Explain this to me as if I were a 31 year old product of the US education system.
Things I know:
I know that Jews (along with many other groups) were mass slaughtered and tortured and removed from their countries of origin in WWII.
I know that Jews from certain countries did not want to return to those countries for very good reasons.
I was taught:
I was taught that after the war, the world got together and gave Israel an 'ancestral piece of land' and that Jews joyfully moved there en masse.
Things I was not taught:
Where did this land 'come from'?
What country so generously gave it to them?
Was it vacant or did people happily move from a land that there families had lived on for generations?
If the previous two questions are not based in reality, from what country was the land TAKEN? Was it vacant or were people forced to move from that land and if so, where do they live now?
I'm watching this whole Israel/Palestine thing unfold and I'm filled with horror, but I'm so inadequately informed about the facts at the *beginning* of the conflict that I don't feel like I'm understanding what's going on. 'They' kill 'Them' and 'Them' kills 'They'.
I'm sad and confused and until I understand where Israel came from and why it was placed where it was, I just can't get behind them. And while I can see that the Palestinian fighters are overwhelmed with the superior fire power of Israel, I can't get behind them fading into their populace and watching their families get slaughtered.
And another question - why are the Western countries so fully behind Israel? That was apparent even in the presidential elections when it was clear that if the candidates didn't come out with unapologetic support for Israel, they stood very little chance. I heard 'I am a friend of Israel' so much during the election, that though it hadn't been on my radar before, it certainly was after that.
Originally Posted by ChattyCat
Yeah, actually I have read the entire thread. I do think the tone sucks. "How come there is a First Nation?" sounds equally harsh to my ears. I really think you need to learn some tact.
I don't think the two are really that similar. There is a "First Nation" because a group of people actually existed before others moved in and colonized the area they occupied. The origin of this Nation is prehistoric. It was not brought about for political reasons.
Israel, on the other hand, was created as a political entity only a few decades ago. The way it was established - a nation more or less invented by a committee - was, if not unique, at least very unusual. I am sure that, at the time the concept of a new Jewish state was first brought up, many people were asking the question, "Why should there be an Israel?" There must have been arguments on both sides, which our parents and grandparents participated in. Why is it offensive to look into the rationale behind this decision?
Originally Posted by Niamh
That is a very good point. What matters online with any thread is not what you intended with it, but what actually happens with it. Threads don't always veer in the direction you want or carry the tone you thought you started it with.
I didn't see the 'predictable reaction' coming since it is not in my mind to take it in that direction. Point made. It was easily interpreted wrongly.
I do wish those who read it in an anti-semitic way would have spoken up before halfway through page 2 so it didn't seem as if it was a 'let's shut this discussion down' ploy. Once again, very likely NOT what you and ChattyCat meant for your objections to sound like, but how they can be so easily interpreted.
It was a rather surprising title and a little intimidating to click on. I had to muster up the courage. I think when I said "I think this thread sound antisemitic," that's exactly what I meant, and if it brings the conversation to a halt, I didn't intend that since I was bound to get a response, but if it does then I'm okay with that. It was a title I don't think should have been posted.
kmeryick, I just tried pming you but your box is full. Basically, thanks for sticking with me through that. I really didn't mean it to seem anti-Semitic. As I tried to make clear in the first post, I don't know enough about the situation to even know what I don't know.
It's so incredibly frustrating to see all this pain and death and have those on both sides, on a parenting board, fighting it out. It's hard to say "Those poor children" about either side and have mothers on the 'other' side jump in with "But they had to do it!" I hardly ever get on the N&CE board and now I remember why. Ugh.
Anyway, Peace. I'm sorry to have offended you. Truly.
It's been nice to have some questions answered on this thread. If you have any history that you want to put up, please do. I've been getting quite an education on the history of that area today.
Originally Posted by Niamh
kmeryick, I just tried pming you but your box is full. Basically, thanks for sticking with me through that. I really didn't mean it to seem anti-Semitic. As I tried to make clear in the first post, I don't know enough about the situation to even know what I don't know.
It's so incredibly frustrating to see all this pain and death and have those on both sides, on a parenting board, fighting it out. It's hard to say "Those poor children" about either side and have mothers on the 'other' side jump in with "But they had to do it!" I hardly ever get on the N&CE board and now I remember why. Ugh.
Anyway, Peace. I'm sorry to have offended you. Truly.
It's been nice to have some questions answered on this thread. If you have any history that you want to put up, please do. I've been getting quite an education on the history of that area today.
No probs, it tortures me to see that there are kids who are suffering anywhere. I am actually privileged to work with Kurdish children in my school, and when I see what to me is just another sweet, adorable student, I can't see how any one of them should ever expect to come to harm. Every child in the world should take for granted that they will be safe. I get all the self-defense, human shields, alla that, but frankly, it doesn't rationalize the tragedy for me. And I will empty my mail box!
One thing I have learned is that Arabs living in Israel have full citizenship rights. That would not be true of any Jew living in any Arab nation anywhere.
Originally Posted by mamabadger
I don't think the two are really that similar. There is a "First Nation" because a group of people actually existed before others moved in and colonized the area they occupied. The origin of this Nation is prehistoric. It was not brought about for political reasons.
Israel, on the other hand, was created as a political entity only a few decades ago. The way it was established - a nation more or less invented by a committee - was, if not unique, at least very unusual. I am sure that, at the time the concept of a new Jewish state was first brought up, many people were asking the question, "Why should there be an Israel?" There must have been arguments on both sides, which our parents and grandparents participated in. Why is it offensive to look into the rationale behind this decision?
well said.
It was clear to me that the OP was asking information seeking questions without an agenda. many of us here do have an agenda, which I think is absolutely fine so long as we're clear about it.
I think it's brave to ask information seeking questions when you do not know the information.
I think that anti-semitism (colloquial use) is rampant in the modern world. i also think that accusations of antisemitism are often used to shut down criticism of Israel and/or Israel's actions. so I really like for people to be specific when accusing other people of being antisemitic in discussions about Israel.
among other things, it can be a useful teaching moment. antisemitism is ubiquitous in the western world and sometimes non jewish people say things that are anti-jewish without realizing it, and it's really good to have those things pointed out. I feel confident that no one here has been intentionally anti-jewish, and I don't see anything obvious, so please do be specific. Otherwise I'm left to assume that folks are equating criticism of Israel with anti-jewish bigotry.
Originally Posted by sadie_sabot
I think that anti-semitism (colloquial use) is rampant in the modern world. i also think that accusations of antisemitism are often used to shut down criticism of Israel and/or Israel's actions. so I really like for people to be specific when accusing other people of being antisemitic in discussions about Israel.
Originally Posted by Jungle Mama
A lot of the OP's question can be answered by learning the history of the Rothschild dynasty, scroll down to the 1940s.
Originally Posted by Jungle Mama
A lot of the OP's question can be answered by learning the history of the Rothschild dynasty, scroll down to the 1940s.
Originally Posted by RachelGS
One thing I have learned is that Arabs living in Israel have full citizenship rights. That would not be true of any Jew living in any Arab nation anywhere.
This is not only about land.
Actually, if you can't marry and live with your spouse of choice... if your schools are separate and definitely not equal... if there is rampant discrimination... then I'm not sure how they have full citizenship rights similar to Israeli Jews.
Did you know that the Ayatollah Khomeni issued edicts protecting the Jews and Christians of Iran?
"Anti-Semitism is not an eastern phenomenon, it's not an Islamic or Iranian phenomenon - anti-Semitism is a European phenomenon," he says, arguing that Jews in Iran even in their worst days never suffered as much as they did in Europe.
It's not perfect, but nor is life for Arabs in Israel.
Of course, we can then debate whether or not Iran is Arab.. which it really isn't.
yeah I think that might be some of what I was talking about. I think the rothschild stuff is, um, *highly* problematic, just from a cursory look and following a couple links, googling some of the authors.
edited to add: this was in response to the rothschild stuff, not umsami's post.
Originally Posted by umsami
Actually, if you can't marry and live with your spouse of choice... if your schools are separate and definitely not equal... if there is rampant discrimination... then I'm not sure how they have full citizenship rights similar to Israeli Jews.
I'm still learning, too. That's incredibly sad and disappointing.
I recognize that what I'm hearing from my frightened Jewish friends is informed by their own fear and also by the history they know, the same way that I understand that what I'm hearing from people who clearly believe Israel is (and has been) in the wrong is informed by that experience. I do feel incredible anxiety over the widely publicized statements from militants that say that until the earth is rid of Jews, their mission cannot end. That's horrifying. I'm taking it all in at this stage.
Originally Posted by RachelGS
.. I do feel incredible anxiety over the widely publicized statements from militants that say that until the earth is rid of Jews, their mission cannot end. That's horrifying. I'm taking it all in at this stage.
I find those statements just as disturbing as you do. Maybe even more so, because I've actually heard people spout anti-Semetic stuff in real life. And it is absolutely frightening to hear such hate in anybody's voice.
The thing is, I think that the best way to neutralize those people... the best way to ensure Israel's future and security... is to treat Palestinians fairly. Make Palestine a non-issue. Take it off the playing field. If Palestinians were as free and as prosperous as Israelis... I don't see the rest of the Arab world caring. Heck, I think they'd be jealous. It's because of the occupation... because of the embargos and such... that they're a continuing rallying point. Heck, the Palestinian cause even unites Shi'ites and Sunnis... which usually doesn't happen.
The thing is, I think that the best way to neutralize those people... the best way to ensure Israel's future and security... is to treat Palestinians fairly. Make Palestine a non-issue. Take it off the playing field. If Palestinians were as free and as prosperous as Israelis... I don't see the rest of the Arab world caring. Heck, I think they'd be jealous. It's because of the occupation... because of the embargos and such... that they're a continuing rallying point. Heck, the Palestinian cause even unites Shi'ites and Sunnis... which usually doesn't happen.
Originally Posted by umsami
I find those statements just as disturbing as you do. Maybe even more so, because I've actually heard people spout anti-Semetic stuff in real life. And it is absolutely frightening to hear such hate in anybody's voice.
The thing is, I think that the best way to neutralize those people... the best way to ensure Israel's future and security... is to treat Palestinians fairly. Make Palestine a non-issue. Take it off the playing field. If Palestinians were as free and as prosperous as Israelis... I don't see the rest of the Arab world caring. Heck, I think they'd be jealous. It's because of the occupation... because of the embargos and such... that they're a continuing rallying point. Heck, the Palestinian cause even unites Shi'ites and Sunnis... which usually doesn't happen.
Your vision is the same one of Shimon Peres, Yitzchak Rabin and that of Oslo. That is the "big picture" that was sold to us in Israel back in the 90's (when I still lived there) after the Oslo Accords. We thought the borders were going to fall down and we would all live in peace and prosperity in a new Middle East! We all thought we'd be visiting Jericho either for the tourist sites or the new casino (which had Israeli partners). The reality was that of the corruption of Fatah where the aid that was supposed to usher in a new, peaceful Palestine went into the coffers of Arafat and his cronies, Fatah's reign of terror and then the assumption of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. So since it seems we've "btdt" - how do you propose to try the same again without the same pitfalls?
I think that you also negate the fact that there are those Muslim fanatics (and I do NOT mean all Muslims) who aren't driven by peace and prosperity. The fundamental of eradicating Israel from the Middle East trumps all.
Yes, Arafat was uber-corrupt... and now his wife lives in luxury in Paris with millions perhaps Billions of money intended for the Palestinian people.
:
Thing is... I honestly don't think that Abbas and Fatah or Hamas are any better. I could be wrong, of course. But it seems like Fatah is just as evil to Palestinians who they believe to be Hamas members as Hamas is to FAtah... or to Israelis.
Apparently the US totally backed Abbas to get him into office. Maybe he was the least objectionable choice... but I"m not 100% sure that he's the best choice for the Palestinian people.
Really, the more I read about Rwanda and the genocide... and the novel solution about requiring government to be 50% women... the more I think something like that might work in Palestine. Women are just not as likely to be war-mongerers... They're more likely to think of the benefit of children, of the poor, etc.
:
I don't see peace happening with the current people in power. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, though.
Originally Posted by umsami
Yes, Arafat was uber-corrupt... and now his wife lives in luxury in Paris with millions perhaps Billions of money intended for the Palestinian people.
:
Thing is... I honestly don't think that Abbas and Fatah or Hamas are any better. I could be wrong, of course. But it seems like Fatah is just as evil to Palestinians who they believe to be Hamas members as Hamas is to FAtah... or to Israelis.
Apparently the US totally backed Abbas to get him into office. Maybe he was the least objectionable choice... but I"m not 100% sure that he's the best choice for the Palestinian people.
I don't see peace happening with the current people in power. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, though.
Originally Posted by kmeyrick
I wish MerpK were around, she's the most informed person on the board when it comes to this subject. I'll be be frank, too, this is sounding more and more antisemitic. Maybe not loudly, perhaps backhandedly, but that's what it sounds like to me.
Originally Posted by ChattyCat
I for one haven't chimed in on this thread until now, because I thought the title was anti-semitic. I have no desire to take part in a discussion, where from the onset, I feel like my opinion will not be heard. It's quite possible that there are others on MDC who feel similarly. You could have phrased your title differently, and it would not have been so inflammatory. Perhaps something like "How did Israel come to be?" or "What is the history of the formation of Israel?" There are many ways to essentially ask the same question without the antagonistic tone that is found in your title "Why is there an Israel?"
I agree with this, and kmeyrick. I was learning so much from previous threads, but sometimes it just seems like a big hate pile on for Israel.
I understand some of the objections made here, but I have to say, a place for the very basic questions about how did this start are really useful for those of us who don't really understand the issue at all.
I've posted here and NOT in any of the other threads about the area because I felt "hey, I can read this thread and learn something I knew very little about before." I wouldn't want to do that on a thread really discussing the current conflict heavily because I'm not knowledgeable enough to do that.
Not knowing and wanting to understand the basic background on the country is NOT anti-semitic IMO. So thank you, OP, for starting this thread.
Despite these troubling trends, there are also opportunities. There is overwhelming support among Arab states for the two-state solution. Even among the angry public, two-thirds of Arabs I polled with Zogby International in 2008 supported the principle of a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders. Yes, it's true that a majority of Arabs (as well as many Israelis and Palestinians) believe the solution will not come about, but that's an indication that the popularity of militancy in the region is more an outcome of the failure at peace-making than an embrace of militant ideologies.
A poll released on Thursday showed that 53 percent of the Israeli public support a two-state final agreement with the Palestinians and a solution to all the "core issues" - refugees, borders, settlements and Jerusalem, local daily Ha'aretz reported.
I wonder how people will feel after all of this? Will there be more or less support for a two-state solution?
"The place for Israeli Arabs to exercise their national aspirations is a future Palestinian state - not Israel, which is the Jewish national home." Livni's next comment: "No single Palestinian refugee will be admitted to Israel" was a roundabout message in the same vein to the Israeli Arab minority (a steady one-fifth of the population).
She clarified this later by saying that while Israeli Arabs would not be forced to leave or lose their civil rights, "those who wished to realize their national aspirations should look elsewhere," namely to a Palestinian state when it rises.
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