Ok, did someone here add this entry? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 of 57 Old 05-21-2007, 11:54 PM
 
mz_libbie22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,231
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post


There's a difference between teaching with the expectation of improving the other person or making them into something you think they need to be made into, and sharing because you want to create a connection (bond) to yourself and your culture or sharing simply because you have reason to believe that person will appreciate it. The intent is wholly different. It is just a different mindset.
OK, this makes alot of sense to me.

THANK YOU for your great response!
mz_libbie22 is offline  
#32 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 12:23 AM
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm sorry... did someone say "literary cannon"??

Be still my heart.

It is my fondest hope that one of my kids gives a dang.

Here's the deal-- people can be introduced to things...whether they are interested and go with it? Well, really... a totally different topic.

I keep reading historical lit to all my kids (schooled & unschooled)...and well, dang, on of my kids is actually going to start freshman year of uni majoring in history. Now...that's cool. But guess what? I have lost sleep over worrying about whether my interest made him interested...

A mother can't win for trying.

That said, my dc assures me the history interest comes from his own inner passion, and in particular, inspirational and gifted 8th & 11th grade history teachers, and a middle school Latin teacher.

So, you know, many are spreading the history love.
UUMom is offline  
#33 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 01:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
UnschoolnMa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Trying to release my cows..Join Me!
Posts: 15,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mz_libbie22 View Post
Sure, DS can spend all his time outside, without anyone telling him what is worth knowing and what isn't, and he would certainly learn alot about our small city, but the world?? I don't see how that's possible.
Unschoolers can learn about the world in many of the same ways other people do. Television, books, people, observations, music, poetry, art, food, travel (even to the grocery store)... all of those things teach us of the world.

Quote:
It seems like with unschooling, the quality of the education still is dependent upon the child's environment and the amount of effort put forth by the parents.
Many people woudn't consider the environment my children live (and therefore learn in) to be all that high quality or least of high "educational" quality. The effort put forth is their own.

Quote:
The child is still being taught, though certainly in a more subtle and child-friendly way than you see in a school. It seems like unschooling parents are denying their natural role as teacher by saying their kids are 100% in responsible for their own education. I feel like some credit is owed to the parent for all the time spent reading aloud, explaining things and answering questions, transporting kids to museums--that's teaching!
Sure. In our family we all teach and we all learn. My kids teach me too.

Quote:
It seems unschoolers don't see any information as more important to know than others. Is this the case? Would an unschooler be automatically opposed to say, the concept of a literary canon? Forgive me, I've been in school a loooong time so I have a really hard time wrapping my brain around that concept.
I would say that some information isn't as important to some people as it is to others. It's not about the info, it's about the people. I do not need as much information about chemistry as a chemist or other scientist. Nor do I want it. If I wanted to be a chemist I would seek out the information. My friend who has zero interest in knitting does not need how to K2tog or bind off. So to her that information is not as important as, say...how to make blinkies on some new program she recently got for her PC.

Unschoolers value personal freedom. We want to read what interests us or what will help us get information we actually need. We don't want to read a book just because it's a classic or because everyone considers it the greatest thing ever even though it's as dry as old toast for us.


Quote:
(sorry this became so long and rambling!)
Nahhh, don't sweat it... you're talking to the Queen of long and rambling!

"The true measure of a man is how he treats a man who can do him absolutely no good."
peace.gif  Embrace the learning that is happening within the things that are actually happening!    
UnschoolnMa is offline  
#34 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 01:13 PM
 
Brisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 6,874
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
In other words:

a) I could waste years ostensibly learning about the world without actually being in it and without actually learning much at all.

b) As an unschooler, that isn't going to happen.

Now, given these two statements (which represent the original quoted statement,) it does not follow that

c) I believe all educational styles outside of unschooling are a waste of time.

In fact, a) and b) are true for me, but not c). I understand very well that other methods of schooling are not a waste of time given the goals that those methods seek to achieve. Those goals are not my goals, so it would be a waste of time for me, but logically not necessarily for others.
OK, but you're saying in a) that people who ostensibly learn about the world without actually being in it don't actually learn much at all, and in your summary at the end you say that other methods of schooling (meaning anything but unschooling, I assume) have different goals, so that makes a) (which includes not learning much of anything) OK. So what I'm getting from this is that you don't think homeschoolers learn much of anything, and that their goal isn't to learn much of anything. Did I misinterpret?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
as an unschooler I am free to devote all my learning time to living, and the world around me, and that which I choose to surround myself with specifically because it is useful or enjoyable or relevant to me. Whatever time I spend learning will therefore not be wasted time, because my learning is chosen by *me* for these most valid reasons. I do not have to waste time learning about things that I am not ready for or that are not important to me just because someone else has decided that they should be important to me.
I could say the same thing, but substitute "as a homeschooler" for "as an unschooler." I don't consider myself an unschooler, but all of the above is true for my family. I do introduce things to my kids, but they never waste time learning things they aren't ready for. We drop it and move on to something else if that happens.

Mom to DS(14), DS(12), DD(9), DS(6), DS (4), and DS(2)  

***4***8****13***17***21****26***heartbeat.gif****35****40

Brisen is offline  
#35 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 01:17 PM
 
Brisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 6,874
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
It's like saying, "I'm not a stupid girl." That doesn't mean that I think all girls are stupid, or even that any girls are stupid, just that I'm a girl and I'm not stupid.
But, unless he is a farmer, or considers himself (or herself) a homeschooler, it isn't the same thing. He isn't saying "I'm not a stupid/sheltered unschooler," he's saying "I'm not a stupid farmer or a homeschooler -- I'm an unschooler." It's more like saying "I'm not a stupid girl -- I'm a boy."

IMO.

And, actually, I don't really have so much of a problem with the comparisons to farmers or homeschoolers in the definition (and I grew up on a farm, too), but I agree with UUMom's take on it. Explaining yourself/promoting yourself by putting others down just doesn't help. Even here, in a place where hopefully there is a greater understanding of unschooling and what it's about, and where I would wager a lot of us share quite a lot of unschoolers' philosophies, it has triggered a pretty negative reaction.

Mom to DS(14), DS(12), DD(9), DS(6), DS (4), and DS(2)  

***4***8****13***17***21****26***heartbeat.gif****35****40

Brisen is offline  
#36 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 02:00 PM
 
cottonwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,383
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen View Post
But, unless he is a farmer, or considers himself (or herself) a homeschooler, it isn't the same thing. He isn't saying "I'm not a stupid/sheltered unschooler," he's saying "I'm not a stupid farmer or a homeschooler -- I'm an unschooler." It's more like saying "I'm not a stupid girl -- I'm a boy."
I'm not being clear enough I guess and my analogy was not perfectly matched so let me try again. It doesn't make any sense to me that anyone would prop up unschooling by dissing a *totally unrelated thing* -- it's like saying, "I'm not a homicidal kangaroo, I'm an unschooler." I mean, what's the point? There is no point, it's nonsensical. *Unless* there is an assumption among some that unschoolers are basically just homicidal kangaroos. Now, to deny that one is a homicidal kangaroo is not to say that all kangaroos are homicidal. It is *only* addressing the assumption that *unschoolers* are homicidal kangaroos.

Quote:
Explaining yourself/promoting yourself by putting others down just doesn't help. Even here, in a place where hopefully there is a greater understanding of unschooling and what it's about, and where I would wager a lot of us share quite a lot of unschoolers' philosophies, it has triggered a pretty negative reaction.
I'm certainly not supporting promotion through putting others down. What I am saying is that I don't see that it has to be interpreted that way.
cottonwood is offline  
#37 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 03:15 PM
 
Brisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 6,874
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
I'm certainly not supporting promotion through putting others down. What I am saying is that I don't see that it has to be interpreted that way.
And I don't think that unschoolers are supporting promotion through putting others down. I'm pointing out that if everyone is feeling put down by that kind of promotion, maybe the promotion should be rethought. (Although I would heavily emphasize the "maybe." I also tend to think that if I'm offended by something, I should take a closer look and see if I'm feeling attacked because of my own insecurities or dissatisfaction with how I'm doing things.)

And re: homicidal kangaroos... I do get your point. I guess it's a matter of how you interpret his tone. If the author is saying "people tend to think unschoolers are stupid farmers, but I'm neither, this is what I am" then yes, he's saying that it's the people making assumptions that are connecting farmers and stupidity. But if he's saying "I'm not some stupid farmer," that sounds to me like he is agreeing with them in categorizing farmers as stupid.

Mom to DS(14), DS(12), DD(9), DS(6), DS (4), and DS(2)  

***4***8****13***17***21****26***heartbeat.gif****35****40

Brisen is offline  
#38 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 03:36 PM
 
cottonwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,383
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen View Post
OK, but you're saying in a) that people who ostensibly learn about the world without actually being in it don't actually learn much at all,
Well, yes, that's a true statement simply because "they ostensibly learn" and "they don't learn much at all" are essentially the same thing (and yes I see that my statement that you're referring to was repetitive and could have been better worded, sorry.) But it's not what I said. What I said was that a person could waste years "learning" when learning isn't really happening, and one reason that this can happen is if it is removed from the world (i.e., it is devoid of context and not relevant to me as I relate to the world.) In other words, it is possible. As an unschooler (i.e., I am not made to learn anything, therefore there is not the possibility that I will be made to learn something that is not relevant and contextual) that's not a concern for me. It is, on the other hand, a possibility when learning is being imposed from without. That doesn't however mean that it WILL happen in all homeschooling situations. Therefore, a) and b) but not necessarily c).

Quote:
and in your summary at the end you say that other methods of schooling (meaning anything but unschooling, I assume) have different goals, so that makes a) (which includes not learning much of anything) OK.
Not at all. First I said that c) does not necessarily follow from a) and b). Then I elaborated on what I think about c). (I understand though that my train of thought there isn't obvious, sorry.) In fact, I don't believe that it's okay to be "learning" without really learning. That *is* a waste of time. But I don't think all homeschooling is "learning" without really learning. My choice to unschool is certainly not about some misconception that my children wouldn't learn anything if we were to homeschool!
cottonwood is offline  
#39 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 04:03 PM
 
cottonwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,383
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen View Post
I guess it's a matter of how you interpret his tone.
Yes. Part of what tipped me toward my interpretation was my own understanding of unschooling and my perception of myself as an unschooler. But also the self-aggrandizement which I thought was very funny in a mock-hubris sort of way. Again, though, that's from my vantage point as an unschooler. Given that, my interpretation makes sense; the other didn't even occur to me until I started reading through this thread.
cottonwood is offline  
#40 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 04:23 PM
 
cottonwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,383
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
as an unschooler I am free to devote all my learning time to living, and the world around me, and that which I choose to surround myself with specifically because it is useful or enjoyable or relevant to me. Whatever time I spend learning will therefore not be wasted time, because my learning is chosen by *me* for these most valid reasons. I do not have to waste time learning about things that I am not ready for or that are not important to me just because someone else has decided that they should be important to me.
I could say the same thing, but substitute "as a homeschooler" for "as an unschooler." I don't consider myself an unschooler, but all of the above is true for my family. I do introduce things to my kids, but they never waste time learning things they aren't ready for. We drop it and move on to something else if that happens.
Sure. And it doesn't invalidate the point I was trying to make.

I would argue, though, that while *you* may not be an unschooler, your daughter is if she has that freedom and uses it. Someone can try to impose on me their ideas about how and what I should learn, and I might even agree sometimes, but if I have the freedom to say "no" and make my own choices, then I am an unschooler. Unschoolers go to college and take classes of all kinds after all. There's a misperception that unschooling is inherently nonacademic and autodidactic. But the point of unschooling is not that you never take instruction from anyone, nor that you never give instruction. It's that the unschooler realizes that she is the ultimate authority on herself and has the freedom to choose what is important to her and how and when she approaches it.
cottonwood is offline  
#41 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
UnschoolnMa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Trying to release my cows..Join Me!
Posts: 15,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen View Post
And re: homicidal kangaroos... I do get your point. I guess it's a matter of how you interpret his tone. If the author is saying "people tend to think unschoolers are stupid farmers, but I'm neither, this is what I am" then yes, he's saying that it's the people making assumptions that are connecting farmers and stupidity. But if he's saying "I'm not some stupid farmer," that sounds to me like he is agreeing with them in categorizing farmers as stupid.

(Bolding emphasis mine) Yes, exactly. The first example is exactly how I am "hearing" him.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats a man who can do him absolutely no good."
peace.gif  Embrace the learning that is happening within the things that are actually happening!    
UnschoolnMa is offline  
#42 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 05:19 PM
 
Brisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 6,874
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
OK, now I think I'm guilty of getting things more involved than they need to be and focusing on differences rather than unity in the homeschooling community. But I'm still going to respond, because fourlittlebirds took the time to explain what she meant to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
Well, yes, that's a true statement simply because "they ostensibly learn" and "they don't learn much at all" are essentially the same thing (and yes I see that my statement that you're referring to was repetitive and could have been better worded, sorry.)
I really wasn't trying to nitpick about what you said -- I didn't see it as repetitive or poorly worded at all. Just that you were clarifying or emphasizing.

Quote:
But it's not what I said. What I said was that a person could waste years "learning" when learning isn't really happening, and one reason that this can happen is if it is removed from the world (i.e., it is devoid of context and not relevant to me as I relate to the world.) In other words, it is possible.
When you said

Quote:
a) I could waste years ostensibly learning about the world without actually being in it and without actually learning much at all.

b) As an unschooler, that isn't going to happen.
I took the "could" differently. I thought you could substitute everything after the "could" for "not unschool," and you were saying that you had the choice to do that -- not that it was one possible outcome of not unschooling. I saw it as "I could either waste years and not learn anything, or I could unschool." Not "If I didn't unschool, it is possible that my time could be wasted or I might not really learn anything." You were using "could" to mean the same thing as "might" -- am I on the right track?

Quote:
Not at all. First I said that c) does not necessarily follow from a) and b). Then I elaborated on what I think about c). (I understand though that my train of thought there isn't obvious, sorry.) In fact, I don't believe that it's okay to be "learning" without really learning. That *is* a waste of time. But I don't think all homeschooling is "learning" without really learning. My choice to unschool is certainly not about some misconception that my children wouldn't learn anything if we were to homeschool!
I did get that you were trying to show that you didn't think c) would necessarily follow, but I was referring to after that part, when you said

Quote:
I understand very well that other methods of schooling are not a waste of time given the goals that those methods seek to achieve. Those goals are not my goals, so it would be a waste of time for me, but logically not necessarily for others.
because I wasn't clear on what you thought were the goals that others had. I got sidetracked with it, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
I would argue, though, that while *you* may not be an unschooler, your daughter is if she has that freedom and uses it. Someone can try to impose on me their ideas about how and what I should learn, and I might even agree sometimes, but if I have the freedom to say "no" and make my own choices, then I am an unschooler. Unschoolers go to college and take classes of all kinds after all. There's a misperception that unschooling is inherently nonacademic and autodidactic.
While I get your point, there is a segment of the unschooling community who would argue with your definition, because the things I introduce or impose makes me not an unschooler. I think that's where the misconception comes from, and that's why I don't identify us as unschoolers.

Quote:
But the point of unschooling is not that you never take instruction from anyone, nor that you never give instruction. It's that the unschooler realizes that she is the ultimate authority on herself and has the freedom to choose what is important to her and how and when she approaches it.
The bolded part here is definitely central to my beliefs about learning. But I think the fact that I have my own beliefs about some core things that are important to my children to learn, which I will emphasize and make a part of our home (because I believe it is as important for me to be immersed in those things as it is for my children, otherwise it wouldn't be important for them) puts me outside of comfortably being able to call myself an unschooler. I would describe myself as a "hybrid classical ed homeschooler and unschooler," if I didn't think it would offend people in both camps

Mom to DS(14), DS(12), DD(9), DS(6), DS (4), and DS(2)  

***4***8****13***17***21****26***heartbeat.gif****35****40

Brisen is offline  
#43 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 06:01 PM
 
mz_libbie22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,231
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen View Post
I would describe myself as a "hybrid classical ed homeschooler and unschooler," if I didn't think it would offend people in both camps

That's me. I would define my approach as "relaxed, secular, classical ed." I could probably add more labels but I won't.
mz_libbie22 is offline  
#44 of 57 Old 05-22-2007, 08:25 PM
 
RSwildflower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Isn't it great to have a safe place to share something, even when we disagree? I think a thread like this is what unschooling is all about, learning from experience. I am sure many people will see things in a new light after this discussion!
RSwildflower is offline  
#45 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 12:40 AM
 
oceanbaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 11,464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
I'm not being clear enough I guess and my analogy was not perfectly matched so let me try again. It doesn't make any sense to me that anyone would prop up unschooling by dissing a *totally unrelated thing* -- it's like saying, "I'm not a homicidal kangaroo, I'm an unschooler." I mean, what's the point? There is no point, it's nonsensical. *Unless* there is an assumption among some that unschoolers are basically just homicidal kangaroos. Now, to deny that one is a homicidal kangaroo is not to say that all kangaroos are homicidal. It is *only* addressing the assumption that *unschoolers* are homicidal kangaroos.
I'm totally offended that you are dissing homicidal kangaroos.
oceanbaby is offline  
#46 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 01:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
UnschoolnMa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Trying to release my cows..Join Me!
Posts: 15,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSwildflower View Post
Isn't it great to have a safe place to share something, even when we disagree?
Absolutely!

Quote:
I'm totally offended that you are dissing homicidal kangaroos.
:

"The true measure of a man is how he treats a man who can do him absolutely no good."
peace.gif  Embrace the learning that is happening within the things that are actually happening!    
UnschoolnMa is offline  
#47 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 01:49 AM
 
cottonwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,383
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen View Post
I really wasn't trying to nitpick about what you said -- I didn't see it as repetitive or poorly worded at all.
Oh no, I didn't feel that way at all! I just feel like if I have something to own up to I should do that because then I don't sound like I'm coming across as an arrogant know-it-all.

Quote:
You were using "could" to mean the same thing as "might" -- am I on the right track?
Right.

Quote:
I did get that you were trying to show that you didn't think c) would necessarily follow, but I was referring to after that part,
Right, right, and what I was trying to get across was that it was at that point that I switched gears and was no longer talking about the relationship between a, b, and c, but just c itself. But really, if that doesn't clarify, I think we should stop talking about it, because it's starting to hurt my head.

Quote:
there is a segment of the unschooling community who would argue with your definition, because the things I introduce or impose makes me not an unschooler.
But I didn't claim you as an unschooler. They might still argue that the parent's actions, not the child's, define whether the child is an unschooler or not... in some cases that would be true, in some not.
cottonwood is offline  
#48 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 01:52 AM
 
cottonwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,383
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocean
I'm totally offended that you are dissing homicidal kangaroos.
Dude. Don't be so sensitive.




cottonwood is offline  
#49 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 09:29 AM
 
dharmamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bywater, West Farthing
Posts: 4,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mz_libbie22 View Post
I don't have unlimited funds to travel the world that I, as the parent, make a point to provide this knowledge through books.
And of course books (and tv, and radio, and the internet) are good for imparting knowledge about things we can't directly experience. The question is, who decides what to use these things for. You, or your kid?

Quote:
It seems like with unschooling, the quality of the education still is dependent upon the child's environment and the amount of effort put forth by the parents.
I agree with this. It's easier for my kids to have access to quality materials because my dh and I value that and we make it a priority in our lives.

Quote:
The child is still being taught, though certainly in a more subtle and child-friendly way than you see in a school.
My kids learn, but I don't "teach" them unless they ask me to. They learn from working with me, from hearing books, from watching videos, from taking trips, from discussing things, etc., but I don't choose what to "teach" them.

Quote:
It seems like unschooling parents are denying their natural role as teacher by saying their kids are 100% in responsible for their own education.
My kids are responsible for deciding what to learn and when. I am responsible for assisting them in whatever way they ask in order to accomplish the learning goals they set for themselves (and that sounds very formal, but it's not; we don't write up goals or even discuss them, but my kids know what they want to learn and when they are done with it).

Quote:
I feel like some credit is owed to the parent for all the time spent reading aloud, explaining things and answering questions, transporting kids to museums--that's teaching! To me, parenting and teaching are the same things.
Fair enough. I agree that my kids learn a lot from me. But it's not because I prioritize what they need to know and intentionally try to impart it to them.

Quote:
Even talking is a taught skill. Though it seems to arise spontaneously, it is still something babies are taught (by example) to do by their elders.
Perhaps, but do you decide which sound or which word your child will work on today? Do you tell your child he can't move on to "da-da-da" because his "ba-ba-ba" is still a bit unclear? When your child says, "kitty," do you tell him that kitty is on the schedule for next week and that this week's word is "doggy"? I'd imagine not. Your child learns by example from you but at his or her own pace and according to his or her immediate needs and capacities.

Quote:
When I make choices about what toys to buy, what books to read at bedtime, what activities to do, etc. I have a specific intention and that is to create a learning rich environment.
A child can have a learning-rich environment even if they choose their own activities. I assist me kids in choosing books, toys, trips, etc., but my intention is to provide them with information to make their own choice, not to make the choice for them because I know better what's in their best interest. My kids don't know all the options because they are young; my job is to assist them to make choices in an age-appropriate way. If we are going out to dinner, I don't say, "We are going out for Thai food so you can have a cultural experience." That woudl be unnecessarily restrictive. Nor do I say, "Here's the phone book with every restaurant in the city. Pick one." That would be unnecessarily overwhelming. What I do is take in mind their food preferences and previous experiences at certain restaurants and make a few suggestions. They can choose on or come up with their own suggestion, and we all decide together. (Although, of course, occasionally I decide where I want to go and invite them to join me if they so desire, but since I decided *I* want Indian food, that's there *I* am going. And I give the kids the same courtesy.)

Quote:
I want my DS to know the story of Odysseus, so I make a point to read it to him.
There are definitely books I think my kids would like. So I ask them if they want me to read them. If they say no, I don't, no matter how much I wanted to read it to them. What will my kids gain being forced to sit through a book they don't want to hear?

Quote:
By the definitions I've come across on this board, my intent to impart knowledge on my DS means I wouldn't be considered an unschooler.
To me it's your intent to choose what your son does that makes you not an unschooler.

Quote:
But how can you not do this with young kids?
By offering kids options and letting them choose (or choose not to choose, as the case may be).

Quote:
I am perfectly fine admitting that I don't trust my 5 yr old to learn it if the need arises.
That, also, makes you not an unschooler (at least in my book). To me, the fundamental idea of unschooling is trust. Without that, nothing else "unschoolish" that you do makes you an unschooler.

Quote:
It seems unschoolers don't see any information as more important to know than others.
At least for me, I do think that there are certain things that are more worthy of knowing than others. But it's not my job to make that decision for my kids.

dm
dharmamama is offline  
#50 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 10:20 AM
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceanbaby View Post
I'm totally offended that you are dissing homicidal kangaroos.

How fun are all of you? :
UUMom is offline  
#51 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 02:03 PM
 
mz_libbie22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,231
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama View Post

My kids learn, but I don't "teach" them unless they ask me to. They learn from working with me, from hearing books, from watching videos, from taking trips, from discussing things, etc., but I don't choose what to "teach" them.


My kids are responsible for deciding what to learn and when. I am responsible for assisting them in whatever way they ask in order to accomplish the learning goals they set for themselves


There are definitely books I think my kids would like. So I ask them if they want me to read them. If they say no, I don't, no matter how much I wanted to read it to them. What will my kids gain being forced to sit through a book they don't want to hear?



To me it's your intent to choose what your son does that makes you not an unschooler.



At least for me, I do think that there are certain things that are more worthy of knowing than others. But it's not my job to make that decision for my kids.

dm

OK, but it's not like I've ever forced my DS to sit through anything he didn't want to. It's not like he doesn't have any choices. I can't force him to do anything as he's his own person with his own will. But at the age he's at now, I don't feel it's appropriate for him to be 100% responsible for his education; that doesn't seem fair to the child imo. So I did intentionally "teach" DS the sounds letters make. Did this involve him sitting in a chair miserable while I drilled him? No. Do I *make* DS listen to stories that I pick out even if he doesn't want to? No. Do I know my DS well enough to be able to pick out stories he likes? Yep. And since I'm the one who has to read the books, I choose ones that I will enjoy reading as well. But it's not like DS never gets to pick out his own books. It's a matter of creating a balance so that I'm not constantly forcing him to make decisions and he's not forced to go along with my decisions.

"Your child learns by example from you but at his or her own pace and according to his or her immediate needs and capacities."

This is exactly how we do things.
mz_libbie22 is offline  
#52 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 02:13 PM
 
mz_libbie22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,231
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Also, just to clarify, I wasn't using the word "teacher" in the "school teacher" sense but, as a more general term that describes someone who you learn from.
mz_libbie22 is offline  
#53 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 03:22 PM
 
zonapellucida's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: betwixt and between bairns
Posts: 4,014
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think it clever

 Mom of many minions . . . babyf.gif jumpers.gif     jumpers.gif     jumpers.gif
"And when our baby stirs and struggles to be born it compels humility: what we began is now its own." Margaret Mead 
zonapellucida is offline  
#54 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 04:01 PM
 
mommabear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 638
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceanbaby View Post
I'm totally offended that you are dissing homicidal kangaroos.
Literally. All over myself.
mommabear is offline  
#55 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 04:41 PM
 
dharmamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bywater, West Farthing
Posts: 4,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mz_libbie22 View Post
But at the age he's at now, I don't feel it's appropriate for him to be 100% responsible for his education;
It may be splitting hairs for me repeat this, but I don't think that my kids are 100% responsible for their education. I think that they are responsible for following their own interests and I am responsible for assisting them as they request or for making suggestions if I see them struggling.

If, however, you are saying you don't think it's appropriate for your son to choose on his own what he wants to learn and do, and that you should do this for him to make sure certain things are covered, that is where we differ, even if what you do and what I do look similar from the outside.

dm
dharmamama is offline  
#56 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 04:56 PM
 
mommabear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 638
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama View Post
It may be splitting hairs for me repeat this, but I don't think that my kids are 100% responsible for their education. I think that they are responsible for following their own interests and I am responsible for assisting them as they request or for making suggestions if I see them struggling.

If, however, you are saying you don't think it's appropriate for your son to choose on his own what he wants to learn and do, and that you should do this for him to make sure certain things are covered, that is where we differ, even if what you do and what I do look similar from the outside.

dm
mommabear is offline  
#57 of 57 Old 05-23-2007, 08:48 PM
 
Brisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 6,874
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
Right, right, and what I was trying to get across was that it was at that point that I switched gears and was no longer talking about the relationship between a, b, and c, but just c itself. But really, if that doesn't clarify, I think we should stop talking about it, because it's starting to hurt my head.
It didn't clarify -- because I was already clear on that. I was more wondering what you meant by other methods having their own goals, not so much wondering if you were talking about a, b, c, or the relationship between them. But I agree, I think I get what you're saying, and it's time to let this go

But thanks for taking the time to answer all of my questions! :

Mom to DS(14), DS(12), DD(9), DS(6), DS (4), and DS(2)  

***4***8****13***17***21****26***heartbeat.gif****35****40

Brisen is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off