keeping the military out of our elementary schools - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 117 Old 04-24-2010, 09:43 PM
 
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Thread returned. Please remember to keep the discussion civil and respectful and focused upon the OP.

 
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#92 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 07:35 AM
 
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I do not approve it and would keep my kids home for that day. What is going on with the military and the *wars* they have created is not something I want my children to grow up thinking is a good thing.

If others support it that is their choice,but I never agreed with entering countries and CREATING conflict.It is shameful. If more schools agree to do these shows it will become the norm in all states.
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#93 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 09:59 AM
 
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I have a suggestion to keep conflict down: how about if the focus in on whether the military should be in schools, NOT whether the military is a good thing or not (since the latter topic would not be included in Learning at School anyway).

 
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#94 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have a suggestion to keep conflict down: how about if the focus in on whether the military should be in schools, NOT whether the military is a good thing or not (since the latter topic would not be included in Learning at School anyway).
Thanks lauren. When I posted originally, I was wary of offending people but I underestimated the degree of emotion that some posters might feel about this. My intent was never to upset anyone. I do have my own thoughts about the military and about peace activism; apparently my views are dissimilar to views that other posters hold dear. My contention is that whether or not one wholeheartedly supports the armed services (and what that means is so open-ended and beyond the what I hoped to focus on here), I would hope that we could all agree that our kids deserve an education as free from certain influences as possible. I'll admit that I have been surprised by how that basic premise is apparently very debatable.
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#95 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 11:18 AM
 
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I would hope that we could all agree that our kids deserve an education as free from certain influences as possible.
When you choose to send your children to public school you accept that the gov't gets to indoctrinate them to whatever views it sees fit. That's just the way it goes. They're teaching graphic sex ed in elementary schools, basic masturbation in high school, evolution as fact and not theory (those of us that believe in Creation Science have an issue with that one), and a slew of other things. So, I think that a for fun assembly with the military is low on the list of problems facing today's youth. Yes, part of that view is that I have zero problems with the military. I was shocked at how many parents wanted to keep the military out of things like career day too.
There are worse careers, in my opinion, than working behind a desk (like my husband does) for the US military. Not all military personnel are over seas with guns.
In fact, there is a group in the Air Force called Tops in Blues that their JOB for at least a year is traveling the world as a performance troop. It's entirely possible that's the kind of group that came to your child's school. They aren't recruiters, they're basically a musical theatre group.

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#96 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 11:52 AM
 
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I would hope that we could all agree that our kids deserve an education as free from certain influences as possible. I'll admit that I have been surprised by how that basic premise is apparently very debatable.
Remember the Santa in school debate we had back in December? It would seem we can't even agree on what falls under separation of church and state.

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#97 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 05:14 PM
 
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My contention is that whether or not one wholeheartedly supports the armed services (and what that means is so open-ended and beyond the what I hoped to focus on here), I would hope that we could all agree that our kids deserve an education as free from certain influences as possible. I'll admit that I have been surprised by how that basic premise is apparently very debatable.
Why would you be surprised that not everyone thinks that we should treat the military as something to shelter our children from? The military isn't an illegal or immoral career choice that we have to shelter children from in school. It is a perfectly legitimate and responsible career choice that many wonderful people choose to pursue. If the schools were to invite drug dealers in to sing then that would be obviously wrong. Inviting people holding legal and respectable careers in isn't. I want our schools to shelter children from bad and illegal influences, not from legal and respectful ones. The purpose of public education is to broaden a child's knowledge, if they were to limit all influences that any small sector has a problem with then they would have hardly any material to work with.
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#98 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 05:45 PM
 
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Inviting people holding legal and respectable careers in isn't.
What about a tobacco farmer? There are many people in this country who make their livings growing tobacco. Some even grow organic tobacco. Many of the founding fathers of this country grow tobacco. There are people who use small amounts of tobacco very occasionally for ceremonial only. Tobacco farming is perfectly legal and considered respectable by many.

However, in general we avoid exposing young children to tobacco. We know that tobacco is frequently abused and is very dangerous.

How about a group of moms who all work at the local strip club. These are entertainers. They are working hard to provide for their families. This again is perfectly legal.

Legal and respectable does not equate to appropriate for very young children. There is a place in our world for all kinds of professions that are basically part of a grown up world. There are reasons one must be 17 yo in order to join the military. What ever one generally thinks of the military, I think we can all agree that it is a serious decision that should not be taken lightly. Joining the military isn't like getting a job at the mall.

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#99 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 06:09 PM
 
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They're teaching graphic sex ed in elementary schools, basic masturbation in high school
They are teaching kids to masturbate in the Texas public schools?

I'm surprised I haven't heard about that, what with how much there's been in the news lately about the influence of a small group of Christian fundamentalists on the curriculum in that state. Learn something new every day!
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#100 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 06:09 PM
 
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They're teaching graphic sex ed in elementary schools, basic masturbation in high school,
not in our school district.

I've seen the sex ed materials and was shocked at how little information was presented. Kids who don't have parents who speak frankly with them will be left learning about sex the old fashioned way, from their friends!

Our school communicates with parents about topics they believe may be sensitive and parents can opt out. We even had parents opt out of having their kids listen to Obama's speech last year (which I thought was silly of the parents, but good for the school for realizing that some parents would have strong views.)

I don't believe that I've turned my kids over for indoctrination, and our school staff has never acted like that.

Just curious if you send your kids to school and if you are talking from personal experience.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#101 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 06:48 PM
 
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In fact, there is a group in the Air Force called Tops in Blues that their JOB for at least a year is traveling the world as a performance troop.
So THAT'S where our tax dollars are going! I wondered about those $100 toilet seats!

I come from a military family/civil servant family, and I don't think it has a place in school. They glorify war, they lure kids in with lies (yes, it does happen... ask my 21 yo nephew who is a Marine about to be deployed), they hide facts (yes, it does happen, ask my career Navy father who now has lungs made of swiss cheese), and they make it all something for kids to aspire to. I'm sorry, but other careers and other representatives of careers do not mislead to recruit the way the military does. In schools, children are SO incredibly vulnerable. They listen to adults and hang on their every word, especially those in uniform. The armed forces should at least wait until high school. At least at that age kids can reason a little bit better.
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#102 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 08:33 PM
 
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Just curious if you send your kids to school and if you are talking from personal experience.
Personal experience. I'm 23 so not too far out of high school and some college. My husband is 24 and we both have younger siblings. Most of what I was subjected to was very one-sided. My high school science classes refused to teach evolution (we were told, "It's chapter X if you want to read it") and sex ed was totally skipped over until Biology. However, politically most of what I got was leftist...My high school was fairly tame. My DH, however, went to a Houston area high school and wasn't as lucky.

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#103 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 08:42 PM
 
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They're teaching graphic sex ed in elementary schools, basic masturbation in high school, evolution as fact and not theory (those of us that believe in Creation Science have an issue with that one), and a slew of other things. group.
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My high school science classes refused to teach evolution (we were told, "It's chapter X if you want to read it") and sex ed was totally skipped over until Biology..
I cannot make sense of your two posts.

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#104 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 08:57 PM
 
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I cannot make sense of your two posts.
The first isn't based on MY high school. However, I've seen WAYY too many news articles and whatnot that discuss that very thing (I'll PM you so we don't hijack)

Not only that, but things have changed a lot even in the few years that I've been out of school. I was lucky to have Conservative Christian teachers in my school.

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#105 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 09:27 PM
 
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I posted on this thread while it was in the activism forum, but was unaware of the policy that stated you cant debate in that forum.... so here are my posts... I figured I'd repost these here!

"I'm a military wife as well.... and my heart crumbled just a little.

All I have to ask the OP is this....


would you be just as upset if one of those safari guys came and showed exotic animals?

What about a police officer with his dog?

A Doctor with his stethoscope?

A Dentist with some toothbrushes and floss?

What about a clown and his juggling act?

What about the local high school marching band?

After all, all of those would be "indoctrinating" your child as well with how awesome a police officer/doctor/dentist/clowns' lives are.

Just because a military does a job that isn't always pretty, doesn't mean that their isn't a necessary and honorable side to it as well. "

After this, someone (I wont post their name in case they don't want it here) posted with this reply:

My problem with this comparison is that in the above examples, the professional would be showing the children what his or her ACTUAL job entails. A dentist works with teeth. Primarily. That's the thing he or she is paid to do. Safari people work with exotic animals all day. As their job. Clowns are hired to juggle.

When my kids see presentations by professionals who are advertising their career choice, I expect those careers to be truthfully represented. Is a soldier's PRIMARY job to play cartoon music?

If my kid thinks about things he or she is interested in, and decides her or she might want to pursue a career in playing music, I don't think the military should be the first thing on his or her mind as a career in which the people are payed to play music.

I'm all in favor of people discussing career choices with my kids, but I'm not a fan of bait-and-switch games, in which a profession is presented as being all about something, when in reality it's all about something else entirely.


To which I replied with this:

"Does the police officer arrest a crack addict during his presentation? Does he get shot at by some criminal?

Does the dentist perform a root canal in his presentation? How about a tooth pulling?

Does the doctor have a patient die on an ER table during his presentation? Does he give them a vaccine during the presentation which has all sorts of toxic ingredients in it?

Does the safari guy get bitten by a snake, eaten by a lion, or stung through the heart by a stingray in his presentation?

The army has musicians which consequently, all they do is play music. There are plenty of different jobs in the military.... they all are not "cold blooded killers" like some people make them out to be. Each soldier has a different job. The "soldiers" your child saw were indeed musicians as classified by their job description for the Army.

Also, FWIW.... let's say you have a child who is musically gifted. I am certain, if they really want to pursue a career in music, the Army will not even cross their mind. Perhaps a school like Julliard would be at the top of their list.

The point is that nearly every human endeavor has a darker, negative, or less glamorous side. Any group doing a presentation shows the best of what it is. Common sense.

Not to mention it sounds to me like any other random group of musicians showing their musical talent for entertainment purposes. This time is was a group from the ROTC. Why read some ominous meaning into something where there is none?"

Kourtney, happily married to my soldier and raising ds 7/08 .... dd 7/10..... and ds 11/11

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#106 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 09:43 PM
 
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MommaKitten21: Well said. Thank you.

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#107 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 10:21 PM
 
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A Dentist with some toothbrushes and floss?
Actually, I'm a bit annoyed that DS's school didn't give me a heads up that a dentist was coming to his school and would hand out standard toothpaste with SLS, saccharine and fluoride. At least there was an upside, DS's brushing technique is better than it had been.

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#108 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 10:38 PM
 
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I have been going back and reading the posts on this thread... in response to all the people saying that the military targets lower income high school kids... well, I am going to have to challenge that one.

Sure, I am certain kids from lower to middle class families probably enlist more than upper class... why? I personally don't feel it's because the military manipulates them and praises what a glorious career the military can be, but because of the benefits.

What other job pays for your housing each month?

What other job pays for your food each month?

What other job pays 100% of college while you are in, and gives you the GI Bill every month for 10 years when they are out (and now thanks to the post 9-11 GI Bill) even longer, and their spouse can use it in their place?

What other job can you count on not being laid off from in a tough economy?

What other job can help you better yourself, and in return, because of all the benefits, go back and help your family out?

What people fail to see is that for some people, the military is the only way they will ever attend college. So maybe, just maybe, some soldiers are in fact, anti-war ... but because this is the only shot they have at a better life... they choose it over continuing to live a life that is going no where. Not every child is fortunate to have mommy and daddy's money to live off of and pay for college.

Kourtney, happily married to my soldier and raising ds 7/08 .... dd 7/10..... and ds 11/11

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#109 of 117 Old 04-25-2010, 11:12 PM
 
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We are going to give this one more try.

The OP is discussing whether it is appropriate to have a military recruitment oriented presentation for 2nd graders. The discussion is not about sex ed, it is not about high school recruitment, it is not about military scholarships, it is not about the validity of a career in the military at all points in time.

If members wish to debate those topics that can be done elsewhere.

Help add to a conversation that allows this thread to stay.

 
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#110 of 117 Old 04-26-2010, 11:41 AM
 
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The OP is discussing whether it is appropriate to have a military recruitment oriented presentation for 2nd graders. The discussion is not about sex ed, it is not about high school recruitment, it is not about military scholarships, it is not about the validity of a career in the military at all points in time.
Sorry.


Without knowing exactly what was said (being present at the presentation) I have a problem with people saying it was predatory. Unless they said, "You have to join the military because it's the best career possible." or "you have no other options available to you in life." there isn't really a problem IMO. If, at the talk back, they said, "This is what the military has done for ME/MY LIFE" I view that as different. That's one person's experience.
Having a fun show for kids is WAY different than active recruiting.

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#111 of 117 Old 04-26-2010, 12:32 PM
 
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Sorry.


Without knowing exactly what was said (being present at the presentation) I have a problem with people saying it was predatory. Unless they said, "You have to join the military because it's the best career possible." or "you have no other options available to you in life." there isn't really a problem IMO. If, at the talk back, they said, "This is what the military has done for ME/MY LIFE" I view that as different. That's one person's experience.
Having a fun show for kids is WAY different than active recruiting.
I think this is the crux of it. We don't know exactly how it went. If it was a normal question and answer session, led by the kids, wanting to know more about military life then I don't see it as inappropriate. If the puppeteers for Sesame Street did a production and the kids asked about what their jobs are like, it would be the same thing, just as if it were police, firemen, or dentists imo. However, the way the OP presented it, it sounds more like the group played some music then launched into a monologue about how wonderful the military is - which is not what was on the agenda. If that is actually what happened, then I would find that an inappropriate use of the provided venue.
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#112 of 117 Old 04-26-2010, 12:45 PM
 
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I think this is the crux of it. We don't know exactly how it went. If it was a normal question and answer session, led by the kids, wanting to know more about military life then I don't see it as inappropriate. If the puppeteers for Sesame Street did a production and the kids asked about what their jobs are like, it would be the same thing, just as if it were police, firemen, or dentists imo. However, the way the OP presented it, it sounds more like the group played some music then launched into a monologue about how wonderful the military is - which is not what was on the agenda. If that is actually what happened, then I would find that an inappropriate use of the provided venue.
The OP wasn't there. I dont' even think the principal was there. I think she was going on what the kids said and that's not super accurate IMO. They're kids and things get skewed by kids...

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#113 of 117 Old 04-26-2010, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am the OP, and no, I wasn't there. Our principal WAS indeed there, and her version of events completely corroborates what multiple kids reported.
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#114 of 117 Old 04-26-2010, 03:13 PM
 
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I am the OP, and no, I wasn't there. Our principal WAS indeed there, and her version of events completely corroborates what multiple kids reported.
I didn't mean to offend.

What did the conversation go like?

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#115 of 117 Old 04-26-2010, 03:21 PM
 
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We are going to give this one more try.

The OP is discussing whether it is appropriate to have a military recruitment oriented presentation for 2nd graders. The discussion is not about sex ed, it is not about high school recruitment, it is not about military scholarships, it is not about the validity of a career in the military at all points in time.

If members wish to debate those topics that can be done elsewhere.

Help add to a conversation that allows this thread to stay.
I disagree that this was military recruitment. There were no recruiters present. It was a military band playing songs for children. They were given the opportunity to answer a few questions. To me, that is outreach and not predatory in the least.
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#116 of 117 Old 04-26-2010, 05:40 PM
 
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Then the performers told everyone about why it's great to be in the armed services.
I could have misunderstood. I was taking the recruitment assumption from the OP's comment above, but I don't really know.

 
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#117 of 117 Old 04-27-2010, 05:54 PM
 
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I don't see a military presentation, as described, as any different than any other career oriented presentation.

Our school has Community Helper Day. Police Officers, Firemen, Nurses, Military, Doctors, Vets, etc. all come to the school and describe their profession to the students. Just because a few don't approve of a particular profession, doesn't mean that is should be censored.

Heck, my DH is a firefighter and our 5yo thinks it is the coolest job ever. He is probably guilty of recruiting his classmates.

What it boils down to is, you are the parent, you teach your children your values. When they are presented with alternative view points, as they will be in a public school setting, they will know how your family feels about a particular subject.

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