Declining pull-out intervention - Rights? (non-IEP US public school) - Mothering Forums

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Old 10-15-2010, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I had parent-teacher conferences yesterday with DC's school. DC is at a public charter school. She has been struggling with reading (no IEP) and has received pull-out intervention at school for the past 2 years. DC doesn't seem to be making much progress in pull-out intervention. I would like to decline in-school pull-out intervention in favor of private after-school tutoring.

Does anyone know what my rights are in this area. I have no reason to believe that the school will deny my request but I want to be prepared just in case.

Also, does anyone have any experience with this that they would care to share.

Thanks!

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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Old 10-15-2010, 07:14 PM
 
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As I stated in your other post, you can pull her from intervention---but I dont know what alternative the school will offer.

They do not have to pay for private tutoring, if that is what you are asking.

They can evaluate for learning disabilities and let you know if she qualifies for an IEP or other services.

Have you looked into free after school tutoring? Some schools have grant funded programs that offer tutoring after school.

Being a Charter school may also change things a bit.
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Old 10-15-2010, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have arranged to pay for private tutoring. We are lucky to have family that we can turn to for things like this. I don't expect the school to do anything other than allow me to decline intervention until the next evaluation period. I just wasn't sure if that was allowed.

As far as and IEP...is that something that must be initiated by the parent? Or, would the school eventually suggest it? Am I wrong to assume that if they (a wonderful group of dedicated teachers) have not yet suggested it that they do not feel that step is necessary yet?

I have considered free tutoring but with limited after-school time I want to be sure that the added time is quality time for DC, yk? I want to feel as if we gave this our absolute best shot or I will doubt things if it doesn't work.

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Old 10-16-2010, 02:43 PM
 
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I don't think it should be a problem at all. Just be clear that you are not ignoring the problem, but simply wish to try addressing it in a different manner.

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Old 10-16-2010, 04:32 PM
 
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If you suspect that your daughter has learning difficulties that are leading to her reading problems, you can request to have her evaluated by the school. You need to put that request in writing, and then they have, I believe, 90 days to assess her and propose an IEP if one is warranted.

During the IEP meeting, you can review their proposed solutions and if you don't agree, you don't have to agree to the IEP. There are a number of parents on the special needs board who have kids with IEPs and are much much more savvy than I am about how they work.

IMO, any 3rd grader who's still really struggling with reading should be evaluated. Personally, I'd want her evaluated for dyslexia and I'd take my child to a developmental ophthalmologist to see if she has issues with vision and/or visual tracking (not just being able to see, but being able to focus and follow a line of text).

ETA: I would ask, while the evaluation process is underway that she not be pulled for reading, especially since they're going to pull her from other content subjects to do the reading .

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Old 10-16-2010, 05:08 PM
 
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I guess it depends on the guidelines of the school. Since the services aren't part of any legal IEP it sounds like it's curriculum-based. Small group and individual sessions might be part of what the school is all about. You need to see if the pull-outs are mandated and if you can decline them. Honestly, as a teacher, aparent of a special needs child, and a former tutor, I probably would keep my child in some form of either pull-out or classroom-based intervention. Even the best tutors aren't in the child's classroom on a regular basis.
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
If you suspect that your daughter has learning difficulties that are leading to her reading problems, you can request to have her evaluated by the school. You need to put that request in writing, and then they have, I believe, 90 days to assess her and propose an IEP if one is warranted.
This is only partially true. You can do this, but the problem with it is that they cannot determine a learning disability without "RtI" (response to intervention) data. They are doing pullouts to get this data. They have to track her progress on an evidence based program. Based on how she makes progress, they will be able to determine a learning disability or not when they go to testing.

It IS true that you can request the testing and they have to do it. However, under the newer IDEA guidelines, they will not be able to make a determination of whether or not a disability is present. It used to be that they used a discrepancy model. Which means they got IQ and achievement scores. If there was a 16 pt. difference between IQ and achievement, it meant you had a learning disability in that area. NOW, with the RtI model, you must put the child through an evidence based program. If sufficient progress is not seen, coupled with the test scores, a learning disability can be determined reliably. With the old system, you would often run into kids who were intelligent, but had a difficult year, gaps in instruction, or behavior problems that caused them to lose ground academically. When put in a good evidence based program, those kids (who would have been labeled LD under the old system) make progress. Conversely, kids with lower IQs had to be almost barely functioning in able to get a 16 pt. discrepancy. I used to always feel frustrated because if you were on a second grade level and had a second grade intellect, you were not LD EVEN IF YOU WERE IN FOURTH GRADE. it was maddening to watch the kids struggle. So RtI is a much better system, but its frustrating for parents because they feel they are getting the "runaround" when it comes to testing, but in reality its just so the testing can really get to a conclusion. So it would basically be a colossal waste of their and your child's time....unless of course, they have enough data from last year's pullouts. If she's not making progress (like you stated) perhaps that is enough to move forward with testing??

I have always wondered though, as a speech pathologist, how any time I pull a child from class we must agree to it in an ARD, yet regular ed kids are getting pulled left and right to do computer programs without even parent consent? It seems strange from a Least Restrictive Environment standpoint. I've been in IEP meetings before where the teacher explains the child is going to My Reading Coach or Destination Math every day, and then explains to the parent that their child is out of the classroom for multiple hours every day in the computer lab. As a parent, my reaction would be "give me the program and they can work on it at home." But the reality is, the school has to have documentation of all this RtI to be able to determine the presence or absence of a learning disability.

So declining pull outs carries some definite consequences. If you think its possible she has a learning disability, I would be very wary of doing so. My guess is that if you decline the pullouts and she fails the grade or struggles, they will have no choice but hold her to promotion/retention standards and continue with regular education until such time as they have the data from those pull outs. Don't wait until the end of the year, if it looks like its going to be an emergency pass/fail situation. It will be too late to gather the RtI data, and she would be retained

Tough situation. Best wishes to you.
XOXO
B

mama to Milena Anjali (4/26/06) and Vincent Asher (4/13/09) ~ married to the love of my life since 2002.
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:49 PM
 
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Beth, when did that change? We developed my son's IEP in March. He was classified as Learning Disabled based on his performance on the assessments that were done by his psychologist, not on anything the teachers had done with him.
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Old 10-19-2010, 03:54 PM
 
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Polliwog,

The change was IDEA 2004. However, IDEA came out before the regulations came out. So basically, while everyone knew it was going to RtI in 2004, how to exactly implement this change was not known by the schools and actively practiced until as late as 2007. Confusing for many of us who would say "but but but IDEA says!!" and the district would say "but the regs are not out yet, so we are still using discrepancy model."

IQ and achievement scores are still used. Its simply that the discrepancy isn't the determinant anymore. Its that the testing shows weaknesses AND the child has not made sufficient progress in an evidence based program (RtI) to expected levels. My guess is that your son was receiving these services during the school day. Have you ever heard any reference to Tiers? (Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3). Did he get small group, one on one, computer program, or any kind of pull outs? The bottom line with RtI is that we cannot simply refer a kid who is struggling to get tested. We have to try other methods first (tutoring, etc.)

Here is a good page explaining more about RtI.
http://www.wrightslaw.com/idea/art/rti.hale.pdf

XOXO
B

mama to Milena Anjali (4/26/06) and Vincent Asher (4/13/09) ~ married to the love of my life since 2002.
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, Beth!! I had my meeting with the school today. It went very well. I need to decompress a little and then I'll come back, read your great post a bit better and give you some details on how it went. Thanks so much for all your help!!

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:23 PM
 
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Polliwog,

The change was IDEA 2004. However, IDEA came out before the regulations came out. So basically, while everyone knew it was going to RtI in 2004, how to exactly implement this change was not known by the schools and actively practiced until as late as 2007. Confusing for many of us who would say "but but but IDEA says!!" and the district would say "but the regs are not out yet, so we are still using discrepancy model."

IQ and achievement scores are still used. Its simply that the discrepancy isn't the determinant anymore. Its that the testing shows weaknesses AND the child has not made sufficient progress in an evidence based program (RtI) to expected levels. My guess is that your son was receiving these services during the school day. Have you ever heard any reference to Tiers? (Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3). Did he get small group, one on one, computer program, or any kind of pull outs? The bottom line with RtI is that we cannot simply refer a kid who is struggling to get tested. We have to try other methods first (tutoring, etc.)

Here is a good page explaining more about RtI.
http://www.wrightslaw.com/idea/art/rti.hale.pdf

XOXO
B
I'm a teacher (well now a teacher-educator) and I've been in lots of IEP meetings in our two county school districts. My son's meeting wasn't different than many others that I've been in.

DS was in kindergarten last year and I requested the school evaluation. While waiting for all of that to be scheduled, I had private psychologist and OT evaluations. Before we wrote the IEP, he was not receiving any services that were different than the other children received. No pull outs, no non-curriculum based small groups. In fact, the LD classfication was quite surprising to both myself and his psychologist. We both felt that his delays were likely to be "young boy with summer birthday in kindergarten" who had also "lived in multiple homes as a toddler/young preschooler (foster care.)" He gets services from the resource teacher daily (either in the classroom or in her room with small groups) and has a weekly appointment with his private OT and psychologist. He's repeating kindergarten this year and is doing much better academically. He just needed more time for things to click. I'm glad he gets the special help, though, so he continues to catch up.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:55 PM
 
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Polliwog,

I'm very surprised that they would even be able to give LD to a Kinder student. In almost all cases of any Kinder student who is referred for testing that I've seen over the years, they will not assign such a label based on the fact the child has barely been in school. By default, they are considered "lack of educational opportunity" since they've barely been in school. The ONLY time I've seen a Kinder student receive the LD label is when the child is scoring borderline MR but it is not conclusive enough to determine at that time. The diag will feel more comfortable going with a lesser severity label like LD.

I would be very concerned personally with a child getting identified as LD after simply one year or less of Kindergarten. I'm not sure I would agree to such a determination and would quite possibly decline services. JMO from afar (knowing nothing of your child or the situation).

Resource is a restrictive placement. I would especially wonder about this decision given the fact that he has some "reasons" for him to be behind (foster care and moving, etc.). Repeating Kinder can be a godsend to many students who just need more time to mature IMO.

Again, if you think its benefitting him and its not restrictive (i.e. he's away from typically developing peers a lot of the day), then I guess you have to decide what is best for him.

I would be tempted to ask them at the next IEP meeting what RtI they based their decision of LD on.

XOXO
B

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Old 10-21-2010, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by BethSLP View Post
I have always wondered though, as a speech pathologist, how any time I pull a child from class we must agree to it in an ARD, yet regular ed kids are getting pulled left and right to do computer programs without even parent consent? It seems strange from a Least Restrictive Environment standpoint. I've been in IEP meetings before where the teacher explains the child is going to My Reading Coach or Destination Math every day, and then explains to the parent that their child is out of the classroom for multiple hours every day in the computer lab. As a parent, my reaction would be "give me the program and they can work on it at home." But the reality is, the school has to have documentation of all this RtI to be able to determine the presence or absence of a learning disability.

So declining pull outs carries some definite consequences. If you think its possible she has a learning disability, I would be very wary of doing so. My guess is that if you decline the pullouts and she fails the grade or struggles, they will have no choice but hold her to promotion/retention standards and continue with regular education until such time as they have the data from those pull outs. Don't wait until the end of the year, if it looks like its going to be an emergency pass/fail situation. It will be too late to gather the RtI data, and she would be retained

Tough situation. Best wishes to you.
XOXO
B
Thank you B!! I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

I had the meeting with the school. They were really great, as I imagined they would be -- I don't know why I felt the need to consider the "worst case scenario".

I expressed my concerns with pull-out programs and they expressed their concerns with doing the intervention outside of school.

Their main two concerns were:

1. That DC had made an entire year's worth of progress last year (I was not aware of that and had the impression that intervention was not working that well for her).

2. The intervention planned for DC was to be the main way the school kept track of her progress. Kids on reading level were kept track of by the main literacy teacher; kids behind were kept track of by the reading specialist.

What we decided was to try private tutors for the 6 weeks of this intervention period. I am going to take this time to get DC feeling more confident in school, address some work skills issues and get into a routine for working at home. Unless she really blossoms in this 6 week period, we are likely going to continue with what we're doing at home and have her take advantage of the school's intervention program as well.

The school did recommend we move forward with assessment for potential LD. I've started talking about this with a few friends and we'll make that decision in the next 6 weeks as well.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:17 PM
 
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I also stopped my son from being pulled out for reading help, though this was twenty-five years ago. They were pulling him out of math class to work with the reading specialist and he was not doing well in math so it was a bit annoying that they didn't provide a read specialist during reading class. Being a teacher, I decided to work with him myself after school. He not only excelled but received a presidential academic award in grade 6 and was on the dean's list in university.
I used dot patterns, I developed, to deal with letter formations. Word decoding lists and small reading booklets with very simple short words that he was able to actually read by himself. Today, I work with children with learning difficulties and have been enormously successful using those same techniques.

Good luck,
Linda.

A mother of a child with learning difficulties and a teacher by profession.
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, TAKlinda. We did decline and are giving it our best for the next 6 weeks. At that point, we'll check back in with the school and see how it goes.

One thing I know for sure, is that the extra help with math is really helping at home. It seems like DC is not absorbing the lessons in class. School seems like a good place for her to practice what she's learned but not the best place for original instruction...or something like that.

Her reading tutor seems to think she can make progress as well so we're hopeful.

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