DD's first 'consequence' lesson at school today.... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 44 Old 02-05-2004, 01:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Not sure how I feel about this. DD goes swimming with her class every week. Today, I asked her how it went, and she told me she didn't go swimming. I asked her why not...she said, because I was playing during clean up time. She didn't sulk about it. I didn't ask anymore right away, I was surprised.
Later, I asked her what she did while the others were swimming, she said she colored. Then she joined the kids at the gym...(they go to the gym after swimming).
She seems totally fine about this...and said, "Next time, I'm going to help clean up."

How would you feel about this? I'm mostly fine...just feels weird having someone else impose consequences on my child....

Guess that comes with school though.....

TIA,

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#2 of 44 Old 02-05-2004, 01:25 AM
 
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mamasoleil,

I'm glad your dd doesn't seem to be bothered by it, as that is what matters most. . My dd is not school aged yet. But I know what you mean and that is why I really don't want to send her to school. Maybe whatever your dd was doing was more important at the moment, play is work for kids that age. I don't agree with punishing children. That ONLY teaches them to DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD, or we will do something unrelated to make you feel bad. CLeaning up messes, responsability, helping others are important, but imho I'd rather dd learn to do those things out of internal motivation and her own will, not because shes being threatened.
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#3 of 44 Old 02-05-2004, 05:58 PM
 
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I don't agree with making children clean in school. Schools have janitors. Schools don't pay kids for cleaning. That could also interfere with what the parents are trying to teach at home - for example, I toured one preschool that I rejected because, among other things, they taught "manners." I don't want my toddler to learn manners, I want her to be a normal child! Manners can come later, and I think they should be taught at home.

Same goes for clean-up. I don't plan on enforcing that rule at home - adults do the work in our home, not children - so I don't want her to have to clean at school.

If the consequences enforced at school were the same as the ones I would do at home, then I would have no problem with it. But I think it's the wrong way to go. Instead of punishing a kid because they won't do something, why not make them want to do it? Anything can be turned into a game if the adult in charge is willing to be creative instead of just saying "Do it now."
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#4 of 44 Old 02-05-2004, 06:26 PM
 
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Greaseball, I doubt they are talking about scrubbing toilets. They are talking about putting away whatever it was they were playing with. It's all part of being responsible for your stuff, and being considerate of others. I expect my kids to clean up after themselves at home too, but I don't expect them to scrub the floors.

And manners are important everywhere, and can also be part of being a normal child.
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#5 of 44 Old 02-05-2004, 06:55 PM
 
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I'm dealing with this as well. My ds was not doing his work and was out of his seat. (yeah, he was supposed to be coloring another silly sheet--oh well) He did not get to do center time. I'm okay with this. It's reality. (That said, I'm thinking about hs) I'm a pisces so I do try to take those rose colored glasses off sometimes...

I don't like it though when the teacher mentions attention problems. Like someone said, you can make anything fun and a game. When they do cool stuff he pays attention. He already knows bs work when he sees it.

We use things like this to talk about responsibilty and conformity with him. Yes, he needs to help clean up. If he knows the assignment is busy work we still expect him to make the effort, but explain to him why they are doing busy work. and what natural and imposed consequences happen if he does not participate.

I think taking away the swimming was a bit harsh though...it's a once a week activity for crying out loud! Was this a first time offense or a repeat offense?
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#6 of 44 Old 02-05-2004, 10:38 PM
 
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What Irishmommy said.

The lesson seemed to have sunk in that children need to clean up after themselves. I'd be thrilled if it were my kid. I don't think it was harsh at all.
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#7 of 44 Old 02-05-2004, 11:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
it's a once a week activity for crying out loud! Was this a first time offense or a repeat offense?
I'm not sure if it was a first time offence or not. I'm meeting with the teacher tomorrow....
I"m not going to criticise, I just want to know if she's running into 'problems' with dd at school on a regular basis.

I do want her to clean up after HERSELF at home, but I don't take away privilidges...if one of her toys gets stepped on because it was left on the floor...which has happened NUMEROUS times : , then I think she learns to value her things more..and she has, with the 'odd' slip...
thx for your imput.
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#8 of 44 Old 02-06-2004, 12:19 AM
 
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One of the most amazing things I've ever seen (over and over) is the responsbility that 3-5 year olds take in Head Start classrooms at mealtime. Their parents are usually astounded because by arouond Dec. they are saying please and thank you, clearing their plate, washing the tables, sweeping, and looking darn proud. Maybe it doesn't work for everyone, but kids in these classrooms seem to like being part of the helping keep the environment nice. They don't fight it (and these are feisty kids!!) they actually like having good manners and helping. The "jobs" part of Head Start is one of the things the kids like the best. So, I would agree that it is a reasonable expectation to help clean up.

 
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#9 of 44 Old 02-06-2004, 12:40 AM
 
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So glad I ran into you


Anyways,when I first read yoru post I was actually really upset.So,I took a sec to try to figure out why???????


Its because I thought ,,,,what does her NOT going swimming have to do with her not picking up after herself?
To me its kinda a smallie,deserving a smallie concequence,not something as big as not swimming.It just doesnt seem to "fit the crime"KWIM?

Good luck.

Charmaine
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#10 of 44 Old 02-06-2004, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hey Char!!!

That's my 'beef' so to speak as well. I don't think it fits the crime either. I'll talk to her tomorrow!!!!

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#11 of 44 Old 02-06-2004, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So, I just came back from dd's school! And her teacher HAD NO idea that this had happened!!! Her teacher does not go to the pool, the teacher's AID does, with the gym teacher. And it seems that the teacher's aid took it upon herself to instill this punishment.
The teacher agreed with me that this is NOT a logical consequence. And said the ONLY time a child should not be allowed to swim is IF THEY'RE ACTING UNSAFELY IN THE POOL AFTER BEING WARNED....
She told me, with your daughter, I make clean up time a game, and she responds really well to that!!!
Anyway, the principal apologized, and they will be meeting with the teacher's aid on Monday, who was on a sick day today!!!

I'm so relieved, I really needed to hear her teacher tell me she agree with me, and that that was NOT a logical consequence!!!!

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#12 of 44 Old 02-06-2004, 06:28 PM
 
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Glad that worked out.
Have you talked to Soleil?
Perhaps she deserves an apology from the aid?
If it were me I would want one KWIM?But hey,Im only 28
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#13 of 44 Old 02-06-2004, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm only 28 too!!!
Yeah, the aid wasn't there, but the principal and the teacher did apologise to Soleil.
And they will be having a meeting with the aid on Monday.
I offered to bring parenting books on Monday for the aid to read.
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#14 of 44 Old 02-07-2004, 04:05 AM
 
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#15 of 44 Old 02-07-2004, 12:29 PM
 
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I am glad it all worked out. I am always amazed when adults take away the "privilege" of being active as a "consequence" for children. I find my kids to be much more co-operative and positive after they are active! They have so much energy! And people wonder why so many children are overweight and underactive? I hear stories like this way too often. Give the kids a good workout and they will think and work better!
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#16 of 44 Old 02-07-2004, 05:38 PM
 
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To the OP: Sounds like it all worked out.

Now, Are you serious? You don't WANT your child to learn manners? They are not supposed to learn to say please and thank you when another person does something kind for them? You decided that this was a reason to not select a school? I am really shocked...I don't get that one AT ALL.
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#17 of 44 Old 02-07-2004, 07:33 PM
 
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That was from me, not the OP.

I don't want dd to learn that just because she's a child, she has to treat adults with a certain amount of respect that they do not have to show to her. I don't think that, at age 2, she should be expected to "ask nicely" for something. As long as she doesn't scream or hit me, that's good enough for me.

I also think manners should be taught in the home and not in school (at least for my family). The reason is that manners taught in school often center around gender roles, though they will claim they don't. I don't want dd to learn that she has to speak differently to boys than she would to girls. Schools also teach that children must defer to adults, while I believe in a more democratic approach. They aren't going to teach different manners to different students.

I want her to learn that she is entitled to respect from adults, and that she should only respect those who respect her first. I haven't found a school that supports that philosophy.

At home, if I want dh to bring me something or cook a special dinner, I don't say "please." I just say "Hey, can I have..." So I don't think dd should be expected to say please either. We say thank you a lot, but that's totally voluntary.

Perhaps when she is a little older we will work on "social graces" but again, at home, not at school.
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#18 of 44 Old 02-08-2004, 10:40 PM
 
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I appreciate you taking the time to explain your stance on this issue. However, I completely disagree with you in almost every way. One point, though, I would say is valid. I would expect boys/men to exhibit the same manners that I would expect girls/women. At the same time I show males the same respect as I show females.

Also, in reference to teaching your daughter to show respect ONLY to those who show her respect first: if this is your philosophy, then no one should show HER any respect, since she will not exhibit it first. A teacher could then treat her disrespectfully, becasue she has not acted respectfully to that teacher first. (that is how your philosophy would work, only in reverse towards your dd.) I feel a better philosphy might be to show all people respect UNTIL they prove that they don't deserve respect.
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#19 of 44 Old 02-08-2004, 10:47 PM
 
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That's understandable, but I've always believed that children deserve to be respected first because of their historically low place in society. I can't change how it is in the world, but at least in my home it doesn't have to be that way.
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#20 of 44 Old 02-08-2004, 11:41 PM
 
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i guess things were worked out with your dd. i have to say though, it speaks greatly of your dd that she was able to admit what she did, accept the consequences (however illogical they were) and not while about it. I am pretty impressed!

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#21 of 44 Old 02-09-2004, 08:26 PM
 
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I'm glad it all worked out for the OP. I didn't think the punishment fit the crime either.

Greaseball, I have to disagree with you here. I don't see anything wrong with please and thank you and it works both ways. At my child's school I routinely hear the teachers thanking the kids for things as well. I haven't actually heard them prompt kids for a "please" or "thank you", but they do model manners. My kids say please and thank you not because we have forced them but because they hear us say it. "hey you, go get me this" would not be acceptable in my house from my child or my husband. I just wonder how your child is going to get along in the real world later on if she is expected people to jump when she snaps her fingers since that's the way it works in your home: I don't mean that as an insult, I honestly don't understand. As for cleaning, I agree with the poster who said she doubts they have the kids scrubbing toilets. We are probably talking about putting away the kids *own* things. Is the teacher really expected to go around and tidy up each child's desk for them? I don't think the kids should be paid to clean up their own things.:
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#22 of 44 Old 02-09-2004, 08:39 PM
 
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This would make a great poll
I do think kids need to learn manners and I think they should be modeled and practiced at home and at school.
Quote:
At home, if I want dh to bring me something or cook a special dinner, I don't say "please." I just say "Hey, can I have..."
I say "please," and so does he. And, so does my 2 y.o. He even says bless you after someone sneezes and he apologizes to the dogs & cats if he bumps into them. For him, this is simply normal behavior.

But, re: OP, although the consequence wasn't directly related to the action, I think it's awesome that your daughter understood. If I don't take responsibility for my actions; ie. clean my area, then I lose a privilege. Glad you guys got it worked out, but to your dd for being so mature
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#23 of 44 Old 02-09-2004, 09:30 PM
 
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We are probably talking about putting away the kids *own* things. Is the teacher really expected to go around and tidy up each child's desk for them? I don't think the kids should be paid to clean up their own things.
Maybe that's what it was...I got the feeling the OP was talking about classroom supplies, which I think should be the job of a janitor. As for a child's desk, I think she can have her space as she wants it. I had the messiest desk in 3rd grade - people were drawing cartoons about it - but could find something in there quicker than the other kids could find things in their clean desks. It was an "organized mess."

If any of you here have a maid, do you still clean up after yourself? I wouldn't.

Maybe someday I will see a need for manners but not at age 2. Perhaps at age 4 or 5 we will start off with small things like please and thank you.

I don't think it's the words that are important, but what you are trying to convey. Often, if dh does something nice for me, I'll say something like "Hey, I really appreciated that! It was so nice of you to do that for me." I think showing sincere appreciation is more important than saying "thank you." I guess I believe in "magic attitudes" and not "magic words."
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#24 of 44 Old 02-09-2004, 10:08 PM
 
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I didn't think we were talking about two year olds since this was a thread about school. My two year old does use please and thank you though, simply because he's copying us. I'm not sure what you are saying about the maid. My mom does have one, but she has to clean before the maid gets there. Most maid services services to not pick up your clothes or wash your dishes or things of that nature. They just clean the surfaces. Anything else would be extra. Regardless, I am not my child's maid, he does not pay me to clean up after him. Nor is the teacher my child's maid, she is paid to teach. Janitors are paid to do certain things around the school, but not *everything*.
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#25 of 44 Old 02-09-2004, 10:20 PM
 
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T Just had to comment, :LOL we have a housekeeper and she keeps me on my toes. Sounds dumb, but I bust out a clean house the evening before her cleaning day. I'd rather have her get the stuff I hate; ie. the fridge, the oven...ewwww
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#26 of 44 Old 02-09-2004, 10:33 PM
 
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Greaseball, I wish we could have a playdate.


Maggie05
I think the issue is much deeper than "Please and thank you."
It's a societal issue where adults in general dont treat children with respect, especially in schools. They have POWER OVER children.
Adults, including teachers, are fallible, but they assume to know more and always to be right without even listening to a child.

And like I said before, forced consequences are just a scare tactic.


I don't want dd to learn to obey orders with out thinking things through. I want her to choose her direction in life, I don't want her doing busy work. I want her to have power in her own life. and her own education.



I think it's important that parents re-examin the values we were taught. We might change some of our core beliefs after deeper exporation about where they came from.

It would be interesting to have a discussion about what a public education is meant to do. in terms of preserving the status quo, training an obediant work force and raising consumers.

Children ONLY learn respect by being RESPECTED. I agree that Adults have the responsibility to first treat children respectfully, and continue to be respectful even if a child is disrespectful because the child is the one learning and she learns by example

If I child is disrespectful to me I tell them in a kind and gental way how it makes me feal and I show them how I want them to talk to me. It works pretty well.
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#27 of 44 Old 02-09-2004, 11:43 PM
 
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"And like I said before, forced consequences are just a scare tactic."


So are you an anarchist?
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#28 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 12:05 AM
 
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NO I'm not an anarchist, closer to a socialist



but There is a distinction between natural consequence and 'because you didn't do what I wanted you do do, I'm going to cause you discomfort in some way' to "teach you a lesson"


The lesson the child get's isn't usually the lesson the adult is trying to teach. What does swimming have to do with cleaning. It's not teaching resposibility, it might be teaching avoidance of punishment, fear of adults or obedience, I'm not very fond of blind obedience. I don't force my 3.5 year old to OBEY me. I treat her as though her needs AND wants are as important as mine. Well I'm not so good at that yet but it's what I'm moving toward.
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#29 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 12:11 AM
 
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Alegria I think if the topic branches out into challenging members why they send their child to public school to be educated, it could be interpreted (on this particular forum) as confrontational. The Learning at School forum is not for debating public school vs. homeschooling. Members who visit here are either learning about the option of public/alternative school, figuring out how to navigate the ins and outs of public/alternative schools, or to get help with the inevitable difficulties in any schooling environment.

The debate about consequences vs. no consequences seems to be a matter of personal preference, and school choice if choice is available. For example, a family that prefers a democratic model might move closer to a democratic school, where no consequences are going to be imposed. Many people that choose public school know that there are consquences imposed there, and the trade off might be made if that is the best option for the family. We all are learning how to choose what's best for our child and how to advocate for our child in that environment. I think most members here would not send their child to "the state" without questioning the validity of this option.

I do think the history of public schooling and the origins of creating "workers" is an interesting one to think about. Let's just keep the focus of the discussion helpful, not critical.

 
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#30 of 44 Old 02-10-2004, 02:54 AM
 
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I edited the post, It isn't my intent to challenge members here or to be confrontational. To provoke thought and invite discussion yes, but I was not directing critisism to any parent here. I apologize if anyone felt that I was.
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