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LDS mama's #11

9K views 380 replies 24 participants last post by  leavesarebrown 
#1 ·
here is our new thread! hope everyone is having a great day! it is a beautiful day here, and we are getting ready to go to the park, got to get out of the house for a little while!
 
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#302 ·
The main thing I'm getting out of this thread is that every mother has a story. No one parents in a vacuum. Every mother we encounter has a whole lifetime of experiences behind her and circumstances around her that impact her choices. We see only the cover and possibly into the first few pages of her vast and richly varied book of history. Each one of us in this thread also has a story that impacts the way we view the world, the opinions we form, and how we express them. I need to remember that any time I am bothered by something someone else says or does, there is usually something behind it that I'm not aware of that is driving whatever they are saying or doing. That goes for the mothers I encounter at church or out in the world, and it also goes for the mothers I encounter here.

I think if we strive to "seek first to understand, then to be understood" (as Stephen R. Covey says), we'll be well on our way to finding the proper balance between standing up for ideals and loving people. Easier said than done, and I have soooo far to go!
 
#303 ·
Yes, youngnhappy, even as a newbie, I think we're all on the same page. Sorry, I get hung up on semantics sometimes, took too many English classes... I'm still trying to define what "mom" means to me, much less "ap mom."

And yes, it would be so nice if we could just sit around a table and have a face to face conversation without all this technology between us!

I'm going to be quiet and just listen for a while...
 
#304 ·
I've been thinking about this thread all say, and have to throw my hat into the ring so to speak...

I one of the most important things that I have to remember is that our Father in Heaven loves all of us, His children, with a perfect, incomprehensible love. And I think that part of that love includes taking us, loving us, and accepting us where we are. He doesn't expect us to be perfect parents anymore than he expects us to live perfect, sinless lives. We all have things that we need to work on, and areas that we need to progress in, just as we have areas in the gospel, or in our personal lives, that come a little easier to us. We are not expected to be perfet in all things all at once. I had a bishop tell me once when I was terribly discouraged with the way my life was progressing that "Heavenly Father doesn't care how fast you're moving as long as your feet are pointed in the right direction."

I think we have to assume that the vast, vast majority of the families we encounter at church (or anywhere else for that matter) are doing the very best that they can to raise their children in the very best way that they know how. I like what Lisa said about everyone having a story, and the course of their lives and the way they parents and interact with people being shaped by the previous events of their lives. I love the things that I have learned about AP, and I'm glad that I've had a chance to use those in my parenting, and I don't deny getting frustrated with some memebers of my ward who espouse the virtues of things that I absolutely don't believe in. But, at the same time, I know that they are doing the very best that they know how for their family, and that I shouldn't assume that I'm a better parent just because I use some of the things that an AP philosophy preaches. After all, I still have days where I get really frustrated and don't cope well (and with two under two, those days are coming more and more frequently) and I definitely don't want anyone judging my fitness as a parent on one of those days!

 
#305 ·
Okay...well I will be honest and say I am udderly depressed by this conversation. I feel very frustrated. It seems to me that this topic or one very close to and similar to it comes around on these threads every few months and it seems that it almost always goes the same way. It starts with a few of us talking about how we feel frustrated by some other LDS moms or isoloated from them or something to that effect or general idea and then other moms say that we are being judgemental and how we should love everyone (which I feel that all of us do, anyway) and things to that effect. I appreciate that we all have different opinions, but I again feel that we are all coming from the same place and really that our opinions are closer than some may realize. Maybe we should not have these types of discussions anymore? Maybe it is not a good idea to voice our frustrations in this area? I personally had felt very realived to be able to discuss these things with other lds ap moms who understand how I sometimes feel. I will be sad if it is not safe for us to voice concern (and I feel that, by and by, our posts and thoughts are not given with an air of un-righteous judgement or hate for other lds moms in the least) here, but I think I am also really sad about how these discussions end so perhaps it is LESS sad to not even have the discussion? I really love it when we actually delve into deeper topics, like this, though. What do you all think?
 
#307 ·
Oh goodness...

I didn't mean to sound self-righteous, or preachy. I get just as frustrated as everyone else with the isolation that our different parenting practices bring. I hope that nothing I said was termed offensive. I have appreciated everyone's thoughtsabout this, and it's so nice to know that i'm not the only one that feels like I'm standing on the fringes. But at the same time, as I've been struggling with these issues over these past few weeks, I've really felt like the spirit has been telling me that I need to work hard to bridge the gaps, and that I can't be depending on other people to make the first move towards friendship and companionship. I still feel lonely at church and during the course of a normal week a lot of the time, and I really wish that some of you could come move into my ward!
I think I'm going to stop posting for the night, because I don't think I'm expressing myself very well!
 
#308 ·
To Youngnhappymamma: I agree that family issues (so many possibilities) can affect a woman's (and man's) ability to parent in a loving, nurturing way. Whether these issues are related to past abuse/trauma of some kind or are current issues like marital discord, they can impact our ability to parent. Recognizing and processing the issues we all take with us (from our families of origin) into the families we create with our chosen partners, can often be the key to opening ourselves up to our full potential as loving nurturers of the amazing spirits we have been blessed to bring into this world.

I (and my dh) don't have a family system (our families of origin) that support AP so we are pioneering this approach to parenting.

ldsapmom: My in-laws were the polar opposite of APing. My father in law held major leadership positions in the church (bishop and branch president and was almost called to be a counselor in the stake presidency but then retired/relocated to another state). I don't understand it and may never accept it, but it is possible that abusive parents can still hold positions of authority in the church. In my mind, that doesn't validate their parenting methods but perhaps the fallability of mortal decisionmaking. Ironically, my MIL was more abusive (physically and verbally) than my FIL and she never held a leadership position in the church until very recently (she's 64 now).

Katherine- thank you for sharing your experiences with us. Doing serious emotional/psychological work is so challenging at times but so worth it, no only for personal growth but also for a marriage partnership and for children. Your words were beautiful about making the conscious decision (and it does take a very conscious thought process to undertake this journey to self-healing and spiritual growth) to "dip deep and truly heal" for yourself and for your family. I have no doubt you are an inspiration to those around you. I see this so much with my dh who is an adult child of abuse who is just now starting his own journey of healing his old pain from his childhood that hasn't been dealt with yet in order to transform his relationships (with me and with our son, especially).

Being emotionally available to each other and to our children is the key to a conscious marriage and harmonious family life. As we make this journey together, on the same road, but at different places on that road, one of our mantras has become "conflict is an opportunity for personal growth." (sometimes it's hard to see that and believe it when you're embroiled in a seemingly intractable conflict!).

I believe someone said (Laurel?) our life experiences shape our world view... so true. It's a challenge to bridge the gaps in our experiences to come together and share on some deeper level. I have appreciated the conversations that have occurred on this thread and it has helped me personally to not feel as isolated in my daily efforts to nurture these little ones despite our many challenges. The thought of discontinuing the discussions is actually depressing to me. Has anyone else benefitted from our discussions?
 
#309 ·
Stacymom, nothing you said offended me at all - I thought your last post was beautifully written. I have appreciated the last few posts which have seemed to grasp the whole story versus our side of it. I do not know why, I guess insecurity lest you judge me as anything less than "AP," but I feel I must keep reiterating the fact that I agree with the AP philosophy of raising children - I feel it is best for my family and I see the benefits in our home. I was a bit hurt reading how harshly I perceived non-ap parents were being judged. Yes, I was being oversensitive and I realize the Spirit is not with me when I feel offended or slighted, as that is not a fruit of the Spirit. Maybe what I perceived to be harsh judgement just came about because we do feel so comfortable here - I thought maybe that was how attitudes were in real life, and if that were the case I could easily see why a person might feel alone in her ward.

I think I know what loneliness feels like as well when it comes to church. I am a big believer in "fake it til you make it." I go to Enrichment (it always seems like Enrichment is where I feel the most alone) and see the other women looking like they "fit in," whatever that means. They seem to be enjoying the conversation and generally getting along. I feel like an uninvited guest. I mostly just wander from group to group, making casual conversation and then moving on when the topic gets to families (like what is going on with whom - we have been in the ward almost 2 years and still fell like newbies - we don't know everyone's extended family like people who have lived here for years). I feel alone, but I know HF wants me to be there. I do look forward to going and enjoying the sisterhood there. I just let my insecurities get the best of me.

There are other places in life I get affirmation of my gentle parenting, and although those fries are not LDS, I can truly say there is not much missing. I am fortunate to have a tight group of friends here, whom I have made only in the last 6 months, who share so many things with me. Although we do not share religion one (the one who just had her baby, all 12 pounds of him!) is particularly spiritual and we are able to discuss religion freely. I like it because both she and her husband take at face value what I say to them (you ever realize how silly the Joseph Smith story sounds to an outsider?) and believe that I believe what I am saying. It helps that they do not know much about the LDS religion. They attend a Unitarian Universalist Church. Other dear friends include a lesbian mom who is in a committed relationship to her partner - they just had a baby in March (seriously - I had major issues about whether we could be friends - if this is a topic anyone has any light on or questions about how I came to be friends with her, I would be more than willing to talk about that. I was wondering myself how others would feel about it…). Another good friend was actually baptized LDS at age 12, but her mom got really into it and then turned away from the church and kind of turned wacky - she does not consider herself LDS, but she never takes anything I say about my religion in any way but with supreme respect and love. So although I cannot fully share my feelings/beliefs with these ladies, our "AP" connection, and overall gentleness of person, surpasses most obstacles our friendship might encounter.

I don't really know where I am going with this. My heart is full of love for you sisters. I know it can be a rough road, but we must show others it is a very natural way to parent, and that we love it. We must also show the sisters in our wards we love them, and there is not doubt in my mind that you truly do. Like on mom stated, it is because of our love for them that we feel so strongly about wanting to share our ways. That is the truth. I must go now and gently parent my 20-month-old who has been needing me for a few minutes now
.

p.s. I never meant to insinuate that my in-laws were in any way abusive! Just meant they were not as nurturing as I strive to be. They never allowed their children to sleep in their room (to me that's a biggie because I was so needy in that area -- I hated to sleep alone). They spanked, not excessively but when they felt it was warranted, just things like that. I look to my in-laws as righteous examples of the Gospel -- I don't think they did anything damaging or abusive while raising their children -- they just did not do things the way we do things
. I love my in-laws very deeply -- because I come from such a mixed-up background they bring a level of rock-hard stability to my children (and me!) that I am grateful for on a dily basis. Another thing I marvel at: I love seeing my in-laws, especially my mil, interact with my children. There is something which so easily gives way when one is loving grandchildren versus their own children -- I know they are much more affectionate and nurturing of their grandchildren than they were of their children...
 
#310 ·
I think this whole thing just comes down to loving each other, wherever we are. And we shouldn't be isolated from other church members because of our personal choices. How can we learn from each other if we're not interacting - and not being ourselves?

Soon after I moved into my present ward (3 years ago) I invited the sisters at enrichment to come to my house one Saturday to do scrapbooking, since there was a lot of conversation about it and I wanted to get to know people. A few of them came, and it was a nice time to talk as we sat around my table with our pictures (I highly recommend this activity!) Anyway, it came out that I am a lactation consultant - I was working a the hospital at the time. One of the sisters' husband is a nurse at the hospital, and I had met him there....she said, "Well, I didn't nurse my babies so are you going to not like me?"


Of COURSE I said that didn't affect my opinion of her! I just said that if she had another baby and wanted to give it a try, or wanted any information, to let me know and I'd be happy to help.

I just think it's sad to let differences in style (parenting style, personal style, whatever) come between us! BTW this sister is at least 10 years younger than me but we have become pretty good friends...I have learned from her and I appreciate many things about her, and I would hate to think that I could have missed out on a nice friendship because of a prejudice.
 
#311 ·
Posted by mothernurture:

"I don't understand it and may never accept it, but it is possible that abusive parents can still hold positions of authority in the church. In my mind, that doesn't validate their parenting methods but perhaps the fallability of mortal decisionmaking."

I don't seem able to respond to this in a constructive way. I have now tried three times to type out a response, and I keep deleting it! This just hits so close to home that I practically start hyperventilating when I try to address it! Everything I try to type would send us in such a negative direction, and would ruin the thoughtful discussion I have so enjoyed up to this point. All I can say about this is that I harbor no illusions that positions held at church, or even an image portrayed at church, are any indication of what behavior goes on in private. This has been a major issue for my mom, and for me, and even in recent months I have confronted it yet again. Okay, I will stop right now, too much potential for stirring things up...

Oh, and Mothernurture, thanks for the encouragement. I am so proud of your dh! (Hey, if he wants any book recommendations...). I remember on my 30th birthday recognizing that things inside me were coming to the surface and I knew then that it was time to dig deep. I had no idea what the coming years would bring, but I would never change it. It's been almost three years, and the peace I have gained and the inner happiness I now have...I never knew I could feel this good. I actually like being here on earth now. I actually now have thoughts like, "Oh, this must be why people like being alive," or, "So this is why people like being married". The anxiety that was always with me is now gone, along with so many other burdens that I was finally able to release and give to the Savior. I firmly believe that through the Atonement, everything can be healed in this life, that we are not meant to experience trauma and then carry the effects throughout our lives.

I hope everyone is feeling better about this thread. I have thoroughly enjoyed it and am confused about anything being offensive. I hadn't perceived any feelings of judgement or condemnation. This is a tremendous group of women, and I am grateful to all of you for being here.

Love to you all,
Katherine
 
#312 ·
Oh, and Alissakae, I keep meaning to respond to your story of being refused dinners for having a homebirth! That is incredible! I read it to my dh, and he was incredulous as well. It's just so sad! It's great to hear the perspective you have gained in the ensuing years, too. Thanks for sharing with us.
 
#313 ·
What I feel like I gave gotten from this thread so far--and want to contine to get--is support and encouragement to keep up what I'm doing and even do so confidently. Maybe I'll even get up enough courage to NOT avoid the next parenting discussion in the mother's lounge or in Enrichment! I think all of us "fake it" to some extent--but I do see that as a negative thing. I like to call it "striving". I don't want to see other people's weaknesses or worse selves any more than I want them to see mine. And sometimes "acting" better than we are leads to becoming better people. I think I run into trouble, however, when I am trying to impress and become slightly dishonest as a result. I look forward to the day when we all can see and are seen as we truly are--beautiful and glorious daughters of Heavenly Parents, worthy and capable of great love. That said, I can't even go a day w/out losing patience w/ my kids and resorting to manipulative behavior, or w/out being critical of and nitpicking at my husband! And that is truly ugly (I would call abusive--though on the scale of abusive behaviors obviously on the lighter end--but I'll say more about that later) and unbecoming a divine embryo!
:

Man! I have to end this for now--gotta drive dh to work (one car, which I need today).
 
#314 ·
Katherine-I hope my comment about my in-laws was not offensive to you and I apologize if it caused you pain in any way. My intent was to explain my perspective which is that although my husband's parents were abusive, this is not in any way connected to the validity of the gospel (and it took me a long time to progess to that understanding). That it is possible for people to hold leadership positions in the church despite the sometimes serious problems they are causing in their family life. If you want to talk more about this offline, please email me: nortonwelter@yahoo.com. I have enjoyed your honest and very thoughtful comments. Thank you again for sharing your experiences with us. It helps so much to hear from others who many have/are dealing with perhaps similar issues. I would LOVE a book recommendation for my dh. I haven't had time yet (since he came to the realization that he needs to address these issues from his childhood in a meaningful rather than a cursory way) to research books that might help adult children of child abuse.
 
#315 ·
I've been thinking a lot about youngnhappymamma's question about whether or not this discussion if valuable or worth it. I don't really know the answer--maybe I'll figure it out while I write.

I do feel that this struggle to fit in and feel valued by others is almost universal. As is the need to be ourselves and to be able to freely share who we are and what we believe in. I think the vast majority of women in and out of the church spend a good portion of their time and energy dealing with this. For the women on my infertility email group, it is the exact same thing. Different circumstance, but the same underlying struggle and the same subject comes up over and over and over there too. The very fact that the subject comes up so often on this thread is proof to me of just how huge an issue it is in many of our lives. To say that we should just not talk about it--or that it can all be chalked up to our personal attitude--is very simplistic and contributes to the isolation itself. I think there needs to be a place to be "real", to share our hurts and lonelinesses and personal weaknesses and struggles even if they expose us as less than perfectly Christlike. I don't think we can stick our heads in the sand and ignore the fact that *many* women feel isolated and alienated. This isolation doesn't exist in a vacuum either. It is not fair to say that the particular sister who is hurting must accept all the blame for her struggle and that simply by changing her attitude, all her difficult feelings would immediately disappear.

But I am not sure how to do this without risking being misunderstood, or without offending others. I do think it's important to watch how we word things and to watch the tone of our posts. I have to be really careful with this, especially in regards to AP. It's not so hard here, but on other lists I have offended people before because of hitting "send" too quickly when I felt strongly about an issue (it's usually been in regards to parenting). Maybe we need to keep the focus on ourselves. We can vent about a situation we encounter, but we come across more humble and accepting when our post is directed toward receiving help for *us* to overcome our own feelings, and not toward just complaining about other people. But sometimes you really do just need to vent--at least I do. How can we alert readers of our post to remember that we just need to get it all out and are not intending to be taken too literally? Or that we just need a little empathy for the moment rather than a lecture? And yet, with venting comes the question of whether we really are trying to grow and learn. If all we ever do is vent, are we really striving to change the situation or are we just seeking an audience to complain and pass blame? We need to hear the opposite point of view if we are really going to be self-reflective and gain anything from the discussions.

All I know is that I would hate to see contention ruin the wonderful sisterhood that we've managed to build up over the course of 11 threads. Yes, we've discussed this issue before and disagreed, but it seems like it's been only recently that things have become very heated and people have gotten really hurt.
 
#316 ·
Laurel, I appreciate your words in the last posting. Now, the challenging task of implementing your idea -- how to continue what appears to be a much-needed discussion of women's feelings of isolation, without relaying our ideas/thoughts/emotions in an offensive way.... what a dilemma... anyone have any ideas?

Ruthy, I apologize for not welcoming you sooner! It's been a crazy month! So glad you found this thread. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I'm almost 33 too and still working on "advocating" for my (and my family's) needs... It's a hard lesson to learn, wish I had started on this path a lot sooner! And congratulations on the birth of your new daughter. I(btw, I love her name... it was on my list of possibilities during my last pregnancy).

Katherine- thank you for mentioning on an earlier post the traditional way of being a Mormon wife and mother (burning yourself out to the point of insanity and sometimes sacrificing needs of children to fulfill callings).... My question to everyone in follow up to this is, "does anyone feel that they are re-inventing the traditional idea/definition of Mormon womanhood?"

After feeling marginalized or on the outskirts of the mainstream(please do not take offense anyone, this is just my personal experience based on my life experiences of being a Mormon female) my whole life, I am trying to figure out how my chosen path will track (or diverge) the paths of those women with whom I associate in the church.

More specifically, I have come to the conclusion that "burning myself out and sacrificing my children's needs to fulfill church obligations" isn't going to work for me or my family. Instead, I'm trying to figure out how to continue to be an actively involved believer in the gospel while at the same time doing what feels right/good/ideal/best for myself, my husband, and my children... it hasn't been an easy task so far... can anyone else relate to this? If so, how have you been able to strike a balance that feels right?
 
#317 ·
ldsapmom: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your in-laws were similar to mine... only trying to explain how we have had a similar struggle (but in my case, my in-laws were actually abusive to my dh and his siblings) between knowing the very difficult family issues existed at the same time my FIL held leadership positions in the church...
 
#318 ·
Something that has been bothering me for a long time: Ever since we moved into this ward I have not really had a "calling." Okay, so I am a VT, and I am the co-Humanitarian Service person, but I do not have a calling that makes me feel worthy and used, if you know what I mean. Nothing I do every week. I guess I feel like I am not worthy to have a "real" calling. I did teach Relief Society twice last year (and I loved it!). I have spoken in church once (and I loved it!), but nothing permanant. I try to look on the bright side and think, well, look at all the time I have to devote to other things (especially LLL) -- maybe the Lord knows I need or would enjoy having this other time in my life right now. But part of me still feels like I am unworthy to hold a calling of greater responsibility. BTW, the humanitarian service only comes up once or twice a year, and even then the other co-leader likes to step in and take over -- which is hard to deal with. I have been praying that I would get a calling -- isn't that silly? And I know we are taught that one calling isn't any better than another -- I guess I feel mine are so infrequent that perhaps that os all somebody feel I can be trusted with...okay, my pity-party is over now
 
#319 ·
I think the most valuable thing I've gained from this discussion is HOPE. It's SO nice to hear other express their own struggles and see again that the gospel is for imperfect people just like me. A Feeling a conviction about the truthfulness of the doctrines of the gospel does NOT mean we are without difficulty or have all the answers--individually or collectively. If we did, there would be no promise of ongoing revelation, both personal and church-wide. Hearing others' struggles renews my faith and hope to keep on keeping on.

I also like discussing and getting ideas and information in specific areas, and I still have LOTS of questions I'd like to ask the group about implementing the gospel and natural or alternative or ecofreindly or ap or crosscultural or WHATEVER parenting ideals and still have lots of questions I'd like to propose and discuss. Like how do you deal with a toddler or pre-schooler who digs in their heels and refuses to cooperate w/out resorting to bribes, threats, violence, or force?). And how do those who co-sleep and breastfeed find snuggle time w/ dh in spite of co-sleeping and the biological connection w/ nursling which causes them to wake up at EXACTLY the right moment to prevent any rival from appearing on the scene too soon!?
 
#320 ·
I totally understand how you're feeling. For similar reasons, I was really glad to be called to teach Gospel Doctrine even on a rotating basis (even though I felt guilty for feeling glad and work regularly to try to stay humble in this highly visible calling). In part because I had felt so marginalized that this has given me an opportunity to share my testimony of the gospel and gives people something they can feel they have in common with me, but also because it's more of a challenge than my previous callings in this ward. We have a really huge (soon to be split) ward, so they've started doubling up lots of callings to give more people stuff to do!
 
#321 ·
ldsapmom: I'm experiencing exactly the opposite right now! I just had a challenging weekend where I was ready to quite all aspects of my life (including asking to be released from 2 callings AND 3 visiting teaching assignments). Having to work full time plus my church commitments and continuing to parent in an attached way (a challenging 3 1/2 year old and a nursing baby) often feels like more than I can handle... I'm needing a little more "down" time in my life right now. I'm struggling to figure out what I can let go of in the interest of my own mental health and the health/wellbeing of my family. Unfortunately, for financial reasons, I must work full time right now (with the hopes of reducing my hours to part time eventually), so that can't be eliminated from my schedule... the APing my kids obviously won't be eliminated... so I'm left with wanting to reduce my church commitments.....

ldsmama - i echo your thoughts in how this forum has been a benefit to me. It has renewed my faith and hope in that it has validated my strong desire to AP my little ones. There is just one other person in my ward that has openly talked about AP, so having this discussion venue of other LDS women who are striving to AP has been a great blessing. Thanks for posting a few more questions for us to think about/respond to regarding how we implement our AP ideas (and manage a challenging preschooler or find intimacy time with partner when nursing baby -- and in our case, a reflux baby who needs to sleep upright - interrupts what little time we have alone)..... lots of great questions!!!
 
#322 ·
My last calling was 2-3 years ago; I was in young women's, but when the yw president moved, I was released. She was also my vt partner, and after she left I was never reassigned. Now, I could have asked for a new calling and vt partner, but I guess at that time I was feeling pretty insecure about my place in the ward anyway (had received some flack about having a non-member husband and no children yet plus felt labeled as "she who has to do things differently") so I didn't. Right now I'm glad I don't have a huge calling so I can spend lots of time with baby and get ready to go back to teaching parttime in the fall. But I do miss vt, need to ask to be involved again.

I'm working on not whining and finding strength inside myself to overcome my insecurities, but I think it is healthy to share our struggles so we can hear about the similar experiences of other women and realize a) we're not alone and b) others have found solutions that may help us.

Ladies, can we choose one of ldsmama's questions to discuss?

(typing with one hand, baby sleeping on my shoulder...)
 
#323 ·
I hope that this can always be a place where others can voice their feelings openly and feel valued. I know I have a tendency sometimes to want to try and fix the problem rather than to just listen and acknowledge others feelings, which is what most of us want anyway.

Just a little side note. I had to sign some papers last dr's visit and one of them was about circumcision. I asked to bring it home and discuss it with dh. I almost just signed it right on the spot believing that it was a moot point anyway knowing how dh feels about it. I brought the form home and had dh look at it, it included all the possible risks of circumcision. After looking at it and a brief conversation he said, "Go ahead and do what you want to do." That probably comes across as him sounding callous but it was a huge step! We don't know the sex of this baby but have had several conversations in the past and wasn't expecting him to change his mind. Now the only thing is if it is a boy, how do we explain to ds#1 why he was circ'd and the other wasn't?

Also, I tested positive for group Beta-strep, arggggg. I'm on antibiotics right now (if it weren't GBS I'd try to get rid of my UTI another way but I want to test negative at my 35 week apt.) I don't want to have an IV in the hospital.

I'm so glad we have this thread and glad that you listen to my opinions and frustrations, I hope that we can keep it up.
 
#324 ·
Great questions!

***"does anyone feel that they are re-inventing the traditional idea/definition of Mormon womanhood?" (burning yourself out to the point of insanity and sometimes sacrificing needs of children to fulfill callings)***

I guess my answer would be no for several reasons. First of all, I don't associate burnout as part of the traditional idea of LDS womanhood. Are there women who take the idea of sacrifice too far and "run faster than they have strength"? Yes. But I have never felt like such women were held up as the epitome of emulation for the rest of us. I'm not even sure I could say that most LDS women fall into this category. I think we all feel pressure to do more and be more, but for me, this pressure comes only from within myself and my perceptions of what other people might be thinking. From church leaders, lessons, and scriptures, womanhood is always characterized by burning commitment and dedication to the gospel and to family, but also by balance, wisdom, grace, and proper priorities, which always put family first.

Sometimes some women can be competetive and can pressure others to do too much, and that can snowball, but I don't think most women fall into this category. I think how we perceive this is based a lot on the people we know and the dynamics of a particular setting we find ourselves in. I'm sure every ward has people who fall into the above category. But I guess I try to learn to not place too much stock in what people like this think or do. I strive to follow direction and example from leaders who actually have the stewardship to give such counsel and to extend callings/responsibilities. It is to them that I must answer and not Sister So-and-so (or a hundred Sister So-and-so's) who just happens to have an opinion on how everybody should do it.

When I seek for understanding of the "traditional" LDS woman, I look to the words of our leaders, the RS theme (is that what it's called?), the Proclamation on the Family, and the examples of the great and strong women throughout our history (people like Eliza R. Snow, Sheri Dew, Chieko Okazaki, and the rest). Chieko Okazaki was notorious during her service in the General RS Presidency for urging women to not be so hard on themselves and to find balance in their lives.

There have been a handful of times when I have had to assertively stand up to someone trying to guilt me into taking on more than I could chew. This has *never* been a bishop, or a RS president, or anyone in a position of leadership--it has always been a brother or a sister acting out of their place of stewardship or taking their stewardship too far. The one time I was feeling terribly over-extended in a calling and was considering asking for a release (which I *never* do!), I prayed and prayed how to handle it, and before I could go talk to the bishop, he called me in and released me! He was very in tune, and it was such a testimony to me that Heavenly Father really knew my needs at that time. However, I do not think that we can always just wait for the spirit to prompt someone else. Sometimes, the Lord expects us to speak up. Go talk to the bishop if you're struggling with more church commitments than you can handle. Do it in an attitude of humility and faithfulness, but do it!

There is such a balance here too, though, because I also think that if we get too caught up in thinking about how overcommitted we're going to be, we can miss many opportities to serve, and we can also lose some much-needed humility. There does have to be some element of sacrifice involved, or there would be no growth. I think we grow tremendously from having to work hard to figure out priorities and how to creatively manage commitments and obligations. We need to be really careful about too much saying "no", just as well as too little. We must be absolutely sure our heart is right. Our children need to see us serve, too. They need to see us make sacrifices to fulfill callings.
 
#325 ·
I feel I have two missions when talking with moms -- I want them to breastfeed, and I want them to have great sex. We try not to sacrifoce mush in the intimacy department. I was browsing a smut magazine at the pharmacy the other day (Cosmo or something). They had included a sex survey in there. One of the questions was "What percentage of women think about sex every day?" I thought for sure the answer would have been close to 100% (based on how often I think about sex). Anyone want to take a guess? I will post the answer later if you want to guess. Anyway, many people have openly inquired how we retain our personal relations when we have little people sleeping in our bed. With the 20 month old, if he is asleep we just stay in bed. Otherwise we go somewhere else. It is not an inconvenience for us to move into another room if we are able to have time together as husband and wife. I do know some moms who don't want to do anything our of their own beds, so that does present a challange. My biggest key in parenting is being flexible. Whether a mom plans to AP or not, I gently remind them it is hard to foresee the future -- don't say the 'nevers' or the 'won'ts'. When something is not working, don't be so prideful to say, well I said I would never do it, so I won't, even though it might make things easier. Don't know where that tangent came from, but like my good friend who will not take her relations elsewhere -- then she is going to reduce the opportunity greatly...

One thing that has helped me with my toddler is pure consistancy. I took him with me to the market the other night and her threw a raging tantrun -- so bad that one lady actually made some rude comment about how that was not the way to act...I told him firmly if he did not stop I was going to take him hime. I really needed this stuff from the co-op and they were going to close in 10 minutes! Yet he would not stop. I picked him up, screaming, and carried him to the car (and he is big -- he is my 54 pound 3 year old -- well, he will be 4 in September). I told him again by acting this way he was showing me he needed to go home. The whole way home he screamed. Once home I picked him up and carried him in the house. He was still screaming. I told my husband he needed to be home and was not ready to go with me. Then I left. Of course the co-op was closed, but I needed to get a few other things at Wal-Mart. The other day he started acting up while we were out. I gently reminded him what happened before. He stopped. I am sure this will work for a while. If it fails and he has a full-blown tantrum, I will repeat the exercise. I don't get mad, I let him know if he does not act appropriately (of course I don't say that word, I let hom know what I expect) then I will take him home. I give him the choice.

A wonderful book that I like is Without Spanking or Spoiling, by Crary. I also love The Dicsipline Book by Dr. Sears. Raising Your Spirited CHild and the sister workbook to that are really good. This might be a good time to plug the only LDS AP book I know of: Pregnancy, Birth, and Your Growing LDS Family. We talk about it a lot here, but if you don't have it, get it! It is by Kathleen Tooley Johnson. It is available through amazon or she sells it directly from her sight. I actually bought it at my local LDS bookstore, but that is because she used to live here.

I must say, though, as far as bribery goes, I dod have to bribe Jacob to start toilet learning. I really don't know how else we could have done it. He had incentive toys to work for. He got a small toy when he just SAT on the toilet -- nothing else. TOy when he wore underwear, toy when he peed, etc. Currently there is a toy on the shelf above the toilet for when he poops for the first time. Right now he asks for a diaper so he can poop in it. That is fine by me. It has been about three weeks now, and every other day or so he asks me to put a diaper on him so he can poop. I am totally okay with that. I just hope it does not go on forever! When he asks for a diaper I ask him if he would like to try to go on the potty and get his truck. So far he has said, "No, I don't go poop on the potty yet." Like I said, that is okay by me! One diaper every couple of days is much better than 2 or 3 every day!
 
#326 ·
Whoa, I hopped off for a second to answer an email and Laurel and ldsapmom we must all be on at the same time.

I wanted to address ldsapmoms concern about not having a calling. It is really difficult b/c somehow when you have a calling it always makes it easier for me to get to know people, it's the good excuse I needed. Also, i think people only really get to know each other and form close friendships when you are serving together or serving that person. Could you talk to your Bishop about it or RS President or even vt'ers and let them know that you'd like have another calling?

Ok, now that I've read Laurel and ldsapmoms posts....I totally agree with the choices and consequences thing helping my ds to lovingly understand what happens. We had an experience in the grocery store the other day similar to yours. To do it calmly without anger but reminding myself that I'm helping him to learn is the key for me. Later I want to melt down but I try not to do it there.

Laurel, I always appreciate your posts. You really think about things deeply and are so articulate, you make me want to improve myself every time I read. I have to repectfully disagree, just in case someone else runs into the same situation I did. I did have a RS Pres. pressuring me and the others in her presidency to take on way more than we should have. Fortunately the Bishop knew this and would try to remind her from time to time. She just felt really strongly about her calling and gave it 200% literally and expected everyone else to do the same. I really admire her zealousness but it was causing problems in my pregnancy with ds. I had to do some serious contemplation and praying to determine that I needed to talk to the Bishop about letting me go. Fortunately he had mentioned in one of our previous interviews that if things became worse with the premature contractions to let him know. But I still felt a twinge of guilt even bringing it up. Of course he was the one who did the releasing, but I had to have a lot of courage just to bring up the situation. Incidentally I talked to the girl who was the Pres. a year later and found out that after having her 2nd baby (which she had while we were serving together) she was suffering from some major depression. I still don't think she was able to put together why but I'm glad to that she shared that with me, it helped me to understand where she was coming from a little better.
 
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