Noam Chomsky on Gaza... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Interesting read:

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/20316
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#2 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 08:05 AM
 
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Thanks for sharing that. I think Chomsky is spot on in much of what he writes. (Running late this morning--I'll comment more later).
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#3 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 10:51 AM
 
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#4 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 11:08 AM
 
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How much more biased can you get? I had to stop reading, it frankly scares me that anyone can say this guy is spot on.
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#5 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 01:53 PM
 
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How much more biased can you get? I had to stop reading, it frankly scares me that anyone can say this guy is spot on.
One doesn't use the term "self-hating" casually, but I think that Noam Chomsky is worthy of the label.
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#6 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One doesn't use the term "self-hating" casually, but I think that Noam Chomsky is worthy of the label.
Or maybe just a critical thinker? I know both he and Norman Finklestein both share lack of popularity in their community, but I didn't get the impression at all that they were self-hating.

I know so many that have been tarred with the "self-hating" brush, it's really an unfair title that serves only to try and silence a point of view.
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#7 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 02:31 PM
 
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Noam Chomsky is considered one of the top critical thinkers of our time. His academic achievements and political activism has proved that he is a voice of experience with a strong support of human rights.

Because of his candidness in political expression, because he says the facts that people do not want to hear, he is considered a dissident (and some use the term self-hating).

Chomsky's piece is pure intellect without the emotion. I find his commentaries on world events to generally bring clarity. If people put their emotions in check and hear his words, they'll have a broader view instead of a myopic one.

At no point in the commentary in the URL above did Chomsky condone the daily bombings against Israel, in fact he called them "criminal." He just laid out all the other chess pieces so we can see the game that's being played.

I applaud Chomsky for speaking out, instead of kowtowing to the US media's silence over the years.

YMMV,
Kolleen
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#8 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 02:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Swan3 View Post
Or maybe just a critical thinker? I know both he and Norman Finklestein both share lack of popularity in their community, but I didn't get the impression at all that they were self-hating.

I know so many that have been tarred with the "self-hating" brush, it's really an unfair title that serves only to try and silence a point of view.
I see a lot of unpopular views in "the community" and they don't get called self-hating nor are they silenced. Like I said, one doesn't use the term lightly.

I'm with CMK on this one - it's so over the top in bias that it's (extremely) difficult to take seriously.
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#9 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 02:44 PM
 
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I'm with CMK on this one - it's so over the top in bias that it's (extremely) difficult to take seriously.
I think that in this case, Chomsky quoted many Israeli sources in support of what he says. So are you saying that his sources are wrong or made up, or are you saying that you don't share his conclusions and that this means he must be biased?
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#10 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 02:48 PM
 
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I think that Chomsky picks and chooses his sources and takes them out of context to paint the picture he wants.
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I think that Chomsky picks and chooses his sources and takes them out of context to paint the picture he wants.

Please give me an example from the artcle. One will do.
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#12 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 03:17 PM
 
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I'm personally glad to know more about the US's role in this whole mess. Greed is a terrible thing.
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#13 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kolleen9 View Post
Noam Chomsky is considered one of the top critical thinkers of our time. His academic achievements and political activism has proved that he is a voice of experience with a strong support of human rights.

Because of his candidness in political expression, because he says the facts that people do not want to hear, he is considered a dissident (and some use the term self-hating).

Chomsky's piece is pure intellect without the emotion. I find his commentaries on world events to generally bring clarity. If people put their emotions in check and hear his words, they'll have a broader view instead of a myopic one.

At no point in the commentary in the URL above did Chomsky condone the daily bombings against Israel, in fact he called them "criminal." He just laid out all the other chess pieces so we can see the game that's being played.

I applaud Chomsky for speaking out, instead of kowtowing to the US media's silence over the years.

YMMV,
Kolleen

very well put



and thanks for posting the article swan
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#14 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 03:39 PM
 
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Please give me an example from the artcle. One will do.
You can start with the comment about Shimon Peres. Shimon Peres is the architect of the Oslo accords, has good relations with Palestinians for years, met with Palestinian leaders when it was illegal for gov't leaders to do so, has been one of the primary proponents of a Palestinian state.....and here is Chomsky's summary of dear Shimon:
Quote:
directed by Shimon Peres, one of the great terrorist commanders of the era of Reagan's "War on Terror."
. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the portrayal of Lebanon in the 80's.
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Noam Chomsky does not say things to be popular. He calls it like he sees it and he also has such a breadth of knowledge, he doesn't come into it with one side or the other(like there are ever just two sides).

No one has been more concise and on point about the dangers of the idea of pre-emptive war, and I am certain people here and other places would call him anti-American for his commentary. However, he was and is right and instead of sweeping his ideas away with a "he's self-hating," maybe we should be asking more questions about what he is talking about than simply dismissing him. You can disagree with his assessment without calling him a name.

Far too many time we look at world conflicts in vacuums, as if they are not interconnected with one another. Well, the world is connected, and has been as long as we have been on this lovely planet, to pretend that conflicts happen in a vacuum is to pretend they are not happening on the same planet we all live on.
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#16 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 04:23 PM
 
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Hamas is regularly described as "Iranian-backed Hamas, which is dedicated to the destruction of Israel." One will be hard put to find something like "democratically elected Hamas, which has long been calling for a two-state settlement in accord with the international consensus" -- blocked for over 30 years by the US and Israel, which flatly and explicitly reject the right of Palestinians to self-determination. All true, but not a useful contribution to the Party Line, hence dispensable.
?

Quote:
The British were not justified in using force to defend themselves against the (very real) terror of the American colonists seeking independence, or to terrorize Irish Catholics in response to IRA terror - and when they finally turned to the sensible policy of addressing legitimate grievances, the terror ended. It is not a matter of "proportionality," but of choice of action in the first place: Is there an alternative to violence?
Now, that is something I can relate to.

To be honest, I am not sure what he is trying to say. I get that he critises Israel and thinks that the Palestinians are helpless victims and that Hamas is just really a dog with a bark and no bite and that this whole mess is all Israels fault. And he argues convincingly.

But for me he glosses over important issues (Hamas repeatedly calling for a two state solution (!) and those pesky, albeit illegal rockets) and I do not see him presenting a clear way forward, beyond his critisism. Which I just find hard to swallow. I am all for looking at the darker side and critisizing any country (Israel included) - but do something with the critisism. Use it to mould a peaceful way forward.

Things are not working. I think many people see that and agree.

Self hating Jew? hmmmm, a Jewish someone who is very critical of Israel and perhaps has a different vision of what the Jewish homeland would look like. I do not know.

Just like the Palestinians are not a monolithic 'they', so is Israel not a monlitihic 'them' Believe it or not, good things do happen here and good people live their lives here.

Megan, mama to her little boy (Feb2008) and introducing our little girl (Dec 2010)
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#17 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 07:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by studentmama View Post
No one has been more concise and on point about the dangers of the idea of pre-emptive war, and I am certain people here and other places would call him anti-American for his commentary. However, he was and is right and instead of sweeping his ideas away with a "he's self-hating," maybe we should be asking more questions about what he is talking about than simply dismissing him. You can disagree with his assessment without calling him a name.
Or maybe we need read what he writes more critically instead of swallowing it whole.
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#18 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 08:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
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Hamas is regularly described as "Iranian-backed Hamas, which is dedicated to the destruction of Israel." One will be hard put to find something like "democratically elected Hamas, which has long been calling for a two-state settlement in accord with the international consensus" -- blocked for over 30 years by the US and Israel, which flatly and explicitly reject the right of Palestinians to self-determination. All true, but not a useful contribution to the Party Line, hence dispensable.
?
I know I was told that one example would be enough, but since ema-adama cited this, let's go with it. I want to know what planet Noam Chomsky is living on. Hamas openly rejects Israel's right to exist, calls for it's destruction, rejects negotiations, rejects a two-state solution and sees not just all Israelis BUT ALL JEWS as valid targets. Yes, if you want, I can provide links - just look at Hamas's charter! Bias is actually quite polite. I'd say "dreamworld" except for all the slander contained therein. And people want to tell us that this is "spot on" and an accurate portrayal???? I'm baffled.
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#19 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 08:29 PM
 
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Hamas Charter about 1/2 down the page after some info on the background of the organization.

Quote:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
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#20 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Or maybe we need read what he writes more critically instead of swallowing it whole.
The same could be said of rejecting it as a whole.
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#21 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 08:47 PM
 
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Or maybe we need read what he writes more critically instead of swallowing it whole.
oh, how offensive.

and the self hating comment?

I get that there can be a dynamic within oppressed communities of people itnernalizing the oppression. but the idea that to criticize Israel means you ahte yourself as a jew is just, well...it strikes me as a silencing tactic.

won't work on Noam!

and, off topic: Noam's wife passed recently. hold him in your hearts; may he live forever! but he won't, and his passing will be sad! I am grateful that he continues to contribute and speak the truths that many don't want to hear.
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#22 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I get that there can be a dynamic within oppressed communities of people itnernalizing the oppression. but the idea that to criticize Israel means you ahte yourself as a jew is just, well...it strikes me as a silencing tactic.

won't work on Noam!
:

Won't work on him and many others that are part of a growing voice of opposition to Israel's actions against Palestinians...There's Naomi Klein, Norman Finklestein, Rabbis for Peace as well as many Israeli organizations within Israel. I've heard many of the above speak and they certainly were comfortable in their own skin and have a love for their heritage.
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#23 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 09:29 PM
 
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Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Substitute "Jewish" for "Islamic" and it looks quite a bit like the Israeli position, don't you think?
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#24 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 09:30 PM
 
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Um, instead of attacking me for my "self-hating" and "biased" comments, please read my critique instead. Do you deny my points? I can keep going (though I was asked for "only one"....as if there were none )
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#25 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 09:32 PM
 
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Substitute "Jewish" for "Islamic" and it looks quite a bit like the Israeli position, don't you think?
Really? No, I don't think.

Could you please back that up with some links to statements from the Israeli gov't? Ones where they reject the idea of peace? Ones where they reject negotiations? Ones where they reject a two state solution? B/c they have signed on to all those ideas.
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#26 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 09:36 PM
 
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Um, instead of attacking me for my "self-hating" and "biased" comments, please read my critique instead. Do you deny my points? I can keep going (though I was asked for "only one"....as if there were none )
was this for me? I'm able to choose for myself what I want to comment on.
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#27 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 09:43 PM
 
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was this for me? I'm able to choose for myself what I want to comment on.
Of course, you have the right not to comment. But it is telling that everyone has chosen to jump on my "self-hating" comment rather than my valid criticisms. I believe that is called "change the topic when you don't have a response and hope they just go away".
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#28 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 09:47 PM
 
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Really? No, I don't think.

Could you please back that up with some links to statements from the Israeli gov't? Ones where they reject the idea of peace? Ones where they reject negotiations? Ones where they reject a two state solution? B/c they have signed on to all those ideas.
They may have signed on to those ideas, but then they continue to build illegal settlements in such a way that makes a viable Palestinian state untenable. Empty rhetoric.
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#29 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 09:55 PM
 
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You can start with the comment about Shimon Peres. Shimon Peres is the architect of the Oslo accords, has good relations with Palestinians for years, met with Palestinian leaders when it was illegal for gov't leaders to do so, has been one of the primary proponents of a Palestinian state.....and here is Chomsky's summary of dear Shimon: . And that doesn't even begin to touch on the portrayal of Lebanon in the 80's.
So you're disagreeing with Chomsky's conclusion that Peres is "one of the great terrorist commanders of the era of Reagan's "War on Terror," not with his sources, correct?
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#30 of 36 Old 01-21-2009, 09:56 PM
 
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Of course, you have the right not to comment. But it is telling that everyone has chosen to jump on my "self-hating" comment rather than my valid criticisms. I believe that is called "change the topic when you don't have a response and hope they just go away".
I will always point out silencing techniques when I see them.

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They may have signed on to those ideas, but then they continue to build illegal settlements in such a way that makes a viable Palestinian state untenable. Empty rhetoric.
exactly. Actions speak louder than...well, than empty rhetoric.
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