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LDS mama's #11

9K views 380 replies 24 participants last post by  leavesarebrown 
#1 ·
here is our new thread! hope everyone is having a great day! it is a beautiful day here, and we are getting ready to go to the park, got to get out of the house for a little while!
 
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#277 ·
I just have to say it's a breath of fresh air to "hear" Mormon women discussing things like these--after 7 years in Idaho, I feel like I have to censor my comments at church because I was tired of feeling like an outcast, and now being a mom opens up a whole new can of straying-from-the-norm worms. But I love your comments, Katherine, youngnhappy, Mothernurture, about just bucking the trends and sticking up for what you know is right. I'm thirty-frickin'-three and still learning to be brave; usually I just shut up and keep my ideas to myself at church, even when asked directly. Not that I'm really afraid of offending/upsetting anyone; it just feels like I'm wasting energy explaining myself. But you guys encourage me to stand up and share what I believe because I also know that Heavenly Father wants us to raise our little ones with love. Whenever I get tired or frustrated, I say this little mantra: Infinite Tenderness, to remind myself how HF wants me to care for my baby. It always makes me feel calm and patient.

Katherine, I absolutely know what you mean about negative energy from other members disrupting your spiritual experience at church/activities. In fact, I confess I'm ditching church right now because the past 3 weeks I've been walking the halls and hanging out with the baby in the mother's lounge anyway and not feeling the Spirit at all. I don't resent the needs of my baby keeping me out of the chapel/classroom, but even though there's a speaker in the mother's lounge so I could hear Sacrament mtg., the vibe in there was not conducive to spirituality...

I thought that room would be a great place to connect with other mamas because at least they're breastfeeding like me, but I thought it was really strange that immediately after sitting down, they all swivel the rocker chairs to face away from each other and stay like that, barely acknowledging anyone else in the room even when we're all experiencing the same sweet act of feeding our little babies. Maybe they're all just super-modest. Even when I say hello and try to start a little conversation, I only get negative comments, like, "Gee, your baby's skinny!" and "Have you taken her to her two month appointment? Why not?!" and "Cloth diapers are such a pain." I think this is a good challenge for me--I need to thicken my skin and respond positively.

Sorry if I'm babbling...
 
#279 ·
I am so committed to ap-style parenting -- I love it with every fiber of my being. I feel it is the way HF wants me to raise my children. I have prayed about it and it feels right for our family...but what about the LDS mother who has prayed and feels it is right for her to take a more baby-trainer approach? Did she not get the right answer? Is she doing it wrong?

We all know everyone is different -- so why think our way is the only way? Yes, I think children benefit greatly from more ap-influenced parenting, but not all parents can be good ap-parents. As a LLL Leader I was presented with a problem an LDS mom was having with her new baby. Her baby was not gaining weight as soon as her ped would like, yet the mom would not nurse her baby on demand (at will) -- she had to keep him on a schedule. Of course I thought that was the most horrible thing, but after speaking with her for a while I had a spiritual feeling like, yes, this baby is not going to be ap'ed, but he will do just fine. He will have to be one of those babies who learns to deal with being on a schedule -- not what I feel is right for my babies, but how can I presume it is not right for her as a parent? Is she going to be held accountable later? Who knows -- certainly I do not know. All I know is I have stewardship over my little family, I have to do what I feel is right for them. But I do not extend that over to the next family and expect they follow my guidelines (as much as I wish it worked that way -- sounds like someone else's plan...).

I am the only mom like me in my ward. We even have a couple of L&D nurses who are very non-ap moms, very into medicalization of birth, etc. But looking deeper again it is not hard to see why. One had twins her first pregnancy and they had twin-to-twin transfusion -- there were many problems involved and they almost did not make it. The other is an older mom with large splits between her first "group" of children and her second. But I still get along with the sisters in my ward. No, I don't do things the way they are used to or accustomed to, but I do them. I show them I am normal, and when asked I share how we do things or what has worked for us. Other than that, I stay out of that. But it has no affect on the deep feelings of love I share with these women. I mentioned before I have a good friend who feels it necessery to give her baby formula at church and church functions. If a see a stranger pulling out a bottle of formula in public I immediately jump to judgement, but when I saw her do it at Enrichment I just kept smiling and going on with the conversation we were having, because I love her.

Yes, I would love it if every mom breastfed and ap'ed their kids, but although I believe those things are best for children, I do not always think they are best for parents. Some parents are better parents when they are able to do things differently than we would choose to do them. And yes, it does help me to remember I am being judged as an individual; I am doing things how I feel heavenly Father wants ME to do them, and I try to have faith that others are being judged accordingly, and they will be judged as well. But a lot of times I think we assume people who do not AP have fallen blindly into their parenting styles, when that is not always the case (just as I try to assure my in-laws I have not fallen blindly into AP
). I just try to smile, look happy, and remember I am in it for the long-haul, not the short-change. So many parents are truly trying to do what they feel is best, just like me.

Ruthie, my sister lives in Boise -- they just moved back there from California. If you want I will give her your email or give you hers. She is very AP, has two little boys, and is a fun girl to hang out with. She is also trying to get back into church activity.

Mothernurture, I think leaving when you need to leave sounds like a great idea, but I would hang a sign on the door like, "Nursing baby, be back later," or "With son in Primary, be back later," etc., so people can see you have other obligations with your family and maybe someone gets the hint that you could really use some help!

Onto the bright spot in my weekend! Yesterday morning I had the honorable pleasure of attending a dear friend's home birth! It was her second, and the fact that she was able to have a homebirth was truly a miracle as she started bleeding and was diagnosed with placenta previa at 12 weeks. She then went on 5 months of bedrest (with a two-year-old son) to find her placenta moved up and away from her cervix! She pushed about 7 times, to deliver a whoppingly huge baby boy. He still does not have a name, but he weighed 12 pounds, 2 ounces! She had a beautiful water birth. Birth is such a high!

Enjoy your Sunday!
 
#280 ·
Congrats on the birth, Stacie - being there as a support person can be almost as hard as giving birth sometimes! That is so great that the birth went well....I suppose that if the birth were at the hospital they would have been talking c-section long ago because of the baby's size. A few years ago I was with a friend when she birthed an 11 pound baby at home, it was beautiful and you wouldn't have known this baby was any bigger than average because the labor and birth went so smoothly - just textbook, really.

I want to encourage everyone who feels a little out of place in your ward to avoid "hiding your light". You know, there MAY be other sisters who already feel as you do about things but are afraid they are alone and you'll only find them if you are open about your parenting philosophy. There are likely to be sisters who haven't had any exposure to AP parenting, but who would be open to these ideas if they only had a chance to learn (hmmmm, a bit like missionary work).

I DID have a bad experience with the ward I was in when I had my first homebirth. The RS president was VERY unhappy that I'd had the baby at home (there is a long story here) and she told me that no one in the ward would bring me a meal. Anyway, I felt very judged in a negative way and actually quite going to church for 9 months, until we moved (btw, not once did ANYONE in the ward visit or call or contact us in any way after we quit going even though we had a child who should have been in primary and one in nursery- this ward was not exactly Enoch).

I was young, and I was shy, and my feelings were hurt so much by several experiences I had there. Fortunately my dh persuaded me to try church again after we moved, and it was a MUCH better ward....each ward does have it's own personality after all. As I've looked back at that experience over the years I realized a few things:
1) If I had been talking about my plans for a homebirth while I was pregnant, it wouldn't have been such a shock to the RS Pres (who, I found out later, had convinced her husband that giving birth brought her "close to death" each time and apparantly a home birth made it look "too easy", thereby possibly diminishing her sacrifice in her husband's eyes)

2) When the RS Pres basically refused to give service, we should have made the Bishop aware of it so that others wouldn't possibly receive the same kind of treatment.

3) I needed to separate the Gospel from the people. The actions of people in that ward (more than just this incident) should not have dictated my activity in the church.

4) It was selfish and cowardly of me to avoid the ward, when I needed the sacrament every week and my children needed to go and learn the habit and routine of church attendance and activity.

Now I'm over 40 and much more secure in myself, I think just getting older helps a lot. I no longer worry about whether or not people accept or even like me - it just doesn't really matter. I know what's best for my family and for myself and I will act on that knowledge....it's just not for other's to judge or decide. I am friendly and nice to everyone and some people become my friends and some don't. At least I know that the ones who become my friends like me for who I REALLY am because they really know me.

Sorry, I'm rambling on a bit. Hopefully I've made some sense. So...the long and short of it is what I said at the beginning: DON'T HIDE YOUR LIGHT UNDER A BUSHEL!
 
#281 ·
Wow, I've really enjoyed the discussion that's been going on. There have been really thoughtful comments and good reminders, thank you. i'm so glad that we have this thread and WELCOME to Ruthy! This thread has been such a tremendous help to me b/c sometimes I tend to doubt myself and my choices. It's so important to have good examples of other sisters who are taking the time for their family and trying to live the gospel the best way they know how. I think example goes a long way.

I am so excited to have this baby and to be in Young Women's. I'm excited about having the baby with me and breastfeeding her/him there. I think it's so important, not only for my baby to be with me but for the YW to see that it's totally normal and great to do that. I also have been so lucky in this calling to have a YW''s President who does advocate the needs of your family over your calling, the same in the past with serving in RS and the previous YWs. But I have been in a RS Pres. where that was not hte case when pregnant with ds so I definitely understand that you have to be a strong voice for your family. Fortunately the Bishop was and things worked out fine but I sure felt guilty at the time when I needed to ask to be released.

I found out that the Stake just came out with the policy of having 45 min.s to an hour of free play, then snack, lesson, activity, etc. in the second hour. That's really interesting to me but seeing as there was no structure at all before other than free play and snack I can see as it's helped some of the wards. I've decided to just deal with the situation by being with ds and having dh be with him the 2nd hour and/or coming with one of us to YW or priesthood when our calling requires. I still got some push back when trying to relay my feelings to my vt'ing comp who is the Sec of Primary (who is in charge of Nursery) as far as it's probably just his age or hinting that I needed to not make it a habit to stay with him, etc. But I just tried to restate politely that I know my child and something is going on to make him feel so uncomfortable but I know that everyone is trying their best....here are my suggestions and I'll just try to be with my son and work with the situation.

OH PS about being an example. It's been really interesting to see one of my friends who just had her 2nd. I visit taught her last year and our kids really get along great. She's one of those girls who is super put together and and overachiever and comes from a family who would not be the type to really support AP type parenting. When I bf'd ds at my b-day lunch in a restaurant I remember her looking over in initial shock and then smiling. She confided that she had a really hard time bf'ding her dd b/c she felt so uncomfortable in public. Her dd didn't grow very well and had severe food allergies as well. Well she had her dd#2 4 months ago and is a bf'ing pro, bf'ing more in public than I think I ever did and does it without flinching. Her dd#2 is growing *beautifully*. She even has her sleep with her although she always talks about transitioning her out but she's being really sensitive to her needs for now and although exhausted and not feeling totally like she can keep up with everything, knows that she can always get support here from me and is seeing a major pay off with her daughter. She said to me the other day, "oh you have to meet this other lady I met, she's such a sensitive attachment parent like you are. I think you'd really like her." That was the first she's officially recognized to me that I might have a different style of parenting but I can really see the effects of the conversations and how ds is with the things she's doing now. So I guess I'm saying, definitely be that light shining even if it's hard amidst nonsupport.
 
#282 ·
Wow--I'd missed the whole new PAGE of messages so this one's overdue, but welcome, Ruthy! I'm off in Virginia. Hope you find some like-minded mamas closeby or influence some.

My husband and I both just had a week off teaching Gospel Doctrine (we have 2 gospel doctrine classes, with 5 teachers who are rotated through so everyone teaches both classes on a rotating schedule). Our son's primary teacher was going out of town and so asked us to sub for the Sunbeams. One kid was upset when he didn't get to be the "leader" back into singing/sharing time and closing exercises and so refused to go. I was willing to stay w/ him in the hall until he was either ready to go in or the meeting was over, but then his dad rounded the bend (was walking the halls with his daughter) and started bribing, manipulating, threatening, and generally trying to bully him to going back into the meeting. This was overhead by two members of the Primary presidency. I left to change my baby's diaper and when I came back, the dad confided that he'd luckily been able to bribe him back in w/ some treat he had in hand. After the dad left, I told the two primary presidency members that I wished his dad would have just taken him with and both presidency members agreed that that would simply have set a bad precedent. This 3 1/2 yr old cried through most of the rest of the meeting (yea, real conducive to reverence!).

To those who say respect every parent's decisions I say that's a load of CRAP! Yes, some parents who claim to be inspired in their parenting are DEAD WRONG. "When we undertake...to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that [parent]". D&C 121:37
 
#283 ·
I just love the conversations we get into here and everyone's responses and openness!!


I also wanted to comment about different parents needing to parent a way that is contrary to the gospel and to our biology (which Heavenly Father created). (I know that is not the exact way it was put, but that is the way I feel about it) I think it is true to a certain extint...but only to the point that they are "needing" to parent that way becasue things are not right in their life....as in maybe they have huge childhood trauma/abuse issues they need to deal with or current family issues that haven't been dealt with. Maybe they suffer from sever depression but are not seeking help. Maybe they have some really incorrect ideas about life that they could be gently guided to find the truth for themselves. Maybe they are having marital difficulty. Maybe they are suffering from PPD. Maybe they just don't know all the options and maybe they just don't think anyone else does it any other way...or should. (and I don't think everyone was meant to be hard-core ap....but I do think that everyone was meant to bf on demand and hold their baby often and listen to their baby's cues and not cio and be gentle and loving as their child grows and not spank, etc) There are just so many variables....but all fixable or at least improve-able it's sort of like how so many moms try at bf and then fail for some reason or other...it is very rarely because the mom absolutly did not want to bf (although I know some moms who are definitly like this) but usually because of how they were raised, their extended families views on bf, their friends and communities views/practices on bf, thier education level about bf and that of those around them (especially dh's and pediatrician) ...the nursing staff and/or dr.s they have met at the hospital, etc.......there are just so many variables...but all of them can be overcome. And should be. I am not saying that every woman is not entitled to recieve personal revelation for her family....on the contrary....I feel that too many women just go with the flow of society and don't stop to really study and pray (studying being very, very important). I am sorry if I am sounding harsh or abrasive or know-it all....that is so not the spirit with which I am thinking and feeling these things. I am just so, so, so saddend in general by the mainstream parenting practices of church memebers. I fell very fortunate to be in a ward that most parents have their heads on straight and are very thoughtful, loving, supporting parents to their sweet kids. All I'm trying to say that even if there are good reasons why a mother would need to choose something other than gentle to raise her baby/child then those reasons can be dealt with and over-come. I so just feel that I am not stating my feelings/thoughts very well. I am a very supportive person and support and befriend all the moms in the ward regardless of the choices they make....but at the same time I am very outspoken and most of the other moms know my opinions and a lot of them end up asking for advice.
Ugh. Okay...I am so frustrated with myself. I hope this is not coming out all harsh and self-righteous, because I so do not mean it that way at all!!! I so agree whole heartedly with the example thing.....I think that is the biggest tool we can use to help other moms see that there is another way to parent besides the one they read about in Parents magazine. There have been numerous times when other moms have told me that they noticed something different about my family and they like it and why ...what do we do to get the results we have? I LOVE those moments!
Most of all....I am just so, so, so, so, so BEYOND grateful to our loving Father in Heaven who has given me the knowledge of ap and the wondeful, wonderful ways it has blessed and enriched our lives...and the lives of my sweet, sweet children. I am just blown away by how easily it could have gone the other way. But I think I must have studied AP in the pre-mortal existence since so much of it is what just happened naturally (which I am sooooooooo grateful to Heavenly Father for!!!!!!!!!). I just love the gentle ways he has shown me how to parent better and closer to my "roots" (roots being adam and eve, etc) so that my sweet children would grow up so far ahead of the game.
Geez...I'm afraid I'm not sharing this feeling very well, either. Guess that means I should quite for now and just pray you all will be able to know my heart on this post.
 
#284 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Ruthy
I thought it was really strange that immediately after sitting down, they all swivel the rocker chairs to face away from each other and stay like that, barely acknowledging anyone else in the room
This describes our mother's lounge too. But my impression was the following. 1) They were trying to listen to the meeting and/or allow other moms to listen. 2) They were trying to keep things quiet in order for their baby to be able to focus, fall asleep, or whatever, or 3) They were trying to keep things quiet so as not to disturb others' babies who were trying to nurse or fall asleep. Maybe I just assumed all this because my own baby was such a distractible nurser who needed absolute silence and lack of stimulation to be able to nurse--it made me wonder the same thing whenever I was around another mother who wasn't chatty.

About the recent thread in general: I don't feel the need to respect every parent's decisions, but I do feel like I must respect that mother's stewardship over her family, and sometimes there is a very fine line between the two. I would never parent the way my sil parents, and I would never give my OK to any of her choices if asked (or even if not asked). I do believe that many of them are wrong. But I must be very careful about disrespecting her right as a mother to make decisions and receive revelation for her family, because to do so would be to violate the revealed order of things just as much as I believe some of her choices violate gospel principles. We must be careful about trying to right one wrong with another wrong. I do not know what the answer is here. In conversation with her, I always stand up for principles I believe are right when they come up in conversation. I would do that with anyone. I guess we just have to be careful to separate the principle from the person. We're supposed to make judgments all the time about things we encounter in the world. If we didn't, we would be pretty flaky people and not much use to anyone. But if I start thinking that I'm a better mother than so-and-so because I'm AP'ing, I'm asking for trouble because pride has then entered my way of being. We all have weaknesses, and we all have strengths. The scriptures warn us again mocking another person because of their weakness. I agree that the best thing to do is to be an example, to be a friend, and to gently lead just as we are wanting to model gentle parenting. And of course, to speak boldly though with love in defense of the things that we hold dear. We never have to back down from what we believe to be right when it comes to parenting, but I think we do need to carefully examine our hearts when it comes to other people. Contention is not of God regardless of the importance or rightness of the issues we are contending about.
 
#285 ·
Laurel- I totally and whole heartedly agree with everything you said. Which makes me also even more convinced that I just rambled on and on in my post and now people are going to get the wrong impression of me and my views on this subject.....I wrote a bunch of other stuff here but deleted it before posting for the above reason.
 
#286 ·
Youngnhappymamma, I agreed with your comments too--and you didn't ramble, you made perfect sense! You didn't come across self-righteous at all, you came across very sincere and caring.

I am so far from living up to my own counsel anyway. I can't even express how many imaginary conversations I've held with dsil in my head over her parenting and what I'd say if had both the opportunity and the guts. I've turned my entire day upside-down many times stewing over it and churning up hard feelings toward her within myself. It is definitely something I need to change. I recognize that my job is to model gentle parenting, and then to love my nieces and nephew and to shower them with gentleness, but the incessant criticism that goes on in my mind about it serves no good purpose except to create distance and stir up contention and ill feelings in my heart.
 
#287 ·
To everyone: thank you for thoughtful comments on this latest page regarding how to advocate for family's needs when the contructs of the church, as an organization, may hinder our natural ability to chose family needs over church obligations/responsibilities... it's pretty ironic...

if there is any doubt regarding the efficacy of APing being the "right" (I apologize for not coming up with a better word) way to parent.... please check out the book Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small, PhD (if I remember correctly). And also, any of the other empirical research on early bonding.

One recent post (sorry I can't remember who!) noted that APing is biologically-driven ....everything I have researched supports the notion that APing it is the most natural way to parent because it is based on the biological connection between mother and child. Analyze other cultures throughout the globe and you'll find that the babies who thrive are parented in a much closer, attached way than many other (western, in particular) cultures, including the US.

All available research substantiates APing as the best, most IDEAL way of parenting children. (so I must conclude that it is God's way of parenting). Yes, it is taxing, yes, there is mother burnout (I just had one of those mommy burnout kind of weekends!).... but there is irrefutable evidence (cross-culturally) that attachment parenting is the BEST way to parent... in terms of basic survival in many cases. Babies and children thrive (physically, emotionally, and mentally) when they are attachment-parented...
 
#288 ·
Quote:
I don't feel the need to respect every parent's decisions, but I do feel like I must respect that mother's stewardship over her family....But if I start thinking that I'm a better mother than so-and-so because I'm AP'ing, I'm asking for trouble because pride has then entered my way of being. We all have weaknesses, and we all have strengths. The scriptures warn us again mocking another person because of their weakness.
The mother I mentioned previously had Raynaud's -- she found it excruciatingly painful to even nurse her baby. Once she nursed her nipples throbbed for an hour after the feed. For her own sanity she had to have atleast 3 hour intervals between nursings. She also had fibromyalgia since she was 12. Most nights she could not even sleep because of pain. Her first husband was an organ transplant recipient and he died a few months after the transfer. This is a perfect example of a woman who needed to have her life on a schedule in order to be a better mom -- without the schedule she felt she had no control. She has spent years of her life timing medications and food and sleep -- for her to turn that over to her newborn to decide would have sent her over the edge -- I still maintain not all parents can be AP parents. And as much as I don't agree with that or approve of it, I think that is the way it is.

I do sense a feeling of superiority amongst AP moms. Yes, I think it is more aligned with how HF wants His children raised, but for me to say it is the only way is like me reading the Scriptures and saying my interpretation is the only correct interpretation. Not only that but I think through the Atonement we do not have to be subject to our pasts and the mistakes our parents may have made. So I ultimately feel children not brought up AP will fare just fine later in life if they are doing the best they can. I also think: My in-laws raised their children far from AP -- if that was such a fault in the Lord's eyes, why have my in-laws always been in major leadership positions in the Church? My fil was a Bishop and is currently serving his 8th year as 1st counselor in the stake presidency. I know my in-laws prayed heartily for guidance in the ways they raised their children -- yet they were not the kind of parents I strive to be.

But I can say this too: I know I have a REAL propensity to be a mean-spirited person. I know I work hard to overcome these issues I have had my whole life. I truly feel AP is an answer to years of prayers because it has taught me a way which works in my house. I think AP has worked as a puzzle-peice, almost tailored to what I need as a parent. How can I say it should fit like that for everyone?
 
#289 ·
Quote:
so I must conclude that it is God's way of parenting
That is fine for you and your family, but what of the mother who prays and feels Ezzo is the way for her family? Pearl? Ferber? Some moms speak about these baby-trainers as highly as we speak of AP and Dr. Sears. I tell people all the time, "Do you think Jesus slept in his own crib in his own room? Do you think Mary just gave him a bottle when she needed a break?" But I guess I cannot make the judgement that non-ap'ers are doing it incorrectly until I see something specifically addressing this from the First Presidency.
 
#290 ·
About AP and biology: I think it is precisely this issue that makes some mothers uncomfortable because the mistakenly associate it with the whole "natural man" thing. It seems to me that a lot of the parenting methods that are opposite from AP focus on trying to subject the "flesh". Isn't that what Ezzo is all about? I think that's why those methods can be enticing to some parents.
 
#291 ·
I, too, really appreciate everyone's thoughtfulness AND candor here.
What a great discussion to be having with other LDS moms! And what a great, smart, compassionate, righteous group of moms!

When I was teaching childbirth classes I went through a similar realization as someone else on this thread (I believe a LLL leader) about other women's choices. I was frustrated with the number of women who, although in veiled fashion, basically said I was irresponsible, selfish, and taking too many risks (ie A BAD MOTHER) for choosing home birth. Almost always saying things like "I could never forgive myself if anything happened to the baby." At the same time, I could not understand how so many LDS women could simply turn themselves, their bodies, their babies over to total strangers in spite of really awful potential short and longer term consequences, or how they could tell about their really awful epidural experience in one sentence and in the very next, tell another woman she's crazy for wanting natural childbirth! And yet I realized that even though these choices have a profound effect on some aspects of earth life, and cumulatively could really make life more difficult and hinder someone's eternal progress, they may be made taking into account factors I cannot see or know. And the obstacles these choices may create are not insurmountable. Christ's grace IS sufficient.

I totally understand the importance of recognizing the reality of human limitations, being loving in spite of, and looking forward with a brightness of hope in Christ's atonement to cover the adverse effects of every shortcoming, and that grace and knowledge are extended to each individual as accepted by them and sufficient for their salvation regardless of the shortcomings of their parents (THANKS BE TO GOD!). But there is also an appropriate time to mourn the losses of mortality, and I am happy to have found this forum of women who encourage eachother through the frustrations and joys of trying to nurture according to gospel principles--as we imagine our heavenly parents nurtured us before we came here.

Of course some of the examples we give in support of our opinion are extreme ones. But even in those cases, the exceptions to the rule (such as a woman who for medical or mental health reasons cannot breastfeed) should recognized as an exception, not a reason for dismissing the value of breastfeeding. Overall, breastfeeding makes life EASIER in the long run for ourselves AND our children by giving them the best possible start. As another example, a woman with PPD may not know or realize that breastfeeding may be what helps SAVE her sanity because of the oxytocin boost and more gradual change in hormones. Or she may not know that meds are available which are fairly safe to take and may be effective for her while breastfeeding. And this information could make all the difference in the world to her (or not).

Of course we are all imperfect and subject to error in our own stewardships, and I don't want to be judged any more than anyone else. Those women who are chagrined with my absolutely messy/cluttery house are basing their judgements on righteous principles, too. But my indignation over the treatment of that little sunbeam (his dad actually threatened violence--not his own, but MINE!--in saying "Why are you crying? Are they [your teachers] mean? Do they beat you? Maybe I'll let them.") might be of the degree that requires a response. Perhaps I'm the person who NEEDS to say something to that dad to help him overcome his unrighteous dominion! Haven't prayed about it yet, but plan to. (Any ideas about possible approaches?)

In this instance as in others, I think it's important for me to not get emotionally carried away (even if or especially as I do choose to say something to this dad) and lose sight of the underlying principles--both in terms of free agency and Christ's power to overcome our imperfections, but also in terms of the need to continue to work towards perfection as I am able, and strengthen and help others appropriately, as I am able.

Does anyone here actually KNOW any moms who have received spiritual confirmation for sleep training and other parent-centered and children's emotion-denying parenting styles and techniques as a matter of practice?
: Most moms I've talked to who sleep train, etc. do so, by their own admission, out of desperation, not inspiration. Granted, I have had my moments of needing to put my babies down and leave the room momentarily to calm myself when they're inconsolable. And as with everyone, some things are simply too hard for me given my current weaknesses. For example, eliminating cows milk from my diet to see if it helps my baby's severe reflux may eventually be necessary. But right now, I really rely on dairy products to get adequate nutrition for continued breastfeeding. Giving up chocolate alone was really hard for me, and had good results. Eventually, I will probably get to the milk thing. We've already had to eliminate wheat since our son is allergic to it and that makes keeping up with special meals, etc. challenging enough. But I'm not going to try to claim that my continuing to use milk is inspired. (Or that it's of Satan, either!) Recognizing weaknesses doesn't mean that we shouldn't acknowledge or strive for ideals--like spending as much time as we can with our kids, nourishing them as well as we can, correcting as non-violently as we can.

Thanks for the unintended reminder to pray over my parenting decisions daily. That is something I've needed to remember more.

I'd like to talk more about the idea of trying to "subdue the flesh" and overcome the "natural man" and try to help our children do the same while at the same time recongnizing that the restored gospel gives quite a different perspective about "the flesh" including that bodies are divine (indeed an attribute of God!) and good and children are innocent and without sin.
 
#292 ·
Oh, and a while back I forgot to say CONGRATS!!! and GREAT JOB to whomever said she had lost 30 lbs. That's hard work! And best wishes on your continued goal of additional weight loss. For me to be more healthy, I need to get more excercise and continue to reduce my sugar intake. Any ideas out there for fitting in exercise on top of everything else?
 
#293 ·
Okay, honestly I couldn't read the last 5 or 6 posts b/c of time and SHOCK!!!

while reading the last 2 pages of posts this scripture came into my mind!!!!

Alma 31:16-18
16)Holy God, we believe that thou hast heparated us from our brethren: and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers: but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children: and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.
17)But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever: and thous hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell: for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the follosh traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.
18)And again we thank they, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen
That scripture, in context, is about the Zoramites who "had fallen into great error" (vs.9). They had built the Rameumptom and were offering this prayer from there! This thread began to sound a bit like that prayer to me.

Alissakae and Laurel were EXACTLY right!!!! We are all at our own level in this life. I believe that the majority of people are good and trying to do their best. It is very sad when one judges another just because of personal differences. We are all allowed our free agency. The Lord will not judge us in our ignorances. By the way Heavenly Father loves everyone even those who have different views than us. We should follow His example.

It is very upsetting to read such church BASHING on a public forum let alone have it come to that ANYWHERE!!!!! I am not going to be a favorite here anymore (not that I ever was) but I had to say something!!!
 
#294 ·
ldsmama- By the way, yes I do know someone that uses inspiration to raise her children and has had GREAT success with a wonderful, happy 2yo that was sleep trained at 7 months!!!!

ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your assumptions are maddening!!!!!
:

I will have to stay away from this thread for a few days I am so disgusted!!!!!
 
#295 ·
What has anyone said that was bashing? Okay, I shouldn't have said that respecting every other parenting decision is crap. What I mean is the fact that we have free agency and individual stewardships does not automatically mean that whatever we decide within those stewardships is right or inspired. THAT assumption is what I call crap. And still do. Because if you believe that every parent makes the best possible decisions for their kids, you are saying it's okay for kids to be neglected, criticized, and abused because God wouldn't have put them into a family in which their parents wouldn't do what was best for them. I asked the question about praying about parenting decisions genuinely, not presumptively. I really don't know anyone who has prayed about whether or not they should let their child's cries go unanswered and gotten yes as an answer to that specific question. If you are telling me your experience was different, I am honestly surprised and want to know more about how that worked in the interest of your family.

More later, I have to get the door.
 
#296 ·
Posted by youngnhappymama:

"I think it is true to a certain extint...but only to the point that they are "needing" to parent that way becasue things are not right in their life....as in maybe they have huge childhood trauma/abuse issues they need to deal with or current family issues that haven't been dealt with."

This was me when I became a mom. I was a very rigid scheduler with my twins. I used a book called, "My First 300 Babies" which was written by a baby nurse in the 60s or 70s, and is actually more strict than "Babywise". But I was so emotionally shut down from major sexual abuse/emotional abuse, that I couldn't have been any more available to my children than I was. I'm still astounded that I was able to breastfeed at all because of my history. Five years later, when my 3yo ds was born, I had done enough emotional work, that I was ready for the more flexible approach of "Babywise"! (I know, I know, this is just so sad and I now cry for what my babies went through). But I was still so emotionally unavailable that I remember standing by the bassinet when Kyle was three days old and Mark and I were genuinely puzzled as to why he was still screaming and wasn't falling asleep. After all, it was time. I really and truly didn't understand that he needed to be held.

It wasn't until I made a conscious decision to dig deep and truly heal that my mothering finally started to heal as well. 2 1/2 years ago I started doing energy work (Reiki, EFT, RET, homeopathy and flower essences) and I have come so far. 1 1/2 years ago I read "Continuum Concept" and it gave me the framework I was ready for. I "re-trained" my then 22 month-old to fall asleep in my arms. (At that point he wasn't able to fall asleep anywhere but his crib, even when he was sick.) He started to sleep with us, I got rid of the crib, and we bought a king-size bed so there was enough room for him. And my relationship with him was transformed. My other two have struggled with jealousy as they have seen their little brother get what they didn't. I try to hold them lots, too, and they know they are always welcome in our bed and in our room. I think my desire to homeschool them for 1st and 2nd grade was partly to connect more with them, too. When I was pregnant with Kevin, I was so ready to really AP my little baby. I had my sling ready, and I didn't even set up a separate room for him, all his stuff was in my room. My heart was so open and ready to love him. Of course, I didn't get that chance, but our whole family was ready. Brittany, especially was excited to wear him in the Snugli.

So all of this reminiscing is to let you know, youngnhappymama, that you are so right-on in your evaluation. The sad thing is that I never could have mothered in a different way. I was so shut down that it was not possible, and I didn't even realize that at the time. Now I focus on healing my relationships with my children, which is definitely happening. I do believe that anything can be healed, which includes their early experiences of neglect. (Which is how I now view those scheduling approaches). I think that's why people get so defensive about their parenting. They can only be an open parent to the extent they are open emotionally, and if they have old pain they haven't dealt with, they have to stay shut to a certain degree to protect themselves. And, honestly, based on the parents I know, and my own story, I think the most emotionally healthy parents also use many AP-principles, even if they don't know the actual terms. They are just naturally more emotionally available to their children. I also think this has very little to do with people's "image". I always looked like one of those super-organized, overachiever moms (you have to, right? to cover up all the inadequacy inside.) We were even one of the families people perceived as a "perfect" family in the ward, so I really don't think that's any way to tell what the quality of parent/child relationships is. Also, I think that families who are super-immersed in responsibilities at church, sign up for everything, both take on super-demanding callings, etc. can't be as available to their children as their children need them to be. I think that's why the message from Salt Lake more and more is to put the family first. I have seen an amazing difference with my children as I have become more selective about what responsibilities I take on, and how many activities we go to.

What I have learned in terms of others' parenting styles is that people can only be as open to their children as they are inside, and pressuring/lecturing/judging them will do nothing to change them. Only loving, supporting and offering an example can help. (As you all have so beautifully expressed already). If someone had tried to correct my scheduling, I would have felt defensive. But observing other moms and their relationships with their babies, and hearing positive comments about family bed would have planted little seeds of curiosity on my part.

Love to you all,
Katherine
 
#297 ·
Kathrine- thank you so much for sharing your story and your journey.
I know of other women who have similar tales to tell. I am so happy for your journey towards healing.


One of the reasons I feel so strongly about educating other women (in a gentle, example, sort of way like we have all already agreed is the best) is because when I was a new mom and already naturally feeling a lot of ap type things and doing some of them, I didn't know that there was any other way other than mainstream to parent. Quite honestly, I just did not know. We carried our son a lot, but he also was in his car seat A LOT because we honestly just did not even think about doing it another way....and had been indoctrinated about how if he is held all the time he will be "spoiled" by mainstream parenting mags and the general society at large. He slept with us for about 5 months before I just felt so pressured and guilty that we moved him out and started to sleep train him by 6 or 7 months. I did a very modified Ferber version of CIO where I did a loving bed time routine and then put him in his bed and he would cry and I would go in every few mintues to "re-assure" him. After a few nights he was getting desperate and one night he was just SCREAMING and I was out in the living room PRAYING my heart out. During my prayer I heard a very distinct voice say "go pick up your baby". I didn't even end the prayer...I immediatly went to my sweet baby and picked him up and let him fall asleep in my arms. We still made him learn to fall asleep on his own in his crib, but we never let him scream and cry again. I was not disobeying Heavenly Father, I feel, by parenting more mainstream, but I was not exactly doing everything he wanted me to, either. I was not doing my part by learning and researching. I think that is the case for a lot of moms...they maybe read one book (Ezzo) and then feel it is what they should do when they really haven't studied the way Heavenly Father wants us to. By the time I had my second I had learned more about AP and knew he would sleep with us and that is what is best for him and us. I was still a really good mother to my first son, of course. But I was not educated. I think that is my main concern in this whole conversation we are having. There are just so so so many women (as I have stated probably a zillion times already...sorry!) that just go along with the norms and don't even know there are other things they could research/learn about. I have recently had a wonderful experience with another mom in my ward who has had her second baby a few months ago. Someone in the ward gave her Ezzo. She naturally thought that this is what most people do to solve their babies sleep "problems" and so was following it. I had the opportunity (for which I am sooooo thankful to Heavenly Father!) to educate her and lead her in a direction that feels better for her and her family.

Beth- I am sorry you feel that there is any church bashing or contention going on in this conversation. I do not feel that any of us have "bashed" the church at all....we have even stated how we are told time and again that the people in the church are not perfect (including all of us) but that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect. I do not think that we need to pretend to agree with or even like people simply because they are members of the church....but we should love them becasue they are sons and daughters of God. I have felt that this was a very thorough and sweet discussion on a topic that we all spend plenty of time pondering and worrying about. I hope you can finish reading through all of it and feel the spirit with which all these things are being spoken. I do not feel that any of us feel anything but LOVE for other moms...why would we spend so much time worrying about them if we did not? I do not feel, either, that any of us are standing up on our rameumtums judging those around us.....(if anything I feel that there are many mainstream parents up on thier rameumtums telling us that we are ruining our children, etc by parenting genlty and receptively, etc) ....I feel that this discussion is about how it is frustrating that so many in the church have blinders on (which is not an assumption...there are scriptures that tell us that in the last days many of the member's of Christs church will be led astray....) and what we can do to help those who want help and how we can have greater love and compassion while still maintaining the parenting objectives we believe to be correct for our family. I feel very sad that you feel so sad about this discussion.
Stating your opinion, even when contrary to the majority here, would never make you less "popular"...I personally love you just the same and appreciate your honesty when sharing with us how you feel and hope you will continue to be an active poster on this thread.


For me personally....I also wonder how a mom who chooses something like babywise (which is so absolutly contrary to our God-given knowledge of babies and their sweet, innocent spirits) could recieve that directive to use that program from Heavenly Father. I personally feel that for a lot of things like when to feed baby, how to put baby to sleep, and other seemingly non-spritual matters of raising children people do not seek guidance from God about....I think most people seek guidance about how to raise their child in the gospel. I hope that makes sense.
I feel so frustrated that there are so many moms out there that aren't really comfortable in their parenting (I wasn't with my first son....not the way I feel now) but don't know where to look or even that there is anything they could change that would help them feel better. I am again just so thankful for where Heavenly Father has helped me to journey to....a place where I am totally confident in my parenting choices and feel totally supported by Heavenly Father in all of my parenting choices (including sleep matters and other non-spiritual aspects). With my first, I did not even know that this feeling existed....I imagine that is the way most mothers feel.

Laurel- thank you for giving me feed back about my last posts...I was so concerned that there was a different feeling/perception coming off of my posts.
 
#298 ·
Beth, I am so sorry if you feel hurt. I think I understand Beth's perspective and I was feeling a little pounced upon too. I don't think she meant church bashing, more that we are bashing each other. Although we are able to discuss these things here, it does not in any way seem gently -- a little more inflammatory.

Like I have stated many times before -- I love AP and I must say I started parenting that way simply because of the example my mom set. We were always allowed into her bed or bedroom if we needed (for me that was a lot -- even when I was 12 years old). She nursed her last two babies at will (which was nice because I was 12 and 14 when she had her last two). She did not have her only son, my brother, circ'd, and I remember (because I was 14) her saying she and my step-dad researched it and felt it was medically unnecessery (that was in 1989). She was rarely seperated from her babies. She was a supreme example to me and naturally I just leaned that way.

Yes, I am an AP parent, but what is that? There are so many branches on that tree, what qualifies one as AP? I am sure just the variations of our birth stories would have us judging in our minds who here is really AP and who is not...

Like Beth I feel we need to recognize and respect our differences, and yes I said respect. If you want respect from others regarding your parenting style, you better respect the way they parent. And if not the way they parent, them as parents. I am not condoning abuse or harming ones child. But is it abuse to let your baby CIO? In our minds we may easily say yes, but in the eternal scheme of things? I am not so convinced.

I really have it engrained on my brain that I know my children best -- I know what is best for them. How can I pretend to know what is best for your child?

I know three people who have prayed for guidance in their parenting styles and all reached for Ezzo or Ferber and felt it was an answer to their prayers -- we are not the only ones who ask for divine help when it comes parenting.

I just feel I need to defend, or maybe not defend, but open eyes to the fact that just as I feel AP has been an answer to my prayers, others have felt answered by other approaches.

Edited to add: I am really thinking about homebirth with my next. After my friend's awesome experience, and hearing a horror story about my sil's hospital birth yesterday, I am really thinking about it. My first experience was anything but wonderful. I honestly felt like I did not even birth him because after 3 hours of pushing they pulled him out with a vacuum. My second required 1 1/2 hours of pushing. I was able to push him out, but it was hairy at the end too. They started paging the doc on call, gave me a hasty IV, and overall beginning the initial prep work for a c-section. I was able to get him out, but he was posterior and ascinclitic (sp). My sister had a beautiful homebirth a year ago March -- if I could have one like that I would not hesitate -- it is just the unknown...you know? I guess it is something I will have to pray about and ponder over. And I guess I have time since we are not even trying to conceive yet!
 
#299 ·
Okay, my play date is over and I can get back to this... I was about to tell my story, very similar to Katherine in CA...of growing up in an abusive home. Mine was an abusive LDS family with parents NOT kind and dear and who used warped gospel "doctrine" (philosophies of men mingled with scripture) to support the way they "parented". That's why it's SO important to me to be VERY clear about what the scriptures and prophets actually teach about how parents should try to parent, following Christ's example of love, which is, He tells us, the pattern of our Heavenly Parents. If I tend to be self-righteous (and I do), it is because I have worked REALLY hard and, by the grace of God, overcome some pretty bad pitfalls. My "instinctual" pattern of parenting, based on earthly example, would be self-serving and violent. In fact, I thank God regularly for my miscarriages and secondary infertility which gave my husband and I more time (seven years) to learn a bit about God's love and REAL attitudes towards his children--even the grown up ones--before we brought a child into the world. More than expressing gratitude at being better than others, I express gratitude that because of the workings of the spirit and the gospel in my life, I can continue to be a better self than I would be and am without these influences. That said, there are of course matters of weightier and lesser importance "in the balance" of parenting, as noted by others. And I may have added to the confusion here by not being clear in distinguishing these. For example, being loving and empathetic to our children being a weightier matter, what type of bed they sleep in or with whom being lesser. Although there IS a NT parable of Jesus in which He talks about a man being in bed "with his children"--and I like to take that literally as condoning co-sleep.
 
#300 ·
Originally posted by ldsapmom

Yes, I am an AP parent, but what is that? There are so many branches on that tree, what qualifies one as AP? I am sure just the variations of our birth stories would have us judging in our minds who here is really AP and who is not...

I'm glad you mentioned this, because until a few weeks ago I had never heard the phrase "attachment parenting" even though I apparently am an AP mom. I just listened to my instincts, followed the gentle advice of my midwives, and talked to friends who I thought were great moms. I rarely went to church during my pregnancy, so I wasn't really exposed to the mainstream influences there (don't mean to sound condescending). I also read about parenting styles in different cultures around the world and chose to adopt what felt right to me.

Please don't think I'm trying to praise myself because I figured this out "on my own," because I constantly pray for inspiration and the peace to listen to my god-given instincts; I mainly want to communicate that it makes me nervous to categorize ourselves as one type of parent as opposed to another when we all do things a little differently according to what works best in our own homes. I think "AP Parent" as a rough description of how I parent is useful, but am afraid of being labeled as a strict adherent to an unbendable set of rules...

(I'm still very new to this whole mama-experience; thank you for your patience).
 
#301 ·
I really doubt that any of us here would judge one another on how "ap" we are in comparison. There are a lot of ap moms who's children sleep in a crib...I have absolutly no problem with that. There are a lot of ap moms who vax...it's their choice. There are a lot of ap moms who don't choose to carry their babe in a sling....fine. I think the things that matter to me are the basic way an "ap" parent nurtures and listens to their children. And I know a whole lot of parents who nurture and really listen to and respond to their children's needs and they are not what would be considered "ap". the only point I am really trying to get across is that a whole lot of those parents don't do some more "ap" things (like hold baby more, etc) because they don't know it's okay to follow those urges/desires or they don't even know it's an option. Geez...this conversation is starting to depress me now. It's so hard to really know someone and know where they are coming from just by reading black and white words on the flat computer screen. I really feel that we are basically all coming from the same place in this discussion and are more in agreement than it seems. I guess my original point that worries me is how it *feels* like and *seems* like a lot of the LDS parents I know just follow mainstream america in the ways they choose to parent. I do think that there will be a lot of sad LDS moms in Heaven when they realize they didn't have to do it that way. I will stick to that opinion firmly. Just being LDS does not make someone a perfect parent or even mean that the way the are choosing to parent is a directive from Heavenly Father. I'm sure there are lots of parents who are parenting *mostly* the way heavenly Father wants them to .....nothing that anyone has said about their observations of others has been in absolute terms. As I stated before...with my first son I'm sure I was parenting the way Heavenly FAther wanted me to....but there was so much more he wanted me to do, also.

ldsapmom- we are also wanting a homebirth for our next child
 
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