Later, I asked her what she did while the others were swimming, she said she colored. Then she joined the kids at the gym...(they go to the gym after swimming).
She seems totally fine about this...and said, "Next time, I'm going to help clean up."
How would you feel about this? I'm mostly fine...just feels weird having someone else impose consequences on my child....
Guess that comes with school though.....
I'm glad your dd doesn't seem to be bothered by it, as that is what matters most. . My dd is not school aged yet. But I know what you mean and that is why I really don't want to send her to school. Maybe whatever your dd was doing was more important at the moment, play is work for kids that age. I don't agree with punishing children. That ONLY teaches them to DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD, or we will do something unrelated to make you feel bad. CLeaning up messes, responsability, helping others are important, but imho I'd rather dd learn to do those things out of internal motivation and her own will, not because shes being threatened.
Same goes for clean-up. I don't plan on enforcing that rule at home - adults do the work in our home, not children - so I don't want her to have to clean at school.
If the consequences enforced at school were the same as the ones I would do at home, then I would have no problem with it. But I think it's the wrong way to go. Instead of punishing a kid because they won't do something, why not make them want to do it? Anything can be turned into a game if the adult in charge is willing to be creative instead of just saying "Do it now."
And manners are important everywhere, and can also be part of being a normal child.
I don't like it though when the teacher mentions attention problems. Like someone said, you can make anything fun and a game. When they do cool stuff he pays attention. He already knows bs work when he sees it.
We use things like this to talk about responsibilty and conformity with him. Yes, he needs to help clean up. If he knows the assignment is busy work we still expect him to make the effort, but explain to him why they are doing busy work. and what natural and imposed consequences happen if he does not participate.
I think taking away the swimming was a bit harsh though...it's a once a week activity for crying out loud! Was this a first time offense or a repeat offense?
|it's a once a week activity for crying out loud! Was this a first time offense or a repeat offense?|
I"m not going to criticise, I just want to know if she's running into 'problems' with dd at school on a regular basis.
I do want her to clean up after HERSELF at home, but I don't take away privilidges...if one of her toys gets stepped on because it was left on the floor...which has happened NUMEROUS times : , then I think she learns to value her things more..and she has, with the 'odd' slip...
thx for your imput.
So glad I ran into you
Anyways,when I first read yoru post I was actually really upset.So,I took a sec to try to figure out why???????
Its because I thought ,,,,what does her NOT going swimming have to do with her not picking up after herself?
To me its kinda a smallie,deserving a smallie concequence,not something as big as not swimming.It just doesnt seem to "fit the crime"KWIM?
The teacher agreed with me that this is NOT a logical consequence. And said the ONLY time a child should not be allowed to swim is IF THEY'RE ACTING UNSAFELY IN THE POOL AFTER BEING WARNED....
She told me, with your daughter, I make clean up time a game, and she responds really well to that!!!
Anyway, the principal apologized, and they will be meeting with the teacher's aid on Monday, who was on a sick day today!!!
I'm so relieved, I really needed to hear her teacher tell me she agree with me, and that that was NOT a logical consequence!!!!
Yeah, the aid wasn't there, but the principal and the teacher did apologise to Soleil.
And they will be having a meeting with the aid on Monday.
I offered to bring parenting books on Monday for the aid to read.
Now, Are you serious? You don't WANT your child to learn manners? They are not supposed to learn to say please and thank you when another person does something kind for them? You decided that this was a reason to not select a school? I am really shocked...I don't get that one AT ALL.
I don't want dd to learn that just because she's a child, she has to treat adults with a certain amount of respect that they do not have to show to her. I don't think that, at age 2, she should be expected to "ask nicely" for something. As long as she doesn't scream or hit me, that's good enough for me.
I also think manners should be taught in the home and not in school (at least for my family). The reason is that manners taught in school often center around gender roles, though they will claim they don't. I don't want dd to learn that she has to speak differently to boys than she would to girls. Schools also teach that children must defer to adults, while I believe in a more democratic approach. They aren't going to teach different manners to different students.
I want her to learn that she is entitled to respect from adults, and that she should only respect those who respect her first. I haven't found a school that supports that philosophy.
At home, if I want dh to bring me something or cook a special dinner, I don't say "please." I just say "Hey, can I have..." So I don't think dd should be expected to say please either. We say thank you a lot, but that's totally voluntary.
Perhaps when she is a little older we will work on "social graces" but again, at home, not at school.
Also, in reference to teaching your daughter to show respect ONLY to those who show her respect first: if this is your philosophy, then no one should show HER any respect, since she will not exhibit it first. A teacher could then treat her disrespectfully, becasue she has not acted respectfully to that teacher first. (that is how your philosophy would work, only in reverse towards your dd.) I feel a better philosphy might be to show all people respect UNTIL they prove that they don't deserve respect.
The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it. We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.
Greaseball, I have to disagree with you here. I don't see anything wrong with please and thank you and it works both ways. At my child's school I routinely hear the teachers thanking the kids for things as well. I haven't actually heard them prompt kids for a "please" or "thank you", but they do model manners. My kids say please and thank you not because we have forced them but because they hear us say it. "hey you, go get me this" would not be acceptable in my house from my child or my husband. I just wonder how your child is going to get along in the real world later on if she is expected people to jump when she snaps her fingers since that's the way it works in your home: I don't mean that as an insult, I honestly don't understand. As for cleaning, I agree with the poster who said she doubts they have the kids scrubbing toilets. We are probably talking about putting away the kids *own* things. Is the teacher really expected to go around and tidy up each child's desk for them? I don't think the kids should be paid to clean up their own things.:
I do think kids need to learn manners and I think they should be modeled and practiced at home and at school.
|At home, if I want dh to bring me something or cook a special dinner, I don't say "please." I just say "Hey, can I have..."|
But, re: OP, although the consequence wasn't directly related to the action, I think it's awesome that your daughter understood. If I don't take responsibility for my actions; ie. clean my area, then I lose a privilege. Glad you guys got it worked out, but to your dd for being so mature
|We are probably talking about putting away the kids *own* things. Is the teacher really expected to go around and tidy up each child's desk for them? I don't think the kids should be paid to clean up their own things.|
If any of you here have a maid, do you still clean up after yourself? I wouldn't.
Maybe someday I will see a need for manners but not at age 2. Perhaps at age 4 or 5 we will start off with small things like please and thank you.
I don't think it's the words that are important, but what you are trying to convey. Often, if dh does something nice for me, I'll say something like "Hey, I really appreciated that! It was so nice of you to do that for me." I think showing sincere appreciation is more important than saying "thank you." I guess I believe in "magic attitudes" and not "magic words."
I think the issue is much deeper than "Please and thank you."
It's a societal issue where adults in general dont treat children with respect, especially in schools. They have POWER OVER children.
Adults, including teachers, are fallible, but they assume to know more and always to be right without even listening to a child.
And like I said before, forced consequences are just a scare tactic.
I don't want dd to learn to obey orders with out thinking things through. I want her to choose her direction in life, I don't want her doing busy work. I want her to have power in her own life. and her own education.
I think it's important that parents re-examin the values we were taught. We might change some of our core beliefs after deeper exporation about where they came from.
It would be interesting to have a discussion about what a public education is meant to do. in terms of preserving the status quo, training an obediant work force and raising consumers.
Children ONLY learn respect by being RESPECTED. I agree that Adults have the responsibility to first treat children respectfully, and continue to be respectful even if a child is disrespectful because the child is the one learning and she learns by example
If I child is disrespectful to me I tell them in a kind and gental way how it makes me feal and I show them how I want them to talk to me. It works pretty well.
but There is a distinction between natural consequence and 'because you didn't do what I wanted you do do, I'm going to cause you discomfort in some way' to "teach you a lesson"
The lesson the child get's isn't usually the lesson the adult is trying to teach. What does swimming have to do with cleaning. It's not teaching resposibility, it might be teaching avoidance of punishment, fear of adults or obedience, I'm not very fond of blind obedience. I don't force my 3.5 year old to OBEY me. I treat her as though her needs AND wants are as important as mine. Well I'm not so good at that yet but it's what I'm moving toward.
The debate about consequences vs. no consequences seems to be a matter of personal preference, and school choice if choice is available. For example, a family that prefers a democratic model might move closer to a democratic school, where no consequences are going to be imposed. Many people that choose public school know that there are consquences imposed there, and the trade off might be made if that is the best option for the family. We all are learning how to choose what's best for our child and how to advocate for our child in that environment. I think most members here would not send their child to "the state" without questioning the validity of this option.
I do think the history of public schooling and the origins of creating "workers" is an interesting one to think about. Let's just keep the focus of the discussion helpful, not critical.