Cable TV's billion channels & consensual living - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shroomama View Post
have dvr or Tivo. The extra expense to have crap piped into my house...? Somehow not justifiable to me. If more of it were worthwhile, I might think about it. JMHO.

I was really hoping we could avoid this 'tude and the snotty value judements as we talked about consensual living and a billion channels. Food Network is not crap. So there. :heart.

Anyway, we're getting it.
UUMom is offline  
#32 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 01:02 PM
 
MaShroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: definitely to the left
Posts: 1,584
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay. I'll be sure to be more clear when it's 3:24 in the morning... Food Network good. A lot of other stuff that has little, if any, redeeming value, maybe not so much. Consensual living or not, there is just so much on cable that reflects a society and values that are, to me, kind of sad or warped or whatever. There are enough bad things in the world, watching things that leave me with an empty, upset, sad, or rotten feeling just aren't for me. I've found that there is enough of it on network tv. Maybe I just don't have the armor I should to let it roll off... That's what I meant, do you disagree?

Snotty value judgements... That is honestly the first time in my LIFE that anyone has ever said that to me. I need to go have some coffee. And take my 'tude with me.
MaShroom is offline  
#33 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 01:14 PM
 
midwestmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,008
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We have also had it and not had it. I found that even though we were not huge tv watchers, too much of our family time and productive time was sucked up by it, so we don't have it at all any more. It did make a huge pos difference in our lives. I also love food network and if I could just get 2-4 channels, we would probably do that and get food network, discovery, history channel and animal planet, but overall not worth it for us.....

ETA-I got what you meant shroomama. I am in agreement with your 'tudeless message

mama to Joshua (9), Lily (8), Jude (6) and Ava (6)

midwestmom is offline  
#34 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 01:38 PM
 
MaShroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: definitely to the left
Posts: 1,584
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwestmom View Post
We have also had it and not had it. I found that even though we were not huge tv watchers, too much of our family time and productive time was sucked up by it, so we don't have it at all any more. It did make a huge pos difference in our lives. I also love food network and if I could just get 2-4 channels, we would probably do that and get food network, discovery, history channel and animal planet, but overall not worth it for us.....

ETA-I got what you meant shroomama. I am in agreement with your 'tudeless message
Thanks. My sentences get too short that late at night. Thoughts aren't conveyed the way they should be. And yeah, what you said.

Um, I was really guilty of it eating my time too. But when Nip/Tuck is on and you don't have dvr... Sorry, Nip/Tuck wins, the dishes don't get done and life falls apart.
MaShroom is offline  
#35 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shroomama View Post
Okay. I'll be sure to be more clear when it's 3:24 in the morning... Food Network good. A lot of other stuff that has little, if any, redeeming value, maybe not so much. Consensual living or not, there is just so much on cable that reflects a society and values that are, to me, kind of sad or warped or whatever. There are enough bad things in the world, watching things that leave me with an empty, upset, sad, or rotten feeling just aren't for me. I've found that there is enough of it on network tv. Maybe I just don't have the armor I should to let it roll off... That's what I meant, do you disagree?

Snotty value judgements... That is honestly the first time in my LIFE that anyone has ever said that to me. I need to go have some coffee. And take my 'tude with me.

: Now now. I am sure you are a wonderful, open person. This thread was about consensual living and a billion channels. If I had asked folks opinions on whether they considered The Food Network or Steven Colbert crap or worth the price of cable, then you'd be golden. : Just saying don't- get- cable-I think- tv -is -crap is for another thread...it sounded snotty given my question. It goes without saying that there is plenty of crap on TV. Although one person's crap is another person's compost, am I right?

Is Food Netwrok and Nigella Lawson crap? Or Mythbusters, or The History Channel? Or Desperate Housewives? (I'm kidding on that-- I've never seen it, so I don't know if it is crap or not).

Of course, I also don't mind a little crap here and there. I've spent a few too many nights lately huddled under a quilt, drinking peppermind tea, and watching The Santa Clause 3 (The line "A woman gives him a baby" makes me cry, so you know *my* crap meter is off) with my kids to judge how other people like to spend some winter evenings.

And remember, I am part of the tiny minority MDC group who would not toss a Brats doll in the garbage if my kid wanted it. I'm nobody whose comments you need to worry about. (Is about a preposition?) Peace and love and all good things to you, girl. I mean that. :
UUMom is offline  
#36 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shroomama View Post
Thanks. My sentences get too short that late at night. Thoughts aren't conveyed the way they should be. And yeah, what you said.

Um, I was really guilty of it eating my time too. But when Nip/Tuck is on and you don't have dvr... Sorry, Nip/Tuck wins, the dishes don't get done and life falls apart.
lol

Ok, but see? Why can't nip/tuck be a pleasure? Just enjoy nip/tuck, yk? Why beat yourself over it? WHy is there so much guilt involved in a litte R & R?
UUMom is offline  
#37 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwestmom View Post
We have also had it and not had it. I found that even though we were not huge tv watchers, too much of our family time and productive time was sucked up by it, so we don't have it at all any more. It did make a huge pos difference in our lives. I also love food network and if I could just get 2-4 channels, we would probably do that and get food network, discovery, history channel and animal planet, but overall not worth it for us.....

ETA-I got what you meant shroomama. I am in agreement with your 'tudeless message
Ok. Here I go again. Why do people let things like TV control them, and why the guilt about watching it? I have Netflix and so billions of recorded things at my fingertips. I don't choose TV over feeding the children. I don't choose TV over sledding in the snow or having sex with my dh. (Sometimes I've chosen MDC over playing CandyLand, I admit). Why is mere availability such a problem?

My question is about availability and Consensual Living. Is the 'mere availability' a problem. The posters I most often relate to, parenting style -wise, say it's not been a problem. But I respect other posters as well.

I am going to start a different thread asking people who do have a problem with TV and thier children to share there. I would really like to speparate these things out.

I am not asking if people think TV is crap.
UUMom is offline  
#38 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 02:09 PM
 
WuWei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the moment
Posts: 11,492
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
I'm nobody whose comments you need to worry about. (Is about a preposition?)
Yes, ending a sentence with a preposition might get you booted from Learning at Home and Beyond.

ETA: I don't believe we can control the tangents and opposing opinions on a thread. Once a thread is posted, it is not "owned" by the OP. Another's experience could influence or impact your decision making considerations. I'd find them information that one could regard or consider, or not. Others' opinions certainly do not impose upon another poster to act. We are all apt to share our alternative opinions on a public forum, aren't we?




Pat

I have a blog.
WuWei is offline  
#39 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 02:16 PM
 
MaShroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: definitely to the left
Posts: 1,584
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Unfortunately, I do have a problem with it. Especially in the middle of winter. I get depressed and sit in front of the TV, letting everything else go to h-e double hockey sticks. It's an escape that is too readily available. And if I had a billion channels... That would just be bad.
MaShroom is offline  
#40 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 02:21 PM
 
kamilla626's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,510
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We are not 100% Consensual Living, but we do lean toward "freedom of informed decision making" for most things. We don't limit TV much at all with 4.5 yr. old dd. If she wants to watch TV while dh is watching something creepy on SciFi, she'll ask him to change the channel so she doesn't have to look at all the monsters.

We have a LOT of conversations about how cartoons are made (i.e. drawings with voices of actors added), the concept of fiction vs. non-fiction, the idea that it's an actor's "job" to pretend to be sad, hurt, etc. and that when the "TV show makers" are done making the show, the actor goes home, eats dinner, maybe spends time with his/her family, etc.

If dd is watching Spongebob and "Drake & Josh" comes on afterward (which is more geared toward tweens) she'll say, "Can you change the channel? I don't think this is appropriate for me!"

FTR, we didn't make a black and white rule about what is "appropriate". She decided for herself that she doesn't like explosions, bleeding, yelling, or monsters. She also really doesn't like it when she hears jokes that she doesn't "get", so she doesn't like most sitcoms that are designed for older kids or adults.

She does like to watch Man Vs. Wild, How It's Made, Pet Star, Cleaning House and lots of cartoons. We've found that she's never been really "addicted" to TV. It's available when she wants it, just like the books that we have in the house, but I think because she knows that it IS so available, and fairly unlimited, she doesn't seem driven to watch as much as possible, as late at night as possible, as often as possible, etc.

The materialism does get to me sometimes, but when she asks for things she sees on TV we try to talk about why she feels it's important to have it. Sometimes it's really reasonable; it's a toy we know she'd like, it's not really expensive, it's something I can find second-hand, etc. We also try to talk (in 4 yr. old terms) about how every time we buy a new toy, some of our money goes to the factory that makes the toys. "We try to make sure our money doesn't go to factories where they make children work, or where the bosses are mean and don't let the workers eat lunch", etc. Now, when she has a new toy, she'll ask, "Do you think this was made by a man or a woman? Do you think they had a nice boss? Do you think they got paid enough money when they made the toy? Do you think the factory is a good job for them?"
kamilla626 is offline  
#41 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Yes, ending a sentence with a preposition might get you booted from Learning at Home and Beyond.

ETA: I don't believe we can control the tangents and opposing opinions on a thread. Once a thread is posted, it is not "owned" by the OP. Another's experience could influence or impact your decision making considerations. I'd find them information that one could regard or consider, or not. Others' opinions certainly do not impose upon another poster to act. We are all apt to share our alternative opinions on a public forum, aren't we?




Pat
I hear you. But sometimes it does take away from the point of the thread. Imo.
UUMom is offline  
#42 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamilla626 View Post
We are not 100% Consensual Living, but we do lean toward "freedom of informed decision making" for most things. We don't limit TV much at all with 4.5 yr. old dd. If she wants to watch TV while dh is watching something creepy on SciFi, she'll ask him to change the channel so she doesn't have to look at all the monsters.

We have a LOT of conversations about how cartoons are made (i.e. drawings with voices of actors added), the concept of fiction vs. non-fiction, the idea that it's an actor's "job" to pretend to be sad, hurt, etc. and that when the "TV show makers" are done making the show, the actor goes home, eats dinner, maybe spends time with his/her family, etc.

If dd is watching Spongebob and "Drake & Josh" comes on afterward (which is more geared toward tweens) she'll say, "Can you change the channel? I don't think this is appropriate for me!"

My 8 yr old, whose TV I have only restricted by lack of cable, is the same way. She will not watch anything she doesn't think works for her. She is very discerning. She is also one who still has Halloween candy left over and who says no to ice cream often. "No, I am already full". She also had a two items Christmas list. On Christmas Day she said, sort of surprised, " I got things I didn't even ask for, but I like them".

It's interesting the variety of personalities in the world. lol
UUMom is offline  
#43 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 02:33 PM
 
zeldamomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,226
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
All in all, I think having our billion channels via satellite *does* work for us, but there is one problem we're dealing with at the moment. We have a nasty bug running through the house, and I am fine with a sick kid vegging in front of the TV (since it's about all they can do, and encourages them to lie down and get the rest they need). However, the first one to get the bug, who is now completely healthy, is needing a little help falling all out of the habit of watching TV all day, despite the fact that its making her unbearably cranky. I don't think it's a tv issue specifically, more about getting back into balance and a good routine, but if we didn't have a billion channels, she'd be wanting to spend all day some other way (which might or might not be any better). Learning to manage these things as a kid is a good thing, I think.

ZM
zeldamomma is offline  
#44 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeldamomma View Post
other way (which might or might not be any better). Learning to manage these things as a kid is a good thing, I think.

ZM
I think that, too! My two middle children got several new DS games for Christmas and for the first day of getting them, they were bleary -eyed. My 14 yr old said late Christmas day "I have a wicked headache" and shut it off.

I am going to make a little leap here-- related but not totally. Hang with me for a minute. I was talking to a therapist (a person I find compassionate and respectful) recently at a party, and she suggested that resistance to tasks (a few of us were talking about our teens in school and the homework issue we face at times) is not abnormal or wrong, it just is. Certain things, like homework, if our child chooses school and we have faith the program makes sense, which mine does, just have to get done. We figure out a way to get these things done, like mopping up vomit from the dog, even when we do not want to, and do them. Or, consequently, some folks might need a plan to stop watching TV or typing on the computer when it stops feeling satisfying. Having a plan is not wrong. Resisting is natural.

A child complaining or 'resisting' it really being his turn to unload the dishwasher, or me not wanting to go out and pick up a child at a hsing event that is 20 minutes away-- is fine. My point being that certain things aren't bad-- transitioning from a lot of TV back to your normal pattern of viewing is just something you do. Things in motion, stay in motion and all that.

Life is life, certain things happen and it's fine and you go on. We constantly re-evaluate what works for us. I think letting kids experience normal reactions, normal events of physics 'Your body wants to stay sitting here because it's stitting here. You actually have to move to get moving' etc are all really great, normal human lessons.
UUMom is offline  
#45 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 02:57 PM
 
wonderwahine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: wi fi didnt do it!
Posts: 17,724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I agree, I had unlimited access to a tv as a kid, i never blobed in front of it all the time, and as an adult i still dont.
wonderwahine is offline  
#46 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 03:18 PM
 
melissel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,492
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Yes, ending a sentence with a preposition might get you booted from Learning at Home and Beyond.
Actually, this is no longer considered unacceptable--which is not to say I don't try to change it in everything I edit!

I guess it does really depend on your kids. My five-year-old won't walk away from the TV. She'll watch anything that happens to be on it. The other day while she was sick I was sitting in bed with her while she was watching...something about Billy and Mandy?...on the Cartoon Network. It looked harmless enough at first. But OMG. It was actually making me sick to my stomach to hear these characters scream at each other! I mentioned a little bit about how they were talking to each other, and could you imagine if we talked to each other that way? She was silent, wide-eyed and open-mouthed. Finally, I said I was going to change it, because I just couldn't listen to them talk to each other that way, it was bothering me. She was like, OK. And then made a negative remark about what they were saying. But she doesn't seem to get that she can turn it off. Or maybe because it was the only kids' show we could find and she didn't want to just turn it off, she'd rather sit there and watch something awful.

We did go through a phase where I told her she was in charge of her TV viewing, and that she could decide when to turn it off and what to watch. She literally watched 7-8 hours of TV a day most days and, with few exceptions, chose TV over going out to the park or to visit friends or go to the grocery store with me. Finally I couldn't take it anymore and we had to cut back again.

For us, in our house, TV causes conflict in so many ways. For obvious reasons, with the kids. On a more subtle level, between DH and me. I can't sit and watch TV with him because he flipflipflipflips. Next thing you know, I've seen enough of four shows to want to know what happens in all of them, and he moves on to something else. Or I'm frustrated because I really wanted to watch Nip/Tuck (which, I admit, is crap...delicious, delicious crap!) but I had to spend an hour getting the little one to bed, while he got to watch the whole thing. Or instead of helping me clean up the house at night after the kids go to bed, his arse is glued to the couch, watching poker, Kill Bill, infomercials, and Ninja Warrior all at once. Or after everyone goes to sleep, I sit down to work, but I don't really want to work (I hate my job and the fact that I have to work, especially at 1 a.m.), so I put on the TV as "background" and next thing I know, it's 4 a.m. and I've just watched three episodes of Alias and gotten almost no work done.

I'm sure lots of people have more self-control than we do. I don't know. But I do know that in our house, TV is insidious. It fills in all the little spaces in our lives, and creeps into everything we do. Maybe a DVR would help that? We keep meaning to get one. But I also feel like a DVR would be even more pressure, because DH gets edgy when we have Netflix videos sitting in our bookshelf going unwatched. As it is now, if we miss something we "wanted" to watch, it's gone, and we don't get sucked into it. If we DVR everything we "want" to watch, I wonder if we'd end up watching even more. Hmmm...

Those are my thoughts on it. Hopefully your family will have a better dynamic with the thing!

Melissa, a homeschooling, caffix.gif-guzzling, SAHM of two: reading.gif (11) and joy.gif(8)
melissel is offline  
#47 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 03:22 PM
 
melissel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,492
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
I agree, I had unlimited access to a tv as a kid, i never blobed in front of it all the time, and as an adult i still dont.
I had unlimited access as a kid, and I DID watch it every chance I get, and it still has the power to suck me in. I love TV. Unfortunately, its pull over me affects the rest of my life.

Melissa, a homeschooling, caffix.gif-guzzling, SAHM of two: reading.gif (11) and joy.gif(8)
melissel is offline  
#48 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 03:49 PM
 
Peppermint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: work-in-progress
Posts: 5,658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post
we don't watch any more tv than we did before... we just watch different tv.
Same here

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
Peppermint is offline  
#49 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 04:38 PM
 
midwestmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,008
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
Ok. Here I go again. Why do people let things like TV control them, and why the guilt about watching it? I have Netflix and so billions of recorded things at my fingertips. I don't choose TV over feeding the children. I don't choose TV over sledding in the snow or having sex with my dh. (Sometimes I've chosen MDC over playing CandyLand, I admit). Why is mere availability such a problem?

My question is about availability and Consensual Living. Is the 'mere availability' a problem. The posters I most often relate to, parenting style -wise, say it's not been a problem. But I respect other posters as well.

I am going to start a different thread asking people who do have a problem with TV and thier children to share there. I would really like to speparate these things out.

I am not asking if people think TV is crap.
You obviously missed my point too. We are pretty consensual here and tv didn't work well for us, so I thought I would briefly state that. It wasn't controlling our lives, but the mere availability was becoming a problem for us. We made the decision as a family (kids included) that we had better things to do.

mama to Joshua (9), Lily (8), Jude (6) and Ava (6)

midwestmom is offline  
#50 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shroomama View Post
Unfortunately, I do have a problem with it. Especially in the middle of winter. I get depressed and sit in front of the TV, letting everything else go to h-e double hockey sticks. It's an escape that is too readily available. And if I had a billion channels... That would just be bad.
Fair enough. My response to your first post also reads fairly cranky-- which is was not than I was feeling when I typed it. I'll work on that.
UUMom is offline  
#51 of 51 Old 12-28-2007, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwestmom View Post
You obviously missed my point too. We are pretty consensual here and tv didn't work well for us, so I thought I would briefly state that. It wasn't controlling our lives, but the mere availability was becoming a problem for us. We made the decision as a family (kids included) that we had better things to do.
Thank you for clarifying. I do hope that when we get it hooked up, we'll still be able to make good choices about the use of our time. Helping each other understand our needs is a lot easier to do than raise of family in a tent in Darfur. Right now, I feel so shallow thinking this cable thing is our biggest problem-- I hate to sound so petty: "Should we get cable or not" when other people are thinking about how to keep their kids alive one more night.

I do think the experiences of families here will be of benefit to us.
UUMom is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off