Study finds prayer to cause complications - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...112892,00.html
According to this study, praying for strangers actually increases their chances of complications from heart surgery.

What are your thoughts? Why do you think the study found those results?
~member~ is offline  
#2 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 04:24 PM
 
Ruthla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 47,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Sounds like the people who knew they were being prayed for were anxious about being on the "prayer list" or possibly were uncomfortable with the idea.

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19 (in Israel for another school year), Hannah, 18 (commuting to college), and Jack, 12(homeschooled)
Ruthla is online now  
#3 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla
Sounds like the people who knew they were being prayed for were anxious about being on the "prayer list" or possibly were uncomfortable with the idea.
Would that be the same as if the patient just did not believe in the power of prayer?

And how do we know how many of the heart patients had somebody praying for ill health? Shouldn't that be included in such a study?
~member~ is offline  
#4 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 04:31 PM
 
Ruthla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 47,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Would that be the same as if the patient just did not believe in the power of prayer?

And how do we know how many of the heart patients had somebody praying for ill health? Shouldn't that be included in such a study?
I'd have to wonder WHO would pray for ill health! Then I thought of an answer: somebody who doesn't beleive in the power of prayer and wants to disprove the study.

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19 (in Israel for another school year), Hannah, 18 (commuting to college), and Jack, 12(homeschooled)
Ruthla is online now  
#5 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla
I'd have to wonder WHO would pray for ill health!
Maybe they have hurt someone bad enough that that person sent out a prayer for ill health.

I mean, if studying if prayer works, shouldn't they be looking at both ends?
~member~ is offline  
#6 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 04:38 PM
 
indie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,807
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There have been other studies that found the opposite. Also they prescribed the exact prayer people should pray which was on their terms not God's terms. I've read about studies in which a "thy will be done" prayer got the best results.

I also wonder how they can have a true control. Do they force people who already know the people undergoing surgery not to pray so the results aren't affected?
indie is offline  
#7 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by indie

I also wonder how they can have a true control. Do they force people who already know the people undergoing surgery not to pray so the results aren't affected?
And HOW much money did they get to the study?
I thought there were guidelines for studies, kwim?
~member~ is offline  
#8 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 10:31 PM
 
JessicaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 43,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by indie
There have been other studies that found the opposite. Also they prescribed the exact prayer people should pray which was on their terms not God's terms. I've read about studies in which a "thy will be done" prayer got the best results.

I also wonder how they can have a true control. Do they force people who already know the people undergoing surgery not to pray so the results aren't affected?
I agree.

Not all those who wander are lost 
JessicaS is offline  
#9 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 10:56 PM
 
Snowdrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Seems to me that using a scientific method to measure a spiritual reality is kinda like trying to smell blue or taste a concerto.
Snowdrift is offline  
#10 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 10:58 PM
 
MountainLaurel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Crescent City
Posts: 1,292
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed
Seems to me that using a scientific method to measure a spiritual reality is kinda like trying to smell blue or taste a concerto.
MountainLaurel is offline  
#11 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed
Seems to me that using a scientific method to measure a spiritual reality is kinda like trying to smell blue or taste a concerto.
That is only true if you believe that spirituality does not exist in the physical world.
They have spectrometers and other devices to measure 'ghosts'...anyone know what I am talking about? Maybe I saw it in a movie, though...
~member~ is offline  
#12 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 11:10 PM
 
numom499's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: utah
Posts: 1,931
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
And how do we know how many of the heart patients had somebody praying for ill health? Shouldn't that be included in such a study?
I don't think God answers those prayers...
numom499 is offline  
#13 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 11:17 PM
 
Snowdrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
That is only true if you believe that spirituality does not exist in the physical world.
They have spectrometers and other devices to measure 'ghosts'...anyone know what I am talking about? Maybe I saw it in a movie, though...
It's not that I don't believe it exists in the physical world, it's more that I don't think science is a good way to quantify it.

Spirituality is so multidimensional and science is so, um, not.

It's a nice bit of novelty, I guess, to be able to photograph a ghost, but should this suggest that spiritual things that defy capture by a recording device effectively do not exist?
Snowdrift is offline  
#14 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 11:31 PM
 
momto l&a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,235
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
In Readers Digest a few years ago they said religion and prayers where good for ones health.


As to the study I say hogwash.
momto l&a is offline  
#15 of 31 Old 03-31-2006, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed

It's a nice bit of novelty, I guess, to be able to photograph a ghost, but should this suggest that spiritual things that defy capture by a recording device effectively do not exist?
Good question. I don't know.

I know that personally, I don't need 'proof' that spirituality is real.....and I guess I think there is a difference between ghosts/angels/spirits that would travel to a sick person and heal them vs the power of the collective human mind sending out healing vibes.......if any of that makes sense.
~member~ is offline  
#16 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 01:44 AM
 
BellinghamCrunchie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Alpha Centauri
Posts: 4,293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There have been studies in the past that indicated prayer does help people recover/get healthier, but they had some flaws, so this was supposed to be "THE" big study to answer the question.

The difference with this study is that it was a double blind: the people in the study didn't know if they were being prayed for or not. So they could have all thought they were being prayed for, so maybe they all did better than they would have, the controls included.

The other difference is that the people doing the praying did not know the person they were praying for. They knew a name; that is all. I think it makes a huge difference when you are praying for someone you know, versus praying for a name. I believe (and this is just my belief) that prayer works, as well as any kind of "sending positive energy" or "visualizing health" not because God hears the prayer and when he hears enough prayers he decides to intervene a little more, but because the more people who join in sending energy and goodwill to another person the more that person is able to receive and utilize that energy. No god involved at all, really. Just people loving each other; all kinds of healing takes place that way. And its hard to send prayer, or energy, or goodwill, to an anonymous name without having feelings for that specific person, or just knowing a bit about them. Even seeing their picture. Names are just labels; not the person himself, and there are no doubt many people on earth with the same name.

[Quote=Indie] I also wonder how they can have a true control. Do they force people who already know the people undergoing surgery not to pray so the results aren't affected? [Quote]

No, all people in the study were told to continue whatever prayers they had going or do whatever they would do if they weren't part of the study. This shouldn't affect outcome because it would be equally applied to both groups. Only one group got additional prayers from people they did not know.
BellinghamCrunchie is offline  
#17 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thank you for your replies.

So, I am wondering, was the complications from not 'receiving' the healing vibes? Or did the praying actually cause the complications?

I sure wouldn't want to pray and then find out I was hurting more than I was helping, kwim?
~member~ is offline  
#18 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The study makes me worried about when here on MDC we all pray or light candles for each other. Could we be hurting each other rather than helping?
Should we stop praying for each other when asked?

Part of me feels like the study was not a valid study and therefore prayer is important, but, then again, that much money for a study , maybe they discovered a truth about prayer?

I wouldn't want to accidentally be causing harm to someone through prayer, kwim?
~member~ is offline  
#19 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 01:50 PM
 
Maggi315's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Don't ya think it would be a better study if it was double-blind? That the people didn't know who they were praying for specifically and the people getting the surgeries didn't know which were being prayed for?

I also think there is an awful lot about the spiritual world we don't understand and we want so desperately to make it fit into our scientific models. But I don't see that happening. I feel that way about birth, too. Some things are spiritual and I can't explain them, but they happen and they are there. And I have grown content and humble enough to quit trying to understand and quantify everything.
Maggi315 is offline  
#20 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 01:58 PM
 
`guest`'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North
Posts: 1,038
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I worked in the research area for years, and let me tell ya, most studies "double blind" or not, are a load of kaplooey. That is to say, the originator of the study usually has one of three problems; a flawed study group (ie not a true crossection of people; races/sex etc.) an intended result, or inadequate/flawed data. Because of this, I have lost pretty much 90% of my faith in western medicine and studies. Unless I break my arm or am in a car accident, then western medicine/methodology is great. Otherwise, it is inherently flawed. If you believe praying helps, then it helps. Period.
`guest` is offline  
#21 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMUM
Unless I break my arm or am in a car accident, then western medicine/methodology is great.
Sorry for laughing. But I just wanted to say your sentence makes it sound like only people in the U.S. break their arms or like Western Medicine is the only 'medicine' that has ever fixed a broken arm.
Broken bones have existed for millenium, and the ability to fix broken bones, has existed just as long.
Personally, I have set and splintered almost every broken bone of mine.
The ones I got as a child were 'fixed' at the doctor's office.
When you don't have insurance or money, it's easy to set your own broken bones. There is nothing 'magical' or difficult about it. These days, you can even get oxycotin or other pain meds on the street.

That's another thread, though.....there are millions in the US without money or insurance, and, yes, they get hurt/sick/broken bones.
~member~ is offline  
#22 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 03:26 PM
 
BellinghamCrunchie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Alpha Centauri
Posts: 4,293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Or did the praying actually cause the complications?

I sure wouldn't want to pray and then find out I was hurting more than I was helping, kwim?
The actual prayer people were instructed to use was: "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" (Bold mine).

There was a 7% increase in complications between the not-prayed for group and the prayed for group.

I believe that prayer is a process of sending energy, or goodwill, or something to another person. When you want to make a change, any change, it is important to think about the change you WANT, and not what you DON'T WANT. Focusing on what you don't want ("oh please dear god please please don't let me die), IMHO, seems to send fear and energy into exactly what you don't want. When people pray for "no complications" some part of their brain, maybe the preverbal part, or maybe even the conscious part, visualizes the complications. Its kind of like saying, "don't think of a pink elephant." You can't help but think of a pink elephant.

Another example: In GD, when you want to help a child change his behavior, its far better to tell them what to do then what not to do: "Don't bang your cup" (where he hears "bang your cup") vs. "Here, lets bang this drum" (where he hears "bang the drum").

Another example: Hatred of war won't bring about peace. Only love of peace will bring about peace.

When a person expresses his desires, or focuses his energy on what he doesn't want, I think of that as fear-based praying. It doesn't seem to work. It seems to feed the very thing you are afraid of. Its more than just using the right words, though. The right words are the way of helping the part of you that reaches out to another with loving intent to send the kind of energy that is most helpful to them. A prayer without words, seeing the person in full health, for example, would probably be just as effective.

Love-based praying would look more like this: Instead of "No complications" one would pray for, "a strong and healthy body." Or something like that.

I think 7% is pretty low (I THINK, but could be wrong, that 5% would have been statistically insignificant). So this is not far from being statistically insignificant. I wonder if the study was repeated if this increase in complications would still be there. I really doubt it.

I think this study could be looked at as an opportunity to explore how to pray more effectively. It would be interesting to tweak a few things (such as having the prayers meet the prayees and changing the wording of the prayer itself) and see what results that produces. Unfortunately, I suspect most scientists will just say, "well, that settles that, issue closed" and not investigate further.
BellinghamCrunchie is offline  
#23 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 03:30 PM
 
Snowdrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Sorry for laughing. But I just wanted to say your sentence makes it sound like only people in the U.S. break their arms or like Western Medicine is the only 'medicine' that has ever fixed a broken arm.
Broken bones have existed for millenium, and the ability to fix broken bones, has existed just as long.
To me, allopathic medicine is good for this kind of thing becaus they are so straightforward and easy to deal with. Stitching a cut for example is so easy that I trust even a doctor to do it, so why bother trying to do it myself?

But internal medicine--things that are more systemic and involved, are often not within the scope of competancy of western medicine or science.

Which goes back to the OP. Western science seems in many ways a binary process. Let's to an experiment to see if x prayer has y effect on z subject. No? Ok, prayer is bad. Science cannot show that actually x prayer had w effect on q subject because w and q were not included in the study.

The whole premise of prayer being successful if it "works" and unsuccessful if it doesn't reduces the entire concept of prayer to a mere bargain. Yes, I may be asking for something, but sometimes the answer is no. Perhaps that prayer was to better me, or you or something else other than the particular helath issue in the particular person I was praying for.

So I agree, I'd gladly go to an MD for a broken bone. Why not? It's easy. But I avoid going to MD's as much as possible to psychological issues. Like prayer--too involved with spirituality, emotions, complicated thigns that western medicine and science don't being to understand.
Snowdrift is offline  
#24 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 04:18 PM
 
`guest`'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North
Posts: 1,038
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tie-dyed
To me, allopathic medicine is good for this kind of thing becaus they are so straightforward and easy to deal with. Stitching a cut for example is so easy that I trust even a doctor to do it, so why bother trying to do it myself?

But internal medicine--things that are more systemic and involved, are often not within the scope of competancy of western medicine or science.

Which goes back to the OP. Western science seems in many ways a binary process. Let's to an experiment to see if x prayer has y effect on z subject. No? Ok, prayer is bad. Science cannot show that actually x prayer had w effect on q subject because w and q were not included in the study.

The whole premise of prayer being successful if it "works" and unsuccessful if it doesn't reduces the entire concept of prayer to a mere bargain. Yes, I may be asking for something, but sometimes the answer is no. Perhaps that prayer was to better me, or you or something else other than the particular helath issue in the particular person I was praying for.

So I agree, I'd gladly go to an MD for a broken bone. Why not? It's easy. But I avoid going to MD's as much as possible to psychological issues. Like prayer--too involved with spirituality, emotions, complicated thigns that western medicine and science don't being to understand.
exactamente. i know people from poor south american countries. One has a withered stump for an arm coz it wasnt set properly. another had five teeth pulled, no anesthesia, because she had decay. I'd say thank goodness for some of the advances of allopathic medicine, but only in these types of situations, where your body can be treated like a machine and "fixed".
By the way the terms "western medicine" and allopathic medicine are interchangeable. Western medicine does not solely apply to the u.s, just fyi.
`guest` is offline  
#25 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
Banned
 
~member~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: on a lily pad
Posts: 13,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMUM
One has a withered stump for an arm coz it wasnt set properly. another had five teeth pulled, no anesthesia, because she had decay.
i would say that was 'malpractice' and not really anything to do with Western Medicine or 'advances'.
I think it comes down to the fact that people today are not taught how to know their own body.
Every single time I have broken a bone, I knew exactly which bone and where it was broken. I was able to set it myself and I did have to ask help with splintering.
I was always breastfeeding, so i never took any pain meds. Meditation worked well for pain relief.

Also, was the person in question able to rest and heal? Or did they have to go to work right away?

The three bones that never set right for me, were because I had to keep working. I could not afford to take off work. I was an Auto Service Repair technician, at the time, so, you can imagine what it was like fixing engines and U-joints with broken fingers and a broken foot bone.
~member~ is offline  
#26 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 04:39 PM
 
mezzaluna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 1,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i am not a believer in any spiritual way or in any supernatural forces or agents. this study reminded me of my discomfort at the request of some of DH's relatives to find out when i went into labor so they could pray for me.

since it meant nothing to me and meant something to them, i relented and decided to allow them to be contacted when i went into labor. but i can definitely relate to the idea that knowing you're being prayed for can make you uneasy!

Rosemary & Gary :
James 12/04 & Cecelia 4/07
mezzaluna is offline  
#27 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 04:45 PM
 
`guest`'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North
Posts: 1,038
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
MITB, that's great that you knew what was going on in your body. I guess I just wouldn't do that. The girl I knew with a withered arm had it broken when she was 6, and it was never set, so it grew improperly. If my child had her arm broken, I wouldn't just pray, I'd go see a doctor.
Prayer is something very personal, as the pp said, it might even make some people nervous, set up expectations if it isn't in alignment with the patient's personal belief system. Or maybe some are just passive agressive and don't want to get better...there's all kinds. But if you think it works, I say go for it.
`guest` is offline  
#28 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 04:54 PM
 
newcastlemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: My happy place
Posts: 3,988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Since this is the only study that shows the negative effects of prayer on patients, (I just saw another one last night that was positive), I will keep praying....actually, no matter what they say I will!

homebirth.jpg<>< Mama to DS, DD, and a new baby girl 4/1! homeschool.gifmdcblog5.gif

newcastlemama is offline  
#29 of 31 Old 04-01-2006, 11:31 PM
 
Snowdrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMUM
MITB, that's great that you knew what was going on in your body. I guess I just wouldn't do that. The girl I knew with a withered arm had it broken when she was 6, and it was never set, so it grew improperly. If my child had her arm broken, I wouldn't just pray, I'd go see a doctor.
I think the point isn't that a broken arm doesn't need to be treated or that one should pray instead of treating it, but rather than it's perfectly possible to treat it competantly without going to an MD. Personally, I'd go to an MD--but only bc that is all I have access to. If I had a broken bone and someone skilled and knowledgeable was available to treat it without me having to deal witht he unpleasant side effects of going to an ER, I'd much prefer to do that.

But traditional medicine is not the same thing as no medicine.

No one was suggesting praying instead of seeking medical care--of whatever type is appropriate. The while issue came up as an analogue to spiritual phemonema--too complex to be limited by Western science or Western/allopathic medicine. (yeah, western medicine is of course synomnymous with allopathic medicine. Used allopathic in my last post bc I was using the term western science and was trying to draw a clear distinction between science in general and medicine in particular).



Prayer is something very personal, as the pp said, it might even make some people nervous, set up expectations if it isn't in alignment with the patient's personal belief system. Or maybe some are just passive agressive and don't want to get better...there's all kinds. But if you think it works, I say go for it.[/QUOTE]
Snowdrift is offline  
#30 of 31 Old 04-02-2006, 01:46 AM
 
`guest`'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North
Posts: 1,038
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Tie dyed, I think we are on the same page, but maybe I am just not articulating what I am trying to. I was addressing the western/allopathic thing to mitb cause I thought she had said US=Western med. anyway, I am just not articulating what I want to say, I totally agree with you.
`guest` is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off