July Consensual Living Tribe - Mothering Forums
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Finding your Tribe Archives 2008 > July Consensual Living Tribe
mum21andtwins's Avatar mum21andtwins 01:34 PM 07-06-2008
I hope its ok to start this. The other one got buried and its 26 pages long so i figured a new one would be good.

Consensual Living site
http://www.consensual-living.com/


Consensual living is a process, a philosophy, a mindset by which we seek to live in harmony with our families and community. It involves finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both parties are not only considered but addressed. Everyone’s wants and needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Conflicting wants or needs are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties.

Consensual Living is broad and far reaching. It influences the way we interact with everyone, from our immediate families to our community and the world at large. It is about assigning positive intent and looking for solutions. This can apply in so many arenas. It can change interactions, even if they are historically adversarial.

Current CL threads of interest
A CL sub-forum http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6#post11629916
General CL in the GD Forumhttp://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=890836


Anyone care to join in?

mum21andtwins's Avatar mum21andtwins 05:03 AM 07-07-2008
Please don't make me talk to myself
riversong's Avatar riversong 04:26 PM 07-07-2008
Hi! I'm here, too. I've been part of the CL yahoo group for a while and it's been really valuable. It's kind of slow right now, though.

I feel like I go through periods of really doing well with being consensual and then I revert back to my old ways when I'm tired or stressed. It's less work to just tell my kids what to do or argue with my dh. In the end it's more work, though, because the bad feelings last and affect everyone. It's a struggle for me, but I'm committed to continue working on it. Hearing what other people do in their own families is really helpful to me.
poiyt's Avatar poiyt 05:04 PM 07-07-2008
Hello!

Im so excited to have this forum! dh and I are planning to raise dd and any future children, and adapt our lifestyle to more CL based. I was so worried I would have no support - and though I know our families wont agree, online support is the next best thing!

Does anyone know where I can get Jan Fortune-wood's book in Canada? All the places that I find are in the UK and they wont ship here. Actually...Im trying to find a good book about CL for family to read - and just to have in the house as a daily reminder...but its been so hard to find one!
kacymoose's Avatar kacymoose 05:28 PM 07-07-2008
Poiyt

I'm reading Raising Our Children/Raising Ourselves. While it never mentions Consensual Living, it seems to describe it very nicely.

Anyone else read/reading this?

Karen
dantesmama's Avatar dantesmama 06:30 PM 07-07-2008
:
I'm here too! I'd heard of a CL tribe, and looked for it a few times, but never found it. I learned about consensual living close to a year ago, and we really began to make it work about 6 months ago. Like riversong, I tend to get off-track when I'm tired or stressed, but overall I'm doing better as time goes on. Interestingly, it's much easier to apply CL principles to my relationships with my kids than my relationship with DP.

I subscribe to the Yahoo CL list, but I'm always so behind on my e-mail that I don't usually read the digests until they're a week or two old. I'm excited to have found this tribe!

kacymoose, I've read Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves, and although I liked it, I didn't really find it terribly helpful. It's been a while since I read it, but from what I remember, Naomi Aldort seemed to imply that SALVE just magically solved everything. It didn't strike me as very realistic. Great ideas, great philosophy, but I wish she would have gone further, if that makes any sense. Maybe I'll re-read it and see if I missed anything the first time around. I prefer Pam Leo's Connection Parenting, which I just read a month or two ago. It was very practical and very helpful. I like the idea of kids having "love cups" and "hurt cups" that get filled or depleted - that idea alone makes it so much easier to understand my kids. I also recommend Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child: An Unschooled Life. Radical unschooling and consensual living seem to go hand-in-hand and I love the simple format of her book. Oh, and Scott Noelle at enjoyparenting.com.
mum21andtwins's Avatar mum21andtwins 09:29 AM 07-08-2008
I've not read a cl book. Only have the internet really. we're so low on $$ any money we have spare goes either to housemaintenance or the kids. I do have my bday coming up but then their are so many things on my list that would be more useful

Currently my mayor issue is with DH he will say he'll do one thing and just not do it at all. The twins just found mobility and I'm having a hard time adjusting to it. Especially now my 3y/o thinks that twins are cheap ponys and he should ride their back. All I ask is that he does dishes and he never does them. He will happily spend 3 hours sitting on his butt reading comics and then get annoyed that the compost hasn't been taken out, or there are no clean cups ugh...

If only you could buy patience
kacymoose's Avatar kacymoose 12:19 PM 07-08-2008
I think the part of Raising Our Children that really made sense to me was that so many of the things we do are based on thoughts in our mind. She talks about how many times our thoughts are based on how we were treated as a child or how we are concerned with what others think. One of my biggest struggles is that I parent one way when no one is watching, but then when I am around people, I don't always stay true to my ideals. I am constantly thinking things like "They will think my kids are out of control, they will think I baby the kids, they will think I am too permissive, they will think my kids control me". None of which I should care about, but somehow all this runs through my mind. I don't think her SALVE formula is a magic bullet, and she says it is not. It is just a way to stop and verify if the thought in your mind in authentic or if it is triggered by something else. Actually most of the stuff in the book are things I am already doing - Listening, Validating, giving my kids control.

Another point I found interesting was about power games. Basically playing a pretend game where the child has the power to tell you what to do. This helps the child feel balanced in his position of power because so many times they feel powerless as a child, even despite our efforts to give them control. They can't drive, read, go where they want without assistance from us, or many things can't be achieved without the parents help. Pretending they are in charge gives them a sense of power they need to feel balanced. I have had my kids iniatate these kind of games before, and I never really knew what it was about.
kacymoose's Avatar kacymoose 12:27 PM 07-08-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum21andtwins View Post
Currently my mayor issue is with DH he will say he'll do one thing and just not do it at all. The twins just found mobility and I'm having a hard time adjusting to it. Especially now my 3y/o thinks that twins are cheap ponys and he should ride their back. All I ask is that he does dishes and he never does them. He will happily spend 3 hours sitting on his butt reading comics and then get annoyed that the compost hasn't been taken out, or there are no clean cups ugh...

If only you could buy patience
Have you thought about applying the CL to your DH? He may have some left over issues from childhood about being coerced to do chores, and that is why he doesn't step up and do the dishes. As a mom of twins, I know you don't have time to take care of everything. You might just try listening and validating his feelings when he finds no clean cups. "That is so aggravating when you want something to drink, and there is nothing to drink out of" Don't offer solutions or anything, just validation for his feelings of frustration.
redveg's Avatar redveg 12:50 PM 07-08-2008
Hi, I am very new to this. It sounds fantastic. Any other good books/web sites I can look into? I would love to do more research.
mum21andtwins's Avatar mum21andtwins 06:04 AM 07-09-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by kacymoose View Post
Have you thought about applying the CL to your DH? He may have some left over issues from childhood about being coerced to do chores, and that is why he doesn't step up and do the dishes. As a mom of twins, I know you don't have time to take care of everything. You might just try listening and validating his feelings when he finds no clean cups. "That is so aggravating when you want something to drink, and there is nothing to drink out of" Don't offer solutions or anything, just validation for his feelings of frustration.
I *wish* that was the case however his mum used to be a hardcore hippie never spanked allowed them total freedom and except for school he didn't have to do anything. He wil happily admit he just lazy when we're having a serious chat.
The thing is w yes having a 3y/o and 10m/o twins is hard. /all 3 breastfeed and it wears me down. Then there is the animals that need to be cared for (chickens bunnies piggies and cats) and the more i do the less dh does.
sheesh hear me complain.
blergh life is tough at the moment. My mum was just diagnosed with an incurable form of hodgkins and is in complete denial over it pretending shes not dying and I'm in a different country to her so I don't feel like i can do anything constructive.
Dh just had a week holiday but the house is in a worse state than before. and ds1 has croup so I was up all night.......
this too shall pass and soon things will be easier again. 'Its hard to remain in the moment and I find it difficult to be the parent I want to be.
schellie's Avatar schellie 01:11 PM 07-09-2008
Subbing....

This is very interesting to me. I REALLY want to try and make this work in our family.
kacymoose's Avatar kacymoose 01:54 PM 07-09-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum21andtwins View Post
I *wish* that was the case however his mum used to be a hardcore hippie never spanked allowed them total freedom and except for school he didn't have to do anything. He wil happily admit he just lazy when we're having a serious chat.
The thing is w yes having a 3y/o and 10m/o twins is hard. /all 3 breastfeed and it wears me down. Then there is the animals that need to be cared for (chickens bunnies piggies and cats) and the more i do the less dh does.
sheesh hear me complain.
blergh life is tough at the moment. My mum was just diagnosed with an incurable form of hodgkins and is in complete denial over it pretending shes not dying and I'm in a different country to her so I don't feel like i can do anything constructive.
Dh just had a week holiday but the house is in a worse state than before. and ds1 has croup so I was up all night.......
this too shall pass and soon things will be easier again. 'Its hard to remain in the moment and I find it difficult to be the parent I want to be.
Wow - you really have a lot going on! BF twins & 3 year old - awesome
And I thought breastfeeding just my twins was tough. Actually, I'm a little jealous, because my dd that is 2 years older than the twins was very jealous of the nursing relationship. How great it would have been to let her in on it too. Sadly she weaned at 4 months due to my lack of knowledge and no support with our breastfeeding struggles.

It is discouraging to hear that hubby had complete freedom as a child and now refuses to help out. I'm working hard to give my kids the freedom to choose whether or not they help. I don't want to be obsessed with outcomes, but I don't want my kids to grow up not being inclined to help when they see their partner struggling to balance so many things. So I am curious, what do you think leads to his laziness?
dantesmama's Avatar dantesmama 01:56 PM 07-09-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum21andtwins View Post
I *wish* that was the case however his mum used to be a hardcore hippie never spanked allowed them total freedom and except for school he didn't have to do anything. He wil happily admit he just lazy when we're having a serious chat.
The thing is w yes having a 3y/o and 10m/o twins is hard. /all 3 breastfeed and it wears me down. Then there is the animals that need to be cared for (chickens bunnies piggies and cats) and the more i do the less dh does.
sheesh hear me complain.
blergh life is tough at the moment. My mum was just diagnosed with an incurable form of hodgkins and is in complete denial over it pretending shes not dying and I'm in a different country to her so I don't feel like i can do anything constructive.
Dh just had a week holiday but the house is in a worse state than before. and ds1 has croup so I was up all night.......
this too shall pass and soon things will be easier again. 'Its hard to remain in the moment and I find it difficult to be the parent I want to be.

mum21andtwins's Avatar mum21andtwins 02:07 PM 07-09-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by kacymoose View Post
So I am curious, what do you think leads to his laziness?
Don't know but just throwing some thought up in the air.
He doesn't want to and prefers to play rpg on the pc
total freedom as a child with a mother who was as undomestic as you can be
thus not showing him what ab adult does?
before meeting me the most dished he had was his mug for tea a bowl for cereall a spoon for tea & often the same spoon was used for cereal and maybe a fork for his take away. So he never in his life has done any dishes really. Now with 5 people to feed there is normally at least 2 pots the twins share a plate since they dont eat much but compored to before a lot. Maybe he's overwhelmed i dunno...

I'm sorry you & dd didn't have the nursingrelationship you deserved
Thanks for the kind words :
mum21andtwins's Avatar mum21andtwins 02:07 PM 07-09-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantesmama View Post
thank you
boigrrrlwonder's Avatar boigrrrlwonder 03:59 PM 07-09-2008
subbing
princesstutu's Avatar princesstutu 04:57 PM 07-09-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum21andtwins View Post
Maybe he's overwhelmed i dunno...
I'm just jumping in, here, b/c...well, I read it and I want to offer you a

Do you two talk about this issue? I mean...have you sat and really discussed how you feel when he's not a helpmate to you the way you'd like him to be? And, have you specifically asked him why he's not as active around the house? Does he think it's your job to do these things? After reading about his mother, etc., I wonder if he just doesn't really know what to do.

These were just thoughts that popped into my head after reading a couple of your posts. I wish you the best.
zoshamosha's Avatar zoshamosha 03:33 AM 07-10-2008
Hey! Subbing...

I found that CL saved my relationship with DH. It literally saved my marriage. Like mum21, I was so mad that my husband didn't do enough to help me out around the house or with the kids. A typical saturday would be me getting up at 6:00 with the baby, running around to the park, running errands, cleaning, etc... while DH watched 6 straight hours of basketball on tv!! He SHOULD be playing with the kids, doing stuff around the house, pitching in in some capacity around here.

And then it hit me. Why should he? Because I say he should? Because society says he should? He WANTS to watch basketball.

My ego says, " I am not his housekeeper or his nanny. These are HIS kids too!!! He can lift a finger and change a frickin' diaper too, he can get off his a$$ and go to a birthday party, he can do his own laundry for once. He is disrespecting me, he is taking me for granted. This sucks! I am offended!"

But let's take two hypothetical scenarios.

1- I spend all day with the kids doing what I usually do--going to the grocery store or the park and doing regular chores, while dh sits around watching the Lakers.

and

2-I spend all day with the kids doing what I usually do--going to the grocery store or the park and doing regular chores, while dh is working his double shift in the coal mine, or he's retiling the roof on a hot summer day or he's at his grandmother's funeral.

In scenario #1 I probably hate the lazy bastard, but in scenario #2 I'm grateful to him and I'm happy doing what I'm doing. But in both scenarios, I'm doing the exact same thing. So why would I be pissed reading Fancy Nancy for the 80th time one day, but feel blessed doing the exact same thing the next day? Am I really depending my own happiness on what my husband is doing?

What I perceived to be gently asking DH do help me, he perceived me nagging him to death, which made him REALLY NOT want to do whatever I was asking. Looking back, the negativity I shot at him, all the resentment, probably is pretty hard to take.

In the end, I can't force my husband to do anything, more than he can force me to do anything. He's not forcing me to walk the dog every day (even if it's his dog because he won't walk her. I choose to walk her because it makes me sad to see her penned up in the backyard. Or I could just find her a new home if I don't want to walk her. He's not forcing me to clean the kitchen because he's not doing it. I choose to do it because I want a clean kitchen. If I really don't want to do it either, I could hire someone. I don't HAVE to take care of my kids all day. I could put them in daycare all day or, hell, even send them to foster homes. No, I choose to care for them. I could walk away from it all if I wanted to, but I choose to stay.

When I first adopted this attitude, it was hard. It went against everything I ever thought. I thought I would end up becoming like a "submissive wife," which is not at all my style. But it hasn't been that way. The energy in the house has softened. So much of the negativity that I thought was coming from "that A-hole on the couch" was really coming from me resenting him, hating him, making myself the martyr, the victim.

Since adopting this attitude, DH has consequently been so much more helpful. I'm amazed. That's just my experience that I wanted to share.

CL with my daughter is not going so smooth
mum21andtwins's Avatar mum21andtwins 06:17 AM 07-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post
I'm just jumping in, here, b/c...well, I read it and I want to offer you a

Do you two talk about this issue? I mean...have you sat and really discussed how you feel when he's not a helpmate to you the way you'd like him to be? And, have you specifically asked him why he's not as active around the house? Does he think it's your job to do these things? After reading about his mother, etc., I wonder if he just doesn't really know what to do.

These were just thoughts that popped into my head after reading a couple of your posts. I wish you the best.
\Thank you maybe it is that but after talking things through and him saying he wants to do more we made a list of all the things I do and things i often don't get around to doing so he knows what needs to be done most important thing first least important thing last I cross of the things i do so he can see whats left incase he chooses to do more/is able to do more. it will all go fine for 3 maybe 4 days and then its downhill again,.

TeresaZofia I appreciate your input, the thing is we are supposed to be a team, We chose this house and this lifestyle, we choose not to have a dishwasher, we choose to buy organic and cook from scratch, he'd have a fit if I serve him convience meals so how come if we make choices for how we think the best way to raise our children is I should do all the work. I don't have unrealistic expectations. I do expect he helps out somewhat, why because thats what we agreed when we made all the choices we did. He's an adult who choose to enter a partnership (ie marrying me) and is only trying to get the good stuff from the partnership and none of the less pleasant stuff. He's an adult with responsibilities
poiyt's Avatar poiyt 02:07 PM 07-10-2008
We have a adapted a CL lifestyle to our home - we did do UP with eachother and our daughter - but are now taking that one step further. To all you who are "expert"...question...I know how to live consensually with my husband and its working awesomely. I, in theory, know how to live consensually with children who can understand what Im saying (toddler etc)...but how do I live an honest consensual life with an infant? For example, I know sometimes she needs her diaper changed - and I try to communicate this with her (she is 10months), but obviously she doesnt understand. But she cant tell me what she wants to do - or how we can work together to get the "job" done...yk? So how do I manage this? Do I just make these decisions for her until she can both communicate and understand? She does sign (milk, more, tree, and fan) And wont making these decisions now for her enforce the belief that she is incapable of doing it? which is not what I want...and tips?
princesstutu's Avatar princesstutu 02:47 PM 07-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum21andtwins View Post
\Thank you maybe it is that but after talking things through and him saying he wants to do more we made a list of all the things I do and things i often don't get around to doing so he knows what needs to be done most important thing first least important thing last I cross of the things i do so he can see whats left incase he chooses to do more/is able to do more. it will all go fine for 3 maybe 4 days and then its downhill again,.
Okay. I'm glad I didn't offend you. I totally understand this, b/c this is how things were with my ex-husband. I had the same mentality as you: we're a team, etc.

I hope things work out for you. I did do what TeresaZofia suggests (due to Byron Katie's wonderful messages in her books) and I was definitely happier in my marriage as a result. For me, that led to a peaceful decision to actually leave my husband, so it all works out differently for everyone. Any way ya do it, the important thing is to live authentically, IMO.

Again, good luck!
zoshamosha's Avatar zoshamosha 03:36 PM 07-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum21andtwins View Post
\
TeresaZofia I appreciate your input, the thing is we are supposed to be a team
You think you're supposed to be a team, but the reality is you are not a team in the way you want. That's just the reality. You cannot force him to live up to what he said in the past. You can only deal with what is going on now.

Here's the deal. You can do all the work around the house WITH him around, or WITHOUT him. It is really your choice. And you can change the work you do.

You say he will have a fit if you serve him convenience meals. So let him have a fit. He can't force you to prepare him food the way he wants whenever he wants. If it makes you happy to cook organic food from scratch for your family, you should do it. If you really don't want to cook organic food from scratch, but you want your family to eat healthy meals, you have a number of options. You could supplement with some healthier prepared foods, you could get take-out from healthy restaurants, or you could do what I do--since neither my husband nor myself like to cook on a regular basis, and my 3 year old doesn't really care, I'll often serve up just some cut up veggies, fruit, cheese, olives, etc... for dinner. No muss no fuss. And then sometimes when one of us gets the bug, either DH or I will actually make something.

You have to ask yourself, "what is the result I want?" If the whole point is that you want your husband to cook for you--you want to control his behavior. If the whole point for your husband is that he wants you to do something for him, then he wants to control you. This is where the problem is.

In the end, if you believe your husband can't get over trying to control you to do what he wants, you may consider what princesstutu did and peaceably leave. CL is not just about not coercing others, it's about not letting yourself be coerced by other too.

Before I let this get too long, I just want to add one more thing... I never read The Continuum Concept, but I did read that passage where there was the one man who wanted to live and eat in another man's home, but didn't want to work in the garden and grow food. The man whose house it was didn't mind and fed him anyway, even though he didn't contribute. Finally, the first man came around and started his own garden. The second man said he was not surprised he finally started his own garden because why would you NOT want to garden?

When my husband is in front of the TV all day and I'm taking care of two kids by myself, I think of this. Why would he NOT want to take care of his kids. It's kind of weird to want to sit around and watch tv all day. I mean, how boring is that? And then I actually feel kind of sorry for him that I GET to hang out with my wonderful kids, while he's stuck in a major rut and wasting his life in front of the boob tube.

Strangely, just holding that attitude on my part has inspired him to want to take care of our kids more. Seriously, he is spending so much less time in front of the tv.
zoshamosha's Avatar zoshamosha 04:13 PM 07-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by poiyt View Post
We have a adapted a CL lifestyle to our home - we did do UP with eachother and our daughter - but are now taking that one step further. To all you who are "expert"...question...I know how to live consensually with my husband and its working awesomely. I, in theory, know how to live consensually with children who can understand what Im saying (toddler etc)...but how do I live an honest consensual life with an infant? For example, I know sometimes she needs her diaper changed - and I try to communicate this with her (she is 10months), but obviously she doesnt understand. But she cant tell me what she wants to do - or how we can work together to get the "job" done...yk? So how do I manage this? Do I just make these decisions for her until she can both communicate and understand? She does sign (milk, more, tree, and fan) And wont making these decisions now for her enforce the belief that she is incapable of doing it? which is not what I want...and tips?
I'm no expert on CL, but I think people have varying views on how to live consensually with babies and very small children. A baby doesn't know that she can choke on that marble and die, so I'll take it away. A 14-month old doesn't know that playing in the middle of the street could get her killed, so I'll physically restrain her from running out into the street if we're in that situation. But that's just me, there are others out there who might have a better, more non-coercive approach.

In terms of diaper changes? Why does she NEED to have her diaper changed? I suppose if she's sitting in poop she could get a UTI, which isn't great. But if she's just wet, why is that your problem? If she gets uncomfortable enough, she'll probably let you take it off.

I still find it very hard to live consensually with my 3 year old, but I am working on it. So, I'm eagerly listening for suggestions too!
lolar2's Avatar lolar2 05:09 PM 07-10-2008
On the diaper changes, what level of mobility is she at? And in what way does she resist them? And what types of diapers do you use?
poiyt's Avatar poiyt 05:56 PM 07-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
On the diaper changes, what level of mobility is she at? And in what way does she resist them? And what types of diapers do you use?
She is crawling, almost walking - and quite mobile. She doesnt protest them all the time - I just want to honour her wishes and not control her. She resists by trying to roll away or does her unhappy why are you doing this to me cry. We use pampers size 2. The only other brand of sposies that dont give her a really bad rash are Luvs - but we are in Canada and they are only available in the states. I really wanted to CD but we live in an aprtment with horrible laundering machines - and no diaper service company.

ETA: The reason I say diaper changes instead of any other issue where we cant understand eachother is b/c she had a really bad kidney infection about 2 months (was in hospital for 4 days - IV, seizures...the whole works) ago and they arent sure if her kidneys are working properly, and they told me to make sure she didnt stay in the same diaper for more than 2.5 hours
zoshamosha's Avatar zoshamosha 06:34 PM 07-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by poiyt View Post

ETA: The reason I say diaper changes instead of any other issue where we cant understand eachother is b/c she had a really bad kidney infection about 2 months (was in hospital for 4 days - IV, seizures...the whole works) ago and they arent sure if her kidneys are working properly, and they told me to make sure she didnt stay in the same diaper for more than 2.5 hours
I would not sweat this. I, personally think babies depend on their parents to keep them bodily safe and healthy. Have you considered EC?
mum21andtwins's Avatar mum21andtwins 07:25 PM 07-10-2008
Thanks I think I get what you are saying I will be back after pondering on this for awhile.....
Smalls181's Avatar Smalls181 07:59 PM 07-10-2008
Hi!! Striving to be CL here.. especially with my 28 month old dd. Who else trying to be CL with a not-so-verbal 2 year old?
linguistmama's Avatar linguistmama 01:32 AM 07-11-2008
I'd like to learn more about CL so I'll join!

Sometimes I feel like even though I've read on the CL website and joined the yahoo group that I still don't quite understand. Let me see if I've got this right? If dd1 wants to do or not do something and I would like to do or not do it then we would talk about it to find a mutually acceptable solution? And sometimes we would sit down when things are calm and discuss different situations or issues where there has been conflict or we have been at an impass to try to come to a mutually agreeable situation? And rather than focusing on the exact outcome we focus on finding a solution that works for everyone even if it takes awhile?

I tried this tonight and I did really well until it came to going to sleep But we had some really great moments too. DD1 hates getting her hair brushed and I have told her several times that cutting her hair could be a good option. I think she could tell I was really trying to connect with her the whole evening and she decided to have me cut her hair. I was pretty surprised! It's not that she had to get her hair cut in order for me to feel better, I was tonight and have been ok with whatever she wanted in the past. But without all the conflict it was like she could really consider it as an option instead of focusing on keeping some autonomy. I think she felt like she could truly decide even though I had tried to not push it too much before.
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