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#61 of 506 Old 08-10-2006, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Wugmama
Sometimes I realize that in trying to find a "mutually" agreeable solution, I am actually trying to manipulate my dd into accepting my solution. does this ever happen to you? I realize that I can't enter into it with the idea that the only acceptable outcome is doing what I want - like going to the grocery store for example. I also have to be genuinely willing to compromise. This opened my eyes. Do you know what I mean?
Yes, if I am trying to convince ds toward my choice, it is coercive if I won't take no for an answer, imo. "Letting go" of my solution is NOT the same as "giving in" though. When we actively desire for the child to get their need/want/desire met, there is no act of "giving in". But by releasing my *expectation* of getting my strategy complied with in order to meet my need, I am then able to be open to alternative strategies that could also meet my need and the child's too. I am not *giving up* my need. Sometimes, my strategy is agreeable and there is no need to find a different solution. Sometiimes, I re-evaluate my need and find that it can be met in some way that doesn't involve the child participating. I find that it is often easier to create a solution which doesn't include our son than to find a way to make my solution agreeable. Other times, it is easier to adjust my original solution to make it agreeable, than to find a way to meet my need alone.

It depends.

Does that address your question?

Oh, and compromise and mutually agreeable are different, imo.

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#62 of 506 Old 08-10-2006, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Wugmama
My dd now actually has a saying. She often starts a conversation with, "remember, I want to do what I want to do".
A wise woman, she is.



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And said to me recently, "remember how you always give me ice cream before lunch and supper? I want ice cream".
Sounds like a straight forward request.


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A lot of times we fail to come to a mutally agreeable solution about something so I just let her have/do what she wants and feel resentful about it.
Is this regarding something that affects her body, or yours? Is the "resentful" actually the fear that you mention below? Are you sharing your concerns and information related to how a decision affects you? I had a time determining what information was "influencing" or "trying to convince" and what information was "sharing" in a non-judgemental way of informing about my concerns for ds's health. And discussing how his actions impacted me was a huge challenge for me to know what was "shaming" and what was sharing about me authentically. These are very different interactions than I grew up with and I am learning how to navigate them based upon many discussions, but without childhood role models. What specific issues, that impact you, are you finding challenging to create mutually agreeable solutions without resentment? I often notice that resent comes from not sharing my needs, feelings and requests. Are you comfortable doing this? I wasn't and am learning to do so without making demands, in either tone or intention. The template of NVC helps me a lot.


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I really am not happy about her newly developing eating habits. Nor about how much TV she watches. I am afraid someday when she is grown, she will blame me for her bad eating habits and say, "You were the adult, why didn't you make sure I ate better?"

~Tracy

Hmmmm....this one is hard for me to understand as I don't share these fears. From a philosophical pov, I don't feel that I have the authority to determine these things for another person. I can provide experience, information, opinions and recommendations, but not "make sure" he does or doesn't do something that he may (or may not!) want to have done. I am more than willing to support ds to make changes as he deems necessary along the way at any point in time though. I choose to live in the moment, not with regrets or fears about the past or future. Although, I am mindful about the impact of my decisions to the extent of my ability. I guess I have just seen too many things that we "know" to be so, come to be "known" to be not so.

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#63 of 506 Old 08-10-2006, 08:02 PM
 
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I am so VERY thrilled to find this thread! For the moment I can only lurk as I am caring for two dc of a friend while they are out of town. So I am struggling to keep my head above water with 4 kids under the age of five. Does any one have suggestion for interacting with children whose parents are on the opposit end of cl, (ie give time outs for name calling, ugly faces, not following their commands etc, not sleeping when they want them to) It is really hard to know were to start with kids who have been so controlled, some times they just compleatly freak out spiting, bitting, hitting and scratching. I would love to hear some ideas for such a forien senerio...while am by no perfect or even close to total cl I am striving. I should add that the family has been staying with us for the last two months while they prepare to move.

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#64 of 506 Old 08-10-2006, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by RachelEve14
I am so happy this thread got posted!! I am trying to be consensual, but it's SO hard with 3 kiddos under 3, and they are all pretty non verbal. The twins can say maybe 15 words each, and Rivka doesn't talk yet. I remember reading Aria's posts and her ds is only 2 months older than my girls and he was able to say he was upset b/c of something that happened hours earlier. My girls are SO not there.
You have stumped me! I would need help. I don't know what to say. : I am overwhelmed imagining trying to do this for one day. I feel exhausted just thinking about it. Are you young? I hope so. I don't have the energy to keep up with two three year olds and a toddler. I'd make the house as kid friendly as possible and keep offering alternatives. That sounds like the constant strategy. I would imagine that their first choice isn't going to be a common preference and it is the *process* of continuing to identify the underlying needs and working to meet those.

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How do you help non verbal kids find mutually agreeable solutions with each other? Common situation: they have started wars over clothes (I thought that would come at 12, not 2!! ). It's not always the same clothes. I don't mind switching what they are going to wear that day, I don't care if they match or not, but when I only have 1 dress, and neither one will accept any other, what to do??????? Sometimes I just start putting it on #1 and #2 flips out. Sometimes as I'm pulling something out of the closet they will both clamor for it. Sometimes I can distract with another dress, but ususally I can't (or they both want dress #2). Buying 2 of everything isn't an option, we have a lot of hand me downs and I can't really afford all new clothes for them. They are not at the level of "you wear it today and after I wash it you can wear it" They are really very much like babies w/ their communication, but like toddlers with their needs / wants.
I would try to identify aspects of the clothing that are desirable: the pink one, the short sleeves, the dress, the shorts, the warm one, the fancy one, the one with the butterfly, etc. and try to find a way to meet that need in some other way. I'd not offer clothes, unless necessary. I'd ask if they have a preference, instead of selecting. I believe that I would have them select separately. Do they like to get dressed at the same time, or just want what the other one is wearing or "going to wear". I'd be sure that getting dressed was done when not tired, hungry, angry, lonely. I'd try to meet these needs as proactively as possible. I'd find a mother's helper to help me have some sanity breaks. Not sure any of this helps. I am also not sure I'd be up to the task.

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Another issue is snatching from the baby. She used to not mind, so I would ask them to bring her another toy, but if she wasn't upset I just let it go. Now she minds . I try the "if you want that bring Rivky another toy" and that works sometimes, but not always.
I'd model offering the baby another toy. I'd express that 'It looks like you didn't want to share that toy. It looks like you want a turn with the toy. DD3 was taking a turn and wants to have a turn. Would you hand it back to dd3?' I would not expect them to provide the dd3 the toy, but empathize with each child's needs and non-verbals: 'Oops, did you see how dd3 was playing with the toy?' etc. Let me know if you need more ideas on this type of interactive conversation of validating each child's needs.

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Also Rivka wants to crawl on them, on their beds, and they are usually not agreeable to that. But they have a mattress on the floor and from there she can get to the bed and that is SOOOOO fun for my climber. I don't let her climb on them, but I feel like she has the right to climb up on the matress and onto the bed. (and they like to play and sleep in her crib, but they don't get the concept of "you use her things and she can use yours"). My matress won't work b/c it's too high. They have a kid matress, and it's the perfect height for her to climb on.
I believe the main issue is having a special place that the twins can retreat to when they want alone time, individually and together. Perhaps, on their own bed, for instance. Then I would actively engage dd3, probably the most flexible, with having alternatives which are equally or more exciting to her. Providing specific time for the twins, without dd3 "intruding", could increase the twin's agreeableness for sharing, imo. Creating other climbing opportunities with cushions, pillows, etc. elsewhere for dd3. Creating tents and other activities for the twins while dd3 has a turn with climbing on the mattresses, etc. Basically, creating opportunities for each to have their needs met with your support and engagement of the baby so that they can play without "interference". Now, providing engagement for the twins with an exploring toddler, sounds daunting to me. Perhaps, having some 'contained' time (consensual, of course) while dd3 is having a snack in the highchair or watching Baby Einstein, and giving one-on-one with the twins then. Or having dh help with this juggling. But, it sounds like keeping a lot of balls up in the air with only two hands. I am not experienced at this.

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OK I think I've blabbered enough. So how do moms of multiples / close in age kids do it? They are just not ready for negotiating. They are all in the I want it NOW and only THAT ONE will do. I can be flexible about my demands, but it's the stuff between them that is hard.
Flexibility sounds like a necessity, I agree. It sounds like you are doing it from what I could discern.

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#65 of 506 Old 08-10-2006, 08:23 PM
 
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Thanks Pat, good info and food for thought, as always.

I am totally open to giving specific examples (I have no problem baring all ) Just no time to type. I thought I'd pop in some overall, high level concerns/qestions that come up in my mind across a variety of situations.

I find yahoo message boards so much less intuitive to use - I wish that setup was easier. Glad you are here now again too.

~Tracy

OT for Pat - have you written any books?

Rockin' mama to Allison (9), Asher (5) and Alethea (3), head over heels in love with my sexy husband, Tony.

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#66 of 506 Old 08-10-2006, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll definitely stick around-- I have a lot to learn!
Me too.

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#67 of 506 Old 08-10-2006, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OT for Pat - have you written any books?
No, I really like the NVC booklets: "Raising Children Compassionately" http://www.cnvc.org/raisekds.htm http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1892...138440?ie=UTF8

"Parenting from Your Heart" http://www.cnvc.org/motherin.htm http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1892...e=UTF8&s=books

Jan Fortune Wood's book: With Consent http://www.autonomouschild.co.uk/

Naomi Aldort's new book: Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1887...lance&n=916520

Connection Parenting by Pam Leo http://www.connectionparenting.com/p...dex.html#index
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/193...lance&n=283155

And of course Unconditional Parenting.

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#68 of 506 Old 08-11-2006, 02:33 AM
 
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I am so VERY thrilled to find this thread! For the moment I can only lurk as I am caring for two dc of a friend while they are out of town. So I am struggling to keep my head above water with 4 kids under the age of five. Does any one have suggestion for interacting with children whose parents are on the opposit end of cl, (ie give time outs for name calling, ugly faces, not following their commands etc, not sleeping when they want them to) It is really hard to know were to start with kids who have been so controlled, some times they just compleatly freak out spiting, bitting, hitting and scratching. I would love to hear some ideas for such a forien senerio...while am by no perfect or even close to total cl I am striving. I should add that the family has been staying with us for the last two months while they prepare to move.
Wow! 4 under 5! I watch my niece(7) and nephew(2) a couple days a week, along with my two. It is fun, interesting, and at times leaves me needing a moment of QUIET!!!!!!!!. My nephew occasionally does the freak out thing, usually when he is either very tired or very frustrated and angry. I do my best to treat him respectfully and to help him. He and his mom go round and round in power struggles, but that doesn't happen here. Are there any specific scenarios you are thinking about that? When do you think the freak outs happen?

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#69 of 506 Old 08-11-2006, 03:50 AM
 
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Are there any specific scenarios you are thinking about that? When do you think the freak outs happen?
Oddly enough it tends to happen most when I am tring to help the children navigate conflict and reach an agreeable solution. It is almost as if because I won't step in to tell everyone what to do they get mad at me! These kids are used to a very controlled enviorment where even there facial expresions are censored so they really like to exert controll over my ds(3). and when I dont "allow" this(read help ds express his point of view) they are angry. I am very carefull to ensure that I help them in the same manner but then again I have only had them w/o their parents for the past week.

I am a firm believer in helping children find the tools/words to stand up for themselves and work twords a mutualy agreeable solution And now my 3 yo is even asking me to solve things that he never would have before, Like mom he's sticking his tounge out/using mean words.:

anyway I am starting to ramble It has been a particularly LONG day:

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#70 of 506 Old 08-11-2006, 11:47 AM
 
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For us the biggest issue (which I'm sure you've all gathered ) is ds and I are polar opposites in personality. He is very much an extrovet, and I'm not.

He very much needs my constant interaction, and I very much need time alone, it makes us both very frustrated.

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#71 of 506 Old 08-11-2006, 01:08 PM
 
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For us the biggest issue (which I'm sure you've all gathered ) is ds and I are polar opposites in personality. He is very much an extrovet, and I'm not.

He very much needs my constant interaction, and I very much need time alone, it makes us both very frustrated.
I know how hard that is!!! I am the biggest introvert and I have one of each. My oldest *has* to have her time alone and my youngest *has* to be engaged at all times. I have notice recently (she's almost 7) that she is *finally* able to have some time alone engaged in a project but that is really new.

What has helped me is to get my need for space met, usually that is when dh gets home and he actively engages her. Sometimes I'm able to go out with Pat, lately that hasn't worked for my oldest.

Have you read much about introverts/extroverts (Myers Briggs stuff or "Raising your Spirited Child")? I think that is helpful to really "get" the other person. Pat is an extrovert and I am the huge introvert and it has been an interesting experience really seeing how differently we process information and what we need to feel sane.

The other thing that helps me is to plan engagement that I will enjoy too. My dd loves art so we have been enjoying making ATCs together http://www.cedarseed.com/air/atc.html ,
I play the guitar and she loves to sing and dance while I play, card games, etc. Things that I really like to do and things we can do together.

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#72 of 506 Old 08-12-2006, 12:59 PM
 
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this sounds like a great practice. will keep reading more...
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#73 of 506 Old 08-12-2006, 01:22 PM
 
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I find yahoo message boards so much less intuitive to use - I wish that setup was easier. Glad you are here now again too.
Yep. Me too. I know I could gain much and did sign on for membership but just cannot handle the way they work.
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#74 of 506 Old 08-12-2006, 01:40 PM
 
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I have one!

Well, actually, I am pretty sure there is little I can do. We have been dealing with sleep issues with dd since she was born. In fact, it was sleep issues that brought us to handling things on a less coersive basis. We are in a MUCH better spot than we used to be, but it is still tiresome. Dd decides when she is tired and wants to go to bed. I suspect that she takes after me in that I have extreme insomnia and have great difficulty falling asleep. A normal night means at least an hour to fall asleep for me (each time I wake.....). So dd says she is ready for bed. Lately, that has been around 8-9pm which is far earlier it used to be. And far earlier than we are ready to go to bed. She wants us to sit with her until she falls asleep. We have always done this even though it means sitting there in the dark for 1-2 hours each night. She starts the night in her own bed by her choice and moves into our bed later in the night. However, the last few months, she has been waking about 45 minutes after falling asleep and wants to come into our bed. We are not in the bed yet and this is upsetting to her. So one of us sits with her until she falls asleep again. We then repeat the process in another 45 minutes. Needless to say, either dh or I get stuck sitting in the dark for most of the evening which neither of us wants to do. Neither of us wants to go to sleep at 8pm either. We have discussed this with dd until we are all blue in the face. She knows that we would prefer that she either fall asleep on her own or stay up until we are ready for bed. Neither is OK with her. She also does not want to sleep in the living room where we are (which would solve a lot of the issue). She wants to be in her room. And she is very particluar about the room. It has to be dark (we use a towel over her window) and the fan has to be on for white noise.

On a related note, dd still wakes many times each night. It is very clear that she is not at all able to fall asleep on her own, even if we are in the same bed, unless one of us wakes up and pats/holds/rocks her. This does not seem "healthy" for a 3 yo. Maybe I am letting the CIO people get to me. At 1 and 2, it seemed OK, but I am getting worried that we are giving her sleep problems that will last for life. Not that I have any idea what on earth we could do about it.
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#75 of 506 Old 08-12-2006, 01:41 PM
 
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Oddly enough it tends to happen most when I am tring to help the children navigate conflict and reach an agreeable solution. It is almost as if because I won't step in to tell everyone what to do they get mad at me! These kids are used to a very controlled enviorment where even there facial expresions are censored so they really like to exert controll over my ds(3). and when I dont "allow" this(read help ds express his point of view) they are angry. I am very carefull to ensure that I help them in the same manner but then again I have only had them w/o their parents for the past week.

I am a firm believer in helping children find the tools/words to stand up for themselves and work twords a mutualy agreeable solution And now my 3 yo is even asking me to solve things that he never would have before, Like mom he's sticking his tounge out/using mean words
.

I hope you don't mind if I ask some more questions??? I think navigating conflict between 4 under 5 would likely be difficult at times anyway, and as you say 2 of those children are very controlled. Does this happen every time there is conflicting wants between the children and you try to help? Are there any times where the are able to navigate the conflict without any help? Do the children act this way with their own mom too? Does their own mom swoop in with an imposed solution whenever they are in conflict? It is difficult for me to know what I might do in your situation without a specific scenario to look at and dissect.

With my nephew he is most apt to get physical when he is tired. I get down on his level, but with a bit of distance between us if he is being physical, and assure him several times that I care about him and want to help him. I have noticed that the times he does this has drastically dwindled over the time I have been caring for him. We are both more in sync now I think! Here is an example. He was showing visible signs of tiredness, but didn't want to cuddle up and calm down yet. He found my daughter's dry erase board and markers and started to play with them on the floor. He was scribbling ferociously and not keeping the marker on the board at all times. I told him I'd prefer he brought them to one of the tables. The markers aren't washable and some was getting on the carpet. I picked up the secon board and a few markers to help move them and he immediately started getting physical. I put the items down and got down on his level. I told him again what it was that I was trying to do. I asked him if he didn't want to take them to the table. I assured him we could find a way for both of us to get what we want. He started to calm. I aksed if we could put a large drawing pad underneath the board he was drawing on. He nodded and we were both happy! Now on looking back several things become clear that didn't register in the moment. I did assume I would gain his cooperation and began to move the items. Most of the time he is agreeable to my suggested alternatives like this. I could have waited and got some sign of consent, a nod, an okay. Or I could have just asked that he try to keep the marker on the board and explained why it was important to me.

Now I know navigating conflict between one adult and one child is much different than navigating conflict between three young children!!! I do think it is key to find out what each individual wants or needs before coming up with possible solutions. When my children are in conflict I gauge my own reaction first if voices are being raised and it is obvious feelings are intense. If I feel that I may actually escalate (if I'm irritated) the conflict I give myself a minute to calm down before I decide whether or not to go and try to help. At 4 and 6 they resolve alot of their conflicts alone. If they ask for my help or after several minutes appear no closer to resolving I will offer my help. I then ask questions and sometimes quickly, sometimes after several minutes we all have a clearer picture of exactly what both of them want or need that appeared to be in conflict. Then we get down to the fun part of finding a solution they both agree on. Now I want to say I am in no way perfect at this!!!! Sometimes I forget to gauge my emotions before I enter the fray and actually add tension to an already escalated conflict. YIKES!!!! Sometimes I don't get myself to a place where I would actually be de-escalating the conflict and just decide to not intervene unless things become physical. Things do work out though!

If there are certain things that repeatedly result in conflict maybe you could brainstorm preventative solutions too? Here it is my remembering to put up the play swords before nephew comes over!!!

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#76 of 506 Old 08-12-2006, 05:51 PM
 
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Dd decides when she is tired and wants to go to bed. I suspect that she takes after me in that I have extreme insomnia and have great difficulty falling asleep. A normal night means at least an hour to fall asleep for me (each time I wake.....). So dd says she is ready for bed. Lately, that has been around 8-9pm which is far earlier it used to be. And far earlier than we are ready to go to bed. She wants us to sit with her until she falls asleep. We have always done this even though it means sitting there in the dark for 1-2 hours each night. She starts the night in her own bed by her choice and moves into our bed later in the night. However, the last few months, she has been waking about 45 minutes after falling asleep and wants to come into our bed. We are not in the bed yet and this is upsetting to her. So one of us sits with her until she falls asleep again. We then repeat the process in another 45 minutes.

On a related note, dd still wakes many times each night. It is very clear that she is not at all able to fall asleep on her own, even if we are in the same bed, unless one of us wakes up and pats/holds/rocks her. This does not seem "healthy" for a 3 yo. Maybe I am letting the CIO people get to me. At 1 and 2, it seemed OK, but I am getting worried that we are giving her sleep problems that will last for life. Not that I have any idea what on earth we could do about it.
I could have written parts of this myself, and dd's half as old as yours is--you ROCK for hanging in there this long with her!

I'm sure you've been through all of this already, but the thing that stands out for me is that maybe something else is going on. Like a reason why she has such a hard time falling asleep. And wakes up so frequently. Even Dr Sears says that by 3, kids have the biological capacity to sleep through the night. The way she's so particular about her sleeping arrangement sounds a little bit like either some trauma around sleep (which should work itself out in time with TLC) or some kind of internal process like an OCD type of thing. I'm not saying that she has OCD, but it sounds sort of like it to me.

If she were my child, I would find a good alternative practicioner, one you trust, to get some help. I could see osteopathy/chiropractic/cranio-sacral therapy being helpful, perhaps homeopathy, certainly acupuncture if she could stand it. I'd also look into food allergies. I say this because dd has food allergies and we didn't have any indications of them until she caught the flu and afterwards developed a rash . . . long story short, when we found and eliminated the allergens, her sleep improved a ton. We have also found some relief through ostopathy, particularly cranial osteopathy. HTH!
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#77 of 506 Old 08-12-2006, 11:27 PM
 
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Yopper I'm sure you've tried this but have you tried the "I'll check on you thing" that helped with ds, who still is a terrible sleeper at 5. Dh would snuggle, then I would snuggle and then we'd check on him until he feel asleep.


Does she want it so dark, could a lamp by her bed and some books help in winding down. Would a sound machine with water/storm help?

Another silly suggestion but does she want you to sit with her, or snuggle. What about a large pillow stuffed animal for snuggling?


It sounds like the only happy one is dd and that isn't good. I like the homopathy route.

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#78 of 506 Old 08-13-2006, 12:45 AM
 
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I have sleep related question about my 16 mo old dd.

I started out with her really not knowing what the heck I was doing. I used to put her to sleep (never CIO--bouncing, walking, rocking, etc) for naps and bedtime. I always followed her cues, putting her to sleep when she got tired. Over time, she's exerted more and more independence around sleep, first refusing to be "put" to sleep at night, then at naps. The only "limit" I placed around sleep was that "at bedtime, we stay on the bed," meaning that once she's tired and we've gotten in bed, I would pick her up and place her back on the bed if she got off.

A few months ago, I decided I was no longer okay with this approach. I am working HARD to be consensual, and obviously the above is not that. So instead I've been going to bed with her when she wants and nursing her down. It's easier this way and I like it alot . . . EXCEPT

DD won't go to bed at night until she is literally falling down tired. She typically begins to get sleepy around dinner, and I offer to go to bed with her and she refuses. She won't go and won't go and won't go until she is too tired to sit up. And she's waking up earlier and having more nightwakings--all of the things you read about overtired kids, it's her right now. She is miserable and overtired during the day, avoiding connection, destructive, clumsy. It's so unlike her She's napping fine, but it's not coming close to compensating for the 1-2 hours she's not getting at night (plus whatever she's losing during nightwakings) that I think she could use.

I am getting really worn out. I feel like my whole day is spent halTing, because she's perma-Tired. I'm having trouble maintaining my patience and have resorted to threats and coercion a few times. I'm "on" as mom for more awake time during the day, up more during the night, and not getting as much sleep. And she's clingy right now--I haven't had a "break" or time away from her (even to shower) for several months (she doesn't consent to me leaving or bathing on my own or exercising right now, which is a whole other issue).

I think she's "detoxing" from all of my sleep training, gentle though it has been. I think this is important for her to do and I respect it, but DANG I feel frustrated and tired. Has anyone been through something similar? I'd love perspective/BTDT stories/advice. Thanks!
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#79 of 506 Old 08-13-2006, 12:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Yooper
She also does not want to sleep in the living room where we are (which would solve a lot of the issue).
Yooper this sounds like a really difficult situation! My ds has had his rough times and issues with sleep but nothing like this! The part of your post I pasted above was honestly my first thought until I read it isn't agreeable to her. Do you think its possible there may be some way to for it to become agreeable to her? Maybe a tent with sleeping bag and stuffed loveys in the living room, so she can have the dark she desires, yet you and dh could possibly watch a quiet show with the lights dimmed or off or read books by dimmed light or something else you enjoy?

I'm not sure how you feel about tv, but do you think she would be ok with watching a dimmed show in her room to help occupy her until she falls asleep. I'm not forgeting she likes the dark, just throwing out anything that comes to mind. Someimtes the kids will watch a quiet dimmed show at night. If you dim the brightness and contrast on the tv it hardly gives off any light at all, but you can still see the picture in a dark room quite clearly. If she has a favorite show maybe you could try this?

Do you or dh enjoy listening to music? Maybe you could bring a discman to the bed with you while you lay with her until she falls asleep so that it is more relaxing and enjoyable to you? Or maybe you meditate or something already?

Is there any way to change the schedule at all? You say you and dh aren't ready to go to bed whe she is. Is there some way this could change? Would dd wake later and want to stay up later or you wake earlier and want to sleep earlier. This sound soooo rough I wanted to post anything I could possibly think of!!!!!!! The chances of this being agreeable to everyone is probably pretty slim.

Hugs to you momma, I find it harder to be patient when I am tired, the night wakings must be trying. Hopefully this too shall pass and soon so your sleep can regain some sense of normalcy.

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#80 of 506 Old 08-13-2006, 01:16 AM
 
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Yooper, that does sound so hard!! We had that for a while when my girls were younger and laying there seemed like torture many nights. I tried to use it as mediation time We ended up moving to a late schedule together. We sleep late and we stay up late together.

We also watch our diet, no late afternoon chocolate or dairy. If we eat things with dyes and preservatives it tends to mess with our sleep so we avoid those too. I also think homeopathy helps. Melatonin is also an option, for you both. I have some mix feelings about it and wouldn’t want to take it daily be we do use it when we are way off. There are some schools of thought that believe some people just don't produce enough and so they supplement and have seen big changes. Might be worth researching. We also like Young Living Essential Oil Blend "Peace and Calming". We all tend to fall asleep faster when we use that.

I will say it got better for us as they got older so it still will probably evolve.
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#81 of 506 Old 08-14-2006, 04:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scubamama
You have stumped me! I would need help. I don't know what to say. : I am overwhelmed imagining trying to do this for one day. I feel exhausted just thinking about it. Are you young? I hope so. I don't have the energy to keep up with two three year olds and a toddler. I'd make the house as kid friendly as possible and keep offering alternatives. That sounds like the constant strategy. I would imagine that their first choice isn't going to be a common preference and it is the *process* of continuing to identify the underlying needs and working to meet those.
Thanks for all your great ideas. Our house is pretty kid friendly, that is the first thing I did (actually an apartment). They have free reign of the main room, I gate the kitchen, and I close the other doors if we are not in there. Thanks also for achnologing (gosh I can't spell!!) that it IS hard. Sometimes I get the feeling that I *should* be able to be consentual at all times and even though I am not in the camp of "you don't have 2 kids so you couldn't possibly understand me" I think there are things that are more challenging with multiple young kids, esp. non verbal ones. I think basically I just need to keep doing what I am doing as much as possible, get more great ideas on the board and wait for them to grow up a bit.

Thanks again mamas. I'll abe checking in often

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#82 of 506 Old 08-14-2006, 04:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ally'smom
I think she's "detoxing" from all of my sleep training, gentle though it has been. I think this is important for her to do and I respect it, but DANG I feel frustrated and tired. Has anyone been through something similar? I'd love perspective/BTDT stories/advice. Thanks!
I think you hit the nail on the head describing the process as "detoxing"

As far as suggestions... Did you try offering "rest" instead of "sleep"? Kinda "Let's lie down and read a book. Can you help me rest a bit?"

I found that two things worked (sometimes!) - 1) not phrasing what we are about to do as "sleep" Kids might take sleep as a waisted time, there is no fun in sleeping! 2) Phrasing it as *my* need for rest and asking them if they want to join you in "resting"

Actually even if there was no nap or earlier falling asleep ensuing from the above "strategies", I still noticed that DD would be more rested.
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#83 of 506 Old 08-29-2006, 01:44 AM
 
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bumping again for later perusal...
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#84 of 506 Old 08-29-2006, 03:31 PM
 
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Ally'smom, you don't suck!

I interpret what you did as offering information about expected outcomes. I don't let DS sit on cousins who don't like it, either. I offer plenty of other solutions with me that will honor the inital impulse, whatever it is - either sitting on a person, playacting about getting a rise out of someone... If it's just sitting on the see-saw, then he can wait (with me there supporting him) or he can find another one.

I try to always find and honor the thing he is trying to accomplish, even when it can't be don't with his inital plan. I just help him find another way to accomplish what he wants/needs that doesn't pi$$ anyone off.

Well, in all honesty, if it's someone who's looking to be offended like my GM, I don't go too far out of my way to prevent DS irritating them. It would be redidulous to stifle him to meet others' selfish whims. But that's another topic, I guess.

Sorry it's such a late reply... my puter's been in the puter hospital for a few weeks.




I'll post later about some stuff I'd love to discuss here... Everyone still around??


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#85 of 506 Old 08-29-2006, 04:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aira

I'll post later about some stuff I'd love to discuss here... Everyone still around??

.
Hey Aira, you are back! I missed your posts
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#86 of 506 Old 08-29-2006, 04:24 PM
 
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Hi Irina!

I missed you guys too!
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#87 of 506 Old 08-29-2006, 07:16 PM
 
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So what's that stuff that you wanted to discuss? I can use me some good 'ol discussion
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#88 of 506 Old 08-30-2006, 02:08 AM
 
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Well, I'm off to bed in a minute, but basically, I'm realizing that there are so many things that are no longer agreeable to me - like everything we currently do - and I don't have a clue how to go about restucturing, renegotiating, and making things more OK for me.

I suspect that some of these things never really were agreeable to me, but in my immense capasity to deny my needs, I didn't realize they were chapping my ass.

Others are just getting old and I'm sick of it - like DS waking up all freakin' night long. Every night. Or demanding that I lay in the same very uncomfortable position all night long with his head on my arm - and I'm not allowed to move lest the wake-up night begins. The boisterous play - on me so that I feel like a punching bag. OK, I don't mean to turn this into a full-on vent, but he's getting super demanding, and bossy, and stubborn. Well, he's always been stubborn and impossible to redirect, but it's at a new level. I know there's underlying stuff - likely that mama is making big changes, doesn't get along with Mimi (my mother) right now, and has no patience.

The real issues, rather the people I really have issues with, are my mother and SF, and still a little with DH. But I can't type that all out now... too long. I think DS's stuff is just a manifestation of those. But for the first time in his life I don't have the tolerance for digging for him to find his real needs. I mean, I do, but it's limited and I resent it for the first time. I want to curl up, meditate, be alone, introvert, introspect... I resent anything that stops me from that right now...

I feel completely unqualified to be a mother at the moment. *sigh*
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#89 of 506 Old 08-30-2006, 04:32 PM
 
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aira,

I hope things are less stressful soon

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#90 of 506 Old 08-30-2006, 07:26 PM
 
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Thanks!

For a little backstory... I'm in the middle of a fast at the moment. If you've ever fasted, you know that it brings up all kinds of "stuff". It's impossible to deceive oneself while fasting. All sorts of "truth" comes clear.

So I'm having lots of issues about subserviance, worthiness, and speaking up for myself coming up. It's not easy to see how I've been mistaken about my needs for so long. Kinda grieving it right now...

Anyhoo, don't mean to be a downer... Thanks for all the love!
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