Consensual Living Tribe - Page 13 - Mothering Forums
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#361 of 506 Old 04-05-2007, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I call it the Toddler Rule: If you offer something more interesting, they release what they are "holding" in their hand (figuratively, in this situation). So, I'd offer MORE options which are preferable to both of you. (not just preferable to one of you, mama ) And then, release your need to control the how. Be open to the abundant alternatives to present themselves. Sounding familiar? :

Here is one:

I have the perfect recipe. A friend just created it. Wheat free, sugar free, egg free. With dark chocolate 60% Giradelli chips. It is naturally sweet, soft, and decadently sinless.

1 cup raisins
1 cup water
soak overnight at room temperature, then puree.

Add 1/4 cup oil and mix well.

In a bowl mix well:
1 cup oat flour (you can make your own flour by finely grating oat meal)
1 cup oat meal
1/2 tsp baking soda
3/4 tsp cinnamon
3/4 cup dark chocolate chips
(walnuts optional)

Stir wet ingredients in until just mixed.

Spoon onto ungreased cookie sheet.
Bake 11-15 minutes, at 375 degrees.
(you are just drying them out, the larger ones take longer. I like
them smaller, personally.)

Sinless delight.

(occasionally, I'll add some egg whites or protein powder for added protein)

Pat

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#362 of 506 Old 04-05-2007, 04:40 PM
 
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That recipe sounds so yummy, Pat!

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
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#363 of 506 Old 04-05-2007, 05:56 PM
 
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I tend to be a consentual living type from the get go (maybe it was all of that Quaker meeting my parents dragged us to...). I agree that it is MUCH easier to be consensus based with my child than my husband. And I concur on the extreme frustration of dealing with my husbands desire to be more authoritative and ultimatum giving. I don't like the coercion and I feel like my child and I move along through difficult situations pretty smoothly as long as I validate his needs and we can create compromises that we are both happy with. How does one teach ones spouse though? Example certainly doesn't seem to work.
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#364 of 506 Old 04-05-2007, 06:05 PM
 
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oops, I am new to this so I think that I just posted my reply on some other thread somehow.... who knows, if strange computer things can happen they will with me at the wheel.....

Anyhow, I was agreeing with how easy it is for me and my child to work with each other consentually. I came up with compromises with him when he was around 2 and it really works for us. I validate how he is feeling and then we talk about what has to happen and we come up with a plan that we both feel good about. So, that is pretty ship shape and we both move along harmoniously with each other. Working with my husband is another issue entirely! Not only for me but for our child as well. I would love it if my husband could understand and work from the consentual point of view. I have tried many ways of teaching this , from example to outright explanation. But we don't seem to be anywhere closer after 10 years. What to do?
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#365 of 506 Old 04-05-2007, 07:00 PM
 
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What to do?
I am no expert by any means (Universe knows I still have a long way to go with my own DH ), but can you start by ASKING him about his views? Then ask him "why?" And another "why?" And yet another "why?"

Now, be cautious not to listen to his answers with the intention to find a gap or an opportunity to put in your argument (no matter how much you want to or how appropriate it seems at the moment). Listen with intention to understand where he is coming from. Ask the "why's" with the same intention. Do you have a clear picture in *your* mind why he believes his ways are right? I mean clear clear?

I often find that the clearer I get on the intentions of the other person the easier it is for me to "meet them where they are", ykwim? And often I catch myself being too absorbed in trying to persvade them in the righteousness of *my* ways that I do not fully grasp where *they* are coming from.

I often have to consiously STOP myself from shouting "BUT!" and keep on listening.

This does several things for me:

1) In order to successfully argue (and I believe in a healthy respectful argument!) I have to learn, study and fully understand my opponent's POV

2) By truly listening and understanding (understanding by the way does not equal agreeing) I set example on how *I* want to be listened to. In the future, not right then.

3) Often when talking to a logical person (and most of us are) if I let them talk long enough WITHOUT feeling like they have to defend their point of view I see them starting to reach similar conclusions to mine.

4) When they start to reach those similar conclusions I do not approach it in a way "Se-e-e? That's what *I* was trying to tell you", I say "Hey, that is a deep insight! Thank *you*!"

Now, I am not saying you do or not do some of the above things! I am just sharing what seems to be working for us (do far)

Good luck!
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#366 of 506 Old 04-05-2007, 11:14 PM
 
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Hey everyone

Checking back in

We have been super busy in NYC (going home in a month, YAY). Everyone is out of routine. No one is being consentiual with each other . We are trying though. Lucky the girls are pretty easy going, the twins are speaking better (but still pretty delayed for 3yo). Rivka is a verbal machine, practically talks more than her sisters.

Anyway we are striving towards being consentual. Bumps are coming up in the road of course, but I look at my posts from last Aug. and I am amazed at how far we have come Sure we have bedtime issues, fights over toys, clothing arguments (still ). We're striving to live peacefully with each other and not drive anyone to the looney bin (well any more looney than living with two just 3 year olds and one not yet two will make you).

Back to lurking.

Mom to:

Three big girls  twins.gif (10) + joy.gif (almost 9!); 

One little boy ROTFLMAO.gif(6) and a full on toddler diaper.gif  (8/12) born with TAPVR heartbeat.gif (repaired at 6 days old).

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#367 of 506 Old 04-06-2007, 12:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
I call it the Toddler Rule: If you offer something more interesting, they release what they are "holding" in their hand (figuratively, in this situation). So, I'd offer MORE options which are preferable to both of you. (not just preferable to one of you, mama ) And then, release your need to control the how. Be open to the abundant alternatives to present themselves. Sounding familiar? :

Here is one:

I have the perfect recipe. A friend just created it. Wheat free, sugar free, egg free. With dark chocolate 60% Giradelli chips. It is naturally sweet, soft, and decadently sinless.

1 cup raisins
1 cup water
soak overnight at room temperature, then puree.

Add 1/4 cup oil and mix well.

In a bowl mix well:
1 cup oat flour (you can make your own flour by finely grating oat meal)
1 cup oat meal
1/2 tsp baking soda
3/4 tsp cinnamon
3/4 cup dark chocolate chips
(walnuts optional)

Stir wet ingredients in until just mixed.

Spoon onto ungreased cookie sheet.
Bake 11-15 minutes, at 375 degrees.
(you are just drying them out, the larger ones take longer. I like
them smaller, personally.)

Sinless delight.

(occasionally, I'll add some egg whites or protein powder for added protein)

Pat
Thanks Pat. I hadn't even thought of offering a healthier cookie type option. I was more thinking cookie or carrot and you know I myself would go for cookie ! Thanks for the idea and the recipe!
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#368 of 506 Old 04-06-2007, 12:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Pat. I hadn't even thought of offering a healthier cookie type option. I was more thinking cookie or carrot and you know I myself would go for cookie ! Thanks for the idea and the recipe!
It is the funniest thing that you mentioned carrots. I nearly wrote about us sitting at the park about a month ago, and we had a baggie of carrots and a little tuperware of cookies, and ds choose carrots! I was laughing to myself because there were other families sitting there; and I *know* that most children have cookies rationed and would certainly choose cookies. But, ds wanted something cold and crunchy, apparently. And he doesn't feel that he must eat the cookies whenever they are available. He'll often leave part of a cookie, or refuse them, just as he does many other foods. He listens to his body and he is aware of protein foods and their role, but LITERALLY, I almost wrote this story earlier!! His choice was cookies or carrots!!

Pat

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#369 of 506 Old 04-06-2007, 12:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hey everyone

Checking back in
I remember you!! I've thought of you often, and felt total awe at what you juggle!

Welcome, again. You can share your hints and ideas with *us*!

Pat

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#370 of 506 Old 04-09-2007, 01:53 PM
 
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I know some of you have been talking about this recently. I just realized this weekend that dh and I don't have a consensual relationship. I have been working really hard with these principles towards ds and dh (although probably more with ds). I have also been sharing everything I've been learning with dh, but I don't think he is thinking it relates to him.

There were a couple incidences this weekend where I felt really disrespected and hurt by dh's manipulation. I am glad it has been highlighted so we can work on it AND it really helped me to understand this all form the child's perspective.

Here is an example:

We had two easter social events Saturday. I had prepared ds an outfit (washed ironed etc.) I asked dh if he liked it and whether he wanted anything different. He said he was fine with my choice. I then dressed ds from head to toe. We went to the first event and came home for a few hours before heading out again. Dh asks me, "Do you want to keep him in the same outfit for the next party." I say, "Yes, that was my plan." Dh does not reply at all. 15 minutes later dh says to me, "Do you have another outfit for ds?" I was a little frustrated b/c I had already made my wishes clear and said, "no, I don't want him to wear another outfit." Dh then goes on to say,"Well now he has yogurt all over him and we have to change him."

Here is the thing. We both know that giving ds his own bowl of yogurt means yogurt EVERYWHERE...clothes, hair, floor etc. So I am now upset and asking dh why he gave him yogurt to eat on his own. I realize dh did this subcosciously b/c he wanted ds in different clothes. I ask dh and he says yes, he wanted him to change. So, instead of telling me that in the initial convo he gives him yogurt b/c he nows then we have to put him in another outfit. I was so upset. I felt like dh manipulated the situation so much and didn't even trust enough that everyone could have their needs met if we were all honest and willing to work it out. Then dh thought I was making too big of a deal out of it and I told him that I felt hurt and disrespected by someone I love and trust and this makes me feel bad.

So actually, it was a great lesson on how a child feels when we manipulate a situation where we know we will "win". Huge eye opening experience for me!
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#371 of 506 Old 04-09-2007, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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People generally "get" what they want...one way or another. In my family of origin, "discussing" something meant exposing what you want so that it could be held over you. Then someone else could get you to do what they wanted you to "agree" to. Negotiating from a place of weakness, doesn't create a sense of trust that our needs will be met.

It reminds me of when children are *taught* to "lie" about what they want to do, since telling the parent doesn't work. For instance, the proverbial "stealing cookies". In our family, there is no sense of limitation on the cookies, so there is no reason to "steal" cookies. When there is no reason to "steal" cookies, there is no reason to "lie" about taking cookies.

Since dh didn't feel comfortable telling you what he wanted, how could you increase his comfort with doing so? By blaming him for intentionally spoiling the outfit, does this increase his willingness to express himself? I find it harder to hold my "disapproval" from dh, than ds. Ds gets the benefit of unconditional innocence. Dh has a much harder hill to climb.

For instance, I wouldn't consider "denying" ds a change of clothing. But, I would easily "defend" my choice of clothing for ds "against" dh's request to change it. (you are shining a light on my own area for growth. )

Awareness is the first step. And then focusing on what I do want: open and free expression of feelings and needs, without fear of disapproval. As I offer this, I receive it.

Pat

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#372 of 506 Old 04-09-2007, 02:40 PM
 
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Hillary, it's so positive of you to turn that really annoying experience around, and realize that's what it's like for children when adults do underhanded things to force their preferences on children.

And I really like what Pat says, about these habits being formed when people don't feel safe expressing their preferences in a straightforward way.

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
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#373 of 506 Old 04-09-2007, 02:53 PM
 
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People generally "get" what they want...one way or another. In my family of origin, "discussing" something meant exposing what you want so that it could be held over you. Then someone else could get you to do what they wanted you to "agree" to.
OMG, you too?! It's still like that in my fam of origin
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#374 of 506 Old 04-09-2007, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OMG, you too?! It's still like that in my fam of origin
The use of fear and intimidation is a cultural acumen of the USA too. It isn't really isolated to our individual families. It is our culture that has learned this as a defensive mechanism. It isn't necessary because we can all get what we want/wish/desire/need.


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#375 of 506 Old 04-09-2007, 03:05 PM
 
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I hear you fully.

Lots to think about.

A big struggle we have is that I am a verbal communicator and dh is not. So I can feel like I very clearly told dh what I needed from him and he will even agree, but really he has no intention of it. Then it really upsets me that he didn't communicate to me that he wasn't going to do it.

I just realized this example is a carbon copy of my first, so obviously we have theme. I just don't know how else to communicate. Am I just supposed to know how he feels and be fine with it if he doesn't follow through with what he agreed to help with. I do hold him to different standards b/c I feel like he is an adult. I am not sure how I feel about that statement.

I am finding that consensual living really bends my world view, which I consider a good thing....just....well mind bending!
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#376 of 506 Old 04-09-2007, 07:03 PM
 
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So i want to talk about what Pat said about people being afraid to express their honest feelings. I do take responsibility that I can be a strong personality and dh is more "sensitive". So I work a lot on creating a safe space and realizing his needs are different than mine.

What if though this type of behavior IS EXACTLY WHAT HIS MOTHER IS LIKE! I know his mother's life story and you can see why she is this timid yet passive aggressive person. I dont condone it but I can see how it came to be her coping mechanism as a child. However, my assessment is that it is a learned behavior in dh. Like there is really no reason for him to be afraid to be honest (in my mind at least....maybe I will ask him tonight...curious!) and I think he is just repeating behavior he was modeled as a child. Where do you go with that?
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#377 of 506 Old 04-09-2007, 07:11 PM
 
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Dh asks me, "Do you want to keep him in the same outfit for the next party." I say, "Yes, that was my plan." Dh does not reply at all. 15 minutes later dh says to me, "Do you have another outfit for ds?"
It sounds like he is trying to communicate with you and while it might be nice if he were a bit more clear , the attempts are still there. In that situation, I would have just probed a bit more. "Would you like him in a different outfit?" "What is your concern?" And try to find ways to meet his need for a new outfit that don't impact me, if that is a concern I had.

Once your dh starts feeling heard and validated, I think you will find the communication become clearer, more open.

I agree with Pat, we will find a way to get what we want It's just a lot easier on everyone if we are working together to do that, so feelings don't get hurt in the process.

Anna
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#378 of 506 Old 04-10-2007, 03:48 AM
 
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hey all
i've been loving this thread
i'm in the same boat
with sugar addiction
me, dh and dd
and the craziness and crashing isn't so cool
how do we do it!!!???
i will try the cookie recipe
because
she cannot seem to regulate
the amount of cookies being eaten
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#379 of 506 Old 04-10-2007, 10:33 AM
 
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she cannot seem to regulate
the amount of cookies being eaten
I think the fear we parents have is very obvious to our kids. If we let go of the fear of them consuming every posible ounce of sugar, then will they still do it? I don't think so. My dd (5) got lots of candy (thanks to the easter bunny/dad and my in-law's church) on Easter. It's sitting in my pantry easily reachable by her. This time, I don't fear her eating it all. I really have nothing invested in it either way. The odd thing is, she isn't eating much of it at all?!

When dh isn't around during the day, I've let dd eat whatever she wants (dessert first, etc.). I found that she sometimes takes a bite of dessert and then a bite of her regular lunch, back and forth. Interesting...

I really do believe it's the unspoken messages we parents send that greatlly affects this attitude surrounding food (not to mention, the spoken messages).
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#380 of 506 Old 04-10-2007, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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We have about 2 pounds of candy total (5 varieties) in plastic eggs, and in ds's Easter basket, openly sitting on the table. We've discussed avoiding caffeine late at night, so we eat it earlier in the day. It is freely available. He'll eat some and not other times. Spontaneously, after about 10 little miniature chocolates yesterday during the morning, he asked for a turkey sandwich with mayo. I made half and he requested more. I made it and he ate it also. Then he ate some more chocolate a bit at a time as desired. (I ate about 8 regular sized Reece's Cups and several Ghirardelli dark chocolate squares.) We often have a bit of chocolate each day. But, it really is a non-issue for it to be readily available.

I did purchase candy without high fructose corn syrup or artificial colors, but those have certainly been enjoyed in the past also!! We usually have high quality chocolate at the house, so ds has a high taste expectation!

I've found it really helps to eat/offer tasty protein as the first meal. Then my cravings and sugar crashes are lessened. But, *listening to my body* is what I am relearning since foods/sweets were directed for us as children. Ds just says 'I want something cold, sweet, salty, protein, liquid, crunchy, etc'. And his focus is on *how he feels*, rather than what he is directed to eat.



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#381 of 506 Old 04-10-2007, 01:49 PM
 
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Ds ate a LOT of candy on Easter. We were on the way home from a family gathering and I was holding a basket filled with little choco eggs and he kept saying, "one more" and I would hand it to him.

Quote of the day!

"I ask for candy and you just give me more and more and more and....."



It is seeming to me that cl might just get a bit easier as they outgrow the toddler stage????

Anna,

I hear what you are saying and appreciate your insight. You are right in that I realize that I want dh to communicate on my terms and expect him to conform to my comfort level. That is not fun! I am going to change this!
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#382 of 506 Old 04-10-2007, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, and today I offered ds chocolate on two occasions, since I didn't want him to fall asleep in the car. A nap late in the afternoon means a really late night. He refused both times. And had a little nap anyway.


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#383 of 506 Old 04-10-2007, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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duplicate

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#384 of 506 Old 04-10-2007, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I do want to clarify that information about food, how I feel when I eat different things, what I avoid and why, observations about how food affects ds, etc. is transparent. We have an ongoing dialog about 'how do you feel, what do you think you need, do you want to try xyz, do you think you are hungry, tired, thirsty, do you want something crunchy, cold, etc.; you are loud and not hearing what others are saying and haven't eaten in a while, do you want some xyz food with protein; this has protein and fats which will make it easier to play longer at the park, etc.

So, information flows, without lecture or controlling the outcome of his choices, in context of how he or I feel and/or how our behavior impacts others. Sometimes, ds will say 'mama you sound grouchy, maybe you need to eat.' But, he was able to name several foods with protein around age three, and could tell me if he needed something to eat well before that.

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#385 of 506 Old 04-10-2007, 10:52 PM
 
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Wow Pat! That is awesome and inspiring!

I think sometimes it takes me awhile to realize how much ds knows and can understand.

Also, I myself am just realizing a lot about what I need personally to maintain a well balanced diet. In the past it has been a struggle for me so I think I almost anticipate that helping ds understand his food needs is overwhelming b/c it was such a long journey for me.

This is all so intriguing and insightful.
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#386 of 506 Old 04-16-2007, 01:15 PM
 
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I am very interested in the food talk. Does anyone have any suggestions for working with a child with SN's? DD is preverbal and has some other sensory issues. Plus, only one top front tooth, although she is 4.

I would like to improve her diet. She lives on nursing at night, tortilla chips, rice, ice cream, yogurt, and different kinds of beans in tomato sauces.

Her receptive language skills are fantastic, but understanding feeling bad from eating and having energy type stuff is beyond her.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Christi
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#387 of 506 Old 04-16-2007, 01:24 PM
 
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I do want to clarify that information about food, how I feel when I eat different things, what I avoid and why, observations about how food affects ds, etc. is transparent. We have an ongoing dialog about 'how do you feel, what do you think you need, do you want to try xyz, do you think you are hungry, tired, thirsty, do you want something crunchy, cold, etc.; you are loud and not hearing what others are saying and haven't eaten in a while, do you want some xyz food with protein; this has protein and fats which will make it easier to play longer at the park, etc.

So, information flows, without lecture or controlling the outcome of his choices, in context of how he or I feel and/or how our behavior impacts others. Sometimes, ds will say 'mama you sound grouchy, maybe you need to eat.' But, he was able to name several foods with protein around age three, and could tell me if he needed something to eat well before that.

Pat
I have been lurking here on and off.

DD1 and I talk about protein a lot.

I'm really intrigued by all this food talk b/c I find myself saying pretty dumb things like, "no, you can't have any ice cream today, we just had some yesterday."

Then I think, where did THAT come from? My upbringing probably, though I really don't remember my family having any food issues.

I really really like the idea of allowing my girls to control their own choices.

I'll be reading some more . . . :
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#388 of 506 Old 04-16-2007, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"no, you can't have any ice cream today, we just had some yesterday."
This was the type of logic that I was told as a child also. Then if "you were good", we received treats. How does that create healthy habits???!?!?!? Rewarding with food, insisting on food we didn't like...

When I was pregnant and nursing and on an elimination diet, all intake was considered protein, fats, fluids. I felt better longer when I ate enough protein. I didn't get a head ache when I had enough fluids and I didn't feel as hungry when on the elimination diet when I ate enough fat calories. So, that is just how I talk about *my* food intake out loud. And when ds would be making a choice without awareness of its impact on those around him (not enough protein, especially), then I'd mention protein foods and suggest those and why. But, the choice is his, ultimately.

As far as special needs, I make protein smoothies several times a week and add all sorts of protein powder, essential fatty acids, coconut oil, vitamins, minerals, probiotics and lots of sweeteners: xylitol, agave nectar, honey, organic maple syrup and frozen fruit. Strawberries are a big hit here and bananas seem to help disguise some of the mineral flavor. Our son loves to help pour in the ingredients and these are very highly concentrated nutrition. Basically, as a nurse we did the same thing for patients who were having a tough time consuming adequate nutrition. We'd make Ensure milkshakes or high protein drinks. Adding Vit. C makes it tart, so I avoid that.

As a young child, I made ds meatloaf, and banana or zucchini bread with added shredded vegetables and olive oil for calories. He loved them frozen for teething, or thawed as a snack. I also add protein powder to pancakes, waffles, carrot cake, frosting, and we make nutritious and delicious cookies. We also have many healthy snacks: organic corn chips, real potato chips, frozen French fries made from whole potatoes, yogurt, rice milk cheese, etc. I create about 6 plates of food a day for ds to snack on. And he just grazes all day long. And he has some favorite breakfast and dinner meals that he'll eat repeatedly through the week. The variety comes over the course of a week. I just do not worry about him eating the same frozen peas and frozen corn for 5 days in a row. Because next week he won't eat them at all. And will be eating peanut butter several times a day all week. And the next week he'll eat chicken nuggets about three days and the next week he'll eat four cans of black beans and/or garbanzo beans. Hummus and crackers are another favorite...for days in a row.

Plus some soft gummy bear vitamins which he loves.


Hope that helps.

Pat

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#389 of 506 Old 04-16-2007, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by chrfath View Post

Her receptive language skills are fantastic, but understanding feeling bad from eating and having energy type stuff is beyond her.

Thanks for any thoughts.
Mostly, I just talk about how *I* feel when I eat too much of something, or not enough of something, or crave something and find something satisfying, feel better after eating something with protein, substantial, hearty, meaty, or to replenish my thirst. Have you tried a picture board with different foods "salty", "crunchy", "soft", "sweet", "cold", "smooth", "creamy", "hot", "liquid", etc? These are the words that helped ds to listen to his body. Then I'd suggest some alternatives which met the need and were more nutritious, and sometimes those addressed the sense of desire. Other times, ds suggests foods. When he was less expressive, it was much more a 20-Questions type process of guessing. Having a photo board helps to narrow down the *type* of food. Altering recipes to add nutrition, and finding and ADDING food alternatives which are more nutritious, increases the options.

We also avoid artificial colors, artificial flavors, HFCS, preservatives, wheat, soy, dairy, high salicylate foods, consensually. We don't keep them at home, in general; but do purchase them while out, if desired. And I make or find alternatives which are preferable for foods which have these ingredients, rather than denying or forbidding them.

Pat

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#390 of 506 Old 04-16-2007, 02:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Mostly, I just talk about how *I* feel when I eat too much of something, or not enough of something, or crave something and find something satisfying, feel better after eating something with protein, substantial, hearty, meaty, or to replenish my thirst. Have you tried a picture board with different foods "salty", "crunchy", "soft", "sweet", "cold", "smooth", "creamy", "hot", "liquid", etc? These are the words that helped ds to listen to his body. Then I'd suggest some alternatives which met the need and were more nutritious, and sometimes those addressed the sense of desire. Other times, ds suggests foods. When he was less expressive, it was much more a 20-Questions type process of guessing. Having a photo board helps to narrow down the *type* of food. Altering recipes to add nutrition, and finding and ADDING food alternatives which are more nutritious, increases the options.

We also avoid artificial colors, artificial flavors, HFCS, preservatives, wheat, soy, dairy, high salicylate foods, consensually. We don't keep them at home, in general; but do purchase them while out, if desired. And I make or find alternatives which are preferable for foods which have these ingredients, rather than denying or forbidding them.

Pat
The picture board is a fabulous idea!

Pat, I love you!
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