this thread, and I'm so relieved to hear that your children won't be exposed to that anymore.

I have heard of 'stress standing' before, but only in press coverage about Guantanamo, Abu Ghiraib and the like. Seriously. Didn't know any schools anywhere in North America did that.

It sounds like, although your kids didn't come to you and say they didn't want to go back as soon as this happened, they were waiting for cues from you as to what it was 'ok' to express about the group, if you see what I mean.

The Y a couple of times a week sounds fine for now, especially when they're so young. More important that they enjoy the activity than anything - I know my child enjoys a variety of activities including ones with schooled kids, and we've got to know lots of other great families this way, including ones with kids in school. But none that are abusive, which would be a complete deal-breaker for me.
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#34 of 57 Old 03-14-2006, 12:04 PM
 
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Agreed- I know some parents who feel ok doing some things disciplinary wise with their kids, that I DON"T want to see. It's very uncomfortable- so I don't spend time with them. It sounds like thses people are the exact opposite of what you want, so ditch them!
What I meant before when I said you'll all be exposed to various types of people was this- in a group like i have, we all have major differences in how we parent. But not one of us feels the need to judge another, or to insinuate that b/c we've chosen a certain way, that others need to comply with us. If I felt anyone of these folks represented harm to my kids, I'd avoid them.That's comfort in a way,b/c if you truly do have anxiety issues, you don't want to make 'differences" the reason your kids might pick up on your anxieties ,and have a lack of sociability.
You said your dh has concerns,and that's good, you have his input to keep balanced. I'm not saying that this one issue should be overlooked, b/c it shouldn't. But do try to find other groups or families for you guys to socialize with. it is very important. I know a few moms who have social anxieties, and some do well, in spite of their own fears, give their kids the opportunities to spend time with others, whereas a couple of them transfer their anxieties onto their own kids, and these kids(I know them personally) are as paralyzed by fear as their mothers. Unable to have normal child relationships. they have no friends, b/c thay're too anxious!
I'm not in any way putting you down, I know how hard it is to find a good fit with families sometimes, but keep looking, the Y may have other families attending with whom you'll all feel comfortable-
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#35 of 57 Old 03-14-2006, 12:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna
.
What do y'all think? Is a "group" experience more important than consistant values?

-Brigianna
I'm sorry- after my long winded answer, I'll answer your 1 question... No, a group experience is not more important than consistent values.... that's how people justify schools....
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#36 of 57 Old 03-14-2006, 06:14 PM
 
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Is a "group" experience more important than consistant values?
Nope. And I would not drop them off at a group where people would force them to do that.

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#37 of 57 Old 03-15-2006, 04:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by TinkerBelle
While I do not agree with the punishment, I also believe that children should be taught to be respectful and not smart off to people. Of course, I do not know what the other parent considered "talking back", either.

I once had a child tell me they did not "have to listen to me" and to "F-off". I am sure your child did not say anything close to that.
I absolutely agree that children (and adults) should be polite and respectful to other people, but that doesn't mean unquestioning obedience. I strongly encourage my kids to "talk back" to me and challenge my authority as much as they want. And often they're right! But we use logical arguments, not "F off."

I love my little anti-authoritarians, especially when I'm the power they're speaking truth to!
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#38 of 57 Old 03-15-2006, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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#39 of 57 Old 03-15-2006, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by hsmamato2
Agreed- I know some parents who feel ok doing some things disciplinary wise with their kids, that I DON"T want to see. It's very uncomfortable- so I don't spend time with them. It sounds like thses people are the exact opposite of what you want, so ditch them!
What I meant before when I said you'll all be exposed to various types of people was this- in a group like i have, we all have major differences in how we parent. But not one of us feels the need to judge another, or to insinuate that b/c we've chosen a certain way, that others need to comply with us. If I felt anyone of these folks represented harm to my kids, I'd avoid them.That's comfort in a way,b/c if you truly do have anxiety issues, you don't want to make 'differences" the reason your kids might pick up on your anxieties ,and have a lack of sociability.
You said your dh has concerns,and that's good, you have his input to keep balanced. I'm not saying that this one issue should be overlooked, b/c it shouldn't. But do try to find other groups or families for you guys to socialize with. it is very important. I know a few moms who have social anxieties, and some do well, in spite of their own fears, give their kids the opportunities to spend time with others, whereas a couple of them transfer their anxieties onto their own kids, and these kids(I know them personally) are as paralyzed by fear as their mothers. Unable to have normal child relationships. they have no friends, b/c thay're too anxious!
I'm not in any way putting you down, I know how hard it is to find a good fit with families sometimes, but keep looking, the Y may have other families attending with whom you'll all feel comfortable-
Thanks for your concern; I appreciate it. I know that socialization is important, although I think its importance is greatly exaggerated, especially for very young kids (since when do they need the social graces at 2?---not directed at you but at the mainstreamers).

I don't have social anxiety, I just don't like to go out! Dealing with people seems more hassle than it's worth. My husband's concern was that I was projecting my own experience on to the issue of stress standing, which I wasn't. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

But I will make sure the kidlets get out once in a while. I wonder if school kids might be *more* likely to develop social anxiety than hs kids from being over-socialized at too early an age?
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#40 of 57 Old 03-15-2006, 11:47 AM
 
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If I am there(usally am) I expect to be told when my kids act inappropriately,and then I will handle it.If I weren't there I think having a child sit down somewhere to cool/calm down,and then *talk to them* would be ok.No way would I think stress standing(never heard of it) was ok.Not from me,and definitely not from another adult. Either I would have stopped the punishiment right away,or later I would have told my dc that it was not something I think the adult had the right to do.

I would leave the group,and let them know why.Then create/find another that I feel more comfortable with.Hugs for your kids,and best wishes whatever you decide. You will find places that are acceptable.Don't give up your values


Would your dh feel it was ok if his boss make him do stress standing in the corner for a while infront of his peers? I doubt it.Not only is it uncomfortable- it humiliates! I am sure he will agree.
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#41 of 57 Old 03-15-2006, 12:16 PM
 
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Glad to read you left the group.Wow,15 minutes! I figured like 1 or 2 minutes.With back talk I would have just told the child it was not approriate to talk that way to me,and that there were better ways to express disagreement which their mom and dad will talk to them about later.I would let them know a time out would be instituted next time,and if that behavior continued then they would have to leave till they could get along better.Then just let the parent know what was going on.Not a good group at all.We do the library,park,and the occasional hs meetings otherwsie were are home with each other 24/7, and we like it.
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#42 of 57 Old 03-15-2006, 12:29 PM
 
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That it is not the place of parents to discipline other peoples' children.

I disagree. If a child is left with a caregiver, the caregiver needs to be able to dscipline the child. Though, this should be discussed ahead of time and agreed to by the parent. For example, you may want them to just have her sit at a table while they call you so that you can come discipline her yourself or take her home. They should not be usuing forms of discipline that you object to, but they do need to be able to do something in a group care situation. This is why I suggested having her sit out while you are called to come and get her. Care in a large group is way different than care of children by a parent. I have a small family childcare and this is how I've dealt with families that want to discipline their own children. I can't let the child continue with the behavior, so I call their parents to come and get them and have the child sit on the couch to wait for them.

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#43 of 57 Old 03-15-2006, 03:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna
Secondly, yes I did bring up my objections at the time. The woman who punished L. is the semi-unofficial leader of the group. I complained to her (actually I basically flew into a rage--not a good example I know)
This is probably not a very popular opinion, but I actually find your reaction perfectly appropriate. It was an exceptionally outrageous incident, and you responded in a way that reflected that. I can't even read this thread without a visceral reaction - I have to take deep breaths - and I can't even imagine how I would have reacted if anything like that had ever happened to my child! So I was actually relieved to hear you'd so strongly and openly expressed your reaction there. - Lillian
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#44 of 57 Old 03-15-2006, 09:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna
I don't have social anxiety, I just don't like to go out! Dealing with people seems more hassle than it's worth.
I have days like that too!

. I wonder if school kids might be *more* likely to develop social anxiety than hs kids from being over-socialized at too early an age?
Yes- I think forcing too much on a child who deosn't want it produces all sorts of anxious behaviors... I like that term...oversocialized! That';s gotta be at least as dangerous(sounding) as unsocialized!
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#45 of 57 Old 03-16-2006, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mattemma04
With back talk I would have just told the child it was not approriate to talk that way to me,and that there were better ways to express disagreement which their mom and dad will talk to them about later.I would let them know a time out would be instituted next time,and if that behavior continued then they would have to leave till they could get along better.Then just let the parent know what was going on.
I am a little confused by what you mean that there are better ways to express disagreement than "back talk." As I understand it, the *definition* of "back talk" is expressing disagreement with the authority figure. My daughter was not being rude or hostile.

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I disagree. If a child is left with a caregiver, the caregiver needs to be able to dscipline the child. Though, this should be discussed ahead of time and agreed to by the parent. For example, you may want them to just have her sit at a table while they call you so that you can come discipline her yourself or take her home. They should not be usuing forms of discipline that you object to, but they do need to be able to do something in a group care situation. This is why I suggested having her sit out while you are called to come and get her. Care in a large group is way different than care of children by a parent. I have a small family childcare and this is how I've dealt with families that want to discipline their own children. I can't let the child continue with the behavior, so I call their parents to come and get them and have the child sit on the couch to wait for them.

-Heather
Well, discipline doesn't mean punishment. I have taken care of various children at various times ranging from infancy through pre-teens and I have never felt the need to punish a child or have the parents punish the child. Of course I would intervene in genuinely destructive behavior that needed to be stopped, but I believe there is nearly always a better alternative than punishment.
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#46 of 57 Old 03-16-2006, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Lillian J


This is probably not a very popular opinion, but I actually find your reaction perfectly appropriate. It was an exceptionally outrageous incident, and you responded in a way that reflected that. I can't even read this thread without a visceral reaction - I have to take deep breaths - and I can't even imagine how I would have reacted if anything like that had ever happened to my child! So I was actually relieved to hear you'd so strongly and openly expressed your reaction there. - Lillian
Treatment of children is a passionate issue for me, but I think I just reinforced her idea that I am a head case! But I doubt she was open to changing her mind, anyway. So it worked out

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Yes- I think forcing too much on a child who deosn't want it produces all sorts of anxious behaviors... I like that term...oversocialized! That';s gotta be at least as dangerous(sounding) as unsocialized!
Sure, look at the number of people out there who have all of these problems, whether it's social anxiety or just no social skills, in a society where something like 98% of people are schooled! When I see some guy shoving in line, yelling at people, driving aggressively, etc., I certainly don't think "oh, he must have been homeschooled"
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#47 of 57 Old 03-16-2006, 10:24 AM
 
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[QUOTE=Brigianna]
So I called the group leader (Miss K.) and told her that we would not be coming back. She suggested again that I was spoiling my kids and also insinuated that I was un-Christian and mentally unstable. I don't think I'll miss group.

------------------

I never heard of stress standing either. It makes me really sad to think that others treat people this way. My 7 year old is constantly speaking her thoughts to everyone and I can see for sure that Miss K would have tried to discipline her in this way. Dd would have no clue why this was happening. Anyway, I'm really glad you decided NOT to go back to this group. If this mother is a co-leader, it speaks a lot for the group's atmosphere. Definitely, find a few like-minded families to hang out with. It makes a big difference!
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#48 of 57 Old 03-16-2006, 12:06 PM
 
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I'm glad you are leaving the group!!! Good choice! They are scary people. Not only would I not want my child treated this way or to see other kids treated this way, I also wouldn't want their main circle of friends to come from this group. Sad as it is to say, children who are treated is such an abusive, controlling, and cruel manner are not going to be developing the ability to empathize or respect differences.

There are so many other options. Our favorite homeschool activities are park days -- when homeschoolers just show up at the park at the same time and hang out together. My kids and I enjoy this much more than organized events. Also, don't rule out activities for schooled kids as social outlets for your homeschooled kids. We really like Girl Scouts, and we've had good luck with troops through public school. Classes through parks and rec are a nice way for kids to explore different interests and be around their peers.

I personally think that punishment is wrong. Just wrong. It is sometimes necessary for adults in charge to let children know when their behavoir is out of line, but it is seldom necessary to do more than simply TELL the child when they are out of line. Anything beyond gently telling the child how to behave should be left to the parents.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#49 of 57 Old 03-16-2006, 03:39 PM
 
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Well, discipline doesn't mean punishment.


I assume/hope we're all in agreement about that. I cringe when I see the word "discipline" so often used interchangeably with the word "punish." It's almost as if people think the use of that word makes it okay to punish, which it isn't. And sometimes it's as if the word discipline is even used as a euphamism for punishment. A big pet peeve of mine. - Lillian
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#50 of 57 Old 03-17-2006, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Lillian J




I assume/hope we're all in agreement about that. I cringe when I see the word "discipline" so often used interchangeably with the word "punish." It's almost as if people think the use of that word makes it okay to punish, which it isn't. And sometimes it's as if the word discipline is even used as a euphamism for punishment. A big pet peeve of mine. - Lillian
Right, discipline means teaching--antithetical to punishment I think. Sometimes it's a euphemism but a lot of people really don't know the difference! "you mean you don't discipline your kids at all?!" "no, I just discipline them without punishment or coercion" [long blank stare] "so how do you get them to do anything?!"

It's sad that people are so embedded in the authoritarian mindset they don't even see it as a mindset, just "reality."
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#51 of 57 Old 03-17-2006, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Brigianna
I am a little confused by what you mean that there are better ways to express disagreement than "back talk." As I understand it, the *definition* of "back talk" is expressing disagreement with the authority figure. My daughter was not being rude or hostile.
Backtalk: an impudent or insolent rejoinder (from dictionary.com).

Backtalk, by definition, is rude. Disagreeing isn't necessarily so.

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#52 of 57 Old 03-18-2006, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Backtalk: an impudent or insolent rejoinder (from dictionary.com).

Backtalk, by definition, is rude. Disagreeing isn't necessarily so.

Dar
I suppose it's a matter of perception--in the mainstream point of view, a child disagreeing with an adult *is* impudent and insolent; children are not supposed to have opinions.
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#53 of 57 Old 03-18-2006, 12:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dar
Backtalk: an impudent or insolent rejoinder (from dictionary.com).

Backtalk, by definition, is rude. Disagreeing isn't necessarily so.

Dar
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Originally Posted by Brigianna
I suppose it's a matter of perception--in the mainstream point of view, a child disagreeing with an adult *is* impudent and insolent; children are not supposed to have opinions.
But there are ways to disagree with someone where it is done in a respectful manner and sadly many children(and adults too) are not being taught how(and I am not saying that your children personally are not being taught-it's just a general observation). I think that is the point that Dar was trying to make.

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#54 of 57 Old 03-18-2006, 12:49 PM
 
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I'm glad you are leaving that group! I would have been livid! Using a torchure technique on someone else's child?! Wow.

This may be semantics, but I wanted to post something about this...

SocialIZATION is the process of teaching children the family's (and culture's) values regarding social interaction. This is best done by the parents. Other three year olds can NOT teach your child anything about social skills. Parents who are right there saying "Be gentle" or "No throwing sand in your friends' eyes" or "Tell your friend goodbye" are the ones teaching the skills.

SocialIZING is spending time with friends. This is what many people mean when they ask about "socialization" for homeschoolers. And it sounds like this is what your DH is concerned about - your kids spending time playing with friends. And I sincerely hope that you can find a circle of friends to spend time with who share more values in common with your family. But I also want to point out that, at this time, your children are not asking for this. You said that they don't ask to go to group activities. They may not have a need (as yet) for lots of socializing. Or maybe even never - some kids, some people (like you) just don't need as much of that as others. And some never do like group stuff, and prefer to meet just one or a few friends for a playdate (maybe at a park), instead of the group days.

I'd say listen to your children (more than your husband), and follow their lead.

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#55 of 57 Old 03-18-2006, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by ErikaDP
But there are ways to disagree with someone where it is done in a respectful manner and sadly many children(and adults too) are not being taught how(and I am not saying that your children personally are not being taught-it's just a general observation). I think that is the point that Dar was trying to make.

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I agree that it's important to disagree politely and respectfully. But my daughter *was* being polite, but she was punished anyway, because these people do not believe in disagreement *at all.* That was my only point. And I do believe that many of the cultural problems in our society are caused by people believing that they should not question authority.
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#56 of 57 Old 03-18-2006, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm glad you are leaving that group! I would have been livid! Using a torchure technique on someone else's child?! Wow.

This may be semantics, but I wanted to post something about this...

SocialIZATION is the process of teaching children the family's (and culture's) values regarding social interaction. This is best done by the parents. Other three year olds can NOT teach your child anything about social skills. Parents who are right there saying "Be gentle" or "No throwing sand in your friends' eyes" or "Tell your friend goodbye" are the ones teaching the skills.

SocialIZING is spending time with friends. This is what many people mean when they ask about "socialization" for homeschoolers. And it sounds like this is what your DH is concerned about - your kids spending time playing with friends. And I sincerely hope that you can find a circle of friends to spend time with who share more values in common with your family. But I also want to point out that, at this time, your children are not asking for this. You said that they don't ask to go to group activities. They may not have a need (as yet) for lots of socializing. Or maybe even never - some kids, some people (like you) just don't need as much of that as others. And some never do like group stuff, and prefer to meet just one or a few friends for a playdate (maybe at a park), instead of the group days.

I'd say listen to your children (more than your husband), and follow their lead.
You're right, I was using them interchangably and I shouln't.

This is one of the main problems I have in trying to live noncoercively--I *know* they get bored if they do nothing but stay home with me day in and day out. When I suggest going somewhere, even just to the grocery store or something, they get exited. Before this incident, they were very exited about going to hs group. It isn't fair to them to keep them inside just because I don't want to be around people. But they don't ask to go out. They hardly ask for anything. I'm hoping it will get better as they get older. I'm trying to follow their lead as much as I can, but I think I also have to follow what they're *not* saying, you know?

Also, I can't really ignore my husband--he mostly leaves children-related decisions to me, but he does feel strongly about this (he's out socializing with them now, actually). I just get frustrated with how little support there is for our lifestyle.
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#57 of 57 Old 03-18-2006, 03:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ErikaDP
But there are ways to disagree with someone where it is done in a respectful manner and sadly many children(and adults too) are not being taught how(and I am not saying that your children personally are not being taught-it's just a general observation). I think that is the point that Dar was trying to make.
I think it's important, though, to also differentiate between the official definition of backtalk and the other mother's definition. For too many adults, any form of disagreement from a child, no matter how respectfully it is done, is considered unacceptable and is automatically labeled "backtalk".

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