Father, Daughter Die in Suspicious Plane Crash - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/05/ind....ap/index.html

"A pilot took his 8-year-old daughter up in a small plane Monday and crashed it into his former mother-in-law's house in southern Indiana, killing himself and the girl, authorities said.

A preliminary crash investigation leads "us to believe that this was an intentional act," Indiana State Police spokesman 1st Sgt. Dave Bursten said.

The crash in Bedford, about 20 miles south of Bloomington, killed Eric Johnson, 47, of Bedford, and his daughter Emily, Bursten said."

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Please People. If you really feel the need to kill yourself, can you not kill your innocent children as well???

for Emily

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#2 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 01:37 AM
 
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No kidding - what kind of evil has to be in you to kill your child in this way? (In any way of course but to put her through the terror of a plane crash...)

Never mind - I don't want to know.
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#3 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 02:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by umsami View Post
Please People. If you really feel the need to kill yourself, can you not kill your innocent children as well???
This sounds like a classic case of killing your kids to get revenge on your ex. : Unfortunately not too surprising.
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#4 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 10:29 AM
 
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It actually sounds to me as untreated mental illness.

Men's emotional health has largely been ignored and this is how it negatively effects us in the long run. This man killed himself in the process of killing his child that is a clue into his mental health. Yes, he could be just abusive arse but at the same time he still has mental health issues that must be address to end abuse.
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#5 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 12:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post
It actually sounds to me as untreated mental illness.

Men's emotional health has largely been ignored and this is how it negatively effects us in the long run. This man killed himself in the process of killing his child that is a clue into his mental health. Yes, he could be just abusive arse but at the same time he still has mental health issues that must be address to end abuse.
Thank you.

Mentally healthy people remove themselves from harms way. They don't stay in froont of an oncoming car, they remove their hands from open flames, they do all they can to preserve life and limb.

When one is in a suicidal ideation mode, one is disconnected from one's body. Rational thinking is replaced by irrational thinking. Thinking errors are rampant. The desire to preserve life and limb goes by the wayside.

Someone who is contemplating/planning/carrying out suicidal thoughts is not someone in a mentally healthy place. Making rational decisions, such as not harming others on the sucidal person's way out does not happen.

My heart aches for this man. What torment he must have been in... My heart aches for his daughter. A life ended before she even had a chance to live. I hurt for the whole family.... Suicide leaves many gaping wounds in it's wake. And in this situation, I'm sure those wounds will be especially difficult.

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#6 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post
It actually sounds to me as untreated mental illness.

Men's emotional health has largely been ignored and this is how it negatively effects us in the long run. This man killed himself in the process of killing his child that is a clue into his mental health. Yes, he could be just abusive arse but at the same time he still has mental health issues that must be address to end abuse.
I'm sorry, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the man. One could argue that anybody who kills anyone has mental health issues. He crashed his plane into his mother-in-law's house. He killed his daughter, who was innocent. If he wanted to kill himself, there were plenty of ways to do so... without harming his daughter or potentially harming his mother-in-law.

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#7 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 12:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by umsami View Post
I'm sorry, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the man. One could argue that anybody who kills anyone has mental health issues. He crashed his plane into his mother-in-law's house. He killed his daughter, who was innocent. If he wanted to kill himself, there were plenty of ways to do so... without harming his daughter or potentially harming his mother-in-law.
Again, you are applying rational thought process to a man who was not capable of having rational thoughts.

EVERY suicide harms people. Even when nobody else is physically harmed when the person completes their death. EVERY person who completes suicide is in a place of such pain that they can think beyond ending that pain.

Please remember as you post on this thread that there are people here who have lost loved ones to suicide. Try to post in a manner that does not add insult to injury

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#8 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Please remember as you post on this thread that there are people here who have lost loved ones to suicide. Try to post in a manner that does not add insult to injury
I've lost two people to suicide. A good friend killed himself one month before my 16th birthday. And more disturbingly, the father of my brother's stepson shot himself in front of his 6 year old son. Yes, I know suicide harms more than the person who kills themselves. BUT... I'm sorry, it's hard to have sympathy for a person who kills an innocent girl as well... same with the man in a different post today who set himself and his two young kids on fire.

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#9 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 12:24 PM
 
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Umsami do you feel the same way towards women that kill their children?
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#10 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 12:27 PM
 
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I have sympathy for him because I can understand how desperate he must have been feeling. How overwhelming his pain must have been.

Someone I love dearly was recently in the hospital for severe PPD. Her OB was giving her meds but apparently had no idea what he was doing (I know he didn't he screwed it up so bad).

Anyway, she ended up in the hospital for a short time to keep her and her kids safe. She was suicidal, immensely so. Her plan was to drive up one of the canyons here and miss the turn. With her kids in the car.

At the time, it made perfect sense to her. Her pain would end and her babies would not have to grow up without mommy. They'd be together.

Looking back, she can now see how skewed her thing was. But at the time, it seemed as rational as going to the grocery store to get milk.

I have another friend that I met through my work with Compassionate Friends. Her dh shot their two children and then himself. Instead of being angry and hateful with him, she mourns all three. Her babes who never grew up and her dh who was in such pain that day that he saw no other way. She's angry at herself for not seeing how bad things were for him.

All I'm asking is that there be a modicum of respect and compassion for the survivors.

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#11 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post
Umsami do you feel the same way towards women that kill their children?

I seem to remember a show of compassion for Andrea Yates..... PPD and PPP ... Quite a few could understand how she ended up where she went...

Quite different when it is a mama with PPD or PPP vs. a daddy with his own mental health issues...

Quite an imbalance I'd say.

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#12 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Umsami do you feel the same way towards women that kill their children?
Yes, absolutely. No sympathy whatsoever for Andrea Yates and co. But I feel that way for anybody who kills an innocent person... especially a child...regardless. So it's not limited to Moms and Dads. One could argue that the pedophile who rapes and kills kids has mental issues as well, which he does... but that doesn't mean my sympathy does not lie with the victim, rather than the perp.

I agree that there still exists a major stigma in this country about getting help with regards to mental illness... and that stigma seems greater among men than women. In general, men are less likely to seek medical treatment of any sort. BUT, it does not excuse this person's behavior IMHO.

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#13 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Article has been updated on CNN...

The mother thought he had abducted their daughter and had gone to Police to report the abduction.

""I thought he would do something to get back at Beth," Pace said. "He was a very possessive person. He got what he wanted.""


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#14 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 03:44 PM
 
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It actually sounds to me as untreated mental illness.

Men's emotional health has largely been ignored and this is how it negatively effects us in the long run. This man killed himself in the process of killing his child that is a clue into his mental health. Yes, he could be just abusive arse but at the same time he still has mental health issues that must be address to end abuse.
Huh? Where in the article does it state the man was mentally ill? Did I miss that line?

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How sad for everyone involved. I agree that the father must have been in such pain... What a horrible tragedy.
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#16 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 03:46 PM
 
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Huh? Where in the article does it state the man was mentally ill? Did I miss that line?
Mentally healthy people do not do what this father did.

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#17 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 03:47 PM
 
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Mentally healthy people do not do what this father did.

Janis
Ah, gotcha.

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#18 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 04:10 PM
 
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This happened right near my parents house. Anyone who kills someone...themselves, someone else, in the case both (this was apparently an attempted murder of the MIL too who was in the home at the time but no injured) it is a sign of mental illness. I think all killers are mentally ill to some extent except heat of the moment killings perhaps. I believe all suicides are people who are not thinking clearly. I have two friends who have experienced this in their life-one with a spouse and another with a child. Those deaths were actions of people completely out of rational thought and encompassed in pain. They were not thinking about the impact on their families. In some suicides there is anger and that plays into it of course I'm sure. In suicides of women experiencing post-partum depression and in the cases of killing children too I think they are clearly mentally in a place past rational thought and often post-partum psychosis plays a part to some extent when the children are included in the plan. They are not in my knowledge normally seeking revenge on their husbands but rather trying to protect their children in some way in their ill minds.

However, indicators are that this man was I would think quite angry and seeking revenge through his act. Which puts a whole other spin on it in my mind. Clearly he was mentally unbalanced and most murderers are. However, especially when you put the mother in law into this, I believe he was also a murderer in a way that most suicides (including pp ones involving children) are not. And male or female has nothing to do with that.

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#19 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 04:43 PM
 
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Article has been updated on CNN...

The mother thought he had abducted their daughter and had gone to Police to report the abduction.

""I thought he would do something to get back at Beth," Pace said. "He was a very possessive person. He got what he wanted.""

Could you please link to the article where you found this quote? Because I cannot find it in any of the ones I've read.

In fact, the CNN article says, "State police had no record of disputes between the Johnsons, Bursten said."

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#20 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 05:12 PM
 
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To me, a murder-suicide done for revenge is entirely different from a situation in which an already suicidal parent decides to take the children with them so they can all be together in heaven (which I find creepy, but then I'm an atheist).

Any case in which children are killed during a divorce or conflict between the parents sounds like a case of anger and irrational possessiveness to me. It's not at all the same thing as killing your kids as an extension of your own suicidal grief. Saying they're the same, to me, is like saying there's no difference between Susan Smith and Andrea Yates, which I find incomprehensible.
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#21 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Could you please link to the article where you found this quote? Because I cannot find it in any of the ones I've read.

In fact, the CNN article says, "State police had no record of disputes between the Johnsons, Bursten said."
Sorry, I thought the link was the same as the original one. Here you go:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/06/ind....ap/index.html

They've added even more since I posted earlier:

"Pace told reporters outside her damaged home Tuesday that Johnson called her daughter, Beth Johnson, by cell phone shortly before the crash.

He told his ex-wife: "I've got her, and you're not going to get her," she said.

Pace, who was home but wasn't injured, said she believed the crash was deliberate.

"That was the only way he could hurt Beth. That was the only way he could get to her," she said."

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#22 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 05:19 PM
 
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So, so dreadful. I can't imagine.
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#23 of 42 Old 03-06-2007, 10:06 PM
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I don't know if this even has an answer but at some point there must be a point where rage, envy, jealously, spite, revenge and hate do not overlap mental illness.
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#24 of 42 Old 03-07-2007, 12:51 AM
 
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Stating "mental illness" implies that the symptoms can be treated or even cured. I think there is a difference in killers. The term "mental illness" isn't accurate for me. When I think of "mental illness" I think of men and women who suffer from a condition that causes them to act in ways beyond their control. I see those men and women as loving and capable and sincere as the next person. Killers ---- I do not see in the same light. So maybe "mentally detached" but not "mentally ill". Killers are not in the same group as normal men and women who suffer from bipolar disorder and other mental issues...so please....give it a different name.

Poor little girl...may she rest in peace.
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#25 of 42 Old 03-07-2007, 11:35 AM
 
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I've lost two people to suicide. A good friend killed himself one month before my 16th birthday. And more disturbingly, the father of my brother's stepson shot himself in front of his 6 year old son. Yes, I know suicide harms more than the person who kills themselves. BUT... I'm sorry, it's hard to have sympathy for a person who kills an innocent girl as well... same with the man in a different post today who set himself and his two young kids on fire.
I continue to be confused in these threads on why people feel it is so important to establish what their personal judgment is for the people we're talking about in articles.

I mean, quite frankly, who cares if you "have sympathy" for him or not? It seems so arrogant to go to such lengths to establish what your opinion of his actions were.

The man is dead, and his daughter is dead. You don't actually know anything about the situation. Why is it so important to you to point out your personal feelings toward the topic?
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#26 of 42 Old 03-07-2007, 11:37 AM
 
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MMmmmm... I just love the fresh scent of snark in the morning air.

Not.

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#27 of 42 Old 03-07-2007, 11:39 AM
 
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Stating "mental illness" implies that the symptoms can be treated or even cured. I think there is a difference in killers. The term "mental illness" isn't accurate for me. When I think of "mental illness" I think of men and women who suffer from a condition that causes them to act in ways beyond their control. I see those men and women as loving and capable and sincere as the next person. Killers ---- I do not see in the same light. So maybe "mentally detached" but not "mentally ill". Killers are not in the same group as normal men and women who suffer from bipolar disorder and other mental issues...so please....give it a different name.

Poor little girl...may she rest in peace.
I will have to disagree with this. There are many mental conditions where a person has a desire to hurt themselves or others due to their illness. Why would it have a "different name"? Violent thoughts or desires is one of the symptoms of a mental illness.
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#28 of 42 Old 03-07-2007, 11:42 AM
 
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Also many mentally ill people that seam to just "snap" actually have been suffering for a long time. They have been ignored. And in many cases dealing with men they are told to BE A MAN and get over it. Men aren't suppose to have emotions and are suppose to be strong, et.

Adding to the issues of getting help for mentally ill men.
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#29 of 42 Old 03-07-2007, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I continue to be confused in these threads on why people feel it is so important to establish what their personal judgment is for the people we're talking about in articles.

I mean, quite frankly, who cares if you "have sympathy" for him or not? It seems so arrogant to go to such lengths to establish what your opinion of his actions were.
Kristi--If you look at the post previous to that, you'll see that Janis stated, "Please remember as you post on this thread that there are people here who have lost loved ones to suicide. Try to post in a manner that does not add insult to injury." I was simply replying that I'm well aware of the pain of suicide and that does not color my opinion on this.

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The man is dead, and his daughter is dead. You don't actually know anything about the situation. Why is it so important to you to point out your personal feelings toward the topic?
Isn't that the point of these and other BBSs? To post our own opinions on that matter? Otherwise, they can just put a news feed here and there is no need for comments at all.

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#30 of 42 Old 03-07-2007, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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CNN has updated the article again... aparently there were a lot of issues around the divorce... police being called for protective custody, etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/06/ind....ap/index.html

It breaks my heart that the Mom had to hear her daughter say on the phone, "Mommy, Come get me!"

"Court records showed Beth Johnson had obtained a restraining order against her husband on July 14, 2006, but police would not disclose the reasons.

Pace said Johnson threatened his wife with a gun last summer in an effort to change her mind about the divorce. Bedford police said they never received a complaint about the alleged incident.

Mary Webb, who lived across from the Johnsons for about 12 years, said police cars were parked outside the home for several weeks last summer. Eric Johnson told her they were there to protect his wife and daughter."

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