DD's first 'consequence' lesson at school today.... - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 03:42 AM
 
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it is late and I will rewrite this tomorrow
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#32 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 08:25 AM
 
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Alegria, thank you for editing. I didn't personally take offense, but I could see how others might have that i know visit this forum all the time and feel quite passionate about their choice to use public schools. It might have just been a matter of wording. Please know that vigorous discussion is quite welcome!; just not if it questions others choices already made.

We actually did have an interesting discussion about the topic you wondered about; if I can find it, I'll resurrect it and bring it fwd.

 
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#33 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 08:31 AM
 
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I pulled up the thread--it's named 'Against Education' in Harper's Magazine, if anyone wants to have a look (re: compulsory schooling, quality of education, teachers, etc.)

 
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#34 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 11:07 AM
 
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I just wanted to state that i believe all people are worthy of respect. Simply because they are people. I am a high school teacher (could ya tell?) and I rarely see my colleagues come at a student with anything other than respect. Yet I sometimes see teenagers snap, yell, and insult teachers for no other reason than they are doing their job, i.e. assigning a homework, administering a quiz, collecting an essay. To me this is unacceptable. I say thank you to every student when I collect their work. Do I have to? No. It is simply polite interaction in a civilized society.

I have been called a bitch more times than i care to count, simply for things like refusing to raise a grade that a student has earned. I can't fathom doing that to another person. I often ask myself, "Why do they feel it is acceptable for them to call me names?" The only answer I can arrive at is they have not been taught that this is not the way people act, and there have been no consequences for such rudeness.

I am not saying that ALL teachers are perfect. In my experience, though, the vast majority are polite and treat students with respect. That said, the vast majority of students are also polite and treat others with respect. However, you would not believe the amount of time that is wasted in a classroom when one student cannot be polite and "mouths off" frequently.

As far as janitors go. they are there to keep the general work area clean...the blackboards, the floors, to fix things, like the heat, or the lights. If the taxpayers had to pay for janitors to clean up the mess of every kid at the lunch table or desk, you would be paying an awful lot in taxes, and you would then be complaining about that. Every person, adult and child should clean up whatevver mess they make in this world. A janitor is also worthy of respect.

Alegria, I am not disagreeing with all that you say, but in my experience, following reasonable directions of another is part of life. My boss tells me I must have my lesson plans in on Monday. I think lesson plans are a waste of time, because I can teach the unit with my eyes closed. I still hand in my plans. He has power over me. Even the principal must answer to the school board. We all must answer to someone. Someone will have power over you your whole life. if we can make those interactions polite and respectful, it is much more pleasant for everyone involved.

I am finding this an interesting debate!
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#35 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 02:48 PM
 
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Maggie-I agree! So sad but I used to have many of those same issues when I taught 3rd grade. That was the "culture" of that school.
Switched schools and, oh my....an entirely different environment! No-one slashed my tires or wrapped my tail pipe anymore. Now, just to deal w/overprotective parents.:LOL
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#36 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 05:55 PM
 
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Maggie,

My dh is a public high school teacher, and his experiences mirror yours. I also work out of the home in a university and I see similar kinds of things.

I have worked in all sorts of environments and the point you make about always having someone to report to is quite valid, unless one plans to be self-employed. But even then, one still has to answer to customers.
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#37 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 06:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by BusyMommy
Now, just to deal w/overprotective parents.:LOL
Oh, you must be ds's teacher

I agree with those who pointed out that we all have to answer to someone. Also, we all have to abide by certain rules. Even adults have to obey speed limits and not litter and if we fail to do these things, consequences will be imposed. Is this all just supposed to happen suddenly at age 18 and up until then kids can just do whatever they want while the parents and teachers follow after them cleaning up their messes? Btw, this is not directed at the OP, this is just a general question.
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#38 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 06:19 PM
 
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I have worked in all sorts of environments and the point you make about always having someone to report to is quite valid, unless one plans to be self-employed. But even then, one still has to answer to customers.
But adults choose to get jobs. Children don't always choose to be in school. And on the job, when I have failed to clean my desk, my boss spoke respectfully to me and asked very nicely if I would clean it, instead of saying that if I didn't clean my desk I couldn't have a donut with the rest of the office, or imposing some other nonsensical consequence.

Workplaces also encourage indivuduality (at least, the nicer places I have worked, and I wouldn't accept another job that didn't!) so they will work with you on certain things. Most public schools encourage conformity.

Traffic consequences don't really make sense (what does money have to do with stop signs?) but again, adults choose to drive.
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#39 of 44 Old 02-11-2004, 12:12 PM
 
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So I take it your argument is against public schools?

Anyway, most teachers (like your boss) will start out asking very nicely, making thier request. There is a problem though, when the child screams no at the top of their lungs, ignores the request, or reacts in other ways that children tend to do at times. I just don't buy the argument that kids are just like adults, only smaller. They do not reason the way adults do and do not use the same logic before a certain age. When there are many kids in one class, there is a need for general rules that all the students have to follow, rather than just making it up as you go along and changing the rules based on specific situations.
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#40 of 44 Old 02-11-2004, 01:32 PM
 
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With nearly 25 years experience in the workplace, in a wide variety of settings, I have yet to see a place that genuinely encourages individuality in employees on anything but a superficial level. Many give it lip service, but when push comes to shove, it's all about following the rules.

That's probably truer than ever given the state of the economy, when the boss could hire 50 people to do your job by the time you had your desk packed up. Management texts (and my job is selecting them) are loaded with advice about fostering corporate culture, encouraging "team players" and other stuff which means keeping the clones in line.
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#41 of 44 Old 02-11-2004, 09:18 PM
 
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I bet if you took a survey of adults, none of them would say they "choose to get jobs" A job is a necessity for people in order to support their families. In this economy and otherwise, some can ill afford to quit or be fired from their job. Therefore they learn to get along and to do what is needed or requested of them.

I noticed that you mentioned that your boss was respectful. That is exactly my point. This is how we should all treat one another. I imagine he may have even said please when he made the request.

Don't misunderstand me, I think children should enjoy childhood, and certainly not all the same rules apply to them as do adults. However, no one should infringe on the rights of another, and this is what people who have not learned consequences often do. The student who calls the teacher a bitch takes time and attention away from other students. The child who does not clean their space leaves a mess for the next child (possibly your child). The person who speeds endangers the life of other drivers.

What type of penalty do you propose we impose on a person who speeds? it must be something that "hits them where it hurts" Most people understand the pocketbook. It is not cruel and unusual punishment. I don't know of another penalty that could apply to all drivers.

I suppose we will have to "agree to disagree" on this issue.
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#42 of 44 Old 02-11-2004, 09:42 PM
 
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Just wanted to share -

My kids like to work, we all work in our home. We clean together, we learn together, we prepare our food together, we clear together, we sleep together, we all treat each other with gentle words and ways.
The very first thing my children learn is how to take care of themselves, then how to care for the environment around them, next they care for each other and our family pets. We do not assign chores and we have no sibling rivalry or fighting that I have seen in other families.
The kids take great pride & intrinsic satisfaction in their work at home and how they care for each other builds their self -esteem and their compassion for each other, I believe that not allowing them to learn this is shutting a door that is very hard to open later on. That to me is very sad, reading about a child not allowed to work disturbs me..
The look on a toddlers face when they are sweeping is wonderfully intense, a 5 yr old with a dustbuster is mastering his world, a 9 yr old that cares for the plants, carefully wiping each leave and misting them is learning about the cycle of life and how we all depend on each other. They enjoy making a place for things and doing repeptitve tasks is calming, they have self control over their world at home. To my kids, work = a form of play. Honestly.

And in my not so vast parenting experience - I have learned that children learn respect in a variety of ways and that continually changes as they age/mature. Even now at 40+ I feel I have learned a deeper level of respect then I had in my 20s and 30s.
There are many many more ways for children to learn respect then just by being respected by adults.

Part of the reason I will no longer teach in ps is the lack of respect I received from my students and the parents. It is also a large part of why we homeschool, so that I can find peers for my children that are not out of control, if we are in a hs group with children and adults that do not follow rules and are not respectful (which happens as much as the ps crowd) we can leave to find a dif group- or ask them to leave.

Maggie05 - your post is insightful


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#43 of 44 Old 02-11-2004, 09:45 PM
 
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What would really hurt unlawful drivers is a loss of driving privileges. Of course, they would have to track it somehow, but they could just take your license and put a boot on your car. That would do a little. Then jail if caught driving.

Some adults can choose whether or not they work outside the home, as opposed to being self-employed, a SAHM, a student, living with their parents, etc. Many people have the luxury of choosing the kind of workplace environment in which they will work.

Workplaces do have consequences for not following the rules, but as I said before, the consequences are not overly harsh or arbitrary. They are also explained to the employee during orientation. The employee can then decide, "You know, I don't think I can work in an office where you aren't allowed to chew tobacco indoors" unlike the public (or private) school student who can't say "Well, nice to meet you, but I wouldn't do well with your rules, so no thanks."

I don't know if my real issue is with PS - my issue is with adults who have too much power over children and who impose consequences that don't really make sense.
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#44 of 44 Old 02-11-2004, 11:58 PM
 
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I think another way of looking at things is that there are some people (children and grown ups alike), based on their temperament, who do better with internal motivators (altruism, moral code, love, helpfulness). There are others who do better with external motivators (fear of getting in trouble, knowing a reward will come for doing it, etc.) In my home we have one of each. Before I became a parent, I never would have thought I would have to use external motivation for a child because it went against everything I (thought I) believed. I believed that children should be taught to do things or follow the rules because it was the right thing to do and it helped everyone out.

Well, like Vanna's Mom, in my emerging and not so vast parenting experience I am now seeing the impact of temperament and sensory issues on a child's 'willingness' to do what's right. People are all different, and I have ds who 'needs' an external motivation to do what's right......meanwhile I believe he is slowly 'internalizing' the concepts so that hopefully someday he will do it "because." I have struggled long and hard with this as a very attachment focused parent, that just couldn't believe that my relationship with my ds (which is great) was not enough to motivate him to do what is right, because of his other issues.

That said, I think the schools are dealing with many different types of learners and many different temperaments. Ideally, they would figure out how each child learns and how each child responds to consequences (internal or external, natural or imposed). To say that one size fits all doesn't work. If we say that external imposed consequences are NEVER right, we are not serving a portion of children who DO respond only to that (for better or worse). Often in schools the staff have to act reflexively and do the best they can. Do they sometimes wish that they had been more creative and used natural consequences? I think they do, and friends and members here who are teachers tell me this is true. We are surely all human and trying our best.

 
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