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#61 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 04:44 AM
 
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Just on a side note I am amazed at how many people on this thread have used the argument that early rising must be done "for success." I call BS. There are lots of sucessful people out there who don't have to get up at seven.

The "on time" crowd is out in force again.
"On time" crowd? Okay, if you're not going to require your child to be on time for school every day in 1st grade, in what grade are you going to choose to enforce the rules of the schoo? Honest question here - at what age is it appropriate to make them go to school on time?

DD doesn't like to get up, she doesn't like to go to bed. She's in bed by about 8:30 every night, up at 7:15am and out the door at 8am to get to school by 8:15am. We're gentle with her in the morning, help her get dressed if she needs it, etc. If she comments on being tired, I just gently remind her that's why she needs to go to sleep when we put her to bed at night. She's learning slowly but surely. (She's in kindy).

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#62 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 10:11 AM
 
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that's why he kinda talked about a not well known side door getting in.

i guess i will continue breaking rules. and sneak in thru the side gate.
This sounds like a worrisome security gap. There are very good reasons for the rule of coming in through one point of entry and passing by the office. Personally, I'd be concerned about a teacher that is telling parents about an alternative entry where they can "sneak in"
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#63 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 11:41 AM
 
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This sounds like a worrisome security gap. There are very good reasons for the rule of coming in through one point of entry and passing by the office. Personally, I'd be concerned about a teacher that is telling parents about an alternative entry where they can "sneak in"
That's exactly what I was going to post! There is an entrance to the school where someone can gain unauthorized access without the main office knowing? And a teacher not only knows about it but is advocating its use?

Hoo boy.

Also, what happens next year if she does not get assigned to a teacher who is fine with her being late and sneaking in? Wouldn't it be advantageous to come to a resolution now?

I hate waking DD up for school. She generally gets herself up, but every once and a while I have to do it. I was always of the "let sleeping babies lie" train of thought...but she's not a baby anymore. By placing her into public school, we chose to have her be part of that society. She fills a role there and does it to the best of her abilities. We help her do that.

I equate it to my using an alarm clock for myself. No, if I had the opportunity to sleep as long as I could, chances are I would not be getting up at 6:15. But I do what needs to be done.

I wish you luck in finding a solution. And it's cute that she likes a boy in her math class.
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#64 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 12:29 PM
 
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I don't see how sneaking in is going to help you avoid truancy notices. Every attendance system I am familiar with attendance is collected from all the classrooms at about 15 mins after the first bell. If you aren't there you are marked absent. If she doesn't go through the office how is she supposed to be marked presesnt?
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#65 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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teacher takes roll and turns it into office at 9 am. 50 mins after school starts. he is willing to make an exception for dd.

well that door is only known by a few people. it is not blatantly obvious. i have passed by it for over a year and half now and never noticed it wasnt locked. the school has not had any incident in all its 50 or so years of existance so i am not worried about it. if a parent hadnt told me i wouldnt have known and i wouldnt have understood what the teacher was saying. so dd can walk in and no one would suspect anything. but if i tried walking in without going thru the school office, then yes i would be spotted easily. there are kids walking around in school often enough (esp. at that time to turn attendance in) that dd wont stand out.

the reason why i am so insistent on NOT waking dd is because i think its a developmental stage. she has never been like this before. suddenly i notice how much rested and calm she is after those rare days of deep sleep. you know there is that early morning deep sleep that you dont have a problem waking them from, but this is a more early night kinda sleep. i think she is going to get out of this one day. whenever it is. and that's why i want to insist on it.

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#66 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 03:02 PM
 
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Put her to bed 30 mins earlier.
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#67 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 03:19 PM
 
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I still question the judgment of the teacher telling you to sneak her in an unmarked door. I wonder what the administration would do if they found out? It seems likely that they might eventually; kids talk. You could be putting his job in jeopardy.
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#68 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 04:30 PM
 
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I'm another one a bit shocked by an unlocked door. Our school is secure in that everyone HAS to walk through the office and get an ID badge before venturing to any of the classrooms. I see no way to sneak in half an hour late, unless a teacher was like propping their outside door open, or a hallway door. Either are unsafe, IMO, and would put all the kids at risk.

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#69 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 04:41 PM
 
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"On time" crowd? Okay, if you're not going to require your child to be on time for school every day in 1st grade, in what grade are you going to choose to enforce the rules of the schoo? Honest question here - at what age is it appropriate to make them go to school on time?
Not the OP, but I just feel the need to chime in response to this (and others in the "on time" crowd).

IMO, not being on time is a problem only if you are messing up someone else's ability to do their job and/or learn, and if you are unwilling to suffer the consequences of missing that learning yourself (e.g., by getting a lower grade). As long as a kid isn't messing anyone else up and they are willing to miss out on whatever learning was done while they were gone (without bugging the teacher for extra help later) then there simply is no problem. If I recall correctly, the OP's DD is very bright and probably can catch up on the missed academic material w/o a problem so the missed learning thing is not an issue. For some kids it would be, though.

IME being on time is something one can learn or unlearn at any time very quickly. One need not do it every day at age 7 to learn it... there are lots of habits I have now that I didn't learn at age 7, and many habits that I learned at age 7 are out the window now. Human beings are adaptive like that

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#70 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 04:49 PM
 
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deleted b/c i misread your post.
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#71 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 04:52 PM
 
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"On time" crowd? Okay, if you're not going to require your child to be on time for school every day in 1st grade, in what grade are you going to choose to enforce the rules of the schoo? Honest question here - at what age is it appropriate to make them go to school on time?

DD doesn't like to get up, she doesn't like to go to bed. She's in bed by about 8:30 every night, up at 7:15am and out the door at 8am to get to school by 8:15am. We're gentle with her in the morning, help her get dressed if she needs it, etc. If she comments on being tired, I just gently remind her that's why she needs to go to sleep when we put her to bed at night. She's learning slowly but surely. (She's in kindy).

Jenn
i could've written your post word for word.
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#72 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 04:53 PM
 
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I agree that the OP's daughter doesn't seem like she is falling behind at all by being late to school. And in that sense, missing some classes or being late is probably okay.

However, this is a public school where the teacher is willing to falsify attendance records and allow unauthorized access to the facility as a special favor to one particular family. Exceptions would be if there was an IEP in place or the principal/school board granted permission.

If I were another parent and I found out that this was happening...

At best it's preferential, at worst it's illegal.
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#73 of 100 Old 01-27-2010, 05:13 PM
 
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I'm another one a bit shocked by an unlocked door. Our school is secure in that everyone HAS to walk through the office and get an ID badge before venturing to any of the classrooms. I see no way to sneak in half an hour late, unless a teacher was like propping their outside door open, or a hallway door. Either are unsafe, IMO, and would put all the kids at risk.
I agree. I would definitely NOT be okay with an unlocked door at my girls' school - so not okay.
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#74 of 100 Old 01-28-2010, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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However, this is a public school where the teacher is willing to falsify attendance records and allow unauthorized access to the facility as a special favor to one particular family. Exceptions would be if there was an IEP in place or the principal/school board granted permission.
the teacher is NOT falsifying records. he has to send a report in within 50 mins of school starting which students are there. so he was giving us the 50 mins leeway.

and yup i refuse to do the IEP and have dd's anxiety on permanent record. i could use her anxiety as an excuse but i dont want to.

about the gate. yes it is 'illegal'. however i have noticed some schools in our area including dd's old school have a little known 'open' gate. in fact in the old school you could go into the school totally avoiding the office from the front gate itself. so essentially you wouldnt be 'caught' unless someone saw you. yet that school has never ever faced any issues, even with custody issues.

i also have noticed it is the middle school (not aware of the high schools) they are v. v. persistent about locked gates.

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#75 of 100 Old 01-28-2010, 09:52 AM
 
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I'm sorry, I don't mean to imply that the teacher is doing something untoward if he isn't...I must not be understanding correctly.

I thought he took attendance at the beginning of the day and sent the report to the office 50 mins later. I didn't know that there was an hour of leeway for the kids to get into class.
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#76 of 100 Old 01-28-2010, 10:24 AM
 
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I'm sorry, I don't mean to imply that the teacher is doing something untoward if he isn't...I must not be understanding correctly..
He is. The office records late entry, not the teacher. So, he informed the parent of an unsecured door where her dc could "sneak in" and bypass the office/being marked late if she gets there before the final attendance is due (50 min later). He does not have the authority to give that 50 minute leeway, and it is illegal.
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#77 of 100 Old 01-28-2010, 10:58 AM
 
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Gotcha. So policy mandates that anyone coming in late must stop at the front office to report in and that is being circumvented by the use of the unlocked door in this situation. I thought that's what I was reading.

Still a security issue even if nothing has happened in the past. As a parent, I would very very concerned to learn that there is an unlocked door that can be accessed without supervision. All it takes is once.

Also as a parent, I would be pretty ticked to learn that a teacher was looking the other way in regard to a student's attendance (without falling under the umbrella of formal permission) when my child is being held to the policies and procedures set forth by the district.

I mean, if it weren't "wrong", there would be no need to "sneak in", right?
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#78 of 100 Old 01-28-2010, 12:48 PM
 
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Still a security issue even if nothing has happened in the past. As a parent, I would very very concerned to learn that there is an unlocked door that can be accessed without supervision. All it takes is once.
Exactly. My children's safety definitely trumps another child's right to sneak into the building late without the office finding out.
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#79 of 100 Old 01-28-2010, 03:03 PM
 
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Exactly. My children's safety definitely trumps another child's right to sneak into the building late without the office finding out.
Absolutely.

Completely irresponsible of you to be aware of such a security risk and not only ignore it but use it to your advantage.

I don't understand why you don't HS if you're unwilling to model for your child the responsible way to follow through with a commitment.

DS (6.06), DD (10.08), DD (05.11).

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#80 of 100 Old 01-28-2010, 03:24 PM
 
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Or at least file an IEP that would allow you to have an exception for excessive tardies.
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#81 of 100 Old 01-28-2010, 09:42 PM
 
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As long as a kid isn't messing anyone else up and they are willing to miss out on whatever learning was done while they were gone (without bugging the teacher for extra help later) then there simply is no problem.
coming into class late disrupts the entire class, so it is messing other people up including the teacher. There may be kids where someone coming in late can throw off their entire day due to their own issues.
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#82 of 100 Old 01-30-2010, 12:57 AM
 
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3 times late by half an hour in 5 months is not reason to homeschool.
Maybe not. But an overarching attitude that the rules of school do not need to be followed by you because they are inconvenient is.

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coming into class late disrupts the entire class, so it is messing other people up including the teacher. There may be kids where someone coming in late can throw off their entire day due to their own issues.
YES. When I am teaching, if a student enters the room late, it is ALWAYS a disruption, no matter how politely the student tries to ease into the class in session. The whole flow of the lesson is interrupted. It is lovely that your daughter has such an accommodating teacher, but he is not doing anyone any favors. If I was quietly allowing one of my students to break a rule (or "make an exception"--same difference) I could get in big trouble with my administration and other parents. And I teach in a really small, close-knit, flexible school.

The issue with the unlocked side door concerns me too. A school should have one access point when children are in class. The responsible thing to do would be to notify the office that there is a door not getting locked.

If you are going to participate in institutional education, you need to participate appropriately, just like everyone else, even with all the flaws of the system. I know it sucks. I don't like it either sometimes, but there are usually good reasons behind rules that don't seem to make sense on the surface.
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#83 of 100 Old 01-30-2010, 03:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Completely irresponsible of you to be aware of such a security risk and not only ignore it but use it to your advantage.

I don't understand why you don't HS if you're unwilling to model for your child the responsible way to follow through with a commitment.
for 3 times in 5 months? for a 7 year old. modelling responsibility? in a sense i am modelling responsibility allowing her to sleep an extra half to one hour because i am paying attention to the needs of her body. if she was older then it would be a whole different story. not at 7.

yes true that i am 'using' the 'security risk' to my advantage. i will admit that. however the 'security risk' is around most of the elementary schools out here - so i dont feel guilty about it. in other words i dont see it as a security risk.

mind you though this situation hasnt risen yet. we havent had the situation yet. however if it does i probably will use it.

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#84 of 100 Old 01-30-2010, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If I was quietly allowing one of my students to break a rule (or "make an exception"--same difference) I could get in big trouble with my administration and other parents. And I teach in a really small, close-knit, flexible school.
seriously? wow!!! i know in first grade dd's teacher made exceptions to another boy on a different matter. and i know dd's present teacher makes exceptions to other kids. he picked all the 'troublemakers' to be in his class. yeah he could possibly get into trouble, but i guess it is a chance he takes.

dd was in a different school for K. if her teacher had not made exceptions for some of the students some kids would probably not have been allowed to continue to attend the school. but there were family issues - some horrific ones. some they worked on with the knowledge of the school. some without. technically she was also breaking the rules i guess.

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#85 of 100 Old 01-30-2010, 11:13 AM
 
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seriously? wow!!! i know in first grade dd's teacher made exceptions to another boy on a different matter. and i know dd's present teacher makes exceptions to other kids. he picked all the 'troublemakers' to be in his class. yeah he could possibly get into trouble, but i guess it is a chance he takes.

dd was in a different school for K. if her teacher had not made exceptions for some of the students some kids would probably not have been allowed to continue to attend the school. but there were family issues - some horrific ones. some they worked on with the knowledge of the school. some without. technically she was also breaking the rules i guess.
Were the other exceptions illegal?

Not all exceptions are equally egregious. Suggesting a student use an unsecured door to sneak in is fairly shocking, illegal, and increases risks for every student in the school. Yes, it is reasonable to believe he could get in a lot of trouble for that.
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#86 of 100 Old 01-30-2010, 03:32 PM
 
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for 3 times in 5 months? for a 7 year old. modelling responsibility? in a sense i am modelling responsibility allowing her to sleep an extra half to one hour because i am paying attention to the needs of her body. if she was older then it would be a whole different story. not at 7.

yes true that i am 'using' the 'security risk' to my advantage. i will admit that. however the 'security risk' is around most of the elementary schools out here - so i dont feel guilty about it. in other words i dont see it as a security risk.

mind you though this situation hasnt risen yet. we havent had the situation yet. however if it does i probably will use it.
So you are modeling responsibility by paying attention to the needs of her body but if she wants to be woken because she likes the boy she sits next to in math you ignore the needs of her body. I guess for me I would not tell my child that being on time for school is not important but being able to sit next to a boy you like is.
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#87 of 100 Old 01-30-2010, 04:08 PM
 
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This is a bit OT, but all doors at our (small hippie private) school are REQUIRED BY LAW to be unlocked during the day if kids are inside. It's a fire hazard otherwise. If a school feels the need to secure the facility they should probably have one of those bars that sounds an alarm when it's opened. Maybe this door doesn't have that or maybe it's not supposed to be able to be opened from the outside, but can be opened from the inside. Personally, the unlocked door wouldn't worry me and I imagine the school knows it and it's unlocked for fire safety and for whatever reason is unable to locked from outside/unlocked from inside.

I don't think 3 tardies over half an hour in 5 months is excessive. I'm sure that happens at our school. I can't do it with my kids because they would want to every day, but I'm sure it happens with other kids.

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#88 of 100 Old 01-30-2010, 08:27 PM
 
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This is a bit OT, but all doors at our (small hippie private) school are REQUIRED BY LAW to be unlocked during the day if kids are inside. It's a fire hazard otherwise. If a school feels the need to secure the facility they should probably have one of those bars that sounds an alarm when it's opened. Maybe this door doesn't have that or maybe it's not supposed to be able to be opened from the outside, but can be opened from the inside. Personally, the unlocked door wouldn't worry me and I imagine the school knows it and it's unlocked for fire safety and for whatever reason is unable to locked from outside/unlocked from inside.
There are doors that are locked from the outside but can be opened easily from the inside. That's the kind in the schools my dc have attended. I wouldn't be happy if every door in the school remained unlocked all day.

It's been standard in various school boards in different cities to have all doors secured once school starts. In some schools, even the front door is locked, and if a visitor arrives, they must identify themselves on an intercom, and a closed circuit camera. I've always thought it was over the top. I think locking all doors except the main door by the school office makes sense though, since I am aware of stranger assaults happening in schools.
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#89 of 100 Old 01-30-2010, 08:37 PM
 
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Yeah, our school's doors are locked from the outside, but can be opened from the inside. Only the front door is unlocked during school hours and you physically have to step into the office before getting into the hallways. My kids have gone to half a dozen schools over the years and this is the first one set up like this. There would be absolutely no way to sneak in late unless you had help from the inside.

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#90 of 100 Old 01-30-2010, 08:46 PM
 
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Our school is so small that no one could walk in w/o an adult seeing. Each door leads either directly into a classroom or office except the front door which goes into a hallway. I am totally fine with it the way it is.

It may be that the doors at the OP's school are similar or maybe that door just doesn't have the "fire exit" bar that allows it to be opened from the inside in the event of an emergency and therefore needs to be unlocked for fire safety. Check out this list of state by state Fire Safety regulations for schools. Several states have regulations mandating that doors must be unlocked – Alabama, Arkansas, Minnesota, Nebraska, etc. All I'm saying is it could be unlocked on purpose and I'm not sure it's something to be overly hard on the OP about.

My elementary school where I went lo these almost 40 years ago is still up and operating. Unless they've drastically changed the architecture (and it doesn't look changed when I drive by) most classrooms have a door directly to the outside. There is also a central hall, with big double doors, but when I was a kid we only used that for a few classrooms that weren't accessible another way.

I'm pretty sure our schools in the town I'm in now are not locked unless there's a "lockdown" because of an escaped criminal or other emergency.

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