Learning from school shootings - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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The conference -- "School Safety in Minnesota:
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Lessons Learned" -- was organized by several federal agencies and the state's Departments of Education and Public Safety...
"They happened in two very different communities, which [shows] that this can happen at any school."
School shootings have been occuring for over 25 years, and it is just NOW be looked at?!?
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#2 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 01:05 PM
 
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You're never satisfied, are you? If they weren't looking at it at all, it would be problem too. Be thankful that it is now being dealt with.
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#3 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 01:11 PM
 
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If you read the article you find out the conference has happened based on a report that was put together in 2004. School shootings are being analyzed on-going. The problem is there is a lot of difficult issues to look at in doing it. Like gun control and access to guns as well as the isolation of youth in society (continuining to build more prisons rather than deal with the problems in society) and parenting issues.
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#4 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lisalou
If you read the article you find out the conference has happened based on a report that was put together in 2004. School shootings are being analyzed on-going. The problem is there is a lot of difficult issues to look at in doing it. Like gun control and access to guns as well as the isolation of youth in society (continuining to build more prisons rather than deal with the problems in society) and parenting issues.
ITA. It is disheartening that they would rather provide schools with armed police officers, bulletproof glass, metal detectors, auto-locking doors, etc. Than actually look at the real problem and provide the needed solution, but that wouldn't make money, now would it?

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You're never satisfied, are you? If they weren't looking at it at all, it would be problem too. Be thankful that it is now being dealt with.
And you ARE satisfied that it has taken this long to start looking at the issues?
How many children's lives would have been saved if these issues had been looked at years ago?

I will NEVER be satisfied when children are being killed and the adults in power do nothing.
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#5 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 02:42 PM
 
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I'm in Canada, we HAVE gun control.
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#6 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 02:51 PM
 
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At least they are making an effort and a step in the right direction. The two school shootings they are talking about that happened in MN, for those of you who are not familiar, one took place in a middle class caucasian district and the other in a indian reservation school. MITB at least they are handling them equally and not looking at one over the other. They provided the kids in the school with all new clear backpacks and are trying to find answers.
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#7 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Irishmommy
I'm in Canada, we HAVE gun control.
I used to live in Canada and I visit my family often. Children in Canada have access to guns, also. Canada does not have the massive violence like the U.S. for many more reasons than just gun control.

All the gun control in the world is not going to end the violence seen in the U.S. school systems.
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#8 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 04:04 PM
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Everyone - take a BIG step back. Please be respectful of each other, regardless of if you disagree.

Thank you.

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#9 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 04:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
All the gun control in the world is not going to end the violence seen in the U.S. school systems.
That's true. While I don't favor gun control, I do wish that the laws currently in place to restrict minors' access to guns were actually enforced. I thought I read somewhere that the Columbine killers bought some of their weapons at a gun show, where loopholes exist concerning background checks and waiting periods. However, I may be wrong on that.
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#10 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 05:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grace Prevailed
That's true. While I don't favor gun control, I do wish that the laws currently in place to restrict minors' access to guns were actually enforced. I thought I read somewhere that the Columbine killers bought some of their weapons at a gun show, where loopholes exist concerning background checks and waiting periods. However, I may be wrong on that.

absolutely agree with that. We don't need more gun control, we need the laws that are in place to be enforced.
You are correct in the fact that the Columbine kids had an adult buy the weapons they needed at a gun show from a private individual. The only loopholes that exist at gunshows is the fact private citizens can sell their personal firearms to another private citizen without a background check. This happens all the time with or without a gunshow. Check your local papers for guns for sale there. Owners of gun stores, who must have an FFL to conduct business, still need to run a NICS check on ALL individuals who purchase from them, be it at the store or a gunstore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou
If you read the article you find out the conference has happened based on a report that was put together in 2004. School shootings are being analyzed on-going. The problem is there is a lot of difficult issues to look at in doing it. Like gun control and access to guns as well as the isolation of youth in society (continuining to build more prisons rather than deal with the problems in society) and parenting issues.
:
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#11 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 06:58 PM
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The loophole that allowed Klebold and Harris to get their guns was one that they lawmakers had been trying to deal with, but it was in some of the legislation....it was a giant mess. Had to do with no background check, no waiting period, since gun shows are partially considered for "collectors". Gun laws in Colorado are a giant mess...have been for a while. Lots of non-clear messy language and loopholes.

The isolation of kids who feel out of place it the biggest problem. It has always been there, it made me a VERY angry kid when I was in school. Just kids see other options now than they did before. It used to be gossip on the bathroom wall and shoving them in the hall. It makes me angry, because there were times in my school age life that violence sounded like a really good idea against the people who were horrible to me. I went to a highschool about 10 minutes from Columbine, same kind of school, very large - fairly well off. And it was easy to feel angry and lost a lot.

There are so many things that MIGHT help. And so many things that might not. It is hard to tell which to try. Parental involvement would help, school involvement would help, enforcing no guns for minors would help. But until society pulls it's collective head out of its butt and realizes that kids are humans and have all sorts of issues that are real and important and starts treating them accordingly, instead of like they are property, nothing will change.

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#12 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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There is access to all types of weapons. I think what needs to be looked at is not the weapons issue, but what caused child(ren) to kill.
I think the interview with the one boy who shot his fellow students said it best, that is where his pain and suffering was found.
Why are our children feeling pain and suffering in our education systems? As parents and educators, why are we letting it continue?

There is another thread somewhere on MDC that talks about the parents who were bullied and scared in their schools as youngsters. This has been going on too long, IMO.

I am just wondering what we can do to change that.
I have seen the Anti-bully programs for schools, and I think it is a good step in the right direction, but still does not solve the larger issue of our children not feeling safe at school.
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#13 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 07:11 PM
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There is access to all types of weapons...but you can do a heck of a lot less damage with a knife than with a shotgun or pistol. Guns are seen as a way ti inflict a lot of damage fast. I think making sure minors don't get them, is a way to keep other kids from dying.

As I said in the previous post- the bigger problem is the way society treats kids...so I am not sure what you though I was saying - but we seem to be agreeing.

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#14 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 07:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdinaL
The loophole that allowed Klebold and Harris to get their guns was one that they lawmakers had been trying to deal with, but it was in some of the legislation....it was a giant mess. Had to do with no background check, no waiting period, since gun shows are partially considered for "collectors". Gun laws in Colorado are a giant mess...have been for a while. Lots of non-clear messy language and loopholes.

The isolation of kids who feel out of place it the biggest problem. It has always been there, it made me a VERY angry kid when I was in school. Just kids see other options now than they did before. It used to be gossip on the bathroom wall and shoving them in the hall. It makes me angry, because there were times in my school age life that violence sounded like a really good idea against the people who were horrible to me. I went to a highschool about 10 minutes from Columbine, same kind of school, very large - fairly well off. And it was easy to feel angry and lost a lot.

There are so many things that MIGHT help. And so many things that might not. It is hard to tell which to try. Parental involvement would help, school involvement would help, enforcing no guns for minors would help. But until society pulls it's collective head out of its butt and realizes that kids are humans and have all sorts of issues that are real and important and starts treating them accordingly, instead of like they are property, nothing will change.
I know this is a lil OT, but I thought it may be relevant. I had problems with bullying in jr. high. I went to a school with a lil over 1000 kids and there were fights at lunch time DAILY. It was so bad that the kids would actually place bets. There was one boy who was known to be particularly rough who got angry when I rejected his romantic advances. He was also the most popular boy in school and the head of a gang. He decided to target and harass me. I was a good girl, did what I was supposed to do and went to the principal. The principal basically slapped him on the hadn and said "bad boy, don't do it again" and that his next offense would mean suspension. He had already been suspended many times, he didn't care.

I was also being harassed daily by a girl at my school. I started carrying a knife to school in a very deep jacket pocket. It was my only means of protecting myself; the adults in my world couldn't or wouldn't help me. I knew I had a better chance of taking the girl on, and when I was eventually backed into a corner and had to fight her, I never used the knife, but the boy and his gang I was very afraid of. Twice my knife fell out of my pocket in the presence of teachers, they watched me pick it up and put it back in my pocket and no one ever said a word. Maybe they didn't give a damn, maybe they knew I was one of the "good" kids and that they couldn't do anything for me so they just had to trust my judgement. I know LOTS of kids who spent their whole school lives in terror. I was lucky, I only had it for a few years.
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#15 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AdinaL
As I said in the previous post- the bigger problem is the way society treats kids...so I am not sure what you though I was saying - but we seem to be agreeing.
Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you at all. I was just trying to put into words what I thought would be better questions to ask ourselves about what we can do. I am new at all this and would like some answers, also. My dd and ds are now in 3rd Grade. My dd is in Kindergarten and I have two that will be going into Kindergarten next year.

Last year, I volunteered at the school and specifically worked with the 'troubled' students. The very students who would tell another kid, "I'm gonna come back here and shoot you!" or "You better not let me find you outside of school!"

You know what really ticked me off? The teachers that would tell these students that they were going to grow up to be nothing if they didn't read some stupid paragraph or do a sheet of math problems.

I would spend one-on-one time with these kids. They were so intelligent and so gifted. Almost every single one of them had parent(s), grandparent(s), or foster parent(s) that used alcohol and/or drugs. They never read at home, but would instead play videogames, watch horror movies, some said they were even allowed to watch porn with the adults who were supposed to be parents.
I never shamed them or made them feel bad. Instead, I did my best to empower them and raise their self-esteem. I have no idea if it worked, as I was pretty much the only adult in their lives giving them these messages. And, to boot, I look like I am a teenager and I was big and pregnant with my baby. :LOL

Off-topic, but a lot of the students thought I was an 8th grader or something, as they were in K-7. My DH was looking at my 7th grade school yearbook and said, "Wow, you haven't changed a bit, have you?!?"

Back on topic, I think my looking so young helped me get close to the kids, and once I was close, we were able to bond because no matter what they said, I never shamed them or made them feel bad. I did ask them open ended questions in the hope to get them thinking, especially when it came to empathy and the ending of the cycle of hurt/violence/abuse.

Realistically, I cannot volunteer all the time like that.
There must be other ways....I wish I knew what they were.
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#16 of 21 Old 10-04-2005, 10:31 PM
 
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I do want to add...

The Columbine killers had someone else buy their guns for them. She would have passed a background check.

I am all for background checks and closing loopholes I just wanted to mention that it wouldn't have helped with Columbine. There is a good chance a background check would have been enough to spook her...sadly we will never know.

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#17 of 21 Old 10-05-2005, 12:50 AM
 
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we have strict gun laws in australia and far fewer shootings. i never hear australians complain that the gun laws are too strict.
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#18 of 21 Old 10-05-2005, 09:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abimommy
I do want to add...

The Columbine killers had someone else buy their guns for them. She would have passed a background check.

I am all for background checks and closing loopholes I just wanted to mention that it wouldn't have helped with Columbine. There is a good chance a background check would have been enough to spook her...sadly we will never know.

You are correct, in an official statement, this is what was said after the incident.

Quote:
Robyn Anderson said in an official statement after the shooting that she would not have bought the guns had she been required to fill out any papers or to give her name to the gun dealer. If there had been any sort of background check, she would not have completed the purchase.
One thing I was not aware of was the fact any adult could buy a gun for a minor in Colorado.
Had she been required to fill out paperwork, she would be commiting a felony by making a straw purchase, which is buying guns for another person. Punishable for up to 10 years in prison.

So what is the solution, How do we get to these kids before they sink to the lowest point and do something wrong? That is really the question here. Are we as a society failing our kids?
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#19 of 21 Old 10-05-2005, 01:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nuttinhny
So what is the solution, How do we get to these kids before they sink to the lowest point and do something wrong? That is really the question here. Are we as a society failing our kids?
There are so many answers to this question. School is tough for a lot of kids. Any kid who doesn't fit into a prescribed notion of acceptable is a potential target.

I think we need to take a good hard look at how our kids are being targeted by the media (magazines and tv shows that show 'perfect' kids), marketing (if you don't have these ultra cool shoes, you're a loser), the list goes on. The media and marketing vampires start on kids early. Like in infancy.

Ever wonder why parents dress their babies in clothes with these huge brand logos on them? This morning I saw a mom holding a baby that was dressed head to toe in Rocca Wear. The baby's outfit had to have cost more than everything I was wearing, including my purse and shoes. Even at such an early age, the battle lines are drawn. Some kids just don't have a chance.
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#20 of 21 Old 10-06-2005, 01:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingogirl
we have strict gun laws in australia and far fewer shootings. i never hear australians complain that the gun laws are too strict.
Actually I have heard that there is more violence and crimes involving guns since your guns laws went into effect.

I guess it depends on who crunches the numbers and what their agenda is.

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#21 of 21 Old 10-06-2005, 02:02 AM
 
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One of the school shootings was stopped by a teacher or administrator who kept a gun in his car. He went to get it and stopped the killers.

I own a gun. I know how to use it. I lock it up as per the law. My DS knows how to use the gun, how to un/load, and clean the gun.

We practice.

A person has a right to defend oneself, and I intend to exercise that right should it ever be necessary.

The police are completely undependable.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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