Mothering Forum banner

LDS Mamas #12

6K views 207 replies 20 participants last post by  leavesarebrown 
#1 ·
Here tis. Did I do it right?
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the two book recommendations.

Stacy--I think everyone read LaHaye cause it was the only book on the subject in BYUs bookstore! And I would guess in Deseret book stores until these few recent ones by LDS authors. Oh, and Human Intimacy by Victor Brown.

Ldsapmom--no, I believe the statistic was how many women never had orgasms during intercourse at all, ever. I'll see if I can round up the exact stat (from Kitzinger's Womens Experience of Sex or this other orgasm book I read last year). Except I think I lent the book Kitzinger book out.

Lisa1--yeah, the sugar thing is obnoxious. They actually gave out WHOLE BAGS of Skittles to each little nursery kid not long ago in our ward as a treat. Teachers since then have done a better job of checking w/ parents about appropriate snacks or object lessons. Good thing since many of the kids in our ward seem to have food allergies (milk & cheese, wheat, nuts...) I don't think it is rude or self-righteous to say "Oh, thanks, but we don't give them sugar" or simply "No, thank you."

youngnhappy--how do you ever get a break with or without hubby? Or have you found that you haven't needed breaks?

So back to the original q which started this whole intimacy discussion. How do you other co-sleepers negotiate private time--especially when night nursing?
 
#5 ·
Quella,
thanks for your comments! it's great to hear that the discussion is useful to posters. Where in Oregon are you? I'm up in the Seattle suburbs.

Ok, here's a radical question: does anyone know of any human sexuality/intimacy books written by women (LDS or not)? I feel a book written by a woman would be more helpful, in many ways.

I think I read parts of the Victor Brown book but didn't find it all that helpful (it's been awhile so I can't remember all that it contained).

ldsmama: I have your Kitzinger book and will look up your question if you can repost it.... thanks. on your question to youngnhappymamma: I have the same dilemma... finding time with partner (sans children) without having a lot of acceptable options for childcare....
 
#7 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by mothernurture
does anyone know of any human sexuality/intimacy books written by women (LDS or not)?
I have one called "The Purity and the Passion" by Wendy Watson, a professor of marriage and family therapy at BYU. It focuses more on the spiritual truths that help us find more fulfillment in marital intimacy. The only downside is that the author is not married. There were many great insights in there for me, as I'm sure that someone who has counseled hundreds of couples would have learned a few things. But, there were some parts where I thought that she just didn't completely "get it", KWIM?
 
#8 ·
When my children were infants and sleeping in our bed every night, I would nurse the baby to sleep and then dh and I could be intimate. We were actually intimate on one side of the bed while baby slept on the other side. We have a king size bed. Sometimes dh would have to wake me up b/c I tend to fall asleep while nursing in bed. But that was okay. When the babies were little we definitely had to schedule intimate time. Occasionally, now that the children are older and in their own bedroom we do enjoy some spontenaity (sp?).

After the baby was six months or so I would move the baby to a bouncy chair (which I understand not all of you have) or her cradle which was at the side of my bed so she could sleep undisturbed while dh and I had time together. Both girls were moved to their room when they were a year old.

ldsmama- the blushing smilie: right next to the window where I type my posts there is a smilie box that has 15 smilies. Just below the box it says, "Showing: 15 of 125" then there is a [Get More] link in blue just below that. When I click on the [get more] a new small window opens and there are about 110 more smilies to choose from. I maximize the window so I can see most of the smilies at once. Depending on how fast your internet connections is it may take a few minutes for all the smilies in the new window to load. The blusing smilies is 13th down the left column.
Click on the smilie then it'll take you back to the post your are typing. I have found that you cannot insert smilies. They only come up at the end of all that I've typed. So if I want to insert one after I have typed more words I have to cut the words from where I want to insert the smilie then paste them back after I have chosen the smilie and inserted it. Does that make sense. If there is an easier way someone let me know. I am definitely not an expert on smilies or the computer for that matter.
 
#10 ·
I do not wish to offend anybody, first off, but I am used to helping people, especially moms, in very personal places in their lives -- I try to take a more clinical, tell-you-my-history-if-it-may-help approach. I do acknowledge the sanctity and perfect design HF had when he made our bodies the way he did. I also know the purest fruit which can come, and the greatest blessing even aside from the bonding between husband and wife, is the ability to grow, nourish, nurture, and bear children. That being said, sometimes I am "too much" for very private moms. If you find me as such please keep in mind that is not my intention. If anyone is interested, I posted an answer to a mom on another site when she asked a question about orgasms. I thought of posting the link here, but if you are interested, pm me. I feel awkward trying to balance between showing the proper respect I feel on the subject, lest you think me sacreligious, and trying to carry on a conversation
...
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by ldsapmom
the greatest blessing even aside from the bonding between husband and wife, is the ability to grow, nourish, nurture, and bear children.
The greatest barrier for me when it comes to marital intimacy has been being infertile. I cannot even describe how much it impacts body image and feelings of womanliness. It's kind of interesting because most couples struggle with intimacy after the children come--for me having a child and finally being a mom has been the most freeing thing possible. The logistical challenges of intimacy w/ a baby are nothing to me in comparison. Even though I did not physically my son, I feel different physically. Maybe more moms need to discuss how to integrate these two major purposes of sex--childbearing/bonding--instead of finding them at odds. (How you do that, I couldn't tell you--it just kind of happened for me.)
 
#12 ·
Lisa, I hoped that would not offend you -- and I took a leap posting it sensing that you are really not far from any mother who has been pregnant and given birth. To me, the miracle is the love which comes after the baby. Yes, it is miraculous that our bodies were designed to house and birth babies, but the real joy and awe to me, the true miracle of birth to me, is the love, unending love, which comes after the body has done its work. The beauty in my mind is not in the way we can bring forth life, but the way that life shapes us after the fact. I do feel sad for moms who have struggled/struggle with infertility. It is such an unnatural thing to deal with, especially as Latter-Day Saints. We are taught to multiply and replenish the earth -- what a contradiction! But HF has provided other ways to become mothers.

I had a dear friend struggle with this for years. She always felt they just needed to do x, y, and z and then they would get pregnant. Nothing. Then a, b, and c. Nothing. After many years she finally asked herself this question: Do I want to be pregnant? Or do I want to be a parent? Of course she knew the answer. Four months later they adopted two brothers aged 2 and 4. Six months later they received a call from the boys' social worker saying their birth mom just had a baby girl, and would they be interested in adopting her too? They said yes, and voila, instant family! They still hope someday they might get pregnant, but they are not hanging their hat on that.

Quote:
Maybe more moms need to discuss how to integrate these two major purposes of sex--childbearing/bonding--instead of finding them at odds. (How you do that, I couldn't tell you--it just kind of happened for me.)
I don't think I have had a problem in this area, because I have to say the childbearing seems to either be coupled with or superceeded by the bonding aspect (the bonding seems to be the 'here and now' motivation, while the childbearing seems to be in the back of my mind).
 
#13 ·
I'm reading Women's Sexual Passages right now, and I want to recommend it to every woman I know! The author, Elizabeth Davis, is a midwife who is very in tune with all aspects of female sexuality, including spirituality. It's really not just about sex but about what it means to be female--I've found it very empowering and uplifting as well as informative. She does mention lesbian relationships, premarital sex, and masturbation, but not graphically; I don't think any of you would be offended. I especially liked the sections on postpartum sexuality and "dancing with your hormones." It presents a very positive view of all aspects of our sexuality; a nice change from how most people refer to menstruation as "the curse" and women with PMS as "crazy."
 
#16 ·
Wow! Wish I'd stayed on longer last night! Guess I couldn't have stayed on long enough since I'm on the east coast. We found a great holistic fertility book by Niravi Payne that opened my understanding and body awareness (along w/ some others). Didn't make baby showers and that sort of thing easier, but I definitely felt like I had some insight into they feelings I was having about fertility and my body, and came to terms with and actually looked forward to (in some ways) a life serving in other ways besides parenting (at the time we did not have the resources or desire to consider adoption). I'm embarassed to admit this, but once I did get pregnant after that, I was ANGRY at Heavenly Father! I felt like I'd been played a mean trick. I'm over that, now (enough so that we had another!), and feel grateful for the extra time my husband and I had before becoming parents (and between kids).

Ldsapmom--I wasn't offended by anything you said (actually, I laughed as I read it). I was just trying to point out that it might not be safe to assume that those things which make our individual relationships satisfying are necessarily the answer for other women.

Now, for a couple older questions. While I used to feel that way about the JS story, if you think about it, it isn't any more fabulous than the stories in the Bible, or the Koran, or other religious texts for that matter. If God could appear to Muhamed (and I believe he may have), or Moses, or the apostles, why not Joseph Smith? I think the big conceptual hurdle for many Christians but particularly those w/ closer ties to the Catholic church is the idea of an anthropromorphic god--with "parts and passions". Mormonism is realy unique is taking the "in the image of the gods male and female" literally.

And circ--Thanks to whomever posted the two anti-circ scriptures. But those only answer the question of spiritual necessity (or not, rather). Circ can still be argued on other grounds. Like the social implications/ locker room scenario (which was compelling to me before the fact) and the mis-informed supposed health issue (my son is intact--and I just bought the book "What your doctor may not tell you about circumcision by Paul Fleiss). But this leads to the next topic--research and using research to make and support our parenting choices.

I believe attachment parenting (co sleeping, baby wearing, breastfeeding, responding quickly to crying) has literally saved my high-risk baby's life by helping to regulate and keep her breathing, to help her neurological development along, to reduce her SIDS risk, to keep aspiration milk from irritating her passageways hence preventing pneumonia, and to give her positive feelings about her body in the aftermath of a highly traumatic and invasive hospitalization during her first week of life. And I think AP is well-supported by research. But I still think relying on research alone is faulty. After all, some specialists use research to support campaigns AGAINST co-sleeping, for example. And to justify so many invasive medical and social practices (think of childbirth alone!!!!). That is all I meant. I ask you this: if a study or body of research seems to contradict gospel principles, do you view the research skeptically, or the gospel principle skeptically?
 
#18 ·
I would like to comment on the topic of marital initimacy in relationship with being a parent. It took me a good while to connect the two, which is funny because marital intimacy is what made me a parent!
I finally came to a personal epiphany about accepting the circle of life. From puberty to marriage to intimacy to giving birth to nursing and so on. All functions, experience and attitudes of our body, mind, and spirit that draw us into this beautiful circle of life.
I think it has helped me have amazing experiences in childbirth because I am more able to accept my body, to feel the connectedness of my body to the powers that God has given us.

With that frame of mind I was finally able to feel good about my sexuality. Being intimate with my husband didn't mean I had to forget I was a mommy, it was so freeing!
I still needed to jump up and take care of a wakeful baby in the middle of a 'moment', but I could go back (or pardon me, nurse while, only a few times) we continued.
I have struggled, going back and forth between feeling that sex is a beautiful, righteous gift to... something that is an enigma and I don't understand how I should feel.
I think it stems from having NO positive reinforcement growing up about the wonder of being a woman. My mom didn't even tell me about my period and she had 6 girls! I forgive her, her childhood was very hard.
One thing I absolutely love about being married to dh is that he has helped my joy in my womanhood. I can't tell you how much that means to me. Despite the stretch marks and post-partum breasts, etc...things are better than they ever have been. And he makes me feel so happy to be a woman and a mother.

I'm not sure if this the correct idea, maybe I need some redirection--- but don't feel it underminds the sanctity/sacredness of marital intimacy to learn about it (in a positive and righteous way.) I have really enjoyed talking with my sister at great length and detail (I call her the Birth goddess
) about intimacy. We don't talk about the details of our husbands, it's mostly ideas and feeling and from our points of view.
That lds intimacy book I mentioned says that for lds youth we are told no, you better not, and don't even think about it! Then we get married and we have to turn this switch on and the counsel is now "you better"! I laughed at this because I really struggled with that transition.

Well, I've gone on and on here. I either read and don't post often, or post a huge long message that I fear I may bore you!

Thanks for letting me do this,
Quincy

ps--mothernurture, I'm about 20 miles southeast of Portland in a small, funny logging town. Is your suburb south of seattle?
 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by ldsmama
But having been on such a fertility rollercoaster, I can't imagine opening myself up to that again due to the emotional havoc it reaks.
I can totally relate to this feeling. We are actually cautiously beginning to ttc #2 "the old-fashioned way", and keeping my emotional health in check is often at the forefront of my mind. I can totally understand why you want to stop at two.

I have had many moments of feeling confident and peaceful that my body is capable of conceiving with the right help (a naturopath we've found--just have to come up with the $$$). I can thank MDC for giving me such a renewed perspective and reinforcing the idea that my body, too, is a wonderful creation and that I can enhance it's function rather than fight it and hate it. I still have moments when fear and doubt creep in, though.
 
#20 ·
Quote:
I'm embarassed to admit this, but once I did get pregnant after that, I was ANGRY at Heavenly Father! I felt like I'd been played a mean trick.
I can relate to this from the other end. It took us over a year before we conceived Jacob. During that time I became inactive, basically. I would not have said so in the middle of it, but every Sunday I made up some excuse not to go to Church. The real reason was it hurt me to see all those little children climbing on their parents during Sac Meeting. And yes, friends and family were having babies left and right. But it put me in a different place. First I was worried there was something wrong with me. It got so bad that at one point I thought, "If I cannot have children, what is my point to being here?" Slowly though, my thought process changed. This was during the time that my good friend adopted her 3 children (I mentioned that in a previous post). We hung out all the time. I really fell in love with her kids -- they had been raised in a group home most of their little lives, and the thought kept coming to me that there were more like them who needed homes. Pretty soon I was thinking more about adopting than about getting pregnant. I even went in during the hardest part of it all and talked to my Branch President -- a very kind, spiritual man. He said he could not say whether I would have kids or not, but he was so sympathetic and understanding. The first month I decided to go down and start adoption proceedings, we got pregnant. I really feel there was a reason for all of that. I really feel like someday we will blessed to add children to our family through adoption. If we had just gotten pregnant without any problems, I don't think I would have readied myself like I did for a future adoption.

After finding out I was pregnant, I phoned my Branch President. I told him I felt like a spoiled childe -- like I had been begging HF to get pregnant. Then I stopped going to Church. Then I got pregnant (of course the time is drawn out more). I told him I felt ashamed at the way I had acted. He said it was still a blessing and if I felt bead about the way I acted, there was only one person to talk to about that.

It was a dreaded dilemma when two specialists recommended that we have Jacob circ'd at 3. What made it harder was Dr. Fleiss actually recommended against it (he was a consult for me). But it boiled down to knowing Dr. Fleiss was a pediatrician and these other two doctors were pediatric urologists (even though Dr. Fleiss was the only one who called me at home!). One of the ped ur was very pro 'intactness' (if that's a word
) too, so I trusted their combined recommendation.

Just to clear the air, I do know that what works for me and what we enjoy in my private bedroom is not the pattern all others must follow to have great sex. I know every body[/] is different. For me to act like I know what would work well for you would be a marked personal error of my exercising any intelligence or sound judgement. Like I stated (seriously) before (and in a pm to another mom, sorry for the repeat) I am used to helping women in ways some might not understand or feel comfortable with. It can be awkward to place my hands on a woman's breast, but there are times when this must be done (I was just helping a mother figure out the Marmet Technique of hand expression). I also do belly casts for moms. Just last week I was holding a flashlight to a good friend's perineum as her midwife checked and repaired tears (and I was comforted by how similar we all look in that region). I am very relaxed in this area because real women come to me for real help. If I act tense and uncomfortable, how can I help? How would they feel comfortable?

So, I am not saying my way is the best way; I am sharing what we have found works for us. I know as an LLL Leader offering personal experience is not always a good idea because people feel you are saying: You have a problem, I had a problem. This is how I fixed my problem. That is how your problem can be fixed. Period. No more on the subject. Well, if a mom then tries that and it doesn't work, what then? Does she feel like a failure? Does she go back to the same person or does she find someone else to help?

As a Leader I am always trying to find the balance between sharing a personal experience, and choosing not to (when it will help, when it will harm). More times than not, I don't share personal experiences. I should have stuck by the same rule here, but I let my guard down, relaxed, because I thought it would be okay. So I guess what I am trying to say is please forgive me if I said anything that makes anyone uncomfortable. I am sorry. I am done talking about intimacy issues here but I will continue to talk to those moms who have pm'ed me about it.
 
#21 ·
Ldsapmom, I, for one, am very glad for the intimacy issues you and others have discussed. I think we need a safe, supportive forum where we can talk about sexuality.

Now I want to read Heart and Hands--thanks to those who mentioned it!

I have a question--people often ask me why so many Mormon couples have/strive to have numerous children, and I know there are many ways to answer that depending on the person's receptivity, level of spirituality, feelings towards the church in general, etc., but I was wondering how do all of you respond?

thanks
 
#22 ·
ldsapmom: Thanks for sharing your experience. I love to hear about people's challenges and how they overcome or learn from them. You mentioned keeping your personal experiences out of a discussion, and in the context you talk about as a LLL leader or doula or something like that I agree with you. You described very well the reasons that LLL advises leaders to keep their personal stories out of their counseling. But, in a more informal "friend" relationship I think it's valuable to share your stories and history. So please keep sharing yourself! I appreciated learning about what you've been through, and there are so many layers of lessons to be learned from your experience. Thanks for sharing.

Ruthy: What an interesting question you pose. I think the "number of children to have" issue is one that is often misunderstood or misinterpreted by members. Obviously, the church doesn't tell us how many children to have...that's one of the beauties of the church, we are expected and encouraged to make our personal and family decisions based on our individual circumstances. But, on the other hand, we are taught that the family is important and that there are spirits waiting to receive an earthly body. Some people interpret this to mean that they somehow have a responsibility to provide bodies for as many as possible, but based on what the prophets have said I don't think that is the case. They have repeatedly stated that decisions concerning family size must be made prayerfully by each family, with special consideration for the mother since she naturally bears the largest burden in bringing children into the world and caring for them. The Church also does not discourage the use of birth control - again, it is a personal matter to be decided as a couple.
Some of us have large families. I have 8 children (7 living), but it's not because we really planned it that way. Our babies somehow foiled just about every birth control method known to man. If we didn't have the gospel, perhaps we would have had abortions after a failure in birth control or been sterilized.....but because we trust in the Lord we have followed what we feel is right and of COURSE birthed these babies, and we put off sterilization because whenever we contemplated it we had the feeling that it wasn't the time. Now that I have my sweet little toddler, who was born when I was 40 despite my faithful use of the pill, I see that not being sterilized was the right thing. We didn't know it, but our family NEEDED this little boy. HF is so much wiser than we are. So, to make a short thought long, I would say that each family is unique and the size of the family is based both on what the couple believe is best for them, and what HF decides is best for them - combined


Everyone: I also have Heart and Hands and love it. Even if you don't plan on having a homebirth it is a good guide to pregnancy and birth, and an excellent reference. If you go to an OB who makes you feel that pregnancy and birth are "dangerous", you can go home and pick up Heart and Hands and feel good again


I think it's good to have a discussion of sexuality in a respectful way. That's hard to find! Sex and intimacy are so debased in most places. There is a site I go to about circumcision, and I have been attacked there for saying that I believe sex should be reserved for marriage. It's just shocking what some of these people think, for instance that you are somehow "screwing up" your children if you teach them to wait until marriage. It is so refreshing to come here!
 
#23 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by ldsapmom
I am done talking about intimacy issues here but I will continue to talk to those moms who have pm'ed me about it. [/B]
I hope you are not really done talking! I have been loving this discussion. I sense that maybe you are feeling a little bit attacked? I hope it's not because of anything I wrote. I have thoroughly enjoyed hearing everyone's different perspectives on this issue and sharing my own as well. I am usually pretty private, but this has actually been good for me.
 
#24 ·
Quella wrote - "for lds youth we are told no, you better not, and don't even think about it! Then we get married and we have to turn this switch on and the counsel is now "you better"! I laughed at this because I really struggled with that transition."

I can relate to your comment (and believe many LDS young people, maybe especially women? can relate as well). It almost seemed like a psychological hurdle to get past that one day, sex (and other things that lead up to sex) is completely off limits and the next day, it's ok.

My mother, too, is a very conservative woman and did not say even ONE word to me about sex before or after my wedding. The message I received from her silence (and her shameful approach to all things that had to do with womanhood/sexuality, etc) was that our bodies were dirty and that even talking about sex (in a knowledge-seeking way) was unacceptable and even sinful.

Given that background, my goal is to find a way to teach my children about their bodies (being sacred) and the joy that can be found in an emotionally, physically committed (read: marital) relationship without shaming them in any way.

Quella, I loved your comment about the circle of life. It reminded me of a yoga pose, of the same name, my prenatal yoga teacher instructed us in. It is a beautiful reminder of the sanctity of human life, in all its stages...

p.s. we live on the east side of Lake Washington, near Redmond.
 
#26 ·
ldsapmom I'm curious about Jacob's circ since my 3 1/2 yr old son still hasn't retracted. Do you know if that's a prob that might lead to late circumcision? My ped hasn't seemed worried about it, and he hasn't had any infections beyond normal diaper rash-type irritation and swelling (in fact, when we switch from cloth to disposable diapers he does much better). Maybe my answer is in the circumcision book I just got but haven't read yet.
 
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top