Mothering Forum banner

LDS Mamas #12

6K views 207 replies 20 participants last post by  leavesarebrown 
#1 ·
Here tis. Did I do it right?
 
#102 ·
Katherine, would you mind terribly if I asked who your midwives were? I live near you and currently we have no homebirth midwives in this area -- there are a few midwives willing to come here from the Sac. area, and I would like to know they aren't the ones involved in your case. If you feel comfortable sharing, please pm me or email me.

So do you think I can restore my ds's foreskin? The reason they snipped it off is because they had to go under the skin anyway to release scar tissue. Very interesting. But I bet, too, my dh would not go for it.
 
#103 ·
KatherineinCa- have you talked to you midwife about your disappointment and frustrations with her care?
In my last prenatal with my midwife dh expressed our frustrations with the care (or lack of care) she gave with our first baby. Granted it did not lead to a fatal outcome, however it may have made labor longer and harder than it needed to be. We used this same midwife for our second baby and now for our third. She is really talented and knowledgeable, but she just wasn't attentive the first time. Anyway, I know she wasn't even aware of our feelings until dh said something. She promised to be more helpful this time. Not that your midwife can do anything at this point but she may not even be aware of your feelings. I guess a complaint against her will let her know, huh?!

Just a thought.
 
#104 ·
I apologize b/c I haven't read everyone's posts. They've been going so quickly and I seem to have less and less time these days. But I did want to just tell you that I'm struggling with the circumcision issue. Now that dh has consented to do what I feel is best I wonder what will a little boy feel like seeing his father and brother circumcised as well as most of the other LDS boys around and all but 2 of his cousins? How will that impact his self-esteem and feelings about sexuality? How will I explain it to him and ds#1 (if this is a boy)?

I feel confident that at least 40-50% of the boys here in the DC area (if we stay here) won't be circ'd so that makes me feel better. But he wouldn't have his family's example unless we had another boy to be a place of refuge if he runs into opposition in school.

I know this must sound crazy after what I know about circumcision. Any suggestions?
 
#105 ·
I don't know about your dh but mine is very private. He does not go around showing the boys how he looks. Funny: My dh did not even KNOW his dad is intact! He did not learn that until a few years ago when Jacob was born and the topic came up.

But siblings, that's another story. I guess we are fotunate that the boys' cousins and friends they see naked are intact, except one. My two boys have made no connection yet as to their differences.

I think honesty is best served here: being open and honest to telling your children you found new information, I think, would work the best.
 
#106 ·
Drewsmom--

When I was pregnant with Kevin and was not planning to circumicise him, I explained to my other two boys that I simply didn't know better when I had them circumcised. But now that we knew better, we would do it differently. (That was accompanied by big hugs and tears and apologies, and promises of energy work to clear the trauma they experienced!)

Stacie--I will PM you. I know of two other midwives in Sacto. who sound very good. A friend in my ward has had her two babies at home with them, and another friend is currently seeing them. I cannot recommend my midwives for several reasons, the least of which is their careless prenatal care. The assistant midwife is so annoying during labor, that of five other women I know who used her, no one liked her.

Beth--Yes, I did attempt to establish a dialogue. That didn't go very well. I was told abruptly that "standard of care was met." Here's something I wrote for a homebirth babyloss e-mail list. A midwife there had asked why I'm filing complaints against them:

"To summarize my concerns:

1. I believe my prenatal care was negligent: My growth was falling off over the last two months of the pregnancy, (I went from 29 at 28 weeks to 33.5 at 37.5 weeks), yet they did not take it seriously, (commenting at one point on how cute I looked, and how amazing it was that I was smaller than the other women in our childbirth class who were due two and three months after me). They didn't weigh me, they didn't ask if I was feeling movement, they didn't ask whether my other three children had been small (they weren't), and they didn't recommend obtaining an ultrasound to get more information. Yet when I went into labor at 37.5 weeks, the midwife I called said, "Oh, we don't want you delivering yet, your baby's too small." (Which leads me to wonder, "Wasn't it a little too late to do anything at that point?") The autopsy confirmed that Kevin was the size of a 33-week fetus when he was born at 37.6 weeks. My husband and I are left to wonder if we could have seen Kevin alive, or if he could still be alive, had his poor health been noticed and had an earlier birth been effected.

2. Emotional abandonment: Once we learned that Kevin had died (during labor they discovered there was no heartbeat), the head midwife distanced herself from me. She did go to the hospital with me, but she didn't communicate sorrow or remorse about my baby's death. She very matter-of-factly stated that "standard of care had been met." They visited once, five days after his death. So in the interim I coped with the engorgement on my own, with the herbs my naturopath recommended. That one visit was spent with them briefly defending themselves, but not communicating compassion or taking any responsibility for mistakes they might have made, or things they could have done differently. Also, during labor when I was still at home, one midwife in particular kept pressuring me to stay at home, to avoid going to the hospital for an epidural, and to use the Hypnobirthing she had taught me. She had no comprehension that my ability and motivation to cope with the pain was significantly diminished by the knowledge that my baby was dead. Similarly, the Hypnobirthing tape wasn't working for me as the voice spoke of visualizing holding my (alive) baby.

3. Records. It was a struggle to get my records turned in to the hospital. My grief-stricken husband had to spend time on the phone explaining that we wanted as much information as possible for the autopsy, in the hopes that we could get some answers about what had happened. They were reluctant and dragged their feet (citing liability concerns), but he finally succeeded in convincing them to fax the records in. When we finally received the records I was surprised to see that appointment dates had been recorded incorrectly and some other information was inaccurate. It was frustrating to be trying to piece together the puzzle of what caused Kevin's death, and not be able to trust that the recorded information was even accurate. Also, about two months later, one of the midwives told me I shouldn't believe what the doctor was telling me about Kevin's death, because she hadn't sent them all of my records, so the hospital didn't have the whole story. I was horrified at that revelation, because my husband and I had wanted all the information for the autopsy.

4. Finances. We had paid them in full at 37 weeks, with the expectation that our insurance would cover 70 percent after the midwife submitted the billing. It took six weeks of un-returned phone calls and her failing to submit the billing when she said she would, before it was finally submitted. Then, because the bill was separated out into each occurance, the insurance company went down the list and denied most of it. We ended up paying about $1000 more for the birth than we had anticipated, in addition to having paid $1500 to bury our baby. This was at Christmas time, and our other three children's birthdays fell during this time period as well (so we needed that money!). None of this behavior indicated sensitivity to the fact that we were experiencing intense grief and had no extra energy to invest in all those phone calls and having to pressure her to submit that billing. Now I want all our money back, because the pre-natal care was so inadequate and their treatment of me postpartum was so poor.

I believe that my midwives' behavior was in violation of the whole goal of midwifery: woman-centered care. I experienced the worst outcome a pregnant woman could face, the death of my baby. But instead of support and compassion from my midwives I received hostility, defensiveness and abandonment. I also believed the promise that midwives are experts in normal pregnancy and birth, and will refer a client when deviations from normal are observed. I believe my slow growth at the end of the pregnancy constituted a "deviation from normal" and should have been investigated further.

I'm sure that's plenty of information! I am just now able to think coherently about all that has happened with these midwives. Trying to summarize it is difficult for me because there are so many different incidents and events. Hopefully this gives you an idea of why I shudder to think of other women receiving similar care. In fact, I just heard this week of another woman who used the same midwives and had a very negative experience as well (with the difference that her baby lived.)"
 
#107 ·
Wow. I cannot believe all that transpired and the negligence that seemed to prevail. The only thing I can think of is they must have just let you slide, seeing a few markers of a possible problem, but not putting them together enough to do anything about them.

This is hard, and I am sure you have explored this, but: Do you think Kevin was meant to not make it? Do you think that experience of growing and developing in your womb was all he needed in this life? Or do you think the outcome would have been as such regardless of your care? It explains that because you felt so secure during the whole pregnancy that things were going to be all right maybe they were supposed to be all right? It is hard to even phrase these things with some semblance of rational thoughts, and you may not know for a long time. I am really touchued by the way you and Kevin developed a relationship during pregnancy and after he died -- I wonder if you have picked up on more answers because you were so in touch with him than other mothers who have experienced a loss of this magnitude?

I am glad you are willing to share the information about your midwives with me. As I read through your story I got inklings that these ladies would not be my first choice for homebirth midwives. In fact, if it were left between me having a baby at home with them or having another hospital birth, I would choose the latter.

The problem we are having here (and all over) is the hospitals are setting up a date that they will no longer be allowing moms VBACs (it has not been decided yet). There are many moms in my LLL group who had c-sections with their firsts, and are looking into homebirth instead of repeat c-sections. That is what is happening -- these policies are driving women to consider homebirth, where many will birth successfully and happily, instead of providing a hospital atmosphere to at least have a trial of labor. But I am for homebirth if one has the help of a competant, loving midwife. I just know a lot of women who would feel so much more comfortable being able to have a VBAC in the hospital.

Did you receive a lot of support from ICAN? I am thinking of telling my section moms about it.
 
#108 ·
KatherineinCA- Wow, I am speechless. Your former midwives' negligence is astounding.


You mentioned your "grief stricken" husband. If I am not being to nosey and you don't mind sharing, I am wondering how he (your husband) has been dealing with this loss. Sometimes I think the men are forgotten in their grief because society expects them to be less emotional.
 
#109 ·
Posted by Stacie:

"Do you think Kevin was meant to not make it? Do you think that experience of growing and developing in your womb was all he needed in this life? Or do you think the outcome would have been as such regardless of your care?

I thought someone might pick up on this
! Yes, I am very clear that Kevin was supposed to die when he did. He has told me this in no uncertain terms. The understanding I have come to is that I was even led to my midwives because they were careless enough that they wouldn't pick up on his problem! He wasn't meant to experience the crash c-section, the surgeries, and the NICU experience that would have resulted had I been seeing more competent midwives or an alert OB, who would have taken action when they noticed he wasn't growing well. His life plan was to leave his body peacefully when the time was right. Because of this understanding, I struggled with taking any action against the midwives. If I believed it was supposed to happen, how could I blame them? Well, some other pieces to the puzzle that I perceive now are that this is to serve as a wake up call for them. And I am someone who can file an effective complaint and bring their poor behavior to light. So in that sense, we have been a perfect match for each other. Crazy, huh? It feels good to be so clear that this is action that needs to be taken. But it's been a definite process to reconcile my two perspectives: the spiritual, peaceful understanding, and the human, grieving mother's outrage. And I still vacillate between the two perspectives.

About ICAN--I cannot recommend it highly enough! I joined the e-mail list last year. Just warn people that the e-mail list is extremely high-volume and impossible to keep up with! They have to pick and choose what to respond to. But the support, validation, and education available there is irreplaceable. There are women healing emotionally from their c-sections, women planning VBACS, women planning HBACs. I became so well-educated because of that list. And the women there are tremendous. Have I been persuasive enough?
I don't have experience with an in-person group, but many of the women on the e-mail list participate in or lead in-person groups, so I would imagine there's a similar experience in a group.

Beth--Thanks for asking about my husband. I think he's coping in a typical "guy" way. He was very broken-up when we were in the hospital, but the day we buried Kevin, Mark told me he was ready to "move on." He tries to listen if I need to talk, but I have received most of my support from other people. I suspect that it will explode at some point, and I am ready for that. He also never wanted the midwives/homebirth, so that has raised some tricky questions for us. I have really had to re-visit the promptings and direction I experienced during the pregnancy. What it comes down to for me is that I would still do it all the same, based on the information I had at the time. (And, no, you're not too nosy
! )
 
#110 ·
Katherine, that makes perfect sense to me. Your midwives have no way of knowing the things you do about this experience. It does seem to have been a perfect fit -- what needed to happen in Kevin's life, and a wake-up call to your midwives. I think taking action is more than appropriate, and I hope something good comes from that.
 
#111 ·
WOW! Tons of stuff! Missing a day does make a difference! I'll have to go back for the long ones, both birth and courting stories I just had time to skim, but...

Alissakae that is SO cool about your DH! I have to say I am envious. My dh says no way never never not gonna happen. He was already aware of restoration from the website NOCIRC when we were looking for info for our ds. And there was an article in the Washington Post a while ago about the NORM site guy. How funny that this guy might be LDS. Are you SURE it's not just one of those Mormon rumors like Steve Martin is LDS or at least taking the discussions? (He's not)

Ldsapmom I would be concerned that a son would see restoration done "for" him as yet another violation, but think it would be cool to make info about restoration available to him (or have your dh make it available to him) when he's older so he can do it for himself if he so chooses.

Drewsmom My NoVa LDS son is intact and will be taught to be PROUD OF IT. There are a couple good quotes in the circ book I mentioned about the whole locker room teasing scenario (why my nephews are circ'd even though my sis is opposed and an alternative parent in just about every other way). So here are a few tidbits:

"Your son hardly needs to be circumcised just because some relative or some boy down the street is circumcised. Besides, chances today are that the boys in your neighborhood are genitally intact. The most insidious part of this myth [the locker room myth] is that it assumes that you will be a bad parent. It implies that you will be unable to instill in your child a sense of self-worth. Let's say that your boy does discover that some boy down the street was circumcised. Why would you assume that your boy will be envious and will want to have the end of his own penis cut off?"

"Furthermore, let us remember that it is impossible to predict how a boy will feel about his own penis. If he has been raised in a good home and has been raised to be strong-willed, responsible, and confident, he will prefer his intact penis as it is. He will be very glad and enormously relieved that no one cut off part of his penis. What sort of child would want part of his penis cut off just because some other child suffered such a fate? After all, your son, with his intact penis, is the normal one."

"...when your son reaches adulthood, he is free to have himself circumcised if that is his wish. A child circumcised at birth has been denied all options and choices over his own body in this regard."

"In any event, teasing is more appropriately handled by discipline and psychological counseling for the teaser rather than by ill-conceived attempts at preemptive surgery for the potential victim of teasing"

Okay, so I went overboard with the quotes, but this book is great! Oh, in case you didn't catch the page with the recommendation, it's called "What Your Doctor May NOT Tell You About Circumcision" by Paul Fleiss MD. I got it at B&N near Springfield Mall. Oh, BTW, let's get together! I'll e-mail you my phone number.

Short version of our meeting & courting story: Met in the hall at church (No VA), I was disappointed that he was in my SS class instead of his older sis (I was hoping for more YW my age since I'd grown up in this ward outnumbered far too long!), we hung out w/ the same group of kids at church and school but didn't date til BYU, he dumped me before his mission and I was engaged to someone else while he was gone, I dumped that guy and wrote tons and tons to dh the last 6 months of his mission (my sisters said I was stupid and setting myself up for failure since he'd already dumped me), he came home and said no to a date to Utah Symphony (my parents had season tickets) since he hadn't seen his sis for 2 yrs and I thought he was a jerk for that, we got back to school and I gave him a REALLY hard time about turning me down AND for "interviewing" me branch pres style (he'd been a branch pres on his mission) the first time I saw him again (GAG), but we made up and got on with it! First post-mish kiss was after his mission reunion, talked about marriage between conf sessions that fall, got a ring early the next year and realized then that Jesse thought we were already engaged! So we joke that we were engaged for different amounts of time (he'd thought our fall conference "discussion" counted as a proposal and acceptance), got married in April like so many other BYU couples, honeymooned at Colonial Williamsburg... What my dh doesn't have in "romance" he makes up for in SO many other ways... like being someone I can REALLY talk to about ANYTHING, does dishes, bakes bread and pies and cakes (now without WHEAT!!!!), thinks deeply about life, takes his committments seriously (including gospel), is a great dad, and--most importantly--admits he's human (that is, most of the time he'll admit it). We've now been married over twice as long as we'd known eachother before we married (11 yrs of marriage). We've had ups and downs like everyone in healthy relationships, but looking back, I'm amazed that I made as good and rational a choice as I did 'cause I was SO DUMB at 21!!!!

As far as birth and loss stories go, I'd like to share my experience w/ dd (who amazingly just turned 6 months old) eventually--especially since I've had a really important realization about her birth recently, but that will have to wait for another time.
 
#112 ·
Katherine, I got your pm but I was unable to reply (maybe I need to clean out my messages?). If I see Amy or Susan again I will certainly field that question -- the worst they could say is they don't want to talk about it, but I doubt that. They are both so open and so real, I am sure they will talk with me (and besides, I did them a HUGE favor -- they had forgotten their lidocaine and my friend needed stitches. I ran to a local midwifery office here to get the lidocaine from a CNM who they only knew of by name so Amy could run home for her son's baseball game. If I had not gone, Amy would have had to stay while Susan ran to get it, and the office is about 25 minutes away!).

I have a cousin who lives in the Sacto area -- I have no idea what ward or stake or anything, but her name is Shauna Wetenkamp -- do you know here?
Long shot -- thought I would try.

Ldsmama, that is too funny about you having two different engagement lengths! I guess as long as you both agree on how long you have been married! And I know what you mean about being dumb at 21 -- I got married when I was 20, and it was the best decision I have ever made!

And you are totally right about restoring my ds's foreskin -- I did not even think how it would be for him, I just thought he is young, maybe it would be easy right now.
 
#113 ·
Okay, well, maybe I can't wait. I don't know what I've said on this thread before so here goes. Talia was born at home--our second home birth--but was hospitalized day two after two blue spells--the second was during the PKU draw at the pediatrician. The hospital was TOTAL hell, which I won't go into here and now because that rant would just be a distraction. But during and after the hospital, people have just looked dumbfounded when I've explained that home birth had nothing to do w/ Talia's problems, and that IF we have other children, we'll do home birth again.

The part they would NEVER understand is that even my HOMEBIRTH was dangerously medicalized, almost to the loss of our daughter. I NOW know clear as day that Talia was "supposed to" stay in another week or two, and if she had, she wouldn't have had these problems. I know this in part because the results of all the invasive testing and dangerous hospital interventions could tell us nothing more than our own examination and due date estimating--that she was a bit early and not quite "done". The breathing problems, the feeding problems, the reflux--"systemic immaturities". At four and six month pulminology and cardiology follow ups she's been declared perfect in every way.

I was just too impatient and had my membranes "swept" at 5 cm and w/ 3 - 5 min contractions (37 1/2+ wks). Intervention notwithstanding, contractions ebbed after a few hours, and the birth team went home. Labor picked up again the next morning, and after 4 1.2 hours of labor on birth day, I stalled at 8 cm for 3 hours. I couldn't stand the pain w/ no progress, so I had my midwife rupture the amniotic sac. Talia was born 6 contractions (20 min) later.

Now most people (OBs included) wouldn't consider that an induction. But my first pregnancy I was at 4 cm for a MONTH before ds was born on his sono edd (day after lmp edd), and I should have known that I could have held out for Talia, too. In spite of being a childbirth educator I did this to us!!!!

I forgive myself for what I put us through (spinal taps included) because I understand where I was at the time and why I felt I needed to get her born then and with a midwife there. But in addition to added trust in NATURE's timeframe, including less fear of birthing solo if it comes down to it, my recent realization gives me a profound sense of gratitude to Heavenly Father for preserving Talia's life in spite of my stupidity, and also gratitude for the experience itself--hard as it was--because of what it taught me about myself, and about God.
 
#114 ·
Lisa, just a little note about the restoration guy being LDS. My dh has had some email correspondence with him, and he claimed to be LDS. Reading his story on the website though, he mentions being single and sexually active, so that seems to say that he isn't exactly active.
:

Beth, I JUST noticed that your name is Bethany. That is my 15 year-old daughter's name!
I LOVE your name!

Katherine, I think what you wrote for your complaint about the midwives is very well stated and certainly shows negligence. The head midwife, especially, just doesn't sound like the kind of person who typically becomes a midwife. Somehow your description reminds me more of many of the OB nurses I worked with in the hospital, I was often apalled at how disconnected they so often were. But it's even more appalling with a midwife who should have established a relationship with you by the time of the birth. I think filing the complaint is a very proactive thing for you to do, and you could protect other mothers and babies.

THe skills of a midwife are SO critical! Birth is natural and normal, of course, but things can happen and the way they are handled can make a huge difference in the outcome and the experience. My last four babies were born at home (with the same wonderful midwife) and each birth was very different. My first homebirth was "textbook". In fact, it was the first birth my mother ever witnessed and she was SO enthralled. Fifteen years later she still talks about it! The next homebirth was again wonderful and "textbook". My third homebirth was also great, although I had a labor that spanned 4 days (I was holding back - long story there). BUT - perhaps because of that long labor - I hemorrhaged after the birth. I lost enough blood fast enough that I passed out momentarily. But my midwife handled everything beautifully, and I was back in class six days later (I was finishing my university degree at the time).

Eight years later, at age 40 and overweight, I was pregnant again. This time when I asked my wonderfully supportive family doctor to share a bit of the prenatal care so he could back us up "just in case" he said he couldn't do it because I had become too high risk (oh, I should mention that in between there I had had a pregnancy that ended in fetal death at 15 weeks and had a hemorrhage again associated with that). Anyway, I felt a bit uneasy and went to a female OB for prenatal care along with the midwife (big mistake ). At the last visit I had with the OB, when I mentioned that I WAS planning to birth at home again (my previous homebirths were listed as such on my history but she had never said anything about it) she went ballistic. She literally yelled at me and told me that the baby and I could both die
I still had a few weeks left but I never went back.

I DID birth at home. I still felt good about it. My mother was unable to come when I went into labor because we had a huge snowstorm that night and she couldn't travel through the canyon to get to me. So my friend who is single and childless, my dh, and the midwife were the only ones there (I labored all night while my older kids slept, just as I had visualized throughout the pregnancy that I wanted it to be). Anyway, this is getting really long so I"ll summarize it.

Just before my last push, the midwife checked Ryan's heartrate and it was fine. Then I pushed him out and he was white and limp. Chris put him on my chest, instructed us to talk to him and massage him, and started giving him oxygen. We had some very tense moments, but she kept us talking to him while she moved his limbs and got him to pink up and squawk a bit. Then I started feeling lightheaded, delivered the placenta, and nearly blacked out as floods of blood followed the placenta. Chris immediately gave me a shot of methergine (she had this prepared because of my previous history) and massaged my uterus. Everything got under control, and obviously Ryan and I both came through the experience just fine - but what if she had been a less skilled midwife? What if she were less prepared and attuned to what could happen? I just can't say enough about how important it is to have the right person there for a homebirth, but not all parents even know how to choose carefully. Parents need to be protected from the possibility of unknowingly selecting an incompetent midwife.

Anyway, sorry I got carried away a bit here. I guess I'm just full of stories some days.

P.S. When we examined Ryan's placenta we noticed that the umbilical cord was almost completely separated from the placenta. Ryan had been entangled in the cord, and we think that he ended up without enough slack in the cord to make it down the birth canal so it separated and he was without oxygen for a very short time -leaving him white and limp. He had no ill effects - he is an adorable, rambunctious 20 month old today and I was back at work 5 weeks later.

P.S.S. Sorry, I just can't stop now that the memories are coming! This was very interesting. After Chris got the bleeding mostly under control she told me that we should probably start thinking about getting me transported to the hospital. I said, "No, absolutely not! I won't go!" (I didn't want that OB to find out and feel she had been proven right, I was on the second floor of the house and couldn't imagine how they'd get me down, and a huge blizzard was raging- so No WAY!) The next day after she had come back to check on us, she told dh, "Alissa is a very powerful woman. When I told her we needed to transport, her bleeding stopped." Isn't THAT great?
 
#115 ·
RE NORM guy--interesting, Alissa. I wonder what his story is.

I can TOTALLY understand your retisence (sp?) to going to the hospital. While I was there, I kept thinking about the reaction I would get [about the home birth] if Talia didn't pull through. I guess Katherine could tell me all about that.

You know, my hospital experience with Talia is actually what got me onto this thread in the first place--the desire to find other caring LDS moms who wouldn't think me irresponsible, in view of Talia's problems after birth, for having chosen home birth in the first place. Other women who know more about the risks and benefits--of both birth places. Other women who would have been appauled that a nursing, 2 day post partum mother was told she was not allowed to eat in her baby's hospital room (I did anyway), and that she couldn't nurse her newborn baby for 18 hours (among other things) because she might be aspirating breast milk (wouldn't that have shown up on the chest x-ray?! And don't they know that breatmilk is less likely to cause problems than formula???!!!).

Katherine--I just read your ICAN story. Thanks for sharing it as well. Part of the hell of my hospital experience was fear that my baby or decisions about her care would be taken from me since #1 she was admitted under "emergency" and ICU status and #2 I KNOW they did not see me as a fit mother at the time first because I was such an emotional wreck but also because of the home birth.

What I regret most of all was not holding her more in the hospital. I was trying to appear to be "getting some rest" as they all kept urging. And frankly, my bottom was sore and I was beyond exhausted trying to pump enough to bring my milk in AND avoid engorgement (which I didn't), get enough nutrition. All I wanted was to be home holding and nursing Talia IN MY OWN BED.
 
#116 ·
So much to respond to!

Stacie--Thanks for your willingness to talk to them if the opportunity ever arises. No, I don't know your cousin.

LisaB.--great circumcision quotes, great courting story. And what a tough experience with Talia. You know, I think my treatment in the hospital would have been much different if they were still trying to save Kevin. There were so many things that were a non-issue (in terms of monitoring during labor, newborn tests & eyedrops, keeping the baby with me) because he was already gone. And because my baby was already gone, everyone had the compassion to just feel sorry for me. Because Talia was still alive, they were feeling all the stress and pressure of trying to keep her alive, and it sounds like they were taking it out on you. Yuck. I'm very sorry you and Talia experienced that. I'm sure you are still processing that experience. I took me a long time to come to terms with my hospital experience when my twins were born, and it was much milder than what you went through. And I totally relate to people assuming the problems are due to homebirth and leaving it at that. From what I've heard from my friends, there are people in my ward that have never heard what actually happened with Kevin, who assume that he died during birth because I was having him at home. I'm glad you found this list, and I'm glad you shared your story. Like I said, that's a lot to process. Have you seen, "Ended Beginnings"? It's such a good book for all sorts of childbearing losses. Laurel initially told me about it, and it might be really healing for you to read. They address traumatic birth experiences pretty thoroughly.

Alissakae--What a story! Thanks for sharing those experiences. Pretty cool that you can stop hemmorrhaging on command!
And what a great example of the importance of the midwife's skills and experience. I am amazed that I didn't ask more questions and get more information and even references when I was finding my midwives. I realize now what a huge decision it is and like I said, I can't believe I didn't do more research. (But, back to that spiritual understanding, it didn't occur to me because I wasn't supposed to find different midwives...)
 
#117 ·
I just wanted to let you ladies know how inspirational your stories and posts have been lately! Well, I suppose they always are, really, but I have particularly enjoyed the last few days. I know I'm more quiet here... I love reading the discussions but don't always feel I have much to add. I thought I might add my story of how dh and I met, in an effort to participate more, though. It isn't quite as inspirational as yours have been, but still a fun story.


I had never really dated the best of guys. I mean they were alright, but definitely not up to the standards I wanted in a spouse. I felt like I was always defending my choice to abstain until marriage. In fact, I never dated an LDS guy till I came to BYU in 1991. And the guy I dated then wasn't much better, lol. But that's a whole other story.
I met DH in the Spring of 1993, about 6 months after going through a very spiritual repentance process for my rebellion of the few years prior. He was so different than all my other boyfriends. He was so GOOD! We met while I was living in a condo that my dad owns south of campus. I was in charge of managing the condo and called my uncle to get a recommendation of a carpet cleaner, since he owns several apartments in the area. He recommended DH by name, because he was very impressed with his work ethic. So, DH showed up and I spent the hour or so following him around, talking to him and watching what he was doing. My roommate commented on how cute he was, and I totally agreed with her! He was too shy to ask me out right then, but after some prodding from his work partner, and my uncle who he cleaned for next, he took my number off my check and called me. It was summer term, so my class load was light right then, so I was spending much of my free time up in SLC at the Family History Library. Since I got back around 10-11 each night, it took a week for him to actually talk to me! And he would never leave a message, lol. When I finally talked to him and told my roommate about it, she said, "THAT must be who has kept calling for the last week!" When we did talk, we had such a connected conversation that we decided to go out the next night, a Monday. We went to dinner, and stayed right up until they closed, talking. They practically had to kick us out! After that, we just saw each other as much as possible. There were only a few days here and there when we didn't see each other, it seemed. I had this guideline in my head I wanted to follow that I had to know a guy at least a year before marrying him, so I was adamant that we wait until the following spring. He didn't really like that, but conceded. But as the time went by, I knew waiting didn't make any sense. So, we were married in January, 8 months after we met. The first time he met my dad (since my family lives in Alaska) was a week before the wedding, when my family came down to participate. My mom and siblings had visited the summer before, so the wedding was the second time meeting them. So, anyway, that's my story.
Thanks for sharing all of yours!
 
#118 ·
I love it when you post, Nemmer. Thanks. That's a GREAT courtship story! About the 1 year thing, I said I'd never marry a guy from Utah and yet my husband spent the greater part of his growing up years in Utah, and came to VA (when we met) FROM Utah. Guess that's why I wasn't interested at first.
[Mothernurture says I missed the whole Utah Mormons discussion on an earlier thread. I'll have to re-read since my dh and I are considering moving back out there someday!] Never say never, right? I also said I'd never get engaged without a spiritual confirmation of my choice, but I did w/ the guy I was engaged to while my dh was on his mission!

Gotta tell ya Alissa--your post about your dh and his experience w/ uncirc has already made an impact. I merely SHOWED it to my dh, and he downloaded Joy of Recirc from the NORM site this morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#119 ·
Somebody awhile back posted asking about our biggest frustrations with nighttime parenting, and I really wanted to bring it up. My biggest problem is, and alwys has been, getting my girls to sleep in the first place. It has always, always been a circus to get Abby to sleep. She is very spirited, and has had a gift for fighting sleep ever since she was tiny. She's had phases where we could only take a drive to get her to sleep, and there's been times where we've had to rock her, but it's taken over an hour, and she would be screaming most of the time.
: There were nights when she was younger where I would nurse her until she was completely asleep for over half an hour. and then as soon as I moved, she would wake up. I remember being so frustrated with naps because I would spend an hour trying to get her to sleep (she was so obviously tired!) and then she would only sleep for forty-five minutes!
There are times even now that it takes over an hour to get her to sleep, and it drives me crazy! What makes things really hard now is that I have two little ones and I'm alone at nights because dh works in the afternoons and evenings. Having the concentrated quiet time that dd #1 needs is impossible when dd #2 is awake and wanting to nurse, which happens every night right around 8:00, which is when dd #1 should be going to bed.
: We are trying to adjust dh's work schedule so that he gets off at 8:30 and can be home by nine to help me with bedtime. I think I would lose it if I had to do it alone every night. Dd #2 isn't easy at night either. She's a really good sleeper once she gets to sleep, but some nights it has taken hours to get her sleeping. She doesn't like to nurse to sleep, so we've been taking nice long walks around the neighborhood with dd in the sling. I got the funniest look the other night from someone passing me. (Granted, in my pj's, bare feet, and a baby in a sling, I probably looked pretty funny!) I'm hoping that when these girls get a little older, they will inherit their dad's gift of being able to fall asleep anywhere, at a moment's notice!
And this is a little bit
T, but I just have to say how much I admire all of you with two or more kids. Working with two little ones and trying to meet both their needs is one of the hardest things, physically, emotionally and spiritually that I have ever done. (Today has been a really rough day, and dh won't be home for another 2 hours!)

The how we met stories are really fun! Here's ours:

The summer before I was a senior in college, I was a counselor at a summer camp in Michigan. I got involved with a guy there that I had known from my singles ward, but it ended really painfully. I came home from camp to find, literally, all my girlfriends were engaged or married. After the ugly relationship ended, I swore off guys forever. I had been involved with several relationships that had ended, and I was tired of searching and wanting the perfect relationship. I really wanted to go to grad school, and I decided to spend my senior year completely focused on my violin and getting into graduate school. I had moved right before I left for the summer, so when I got back, I started attending a singles ward that I had never been to before. I was really hesitant about it- I was so determined that I didn't want to date or be distracted from my goals, but I also knew that if I didn't start doing stuff with my singles ward, I would never be able to talk to anyone that wasn't engaged or married! By November, I was really involved in the graduate school stuff- I had packets of stuff from schools all over the country, I had picked my first five choices of schools, I was planning an audition trip, and I had even given out letters of recommendations to my professors to fill out.

One Sunday, one of my roommates convinced me to go with her to ward prayer- basically a devotional followed by a social time. I was sitting around feeling awkward because my roommate had ditched me to be with her fiancee, and I started talking to one of the guys sitting next to me. It was typical small talk- where are you from, what's your major, etc. When I told him I was majoring in violin performance, his eyes got all big and he said "Will you marry me?" Turns out he had been to the symphony the night before for the first time, and he was completely mezmerized by the violins. I kind of rolled my eyes inwardly and went on with the conversation.

A few weeks later, I was feeling all by myself in a combined meeting with the elder/RS and saw Tom. I remembered his name, and went and asked if I could sit by him. (During this meeting he said that he couldn't take his eyes off me, and has this "feeling" that he had always thought he would identify with the girl he would marry.) After the meeting, he asked me if I wanted to go dancing with him sometime. I was really hesitant, and kept trying to get out of it- first because I am a terrible dancer, and second, because I hadn't been on a date since I got home from Michigan and didn't really want to start. We talked for a minute, and he asked if I would go if we went to a comedy club instead. Finally, I thought that one date couldn't really hurt, and that it might actually be fun.

We went out that Saturday night- we doubled with his cousin and his cousin's girlfriend. After we dropped them off, we ended up in my driveway talking for hours and hours. He was being extremely forward- he told me on the way home that he thought I was the kind of girl that he could spend the rest of his life with. I kept telling him that he was crazy, and he kept playing all these romantic country songs and singing to me. We ended up kissing that night (He kissed me first- an argument we still have to this day!
) and I think I went to bed about three in the morning. The next day we went to church and both pretended that nothing had really happened so that we wouldn't start the rumor mill going. That night I fed him dinner (even though he had already ate and was being too polite to tell me!) and we went to temple square and walked around holding hands. We went out Monday night and went driving- we had a big discussion about what was going on, and how vulnerable we both felt, and I think by the time he dropped me off that night I knew we were going to get married. He proposed to me on the next Saturday night, after dating for a week. Boy, did we create a stir in our singles ward the next day! I felt right about it, but really got a spiritual confirmation the next week, when a priesthood blessing told me directly that we needed to get married and couldn't progress any further without each other.

It's pretty amazing how the Lord works. I think He knew that if Tom would have been any slower in purusing me or stating his feelings for me that I would have bagged the whole idea of a realtionship in favor of grad school- I had been in way too many relationships that went nowhere because the guy was too afraid of what was going to happen. We ended up taking a trip back to Illinois to meet his parents the week that I had planned to take my audition trip, and we were married four months later, in March, the week after my senior violin recital.


Thanks for letting me relive all these memories! DH is going to get a bg hug and kiss when he gets home! Who's next?
 
#120 ·
Stacymom: I can totally relate on this issue. Sleep has always been very difficult for my high needs, high energy ds who is now "3 3/4 years old" (that's what he tells people)... he'll be 4 in November. Anyway, sleep for naps, sleep for bedtime have always been a struggle. I can understand how hard this must be for you with your new little nursing dd, especially with your dh working during bedtime.

Now that I think back on it, we had a tremendous blessing given to us when our dd was born last July 27th. Our ds actually went to bed by himself with virtually NO struggle for the first month of his baby sister's life. There is no logical explanation to this break in the challenging sleep times except divine intervention. As soon as I had healed from the birth and was starting to get around more, his difficulty with sleep resumed.

His sleep problems started at birth. In some ways it has been a blessing because it gave us the opportunity to AP (we started cosleeping right from the start since he wouldn't sleep in a bassinet). We thought the sleep issues were just due to his reflux but once the reflux resolved completely (by 14 months), his sleep problems continued.

Adjusting your dh's work schedule would be wonderful, if it's at all possible. Hang in there! It does get somewhat easier after the younger child is nursing less frequently... just hard to hold out until then!

I do have a friend who had to just let her oldest child (a challenging dd) crash wherever (often the living room floor)/whenever she could because her husband (a TV producer) had to work nights (until 11pm). So she and her kids were on a late schedule (not going to bed until 10-11pm) to fit her husband's work schedule until her oldest child started school and had to be on an earlier schedule. Sometimes it might take adjusting the entire family's schedule to accommodate the primary breadwinner's schedule in order for that partner to be home to help with bedtime.
 
#121 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by ldsmama
About the 1 year thing, I said I'd never marry a guy from Utah ...
Oh, there's another one! I swore I'd never marry a guy from Utah, and DS is not only from Utah, but from Utah farmer heritage. *sigh* I also swore I'd never live in Utah, and where am I?
:

Quote:
Originally posted by ldsmama
Gotta tell ya Alissa--your post about your dh and his experience w/ uncirc has already made an impact. I merely SHOWED it to my dh, and he downloaded Joy of Recirc from the NORM site this morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm curious about this too! Recently DH and I discussed circ and finally agreed to never circ another son. I read "The Case Against Circumcision" to him and I think he was very affected by it. He was thinking about it enough for a few days that he even talked to his parents about it, explaining to them our reasons for coming to that decision and actually persuading (for lack of a better word) them to agree with us! But anyway, one of his comments that night we read it was about wanting his foreskin back.
At the time, I didn't know how that could ever be possible, and thought a surgical procedure would be the only way. So I sadly commented that I didn't think that would work. Now I wonder if he'd be interested in trying this restoration, but I don't know how to bring it up to him without making him feel inadequate, kwim? My hormonal lack of libido issues already make him feel somewhat inadequate, or somewhat to blame for that lack. Any suggestions for a conversation starter? I've perused the NORM site a little and think he might like reading some of it, but bringing it up sensitively seems to be my hurdle right now.
 
#122 ·
Wow, I've been out of town for a week, and look at all I've missed! I just had to chime in on the "how we met" discussion because I missed the last one.

I was the shy girl who people thought was stuck up, and my dh was the first person I ever dated even semi-seriously, and I was 25 years old. I was getting ready to graduate w/ my bachelor's, I'd been on a mission, and I really felt like I'd done everything I needed to do with my life up until that point except for getting married. I honestly felt that it was time for me to get married, but I had no idea how that could happen because like I said, I had a lot of first dates with guys that I couldn't imagine having a second date with. So, the only thing I knew to do was to pray about it. I started praying for help in developing relationships with males.

At the time, I was the ward inservice leader and it was my job to select people to take the teacher development class in Sunday School. James was teaching priesthood, so he was an obvious choice to be in the class, even though I found out later that he'd already taken it several times. A month or so after the class started, I was walking down the hall after church when James came up and put his arm around me and chatted a little bit. Dh was a real flirt and did this type of thing with lots of girls in the ward, but for some reason, this struck me, and I thought to myself, "Does he like me?" (He told me later that he had no special interest in me at all at that time--he was just being friendly.) Something just clicked with me, and from that moment on, I started to become *very* interested and to have feelings for him. I had never given him a second thought before.

Well, I didn't know what to do, so I went home and prayed and asked the Lord that if James Glade was really interested in me, he would be given the courage to ask me out or let me know in some way. Two days later, he called and asked me out on a double date! I was floored! I thought for sure that this meant that we would probably soon be an item, because of my prayer. (I found out later that he again wasn't particularly interested in me, he just needed a date and thought I would be fun.) I was so nervous about this date, because I guess deep down I knew it was really important even though I didn't verbalize that to myself. So, we went out to a Christmas concert, had a great time, and I was convinced because of my prayer and a priesthood blessing I'd had the day before that this was it, it was just meant to be.

Then came the bombshell. A week later at church, I overheard someone mention that James Glade was going to be moving to Las Vegas to go to school. I'd had no idea! He'd never mentioned this during out date. But now he would be leaving in several weeks, and I had no clue how this relationship (which I felt in my heart was supposed to progress) would progress. I actually got up the nerve to call and say goodbye to him, which sounds like a small thing, but for a shy person like me, this took soooooo much courage!

I went home to Arizona for Christmas break, all the time wondering how I could continue a friendship with James long-distance. And yet, a feeling kept creeping into my heart that he would not actually be moving. I tried to ignore that feeling and tell myself that it was crazy, of course he was moving and I needed to deal with it.

Well, I got back from Christmas break and was sitting in a ward council meeting that first week when someone casually mentioned that James was not going to be moving to Las Vegas after all. My heard skipped several beats! It was the second or third distinct instance of me receiving personal revelation about some aspect of this relationship. I was just blown away.

(Insert what happened to James during this time, because it's equally amazing! He was supposed to be going to nursing school and I believe he had even been accepted into the program. He had gone down to Vegas just before Christmas to get things in order to begin the program--he'd been trying to get into a nursing school for 5 years (!) with no success so there was a lot riding on this. He'd just met with his advisor and went back to his hotel to prepare to leave the next day. She called him that morning and said that she needed to talk with him urgently. She then told him that she could not explain why, but she had a strong feeling that he was not supposed to be there! (She was not LDS and had no concept of the workings of the Spirit.) James of course was devastated. But she just kept saying that the feeling that he was in the wrong place was so strong that she couldn't go back on it, even though on paper, everything looked perfect for him to begin the nursing program.

So James came back home, and it was a very dark time for him because yet again, his school plans had been wrecked. He didn't have any of the feelings about me that I'd had about him.

When I found out James had not moved, I was so excited and convinced that we were on the fast track to dating, but unfortunately, it took him a few more months to figure it out. This was a very hard time for me, as I was feeling prompted but had to sit and wait for him. The adversary worked hard against me too and I was an emotional wreck. (Keep in mind that we'd only had one date and I had no concrete reason to believe that there would be another one.) I have felt many times that this time of waiting was meant to prepare me in a small way for the waiting we would have to do for our first baby. This time was so hard for me, yet taught me so many lessons about having faith and trusting the Lord, and that spiritual promptings really do come to pass in the Lord's time. I relied on those lessons learned a lot while we tried to have children.

By the Sunday before Valentine's Day, I knew that I had to go out on a limb and do something to let him know of my interested. You will all probably laugh because this seems so simple, but my "putting myself out there" consisted of simply making myself initiate a conversation at a ward "linger-longer" for probably less than five minutes! But for me it seemed harder than parting the Red Sea!

Then came Valentine's Day. I was depressed because yet another Valentine's Day was going by without me having anything romantic to celebrate. I was supposed to be practicing the organ, but I was so down that I decided to go home and take a nap. The day before, I had been so discouraged that I'd had to have a priesthood blessing. Anyway, I was home with my roommate, and we heard a knock at the door. I peeked around the corner as my roommate answer it just in time to see that it was James. Somehow, I knew that he didn't want me to see him, so I stayed in the other room. Then my roommate brought in the flowers and pie sent by "Cupid"! Then, my roomate took me all over campus getting all my other roommates out of their classes to tell them my news. Since I wasn't supposed to know who sent them, I had my roommate deliver a bold message to "Cupid" telling him that I was pretty sure who he was and I was *really* interested in getting to know him better. It still took another three weeks or so before he finally asked me out again, and this time it was for real. We went to see the movie "Quiz Show", which I really don't remember anything about, because I was too busy thinking about the guy next to me holding my hand! (I'd never held hands before...)

From this point on, things moved really fast. Two weeks later he proposed (sort of...). He'd been to as priesthood meeting where they talked about marriage, listening to the Spirit, etc., and he came home and we went for a drive while he talked in a lot of cirles about his feelings and about how at his age (31) he didn't want to waste time dating unless it was going to go somewhere. And by the end of the evening, I said, "So is this a proposal?" (To this day, he is still embarrassed that I wasn't even sure he'd proposed or not.) And then, after all those events of the last three or four months, I told him that I couldn't say yes yet and needed time to think and pray about it! (I'm pretty anal that way...a little too thorough sometimes.)

I kept him on pins for a week. I did everything--I prayed, I fasted, I went to the temple, I visited with my bishop and got a blessing, and finally on Sunday, I went to counsel with a member of the stake presidency to whom I was quite close. He listened carefully to my story, and then said, "Well, what are you expecting, the angel Moroni to come down and tell you what to do???" He said that he thought I knew the answer already, and that I needed to use my faith to take that step into the darkness and that the witness would be there. So I decided that even though I didn't know *for sure*, I would tell James that night that I would marry him. I was very scared. But, we went for another drive, and I said "yes" and immediately afterward received the witness of peace that I'd been waiting for.

We were engaged five months. In two weeks, we will have been married 8 years.
 
#124 ·
Can I just jump in here? You ladies are such an inspiration to me and I love reading your stories. (I've been lurking for some time now)

A little about me:

I am 22, live in NJ, married for just over 2 years, and have an 18 month old DS.

I joined the church when I was 16 (got baptized on my birthday) and went inactive from the time I was 19 until just recently. I have never "intended" to go inactive and certainly not for so long but now that I am back I know that this is the upbringing that I want for my DS (and future kids) and I need it in my life too!

I'll probably go back to lurking since reading about your families is so wonderful to me. (I am the only member in my entire family, my parents were horrified when I joined the church and my DH is "not ready" for church yet!)

That's me in nutshell, take care.

Jenn
 
#126 ·
Welcome, JennC! I've only been on for a few months and have gotten a TON out of chatting with this great group of gals already! Be reassured that you're not the only convert or "part-member family" person on this thread. That can be tough. But I admire you for coming back to the church, and hope you find what you need in your ward and on this thread.

I am LOVING all these "how we met" stories, and think it would be fun to institute loml (love of my life) as a possible alternative to dh for any who feel so inclined (my dh said that's one used on the woodworking bb he has participated in--that and swmbo--she who must be obeyed--not quite so flattering but funny nontheless.)

I, too, laughed at the Moroni thing--particularly because the loml has often said that revelation and testimonyfor him has never included "Moroni coming down and doing a tap dance for me."

I don't remember who it was and I can't find it now but someone in an earlier post mentioned guilt from premarital experience made it hard for her to enjoy sex now and I just wanted to put in a pitch for talking to your bishop about it if it's still bothering you. Even if it was technically "cleared up" before, it can be nice to have a "judge in Israel" declare that the Lord "remembers no more" our transgressions. kwim? Just my own experience.

Kindredspirit talked about fears and worries about her pregnancy... I had a premonition that we would be in the hospital w/ Talia and carried that thought with me into my labor. And I think it helped prepare my mind for what followed even though my interpretation (for the birth) had been incorrect. But during both pregnancies I also had a ton of worries anf fears that didn't materialize, too. And in my childbirth classes, I've found that pregnancy worries w/ my clients are the norm, and it can be a relief to know that most pregant women worry about birth defects, possible miscarriage or still birth, interventions, etc etc etc etc. Birthing From Within says "Worry is the work of pregnancy." It clues us into areas we need and want to explore, get info, make plans, or do emotional work which will answer, satisfy, tame, or resolve our fears.

But even when I'm not pregnant I tend to be a worrier. So it's been a challenge for me to learn to distinguish between what is just my own overactive imagination and fear, and what is a real warning or preparation by the Lord. So far, I think the best key to helping me learn to discern has been the fear vs peace test. After all, don't most Heavenly messengers say 'Be not afraid'? (Well, to folks who are TRYING to do the right thing. Otherwise, they say "Fear and tremble"!) And even when I thought about the hospital premonition, it wasn't w/ fear or dread. It was w/ the reassurance that all would be well if that was the way it went down. And ultimately, it has been--and would have been even if she hadn't survived her ALTEs. So I can understand what Katherine was saying about knowing she was supposed to have those midwives, etc., just like I see the purposes in Talia's hospitalization, even though I now realize that my own anxiousness and choice of having my membranes stripped may well have gotten us there in the first place!
 
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top