School deleaying - "redshirting". - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 97 Old 09-12-2010, 11:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by newbymom05
But IF YOU'VE ALREADY GOT THE SKILL SET, GO TO THE NEXT LEVEL.
As I said, it was important to me that my daughter have a year of kindergarten and that this be the way she began her public school career. She had never been in daycare or preschool. I didn't want her to go straight from 6 years of being at home with me right into first grade. I wanted her to have kindergarten to get used to school, get used to being there instead of with me for a good part of the day, meet her classmates, color, have play-time, low-pressure, fun, learn to enjoy school.

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Would you benefit from taking freshman English again?
Thank you for your excellent example. I actually did just repeat freshman English. The credit didn't transfer. Yup, benefitted me.

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I'm sure you'd make the highest grades, be more responsible than most of your classmates, and be very successful. You'd refresh yourself on some things you forgot.
Yup, yup, yup. Yup.

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But overall, it'd be a total waste of your time, not to mention the instructor's.
Nope, wasn't a waste of time at all. I think I can speak for my professor, too. She loved having me in the class. She asked me to photocopy most of the papers I wrote for her so she could distribute them to future students as examples of the kind of thing she's looking for.

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If you were in a freshman English class, chances are you'd be bored.
Nope, wasn't bored.

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Would it be the instructor's responsibility to challenge you and meet your advanced needs, or would it be your problem to solve, since you voluntarily chose a lower level than you were capable of?
Not the professor's responsibility. Her job is to teach freshman English. My problem to solve. This is what I was explaining before. A kindergarten teacher's job is to teach the basics, with the assumption that her students haven't learned a thing. If she can challenge the kids who already know the basics too, good for her.

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I'm totally not buying the "time immemorial" argument, since academics beyond simple recognition in the lower grades is a recent development.
What I said was that, as long as there have been schools and teachers, there have been students who were taught by their parents beyond grade level before they started school. Teachers have always had to deal with the fact that some students start school knowing all kinds of stuff, and other students start school without having been taught any academics.

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Putting kids who should be at 1st grade level back to compete w/ younger kids only increases the pressure to up the academic ante--a 6 y/o is just more cognitively and developmentally capable than a child a year or more younger.
It shouldn't be about competition. These are 5 and 6 year olds for goodness sakes. It should be about learning. It should be about learning right through college. It should never be about competition. I detest the American attitude that everything has to be a contest. There was a girl in my class in high school who was constantly trying to compete with me, and it was completely one-sided. I couldn't have cared less which one of us got better grades. When she did well I was happy for her. I was there to learn.

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Originally Posted by GoBecGo
When you read a book do you skip the first chapters, given you can already read? School teaches different things for different stages, it's ok to begin at the beginning even if some of the things you might learn you already know, there will be a lot you DON'T know, and a lot of experience you can only get by doing it. There's no way to "download" the experience of K without going through it. For some kids not doing K will be fine, but for others they will really benefit from a year of K, even if they don't learn a lot of ACADEMIC things they didn't already know.
Thank you!

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Originally Posted by newbymom05
I'm talking about having kids REPEAT A GRADE. In other words, Johnny down the street was in a private MDO with a full day kindergarten program at age 5, and now he is 6 and is in a PS kindergarten classroom. This is very common where I live. I'm not talking about kids who are cognitively and/or developmentally advanced and able to do work ahead of grade level, I'm talking "redshirting" in the pejorative sense that a parent has intentionally held back their child to give him/her a perceived advantage, purposely created by having them repeat a year.
Apparently there has been some confusion. My daughter did not repeat a grade. She didn't go to a private kindy before starting public school kindy. The reason I started my dd at age six was not to give her an advantage over other children. I'm not sure how you and I ended up arguing with each other.

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#92 of 97 Old 09-13-2010, 02:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
Girls mature earlier than boys, and deciding to hold a girl back *could* make the difficult adolesent years even more difficult.
Haven't read this whole thread, but you just made me EXTREMElY grateful I was a 4 year old kindergartener. I had breast development in grade 3 & my period in grade 6. I was teased a lot & felt incredibly self-conscious because I was more developed than every other girl in my grade. I can't even imagine how much worse it would have been if I'd been in with a younger group of kids.

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#93 of 97 Old 09-13-2010, 10:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sustainer View Post
As I said, it was important to me that my daughter have a year of kindergarten and that this be the way she began her public school career. She had never been in daycare or preschool. I didn't want her to go straight from 6 years of being at home with me right into first grade. I wanted her to have kindergarten to get used to school, get used to being there instead of with me for a good part of the day, meet her classmates, color, have play-time, low-pressure, fun, learn to enjoy school.


Thank you for your excellent example. I actually did just repeat freshman English. The credit didn't transfer. Yup, benefitted me.


Yup, yup, yup. Yup.


Nope, wasn't a waste of time at all. I think I can speak for my professor, too. She loved having me in the class. She asked me to photocopy most of the papers I wrote for her so she could distribute them to future students as examples of the kind of thing she's looking for.


Nope, wasn't bored.


Not the professor's responsibility. Her job is to teach freshman English. My problem to solve. This is what I was explaining before. A kindergarten teacher's job is to teach the basics, with the assumption that her students haven't learned a thing. If she can challenge the kids who already know the basics too, good for her.


What I said was that, as long as there have been schools and teachers, there have been students who were taught by their parents beyond grade level before they started school. Teachers have always had to deal with the fact that some students start school knowing all kinds of stuff, and other students start school without having been taught any academics.


It shouldn't be about competition. These are 5 and 6 year olds for goodness sakes. It should be about learning. It should be about learning right through college. It should never be about competition. I detest the American attitude that everything has to be a contest. There was a girl in my class in high school who was constantly trying to compete with me, and it was completely one-sided. I couldn't have cared less which one of us got better grades. When she did well I was happy for her. I was there to learn.


Thank you!


Apparently there has been some confusion. My daughter did not repeat a grade. She didn't go to a private kindy before starting public school kindy. The reason I started my dd at age six was not to give her an advantage over other children. I'm not sure how you and I ended up arguing with each other.
Because you keep quoting me and arguing, even though I keep saying that I'm against kids REPEATING KINDY UNLESS NECESSARY? Necessary means they are 6+ and don't have the social/academic skills EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE HAD A YEAR OF KINDERGARTEN. That isn't the case w/ your daughter, so I don't know why you keep arguing either.
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#94 of 97 Old 09-13-2010, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by newbymom05 View Post
I'm totally not buying the "time immemorial" argument, since academics beyond simple recognition in the lower grades is a recent development. Putting kids who should be at 1st grade level back to compete w/ younger kids only increases the pressure to up the academic ante--a 6 y/o is just more cognitively and developmentally capable than a child a year or more younger. That's the reason for what you call "arbitrary age obsessiveness"--the recognition that a year of development at young ages makes a big difference.
Really? You don't think there have always been kids who were advanced when they started school? My 4.5 yr. old is by far the youngest in his K class (3 mos. after the cutoff) and has been reading chapter books for a while.
I think redshirting should be rare for the kids' sake but teachers have always had to cope with children who are at very different levels.
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#95 of 97 Old 09-13-2010, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eepster View Post
http://journal.naeyc.org/btj/200309/DelayingKEntry.pdf


I recommend reading the whole article, it is very informative.

Since you want advice from people who have personal experience with this, I say send her on time. I happen to have a very unique perspective on this. I have a September b-day. I started school in a state with a late cut off, so I was the youngest in the class. I was very happy as the youngest in the class. However, when my family moved to a new state with an earlier cut off (and a 1st grade cut off) I was made to repeat kindergarten as the oldest in class. I was quite miserable, and had issue through out school, till I was 18 and old enough to just drop out of highschool without parental permission.
From the article: "It is the school's responsibility to meet the needs of the children who are legally eligible." If schools were actually doing that, then there probably wouldn't be as big of a push to keep kids back. But, I do not see states actually following these guidelines. Instead, with No Child Left Behind, ALL kids are expected to hit very specific academic goals by the end of K, so they will be "ready" to meet the testing standards in 1st grade, so the schools don't lose funding. So there is a LOT of pressure on the teachers and kids and parents to get the kids to that point, whether they're ready or not. And classrooms have changed to "meet the test" with a lot more sit-in-the-desk academic work, cutting out recess, reducing art/pe/music, etc. If schools/states were following NAEYC guidelines and research about how young children learn best, then this really wouldn't be an issue. But, the fact is they are NOT.

Yes, I understand how parents keeping children back can make the whole problem escalate.... but at the same time, as a parent I'm not going to put MY child into an environment I don't think is appropriate for him. I have to deal with the reality of what the school environment is like when I'm assessing where/when to put my kids... not what it "should" be.

Also, as far as the scaffolding and learning arguments, I think the article is coming from a fairly biased viewpoint that a child not put into school in K is not going to continue learning and developing just because he is not in a school. Parents who hold kids back out of concern that they are not ready are not just going to be sitting the kids in front of the television all day. And there is a lot of research that shows how free play helps mental and emotional development.

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#96 of 97 Old 09-13-2010, 09:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by newbymom05
Because you keep quoting me and arguing, even though I keep saying that I'm against kids REPEATING KINDY UNLESS NECESSARY?
Actually I think it's because you kept making general statements like "So the teacher has to find a way to teach someone the ABC's, someone how to read the Level 2 of Bob Books, and engage someone who's capable of starting chapter books. How is that fair to anyone?" and "overall, [repeating freshman English would] be a total waste of your time, not to mention the instructor's" with which I disagreed. Your very first post referenced children repeating kindy and I did not argue with it. I think you also referred to children repeating kindy another time and I didn't argue that point either. Also, you kept quoting me and arguing with me, so I defended my arguments. If your only issue is kids repeating kindy then it doesn't seem like we should have had anything to argue about.

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#97 of 97 Old 09-13-2010, 09:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
Also, as far as the scaffolding and learning arguments, I think the article is coming from a fairly biased viewpoint that a child not put into school in K is not going to continue learning and developing just because he is not in a school. Parents who hold kids back out of concern that they are not ready are not just going to be sitting the kids in front of the television all day. And there is a lot of research that shows how free play helps mental and emotional development.
the article doesn't talk at all about what happens during the (for lack of a better term) redshirt year. the article talks about the outcomes studies that have examined what happens to kids who were delayed once they are older. Having not seen any of the studies, I can't tell you if they were comparing apples to apples, or if the delayed kids were only compared to on-time start kids. Presumably, the delayed kids have a higher concentration of issues than the non-delayed kids, so unless there is some way to have examined readiness screening results prior to the decision to enroll/delay and match kids who delayed with kids who entered on time with similar readiness screenings, the outcome studies aren't robust enough for a real conclusion.

My son is old enough that delaying kindergarten entrance would never cross our minds. But, if I had a child who preschool teachers recommended we delay, our first stop would be at a developmental pediatrician to rule out developmental issues. This article only cements my opinion on that.
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