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#1 of 48 Old 10-05-2007, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I always read about people taking their children on all these field trips, buying fairly high-priced cirriculums, buying this-and-that-and-this... How do you afford it? Am I just looking at the wrong posts?
I guess what i'm looking for is some estimates on how much you ladies have actually spent on HSing or HSing-related things, including field trip admission prices, etc.
Input would be appreciated. We're dead-bent on HSing (after my experiences in PS I will NOT allow my child to be 'dumbed' down), and hopefully when she's at the right age we won't be so tight financially. But right now it seems like it would be impossible to give her a 'good' education.
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#2 of 48 Old 10-05-2007, 11:58 PM
 
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For us it's much more affordable than sending them to school, primarily because everything we "buy" and "do" now for HSing, we would even if they were in school. So we basically save all the expenses of schools (supplies, clothing, gas, etc.).

We buy everything used. Well, almost everything - I did just buy Miquon math brand new. Our area has some really fabulous free and low-cost public resources (library system, environmental education center, etc.). That helps. A lot.

Oh, and we barter for some of the kids activities. Our music instructor owns her own business, so she bartered with us for music instruction - that alone is saving us close to $1k per year. (3 kids, weekly classes, curriculum materials - it adds up, quick).

We're also slowly working on bringing family/friends around to giving tickets for birthdays/holidays instead of toys. We have enough toys, no room for more, and the kids would really rather spend some time with their loved ones on different outings.

It does require creativity to do it cheaply, but it can be done.
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#3 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 12:00 AM
 
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Again, I want to reiterate that I don't really spend money on anything that's just for "homeschooling". Everything we spend money on, we would even if they were in school.

We'd still want them to have these private music lessons, even if they were in school. We'd still buy the Natural History museum membership, even if they were in school. We'd still be planning family trips to different places/museums/galleries/etc., even if they were in school. We'd still have tons of books, manipulatives, microscopes, art supplies, etc. in the house, even if they were in school.
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#4 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 12:01 AM
 
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We don't spend much. I keep an eye out for free or very cheap field trips and limit to 2 a month. There are 4 of us unless dh wants to join us. We use the library a lot, they have lots of curriculum stuff. I use the internet...bc it's here and there are TONS of free stuff out there. We do free stuff around the city too (museums, teach in the grocery store, local parks...). It's doable without much money. We don't belong to a charter school and don't buy curriculum books...there is just waaaay too much out there to choose from. So we do our own thing.
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#5 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 12:02 AM
 
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Oh and our museums have free days throughout the month so we go then...and brave the crowds
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#6 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 12:05 AM
 
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We try to homeschool as cheaply as possible. We miss a lot of activities with our group because we're not into spending money every day. There are a few people in our group who seem to spend money 24/7 on homeschooling activities. I'm just not into that. We're not poor at all, and I want to keep it that way!

So, some people don't spend much money. It doesn't mean that you have to stay home, you just have to find free and cheap things to do. I buy memberships to places that we like, we go to park dates, we go to free museum days, we invite friends over and go see friends. I did sign up for some worksheet places online, but they're not very expensive.

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#7 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 12:48 AM
 
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We could definitely do it with less - I just like buying books

I would estimate that we will spend less than $1000 this year, and that's for all of our books, memberships, workbooks, art supplies, crafts, trips, etc. We have memberships to children's museums, zoos and science centers, which takes care of most of our field trips. We are starting sports at the Y, but the cost is minimal - maybe $22/session? If I used the library, we could easily homeschool this year for $300 + memberships (which we would have anyways).

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#8 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 01:10 AM
 
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i was homeschooled with three sisters and my family was not wealthy at all! my mother was very innovative in what she used and purchased used at used curriculum sales,yardsales, and thrift shops.we utilized the library a great deal. she told me one year she spent $100 on school books for all of us! this was after i told her how much i spent! my dh supports our family rather well and we are able to spend a good deal on "school" supplies. the majority i spend on quality art supplies and buy my books used for the most part.if i were you, i would pick a budget and stick with it and then decide how you are going to homeschool...ie; classical,waldorf,eclectic etc. and then look into some of the free curriculum and utilize your library. for example, your budget is $100 and you want to do a classical literature based program like sonlight. i would order the catalog and then check out as many books as you can from the library and search yardsales for the rest. i found several from their lists at yardsales this past summer.you really don't need the instructor's guides...i have 'em and don't like them. you could make your own history timeline with a notebook and page protectors.for math manipulatives we love these gems we found at the dollar stpre and stones we gathered at the beach.i think the 'what your ***grader needs to know are great. they are cheap $13 and have every subject you teach in them and are great for starting a lesson and the expanding on. for math, in the early grades use a lot of manipulatives and around the house stuff. bob jones has math workbooks for $16.50 that are pretty complete. teacher's guides in k and 1 are highly overrated! science is easily covered by books from the library and around the house experiments. art is mostly about the experience and i would spend the most here on high quality materials.so...
$10 on books at yardsales
$16.50 on math workbook
$2.12 for gems and a basket to keep them in
$4 for a binder and page protector's
$6 on misc. science supplies
$13 for what your *** grader needs to know
the rest on art supplies and a bag of chocolate.


obviously, this is an example, but you can play with the numbers and see what you come up with. i count all extra's like museum memberships as "life" things...not homeschooling stuff.
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#9 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 05:15 AM
 
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I don't think we spend more than we would if our kids went to school. There is very little that I spend money on now, that I wouldn't if we didn't homeschool. When you figure that with how much money even the public schools regularly request and/or demand, heck, we may even come out ahead!
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#10 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 10:57 AM
 
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We have a zoo membership $60/year and a science center membership $110/year (although it has expired and we can't afford to renew it yet) and we take advantage of those and their reciprocal memberships. These are great things to ask for Christmas presents from the grandparents. That is what we are going to do this year.

We don't buy expensive curriculum. I do buy books, lots of books. I probably spend $50 easy a month on books but I don't need to and if money became too tight I would stop buying them! I try to take advantage of used stores and half.com as much as possible.

$20 a month is alloted for co-ops. We don't always use that much; on the rare occasion we spend a little more.

$20 a month is also alloted for archery range fees

As far as consumable curriculum goes, there is Math U See. I only buy the student books $20/year. Mindbenders runs $10/year.

I spend between $50 and $75 on lapbooks and lapbooking supplies each year and around $20 on craft supplies each month or so. Both costs I could cut if I had to.
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#11 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 11:38 AM
 
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We probably don't spend more than if our kids were in school. I do buy some curriculum, but it's not a package, I piece together my own and we do use a lot of cheap workbooks you can get at the local bookstore. My ds absolutely loves workbooks, so we'd be getting those anyway. We check out a LOT of library books. I think I've had more than 60 books out one time and our book basket was overflowing! We don't do fieldtrips with other hsers right now. Ds does not really enjoy being around a lot of kids or taking classes, though I'm thinking about enrolling him in Karate next fall (we're currently trying to figure out how we're going topay for it, though). We do family outings on weekends, but we would do those anyway, so it doesn't really count. My dd does library storytime (which is free) and I'm about to sign her up for dance class at the YMCA (about $80 for 8 weeks cause we aren't members), but she'd be taking dance class anyway and she's only 3, so I guess not technically a hser right now. That's about it. I estimated that I spent less than $400 for the whole year and I do know that about half of that was for reference books that we'll be using for years and years.(and I probably would have bought those anyway) I LOVE books and I LOVE shopping for books. Seriously, it's an addiction.
We were in Staples the week school went back and the guy ahead of us in line spent $200 on just school supplies for his 2 kids that were with him! I think he almost fainted when the cashier told him the total. The kids were about middle school age, but that still seemed like A LOT of money and they didn't have anything really expensive like fancy calculaders or anything.
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#12 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 12:16 PM
 
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We have a fairly frugal lifestyle,live in a rural area.Maybe it's cheaper to live in the country?I don't spend a lot on eating out or groceries.The garden supplies alot of our veggies.We don't have expensive clothes.I can sew most of what my daughters and I need.I've sewn pj's and shirts for the boys.I guess that's left more room to buy books and art supplies in our budget.If you scout out yard sales and book sales,used online sellers you can get more for your dollar than buying new(LOl).
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#13 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 01:39 PM
 
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From your signature, it looks like you have a baby. My youngest child is 9 and my DH now makes more than twice when I last had a baby!!!

For the most part, we homeschool very inexpensively because some of the things that I believe provide my kids with the best possible education are free. I think my kids get a better education by using the library than they would if I bought an expensive curriculm, and I think spending a lot of time in nature is good thing.

On some things we splurg -- we do some expensive field trips. We could homeschool without those, and but we enjoy them and can afford them, so we indulge. There are a lot of *right* ways to homeschool.

The line for us between homeschooling and just parenting is very blurred, so it is impossible for me to say what we spend on homeschooling that we wouldn't be spending if the kids went to school. The things we spend the most money on --enriching classes, sports, and day trips on weekends as a family -- are things that we would still do, but may be a bit less because of time constrants.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#14 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 04:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riaketty View Post
I always read about people taking their children on all these field trips, buying fairly high-priced cirriculums, buying this-and-that-and-this... How do you afford it? Am I just looking at the wrong posts?
I guess what i'm looking for is some estimates on how much you ladies have actually spent on HSing or HSing-related things, including field trip admission prices, etc.
Input would be appreciated. We're dead-bent on HSing (after my experiences in PS I will NOT allow my child to be 'dumbed' down), and hopefully when she's at the right age we won't be so tight financially. But right now it seems like it would be impossible to give her a 'good' education.
Nope. Education is not curricula, equipment, supplies, trips. We don't have expensive curricula and we certainly are not able to go on trips. We have minimal equipment/supplies.

Find out the hours that are free for your local museums. Ask if they offer educational discounts. Go to parks, (state, national, local) and to historic places. Go to libraries, used books stores and thirft stores. And I hear there is much online that is free.

We don't do coops so we don't have fees there. I have four children, two are homeschooling, two are too young still. I am very resourceful. I have to be.
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#15 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 04:06 PM
 
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you dont HAVE to do all that stuff, and thats why its more affordable than PS. You can do as much or as little as you can afford. PS you have fees and stationary and sports, feilds trips, lunches etc etc etc.

I just read a great article in the july/august 07 issue of home education magazine {volume 24 number 4} (I get it from our library) its in the "ask carol" column, and it talks about homeschooling with a small budget or minimum amount of stuff. Its full of great ideas, I reccomend you find a copy and read it.
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#16 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 04:24 PM
 
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We don't spend a ton. I traded handmade soap for a curriculum that my daughter won't use. We pay for classes at the YMCA, but on scholarship, and we would do those lessons even if not homeschooling. We buy books from scholastic, but again, we would do that even if we weren't homeschooling. We have a few workbooks laying around that came from the bookstore, lots of art supplies, and that is about it. We do free activities such as go to the zoo on a special day that is free or walk around the farmer's market or go for a walk in a nature preserve. We go to the library once a week and stock up on books and videos and cds. We belong to a homeschooling group that cost $15 for the whole year and go to a monthly potluck for that. Really, that is about it. Otherwise my kids just enjoy playing around here or with the kids in the neighborhood, so that costs me nothing extra.

Erika, mama to three beautiful kids (plus one gestating), and wife to one fantastic man.

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#17 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 05:25 PM
 
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We're fortunate that we receive close to $700 in funding through our school board as this is the set up in our province. To help stretch that money further, we shop at garage sales, ask for educational gifts, and use the library. I've also started selling Usborne books to help build our home library as I'm a much bigger fan of having books on hand than having to go to the library all the time.

Kim - Wife to Liam , Unschooly mama to Nick (10/00) Lily (09/05) and Olivia (07/09)
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#18 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 05:48 PM
 
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you dont HAVE to do all that stuff, and thats why its more affordable than PS. You can do as much or as little as you can afford. PS you have fees and stationary and sports, feilds trips, lunches etc etc etc.

I just read a great article in the july/august 07 issue of home education magazine {volume 24 number 4} (I get it from our library) its in the "ask carol" column, and it talks about homeschooling with a small budget or minimum amount of stuff. Its full of great ideas, I reccomend you find a copy and read it.
I didn't even think of lunch costs it's on average what 3.00$/meal/day if you don't qualify for reduced lunch? 3*20 (assuming 20 day month 5 days*4 weeks) =60$/month just on lunch, so around 500/year just on school lunch? Wow.

Not to mention a lot of public schools now you don't even get to keep your school supplies so parents have to buy two sets of everything!
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#19 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 05:58 PM
 
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I'm another that could not afford to send the kids to public school if they were to go. They need a lot more there than we do at home. While we basically unschool, I decide what is most important for us to buy. Math-u-see is one of those things. You don't need a fancy math curriculum, but it was important to me. I did buy some items I did not like and have either sold them or are about to. The great thing about homeschool stuff is you can usually sell it for close to what you paid for it . I buy tons of books but 95% or more are from thrift stores where they are always under a dollar (usually a quarter each). I make a profit when I sell these . We take advantage of the library and inter-library loan since there isn't much here. Art supplies are all from the dollar store. Games and fun things are from second hand stores.

We don't have a lot of fun places to go here, no fancy museums, no cool science centers, ect... so I'm not worried about that anyway. They don't have many field trips at the schools here as far as I know, so I'm not concerned. We have always had at least one really cool summer trip that doubles as an educational trip (ie, to the city where they do have the cool museums, camping to explore nature, ect...). For us, a nature walk is a good field trip or to a friend's garden or even just daily activities such as shopping or going to the duck pond.

We plan on getting a subsidized YMCA membership but right now it would go to waste so we'll wait.

The point is, it is mainly things we would have and do anyway, so it's not an extra expense.
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#20 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 06:47 PM
 
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The point is, it is mainly things we would have and do anyway, so it's not an extra expense.
yeah, for us museam/aquarium/zoo memberships would be a thing we got even if we didnt want to hs. We didn't get one this year, because ds is still so small and not good with crowds, but we hope to try him out at the museam etc once or twice, then get a membership.
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#21 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 07:01 PM
 
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We homeschool through a charter which provides students with $800 per school year for curriculum/materials/classes etc. We also find a lot of neat things at thrift shops such as globes, books on tape, art supplies, a rock tumbler, tons of books, and Muzzy Spanish. Freecycle has also been helpful for craft supplies. Oh, and of course the library! But I'm notorious for racking up late fees so we don't get to use it as much as I would like.
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#22 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 08:58 PM
 
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We follow a free online Charlotte Mason-based curriculum: http://AmblesideOnline.org.

I didn't choose it because it's free, but because I really love it and find it to be rigorous and thorough. You can check the suggested books out of the library or find many of the resources (books, poems, music, art, etc) for free online. If you were radically frugal, I think you could do AO for $20 or less a year.

There's also a very highly regarded math program that's free online, called The Mathematics Enhancement Programme: http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm

We buy consumable supplies when they're on sale as loss leaders before PS starts (i.e. crayons for $0.20/pack), and everything else is purchased used, on ebay, or when it goes on sale.

I think we save a ton of money by HSing. I've checked out the lists of required supplies for PS when they're posted at the stores in July and the required items are not cheap. Things I don't have to buy:

Tissues and hand sanitizer for the class (on the "required" lists for PS)
Markers, crayons, scissors, glue, etc for the class
Teacher's gifts (unless I buy for myself )
Teacher's Aide gifts
Extensive wardrobe of clothes (we're casual here at home during the week and no one gets teased for wearing the same thing twice in a week, or going to school in pajamas!!)
School lunches
"Convenience foods"
Required snacks for the class (usually have to be individually packaged, commercially prepared snacks due to allergy concerns)
School fundraisers
PTO fees
Misc fees
Gasoline to drive to/from school (I wouldn't put a 5 yr old on a bus with older children)

Also, we save money on clothes because the children change into play clothes for messy or dirty activities - at PS there's no changing for recess (if they even have recess anymore!)

Oh, and you can do a lot of fun activities for free or at greatly reduced prices. We went to Sea World for HSer's day and it cost $8/pp versus the usual $50. The rollercoasters weren't open but it was no big deal.

We also go on vacation during the off-season -- a condo rental in September/October is 1/3 the cost of a rental in the Summer or during a public school break.

Not to mention that we don't have a TV, so my children don't know about all the newest trendy toys, and they likely won't be hearing about them too often (likewise for trendy clothes). Materialism is kept to a minimum much more easily by HSing, which reduces your overall costs.

Blessed Mama to 4 and expecting one more!
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#23 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 09:14 PM
 
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We homeschool on next to nothing also. I get 95% of my ideas online. We get tons of library books and movies. We'd buy paper, glue, etc anyway so I stock up during the back to school sales. My parents go to lots of Goodwills and they pick up books for us, usually less than $1 and it's their gift to the kids. We do all free or almost free activities.
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#24 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 09:25 PM
 
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We're using a fairly expensive curriculum, but we're not paying for it [directly]-- we get it free, through a public cyber charter school. Even though we have this ostensibly complete curriculum, we do A LOT of supplementing. Even so, I have spent very little on school (and most of that has been on gas to get places : ). Crayons, for example, we'd have bought anyway. Likewise colored pencils (and who knew the boy would like using them for assessments? ), glue sticks, and little-kid scissors. Field trips have been free/cheap, again the most expensive part is paying for gas.

This is still cheaper than public brick & mortar school-- no uniforms, no class snacks or classroom supplies, no waking up at an obscene hour every single day (yes, time IS money, even if you're not getting paid!), and I can put off things like buying new shoes until we have the money. I mean, this year I've only got one who'd be "in school," but six years from now I'd have four kids-- that'd be four new pairs of shoes every fall, and I'd have to buy them all at once... : UGH, you know? Just UGH.

Public school is not free. Seriously.

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#25 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 10:05 PM
 
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This is a child age thang, I think. I would absolutely be spedning far less if my teen dd was in public high school. Right now I pay for community college classes, art classes (and materials! Which I would not have to do if she were in the local HS), voice lessons (which she wouldn't need if she were in HS, as she could take voice/ chorus as a daily class (with an audition). She could take two art classes a semester, which would meet 4 times /week. Paying for all of this privately is no cheap thing.

Even if my children attended school, I would still have my zoo, museum, theater etc memberships, no matter.

ETA--As for my youngest...well, I do pay for her attendance at a book club and other various activities. But it's not nearly as costly as the teen activities.
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#26 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 10:12 PM
 
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we did it on the cheap for several years and then I decided I would rather have a job than waste hordes of time scrounging for sub standard stuff.

so I got a job working for 3 hours once a week. my kids could come with and I was teaching a class my kids could participate in (it was through a church and I know the churches around here are always looking for babysitters for their bible studies and MOPs groups) It worked out to about $75-$100 a month tax free. One year they paid my dd a small stipend to be a helper in the class. bonus! now i actually work full time because I enjoy working. It is so nice to be able to just go buy books or memberships without having to stress out. It also enables us to do lessons for each girl. its nice.

that said. we still only spend about $500-$1000 a year on supplies and classes that we wouldn't otherwise take/need and all of our school supplies (notebooks, pencils etc). which works out to $50-$100 a month (with a couple months off). when you plan it out monthly it doesn't feel like such a burden. If you can't buy your curiculum a litle at a time I recommend doing it as cheaply as possible and putting away that $50-$100 a month so that you will have a stash come August when everything is on sale.

careful buying used too. Know what it would cost you to buy it new (regardless of the price on the back of the book you can almost always find it less), factor in shipping if you are buying on lin, and make sure you are saving enough to make it a better deal (anything less $5 difference is not a good enough deal for me. I would rather just buy it new. it has to last through three girls for us). I recently sold some books online and coul;dn't believe how much i got for them. people couldn't have saved more than a few pennies after shipping and everything. good for me. not so much for them. and to think of the time they probably spent searching for that good deal.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#27 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 10:21 PM
 
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I'd have four kids-- that'd be four new pairs of shoes every fall, and I'd have to buy them all at once... : UGH, you know? Just UGH.
oh you underestimate. they would need tennis shoes and dress shoes and our school require snow boots and snow pants. now my kids can wear ridiculous snow pants and snow boots while scumming around with their friends who are also all wearing ridiculous hand me downs (Seriously they look like clowns when they are heading out to play in the snow, we all get a pretty good kick out of it) but if they were taking them to school every day we would have to get them decent ones.

So your looking at 3 new pairs of shoes for each kid every fall and then comes spring . . . . . . I don't know about you but my kids are barefoot most of the time. Imagine how much more quickly they would wear through their shoes if they were wearing them all day every day! Crazy stuff . .

sorry, i just dropped $100 on cheap shoes for my kids because everything conspired against us and none of them gad any shoes. It still stings. 4 pairs at one time and they weren't even great shoes. I just sat their thinking . . . "how do people do this every fall?"

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#28 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 10:24 PM
 
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I spend almost nothing for HSing. I borrowed some materials from another HS family who don't have kids DD's age (used for older kids but don't need it for a younger child yet.) I have a Hebrew textbook that a friend gave me when the Hebrew School she taught at updated their textbooks, and we supplement with internet resources and the public library.

My parents cover certain field trips that DD goes on through the local HS group- if not we'd simply skip certain activities and only join up with the group for the free activities and some of the cheap ones. My parents similarly pay for school field trips for the 2 kids who are in school- and for whom missing a field trip would be a heck of a lot more awkward (though the last time I tried to keep my child out of a field trip due to inability to pay, funding mysteriously became available.)

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19, Hannah, 18, and Jack, 12
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#29 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 10:28 PM
 
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oh you underestimate. they would need tennis shoes and dress shoes and our school require snow boots and snow pants. now my kids can wear ridiculous snow pants and snow boots while scumming around with their friends who are also all wearing ridiculous hand me downs (Seriously they look like clowns when they are heading out to play in the snow, we all get a pretty good kick out of it) but if they were taking them to school every day we would have to get them decent ones.

So your looking at 3 new pairs of shoes for each kid every fall and then comes spring . . . . . . I don't know about you but my kids are barefoot most of the time. Imagine how much more quickly they would wear through their shoes if they were wearing them all day every day! Crazy stuff . .

sorry, i just dropped $100 on cheap shoes for my kids because everything conspired against us and none of them gad any shoes. It still stings. 4 pairs at one time and they weren't even great shoes. I just sat their thinking . . . "how do people do this every fall?"
Saver's or consignments stores don't charge any extra for Circo snowpants or boots pants Vs LL Bean/Patagonia gear. Just in case you ever decide to send your children to school.

UUMom, who just picked up a Patagonia snow jacket and pants for $8, and Lands' End boots for $3. Although you really don't have issues even in public schools by wearing navy or black or pink or purple snowpants, which are on the racks at Goodwill for like $5. Plain , cheap boots are very common as well.

PS I honestly feel my hsers need quality warm clothing even more than schoolers might, as we spend far more time outside daily than most schooled kids. My kids can spend a copuple of hours out in the snow at a crack, and I don't know any public schools where kids would be allowed outside to make snow people or sled for that amount of time. We need warm clothing, no matter, and my kids still need shoes.
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#30 of 48 Old 10-06-2007, 11:08 PM
 
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We usually get a membership to the science center for Christmas from my mom, which makes our field trips there free. I got us a zoo membership with babysitting money when I watched a girl who lives near the zoo (we took her there so her mom could sleep after working a night shift).

We are fairly structured in terms of what we use for homeschooling. I buy Singapore Math and Developmental Math, Explode the Code and Pathway Readers for Reading, spelling and handwriting books, Story of the World book and activity book sets, Usborne books for science, etc. This year I sold a Merry Maids gift card that I had won in order to pay for their books.

Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
13yo ds   10yo dd  8yo ds and 6yo ds and 1yo ds  
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