dangerous book for boys - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 02:50 AM
 
PatchyMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Viva Las Vegas
Posts: 5,611
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't feel like reading the whole thread, but I did want to say that this book is available at costco right now I am going to get it for my DD for christmas
PatchyMama is offline  
#122 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 03:48 AM
 
sadie_sabot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: dystopia
Posts: 5,331
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipumpkins View Post
Just for the record, girl power is actually a marketing ploy that seems to only teach girls that boys are smelly, that girls like to shop and read glam magazines.
Girl power isn't about power at all.
Girl power is bad for girls and boys.
As for the book I think while some people think it's nice to finally have something marketed to boys please look at what exactly is being shoved down girls throats in order to tell them how to be girls.
The title of the book doesn't bother me per se. I would buy it for my daughter and explain the history of why it's named that and get her the girl one, too as long as the girl one wasn't about making braids
thank you for this excellent summary of girl power.
sadie_sabot is offline  
#123 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 08:05 AM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow... I wish i could say I was surprised that this thread is so long and tempers run a bit high.. but I'm not.

Boys and girls are different. Some of us acknowledge this as fact, and some of us don't. Boys and girls, in general, have different personalities and needs; Again, some of us acknowledge this as fact and some of us don't. I know I saw things very differently before I found myself faced with a child who was not only anatomically male but decidedly masculine before he was a year old, despite his affinity for all things pink and sparkly.

I think that boys are seriously shortchanged in school, and I think that girls are seriously shortchanged by the anti-boy, "pro-girl" shift that's occurred. I also don't think that the title of the book is a giant anti-girl statement. It's not fair to boys or girls to say that they are the same, nor to treat girls in an "opposite" way to what they've experienced in the past just because the pendulum has swung to the opposite extreme. The way boys are treated is just one more thing on my terribly long list of reasons not to send the boy to school, despite the fact that he looks white and would be a lot better off than my nephew, who is more obviously mixed. BooBah is just as physically active as her brother (join me on Facebook for pictures of her waving the BIG STICK; scroll back in the blog for BooBah falling off the top of the toy car onto concrete), she's capable of achieving the same volume, and when the two of them go at it, there really isn't any telling who started it all unless you were RIGHT there. Even so, I see that people respond differently to her energy. Even when her behavior is identical to his, it's more acceptable. The way i see it, in today's society boys do need more affirmation... and girls would likely benfit from boys being treated more like people and less like little time bombs.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#124 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 08:26 AM
 
CaraboosMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,003
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The gender specification does bug me when it's exclusionary...BUT in this case, I'm happy to see an author celebrating dangerous and daring aspect of childhood instead of everything being - must have helmets, must use in the way it was designed etc. It boggles my mind that the same parents who get freaked out if their kids get extremely dirty, climb trees, play "dangerously" see nothing wrong with chemical laden foods & vaxesk...kind of a sidetrack from the original post, but kwim?
CaraboosMama is offline  
#125 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 09:28 AM
 
dharmamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bywater, West Farthing
Posts: 4,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadie_sabot View Post
Different kids like different activities
Since everyone involved in this thread agrees with that, I wonder why we can't all just tell our kids that instead of getting so hung up on a title? Just tell your kids, "This book is called the Dangerous Book for Boys, but as you know, Different kids like different activities." Do we really think that kids are so fragile that the title of a book will dictate their gender expectations? Won't they be shaped more by what we actually say to and do with our kids than by what someone else calls their book?

I was just talking to my dad about this in another context. When I grew up, boys were expected to take hard sciences and advanced math. Girls were expected to tale cooking and sewing. Studies showed that by middle school, girls were losing their academic confidence and becoming more concerned with not looking too smart. However, I was NOT raised in that way by my parents, so I did not have those ideas. I was just thanking my dad for that yesterday. One of my favorite books when I was young? My dad's old Wolf Scout guidebook, an extremely macho book that you can bet never mentioned girls. It was a book written for boys and I loved it. I knew it didn't matter whether it was written for boys or girls. I still had fun carving totem poles and making bows and arrows and cooking in a sterno can over a fire. I would have been really confused if someone would have acted put out that the book was only for boys or implied that it said something negative about girls. To me it was just a really old book and I understood that it reflected older stereotypes about gender.

The DBfB is a new book whose title maybe reflects some outdated stereotypes about gender (but I don't think it does). I think today's kids are perfectly capable of understanding why and by whom the book was written. I think kids are perfectly capable of understanding that "Different kids like different activities."

dm
dharmamama is offline  
#126 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 10:07 AM
 
dharmamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bywater, West Farthing
Posts: 4,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Btw, a friend just sent me this site:

http://www.mrmcgroovys.com/ideas.htm

dm
dharmamama is offline  
#127 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 10:20 AM
 
ZanZansMommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Where the watermelons grow!
Posts: 1,315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommy&Will View Post
Okay, so my mama bear is coming out now too.

I agree with this - being mean and not respecting other people's bodies and wishes is NOT a part of being a boy.

But when you see boys getting pressured to calm down - what is really happening is that people (and quite frankly its usually us females!) are pushing the boys to act more like girls. To act like we do. To reason and expend their emotions in the same we (females) do. And when they don't "calm down," and act how we do we push them into retaliation. (And I'm speaking from experience here. I'm still learning to relate to my little boys.)

(Many) boys are born aggressive. Its one reason the human race survived.
Aggressive does not have to mean violent. Culture has taught (many) boys to be violent. We need to help them find ways to release their energy in ways that their genes and brains are hard wired.

Quoting from Michael Gurian's book The Wonder of Boys,
10 Ways to Love A Boy you must provide:

1. nurturing and parents/caregivers
2. a clan or a tribe
3. spiritual life
4. important work
5. mentors and role models
6. to know the rules
7. to learn how to lead, how to follow
8. an adventure, and a best friend to have it with
9. lots of games
10. an important role in life.

It seems to me this "dangerous" book provides a lot of these goals.
(bolding is mine) Bingo Mama. You are SO right on. raising Cain is another book that gives us women a boys perspective.

Lola , loving my DH, Mama to & we &
ZanZansMommy is offline  
#128 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 10:22 AM
 
orangefoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oxfordshire UK
Posts: 3,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have a book called Every Girl's Handbook which I was given as a gift back i the 80s. It has facts and figures about sport, mountains, populations, boiling points of chemicals, the periodic table, how to look after your skin with home made potions, organising your bedroom and building screens or shelving, sewing simple garments and accessories, zodiac compatability,famous women in history and much more.

As an 11 yo I read it avidly and my boys have read it more recently. The last time we used it was to test Benfords's Law after hearing about it on a radio programme.

Lots of books have unappealing titles but you shouldn't always judge a book by its cover
orangefoot is offline  
#129 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 12:37 PM
 
chfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: in a red state
Posts: 4,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
With absolutely no snark intended, can someone please tell me how the goals of raising a girl differ from this?

"Quoting from Michael Gurian's book The Wonder of Boys,
10 Ways to Love A Boy you must provide:

1. nurturing and parents/caregivers
2. a clan or a tribe
3. spiritual life
4. important work
5. mentors and role models
6. to know the rules
7. to learn how to lead, how to follow
8. an adventure, and a best friend to have it with
9. lots of games
10. an important role in life."
chfriend is offline  
#130 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 12:51 PM
 
sadie_sabot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: dystopia
Posts: 5,331
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
With absolutely no snark intended, can someone please tell me how the goals of raising a girl differ from this?

"Quoting from Michael Gurian's book The Wonder of Boys,
10 Ways to Love A Boy you must provide:

1. nurturing and parents/caregivers
2. a clan or a tribe
3. spiritual life
4. important work
5. mentors and role models
6. to know the rules
7. to learn how to lead, how to follow
8. an adventure, and a best friend to have it with
9. lots of games
10. an important role in life."

For reals! all kids need those things, plus an acknowledgement and acceptance of who they are...which in an ideal world would mean things like accepting that some kids like to be all about gross motor activities while some kids like to read alone and other kids like tea parties.

I just wanted to put out there two things.

One is that while I object ot the title, I'm not actually that heated up about it; I'm participating in the conversation mainly because a) I just got the book fo rmy kid and b) I am interested in conversations about gender and how we deal with gender norms and expectations (as well as variances) with our kids.

secondly I'm the mama of a girl and am not familiar with all of this stuff folks are saying about how boys are shortchanged. I believe that if any gender is oppressed or shortchanged it affects all of us; so I'll try to keep my eyes and ears open and learn more. The broader society is still heavily skewed toward men (check out the earnings comparisons, for example) so I'm really curious about this; maybe I'll try to read raising cain.
sadie_sabot is offline  
#131 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 01:01 PM
 
chfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: in a red state
Posts: 4,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And I have to say that my experience is the opposite of eilowny's. I have a happy, loud, sensory seeking 7 year old girl. She can be doing the *exact same thing* as boys in play and be called down by adults, while they admire the spunk of the boys and talk endlessly about how gender difference are inherent.

My 2 year old girls were expected to give ground on the playground if the boys wanted to play where they were.

It starts really early and I don't think the moms of boys realize how much they expect girls to move over and not make trouble.
chfriend is offline  
#132 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 01:05 PM
 
Daffodil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,606
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
I keep reading these posts and thinking, "Aaaah! No matter what anyone says, they just don't get it!" And I'm pretty sure people on the other side are thinking the same thing about posts like mine.

So let me see if I at least get what the people who don't mind the book title are saying. I think it's something like this:

The belief that there are no important, inborn differences between boys and girls, combined with the push to help girls feel better about themselves, have created a society where too many people see traditionally "girl" traits and behaviors as better than traditionally "boy" ones - AND where people think that everyone, boy or girl, can and should adopt those "girl" traits. But a lot of kids have a hard time acting as calm and quiet and cautious and polite as everyone thinks they should. And because so many of those kids who can't meet society's new expectations are boys, boys are getting a bad reputation, and are now more likely to feel bad about themselves than girls are. So anything that gives the message, "Boys are cool! And it's perfectly normal and healthy for them to be wild and reckless sometimes!" is sorely needed.

Did I get that right?
Daffodil is online now  
#133 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 01:30 PM
 
chfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: in a red state
Posts: 4,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post
So anything that gives the message, "Boys are cool! And it's perfectly normal and healthy for them to be wild and reckless sometimes!" is sorely needed.
If the message was "Kids are cool! And it's perfectly normal and healthy for them to be wilde and reckless sometimes! "I would be beside myself with excitement.

Because if you think it's bad for boys who get wild with joy at time, please watch what happens to girls who are. It ain't pretty.

I'm all for more wild and creative play amongst kids. With a large dose of inclusiveness and acceptance of individual differences thrown in.
chfriend is offline  
#134 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 01:32 PM
 
Mommy&Will's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Formerly wishing I was there
Posts: 2,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
With absolutely no snark intended, can someone please tell me how the goals of raising a girl differ from this?

"Quoting from Michael Gurian's book The Wonder of Boys,
10 Ways to Love A Boy you must provide:

1. nurturing and parents/caregivers
2. a clan or a tribe
3. spiritual life
4. important work
5. mentors and role models
6. to know the rules
7. to learn how to lead, how to follow
8. an adventure, and a best friend to have it with
9. lots of games
10. an important role in life."

I was waiting for someone to say this.

The thing is that no one ever said it is different for girls. There was never any statement that said "this is only the way it is for boys and not girls." I did not provide this (nor did the author write the list) so that girls can be excluded. Its a book about boys and what they need. Its just that when I read about the Dangerous book, this list popped into my head.

However, I have no problem with identifiying boys and girls as different from each other. They are! There is physical eveidence of this, people! By doing so I am not saying one is better than the other. I don't harp on it ("Oh, Johnny only girls wear pink." That is cultural socialization and just stupid) but I am realizing boys have more of something that changes everything: testosterone! I don't believe that Nurture overrules all of Nature. I don't believe Nature overrules all of Nurture.

In fact, I am being humbled by my boys and realizing how critical of the male culture I really was.
Mommy&Will is offline  
#135 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 01:44 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
It starts really early and I don't think the moms of boys realize how much they expect girls to move over and not make trouble.
: Totally. and aggressive, bullying behaviour that obviously elicits fear from my girl child is ignored. Coz after all, boys will be boys and alla that... :

I am not sure where I stand on the essential traits vs. nurture argument. I have a friend studying anthropology who asserts that there is so much cross cultural variance that it seems to be almost *all* nurture. She has a boy and girl child and has noticed very similar behaviour and personality traits between her children.

I'm not sure. I definitely think the "boys will be boys" essentialist argument is taken waaay too far, and I notice very rigid gender roles applied to both boy and girl children by adults with that philosophy in mind. I think a lot more of it is nurture than most of us believe.

My daughter's father believes that boys are naturally aggressive, and that this trait needs to be channelled well. He believes in a fair amount of essentiality, although he definitely also thinks that socialization is far under-recognized.

Knowing so many trans people who just felt like they were in the 'wrong' body from an early age, for me lends credence to some gender essentiality. And trans guys who start taking testosterone report an increase in libido, and in aggression. Not sure...

I would love to see boys as well as girls protected from this one dimensional gender role indoctrination... a la princesses and superheroes/pretty and vulnerable vs always strong and aggressive. I think that sucks, I have worked not to instill it with my daughter and should I have a son I will protect him from it equally. It denies children, and therefore adults, their full personhood, the range of humanity that comprises their souls. And I think it breeds much more animosity and violence than we realize.
thismama is offline  
#136 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 01:52 PM
 
chfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: in a red state
Posts: 4,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Testosterone has been completely mis-represented:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...gewanted=print

Are they really so different?

http://www.boston.com/news/education...e_myth/?page=1

I think these stories that we are telling ourselves about how boys and girls/men and women are different species are based on bad science and don't serve us.

ETA: thismama and I cross-posted
chfriend is offline  
#137 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 02:00 PM
 
Daffodil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,606
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommy&Will View Post
The thing is that no one ever said it is different for girls. There was never any statement that said "this is only the way it is for boys and not girls." I did not provide this (nor did the author write the list) so that girls can be excluded. Its a book about boys and what they need.
But there would be no point in writing a book just about boys (not all kids) unless there was something different about their needs. Gurian doesn't say girls don't need any of those things, but he clearly believes they don't need all of them as much as boys do - and that there are other needs that are more important for girls. (I've read both The Wonder of Girls and The Wonder of Boys, and found them annoying.)
Daffodil is online now  
#138 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 02:27 PM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
I think these stories that we are telling ourselves about how boys and girls/men and women are different species are based on bad science and don't serve us.
I don't think they're different species, I just feel pretty strongly that anyone who asserts that all prepubescent children are gender neutral/asexual is... perhaps a little delusional. It's so difficult to explain, and again I know I believed that kids were born kind of "blank" and tended to respond to environmental inputs rather than some kind of hard-wiring before I had a son. While he is often mistaken for a girl even with a buzz cut (big green eyes, long lashes, dimples, and, well, all his favorite clothing is pink) his *behavior* has always been decidedly masculine. Even his nurturing behaviors are more masculine than feminine-- he's nursed a few trucks and airplanes in his time, but while he'd play gently with a baby he would bring it to me when it was hungry, and ask me to nurse it. He can be very loving and gentle, but in a decidedly masculine way. It's an odd thing to see, but everyone who's ever watched him on the playground dressed head to foot in pink and sparkles has to agree that he's the most masculine child they've ever seen with long hair and covered in pink glitter. Even swinging a stick around, BooBah doesn't come off as masculine (she's far more gender neutral than her brother).

Hm. Perhaps it all means that I am not a terribly feminine woman... I don't know, though. I've got a sister who is even less feminine than I in most respects, and her older daughters both went through seriously girly stages-- refusing to wear pants (my sister NEVER wears dresses; I honestly can't recall the last time she did), wanting pretty hairstyles, nail polish and makeup (things that my sister certainly wasn't doing as a 19 year old tomboy)... I thinki it just varies so much from child to child. The only thing that I can say with any certainty is that there are certainly boys who are born to be boys, and girls who are born to be girls, and and everything in between. It'd be disingenuous of me not to accept that, and to dismiss Bean's behaviors as something he was "taught." I can't think where he would have learned it-- mike is wired like a man but his behavior is, for the most part, neutral. He's nowhere near as overtly masculine as BeanBean, and he never has been.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#139 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 02:47 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Going through a 'girly' stage is not evidence of essentiality of gender. My daughter is going through a girly stage and I think it is very much about identity, and expressing it through the ways that are culturally determined, yk? Like, it is important to her that she belongs to a tribe of girls and women. And the way she has learned that girls and women behave is xyz. So... she experiments with doing xyz (pink, pretty stuff). That does not mean she is *essentially* drawn to those things. On the contrary, I believe I have seen first hand how she has been culturally indoctrinated into making those connections.

On the 'where do they learn it' - EVERYWHERE. Our family is about as gender aberrant as you can get (queer mama, queer father, lots of butch women around). But they pick it up from other children, from media, from toy marketing, etc etc. It is pervasive, so much so that we often don't even see it and then we wonder where they would have learned that.

With my daughter she has been misperceived as a boy lately a lot, because she has short hair and does not wear an abundance of pink. I think she has picked up the semi-hostility in the voices of children and adults who cannot denote her gender. And she is sick of having to explain who and what she is. So she is conforming more to gender norms. That is not essential behaviour, but absolutely a response to cultural messages.
thismama is offline  
#140 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 03:10 PM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
On the 'where do they learn it' - EVERYWHERE. Our family is about as gender aberrant as you can get (queer mama, queer father, lots of butch women around). But they pick it up from other children, from media, from toy marketing, etc etc. It is pervasive, so much so that we often don't even see it and then we wonder where they would have learned that.
Bean doesn't watch a heck of a lot of television, and his favorite movie is The Secret Garden.. has been for a long time. Bean's also a 'leader' on the playground-- in general, he is the child to whom other children try to conform, rather than vice-versa.

I'm not saying that there's no environmental input, but I really believe that there is a great deal that's just inborn.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#141 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 03:16 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy View Post
Bean doesn't watch a heck of a lot of television, and his favorite movie is The Secret Garden.. has been for a long time. Bean's also a 'leader' on the playground-- in general, he is the child to whom other children try to conform, rather than vice-versa.

I'm not saying that there's no environmental input, but I really believe that there is a great deal that's just inborn.
I think you are grossly underestimating the pervasiveness of gender messages. Our children IME cannot be isolated from them, no matter how hard we try. Your eldest goes to school, right? Bingo. **Everywhere** at school. It doesn't matter if he is more 'leader' than follower or what, the messages surround children and adults, and it is part of our nature as social creatures to read and take in nuances about cultural mores.

There is a really good book, a journal written by a German mother, about all the gender messages she noticed her daughter receiving from birth to age 3. I just did a search for it in my local library's catalogue, as that is where I found it initially, but I had no luck. Anyone know this book? I'm going to try to think of the title.
thismama is offline  
#142 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 03:21 PM
Dar
 
Dar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 11,448
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alima View Post
When I first bought the book for ds (we're Canadian so got the British edition years ago), I explained to him that it's not The Dangerous Book for Boys, it's the Dangerous Book FOR Boys, because any boy like him would hurt himself pretty quickly with the knowledge therein, but girls would be too smart to do stupid things
Because that's the stereotype we have of girls - they're the "smart" ones, which means they don't go off and have adventures and get wet or lost or break something - that's for the boys to do. When Rain was 7 or so she was paddleboating around a lagoon with a friend and wound up in the water, over where we couldn't see her - I think she was reaching to pick some berries and the boat tipped. Her friend's mother just couldn't stop talking about it - but her younger son fell into the lagoon at least once a week, somehow or other, and it wasn't an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy View Post
Bean's also a 'leader' on the playground-- in general, he is the child to whom other children try to conform, rather than vice-versa.

I'm not saying that there's no environmental input, but I really believe that there is a great deal that's just inborn.
When parents see a boy like that on the playground, they say he's a "leader." When they see a girl like that, they say she's "bossy."

Dar

 
fambedsingle1.gifSingle mom to Rain (1/93) , grad student, and world traveler earth.gif


  

Dar is offline  
#143 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 05:16 PM
 
skaterbabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Can someone please explain to me why it is desirable that ANYONE behave in a gender-neutral fashion? And what (or who) dictates "gender-neutrality" anyway?


And why are traditionally girl personality traits thought of as gender-neutral?
skaterbabs is offline  
#144 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 05:34 PM
 
Lillian J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just racing through on my way to prepare a potluck dish for tonight, but it occurs to me that before I had a child, I thought I knew a whole lot about being a parent; before I homeschooled, I thought I knew a whole lot about homeschooling - in both cases, I found out I knew very little. I don't think moms of just daughters or moms of just boys can really know all that much about the challenges faced by the children of the opposite sex in today's world. It's different for every generation, and being up close and personal brings some surprises that may not be in tune with our most educated assumptions. - Lillian
Lillian J is offline  
#145 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 05:42 PM
 
Mom4tot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pemberley
Posts: 15,586
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Lillian, I know I found that to be true. Having both a girl and a boy (and a boy second!) I realized there were some innate differences. It doesn't mean my son isn't compassionate or sweet or that my dd isn't physical or curious, they are both alll of these things. I have seen differences all along, it's just subtle. Other people attribute different things to birth order. I don't know why it is harmful to play to those differences once in awhile? No one is saying "Boys have to be this way" or "Girls have to be that way". I think it is each parents responsibility to address those messages however they come up.

~Joan, Happy mom to 2 beautiful kiddos, one new puppy and 2 lovely felines
Mom4tot is offline  
#146 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 05:46 PM
 
momo7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: hither, thither, and yon
Posts: 1,116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurgundyElephant View Post
What's the girl one going to include? How to braid hair in six different ways? How to write a secret note in code so your crush won't see it? How to skip rope?

Stuff like this makes me *crazy*. No offense to you - I know you said it irritates you as well, but why does it have to be gender specific??? My daughters would like to learn how to play rugby and tie different kinds of knots but there is no way I would purchase a book for them that says on the front it is for boys.
I have the "boy" book for one of my sons...I just saw this book the other night, (the one for girls anyway) and its not like that at all. Pick up a copy and you might be pleasantly surprised. I think "boy" books and "girl" are great. I mean we ARE different. It doesn't mean one book is better than the other simply because they are written for the two different types of human beings.

 

 

Crazy mom of 9. grouphug.gif  A wife to one.  flowersforyou.gif

 

 

-Life is a long lesson in humility.-

 

James M. Barrie

momo7 is offline  
#147 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 09:00 PM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I think you are grossly underestimating the pervasiveness of gender messages. Our children IME cannot be isolated from them, no matter how hard we try. Your eldest goes to school, right? Bingo. **Everywhere** at school. It doesn't matter if he is more 'leader' than follower or what, the messages surround children and adults, and it is part of our nature as social creatures to read and take in nuances about cultural mores.
He's in school, but to say he "goes to school" isn't quite accurate; Bean's enrolled in a cyber charter school. He only sees classmates every two weeks or so, and they're a peculiar subset of children.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#148 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 09:16 PM
 
boatbaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Afloat
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just want to say... Karen, I think I love you. You so eloquently stated so many things that have been swirling through my innards since I had a son, but could never put my finger on, let alone any articulate words.

Thank you...!





p.s. I plan on getting both books.

Mama to Zach 6-18-04 & Naia 10-13-10 Partner to the sweetest DH. Loving our life afloat. TV Free!
boatbaby is offline  
#149 of 216 Old 11-03-2007, 11:53 PM
 
chfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: in a red state
Posts: 4,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

When parents see a boy like that on the playground, they say he's a "leader." When they see a girl like that, they say she's "bossy."

Dar
:
chfriend is offline  
#150 of 216 Old 11-04-2007, 04:30 AM
 
Lillian J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
With absolutely no snark intended, can someone please tell me how the goals of raising a girl differ from this?

"Quoting from Michael Gurian's book The Wonder of Boys,
10 Ways to Love A Boy you must provide:

1. nurturing and parents/caregivers
2. a clan or a tribe
3. spiritual life
4. important work
5. mentors and role models
6. to know the rules
7. to learn how to lead, how to follow
8. an adventure, and a best friend to have it with
9. lots of games
10. an important role in life."
I think that's the point - traditionally, boys have not necessarily been raised with all this, especially the "nurturing" part. This list just encourages people to pay a little more attention to some of the more important needs. - Lillian
Lillian J is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off