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#61 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 12:58 PM
 
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Well, there have been plenty of studies showing kids can succeed (at places like certain charter school) with better teachers, even withOUT involved parents.  Come on - the kids are with the teachers more than they are their parents.  It's pretty obvious that teachers would have the greater impact.



Kids are with their teacher more than they are with their parents?  That's a rather ignorant general statement.    My kids are in school 6.5 hours a day.  We are together (not counting the 80 plus hours per school year I spend in the classroom) about 7.5 hours outside of school on school days, and about 14-16 hours each weekend day (not counting sleep for either of the days).  This is to say nothing of the summer break, week of half days before Thanksgiving, school holidays + teacher inservice days (they add up to about 4.5 weeks during the "school year" for our district).  That's hardly spending "more of their time with their teacher than the parent".  Any given teacher only gets 1 or 2 years of those school hours.  I get 18 years of "mine."  I guess if you feel your role as a parent is less significant compared to other adults in your child's life,  then I feel sorry for you--but that's not what I experience nor what my kids experience.  Parents always have the greatest impact.  True, with an excellent teacher vs. a really crappy one, a kid can make progress *in spite of* parental uninvolvement (and parental involvement can mitigate some of the damage of a crappy teacher)--but the best combo is excellent teacher PLUS parental involvement--at least in a school setting.

 

You seem to have a great disdain for school and teachers.  I get that you prefer to homeschool.  I have no problems with homeschooling--it was a really hard decision for our family to place our kids in their (very awesome and cool) program in the public schools, and we re-evaluate every year, which is to say that I am not blindly obedient to our current choice in our child's education.   But I wish that you would give those of us who have chosen differently from you at least a little credit.  Yes, some crappy people probably put their kids in school AND only spend 1 hour a day with them.  There are some horrifically abusive homeschooling 24/7 together families out there too.  Fortunately, most people in homeschooling and other-schooling camps are normal people who are doing the best they can.

 

Kids do NOT spend more time in school than out of it (and BTW, I don't think kids should spend more time in school to remedy that).  A teacher can have a great influence, but over time, parenting (regardless of what methodology of education you choose) always trumps it for good or ill. 

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#62 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 01:14 PM
 
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 Isn't it public tax dollars that are paying a public school teacher's salary?  
 

 

 

Tax dollars also pay for our military and our police and our court system and our highways. I am guessing you would not presume to think you are the boss of police officers and soldiers and judges?

Of course I do!   I think most people do,too.  I am surprised that there would even be a question.  Who is the boss of these people if not the folks funding their jobs and/or electing them into office??
 

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#63 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 01:15 PM
 
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Well, there have been plenty of studies showing kids can succeed (at places like certain charter school) with better teachers, even withOUT involved parents.  Come on - the kids are with the teachers more than they are their parents.  It's pretty obvious that teachers would have the greater impact.



Kids are with their teacher more than they are with their parents?  That's a rather ignorant general statement.    My kids are in school 6.5 hours a day.  We are together (not counting the 80 plus hours per school year I spend in the classroom) about 7.5 hours outside of school on school days, and about 14-16 hours each weekend day (not counting sleep for either of the days).  This is to say nothing of the summer break, week of half days before Thanksgiving, school holidays + teacher inservice days (they add up to about 4.5 weeks during the "school year" for our district).  That's hardly spending "more of their time with their teacher than the parent".  Any given teacher only gets 1 or 2 years of those school hours.  I get 18 years of "mine."  I guess if you feel your role as a parent is less significant compared to other adults in your child's life,  then I feel sorry for you--but that's not what I experience nor what my kids experience.  Parents always have the greatest impact.  True, with an excellent teacher vs. a really crappy one, a kid can make progress *in spite of* parental uninvolvement (and parental involvement can mitigate some of the damage of a crappy teacher)--but the best combo is excellent teacher PLUS parental involvement--at least in a school setting.

 

You seem to have a great disdain for school and teachers.  I get that you prefer to homeschool.  I have no problems with homeschooling--it was a really hard decision for our family to place our kids in their (very awesome and cool) program in the public schools, and we re-evaluate every year, which is to say that I am not blindly obedient to our current choice in our child's education.   But I wish that you would give those of us who have chosen differently from you at least a little credit.  Yes, some crappy people probably put their kids in school AND only spend 1 hour a day with them.  There are some horrifically abusive homeschooling 24/7 together families out there too.  Fortunately, most people in homeschooling and other-schooling camps are normal people who are doing the best they can.

 

Kids do NOT spend more time in school than out of it (and BTW, I don't think kids should spend more time in school to remedy that).  A teacher can have a great influence, but over time, parenting (regardless of what methodology of education you choose) always trumps it for good or ill. 



I tweaked my statement a bit.  And yes, it is my experience, where I live, that lots of kids spend more time with their teachers than they do with their parents. 

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#64 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 01:33 PM
 
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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.

And sit there, upset, because we kept doing our job instead of fetching a chair? Thank goodness you'll never be my boss.
 

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#65 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 01:46 PM
 
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 Isn't it public tax dollars that are paying a public school teacher's salary?  
 

 

 

Tax dollars also pay for our military and our police and our court system and our highways. I am guessing you would not presume to think you are the boss of police officers and soldiers and judges?

Of course I do!   I think most people do,too.  I am surprised that there would even be a question.  Who is the boss of these people if not the folks funding their jobs and/or electing them into office??
 


Well, in the case of soldiers, they ultimately answer to the President  (and reservists also answer to the governor of their state) who answers to the voting public. But you'd have to go through a number of other lines of command before you'd be allowed to watch a soldier at work. Because you aren't their boss. While there is accountability and responsibility, it is not an employer/employee relationship.

 

And I'd love to read the news story when someone hops onto a fire truck to see how the firefighters are doing their work.

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#66 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 01:51 PM
 
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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.

And sit there, upset, because we kept doing our job instead of fetching a chair? Thank goodness you'll never be my boss.
 

 

 

I am not the op - I didn't drop in on my child's classroom.  And I wouldn't be upset about soemone not getting me a chair - I would have got one for myself.  But yes, I think parents should be able to stop in anytime and check out what is happening in their child's classroom. 
 

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#67 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 02:35 PM
 
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I thought the OP e-mailed the teacher.  Is that the case and did you get a response?  I agree with those suggesting you look into moving your daughter into another classroom.

 

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:yeah!  What I don't get is why people revere doctors and argue that they deserve to make $125K+ a year because they "worked so hard to get where they are" but think teachers are overpaid at 40K??  I have just as much education as a doctor (my professor husband has more).  Its such duplicious crap.  I think its due to the fact that teaching was a traditionally female profession and the salary scale was created accordingly....



I must be out of touch.  You have 12+ years of education to be a teacher (not a professor)?  Was that necessary or due to the length of time it took you to complete it, or...?  My understanding was an undergrad degree and licensing was required with some situations (states, employer, job) desiring a Master's. 

 

That said, I would knock the entertainment industry before I knocked the medical community on earning potential.  That's just me, though!  smile.gif


Well I actually have 11 years of classwork plus all the training crap I had to take through my district (which lasted about two years).  Usually a person is only required to have a bachelors degree plus certification (which usually takes two years).  I have a good old fashioned master's degree on top of all of that.  Not that that gets me paid well mind you (I get an extra $1000 a year).

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#68 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 02:59 PM
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Yeah, I was shocked by vbactivist too. My kid's school is open 8:30 to 3:30 (school starts at 9 but kids can come as early as 8:30). Assuming a half hour extra on each end,  this puts the teachers IN the building a minimum of 8 hrs a day. Our last parent-teacher conference was 2+ hrs long. OK, it went a little long. Let's say the average is 1.25 hrs. Multiply that by 20 kids, probably 3 times a year. That's 75 hrs, i.e. almost 2 extra weeks of full-time work. Add to that evening and weekend prep time (you think they can plan their lessons during the brief "specials" hour each day? think again), summer prep and professional learning (for instance this past summer our teachers all met in a sort of book club to learn the Responsive Classroom method of classroom management), evening and after school events, committees, etc. Plus, when I am at my office job, I can take personal calls, emails, run to the bank, buy something on Etsy for an upcoming birthday--yes, excessive personal errands at work are bad form, but if I really NEED to, I can. Not so for teachers. Their 8 hours are really 8 hours, and they don't even get lunch to themselves.
 

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I don't think most people think teachers are underpaid.  They work less hours than most people in the private sector, even with the work they take home.  I am not aware of any profession that gets 10 weeks off a year to start.


 


I don't know whether toROTFLMAO.gifor bawling.gif at that statement. My friends in the private sector get to leave their job when they go home. Sure firefighters get time off too, but they don't have a 4 year degree and aren't required to get an MA to keep their job. For their amount of education, teachers are underpaid. And for the record, they don't get paid for the summer. It's NOT paid time off. It's unpaid time off. My dad had to take summer jobs every summer in order to keep food on the table. He burned his ears to the cartilage installing tin roofs on barns one summer. Overpaid? banghead.gif

 

Have you taught? If so, I'll accept that statement. If not, please go teach for a year and then come back and tell me that teachers work fewer hours than people in the private sector.

 

Sorry, off my soapbox.

 

OP: If you want to know how the class functions, volunteer so you can be there with something to do while the class is running. If you've got such a bad feeling that she just isn't going to work, ask for a transfer.

 



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#69 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 03:09 PM
 
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Yeah, I was shocked by vbactivist too. My kid's school is open 8:30 to 3:30 (school starts at 9 but kids can come as early as 8:30). Assuming a half hour extra on each end,  this puts the teachers IN the building a minimum of 8 hrs a day. Our last parent-teacher conference was 2+ hrs long. OK, it went a little long. Let's say the average is 1.25 hrs. Multiply that by 20 kids, probably 3 times a year. That's 75 hrs, i.e. almost 2 extra weeks of full-time work. Add to that evening and weekend prep time (you think they can plan their lessons during the brief "specials" hour each day? think again), summer prep and professional learning (for instance this past summer our teachers all met in a sort of book club to learn the Responsive Classroom method of classroom management), evening and after school events, committees, etc. Plus, when I am at my office job, I can take personal calls, emails, run to the bank, buy something on Etsy for an upcoming birthday--yes, excessive personal errands at work are bad form, but if I really NEED to, I can. Not so for teachers. Their 8 hours are really 8 hours, and they don't even get lunch to themselves.

 

 

Your scenario is not true for the teachers I know, like my sister.  She gets her lunches to herself.  She also has called me in the middle of the day, so I am not sure what you mean about not being able to take personal calls.  Running to the bank?  Lots of people don't have that option during the work day.  Most of her parent teachers conferences last less than a half an hour.  I will admit, I only am close friends with 3 high school teachers, the rest are elementary school.  And they do not need hours and hours of prep time.  They teach the same stuff over and over - they are teaching to the same testes, year after year.  Please don't be shocked - I am speaking about my experiences.  They are true for me.  I am glad if you've had different experiences :)  All we really can know is true is our own experience. 
 

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OP I think you should trust your instincts here. Something sounds off in the classroom and your daughter's understanding of the situation (whether or not that is what the teacher actually meant to communicate) is upsetting.

 

If you have concerns which you don't feel are - or will be - addressed by the teacher appropriately then I see nothing wrong with going to the principal.  Helping parents, teachers and students navigate the system is their primary job. A good principal will be able to help both the teacher and the parent come to the workable solution.

 

As for the commenters that parents shouldn't be allowed in classrooms unannounced I think that is ridiculous, given the schools policy. Yes interruptions of any kind can throw kids off but parents are not the only - or likely even the most common type of interruption a teacher would encounter ina day. And if there are concerns about how a teacher is interacting with a student when they aren't being monitored/observed how is announcing that the parent wishes to observe going to give a true perspective on the situation. 

 

I also take issue with the idea that teachers work so much harder than others. IME in every professional job I have held, my spouse and friends have held there has regularly been after hours work expected and completed. I'm not negating that teachers work hard - many clearly do. But in Ontario at least they are reasonably compensated, have extended holidays, an excellent pension program, paid professional development, and a strong union to address working conditions.   


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#71 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 03:14 PM
 
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OP I think you should trust your instincts here. Something sounds off in the classroom and your daughter's understanding of the situation (whether or not that is what the teacher actually meant to communicate) is upsetting.

 

If you have concerns which you don't feel are - or will be - addressed by the teacher appropriately then I see nothing wrong with going to the principal.  Helping parents, teachers and students navigate the system is their primary job. A good principal will be able to help both the teacher and the parent come to the workable solution.

 

As for the commenters that parents shouldn't be allowed in classrooms unannounced I think that is ridiculous, given the schools policy. Yes interruptions of any kind can throw kids off but parents are not the only - or likely even the most common type of interruption a teacher would encounter ina day. And if there are concerns about how a teacher is interacting with a student when they aren't being monitored/observed how is announcing that the parent wishes to observe going to give a true perspective on the situation. 

 

I also take issue with the idea that teachers work so much harder than others. IME in every professional job I have held, my spouse and friends have held there has regularly been after hours work expected and completed. I'm not negating that teachers work hard - many clearly do. But in Ontario at least they are reasonably compensated, have extended holidays, an excellent pension program, paid professional development, and a strong union to address working conditions.   


if the clap smiley worked, I would use it right now. 

 

The conditions you speak of for Canadian teachers, are true for American's, too.

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OP I think you should trust your instincts here. Something sounds off in the classroom and your daughter's understanding of the situation (whether or not that is what the teacher actually meant to communicate) is upsetting.

 

If you have concerns which you don't feel are - or will be - addressed by the teacher appropriately then I see nothing wrong with going to the principal.  Helping parents, teachers and students navigate the system is their primary job. A good principal will be able to help both the teacher and the parent come to the workable solution.

 

As for the commenters that parents shouldn't be allowed in classrooms unannounced I think that is ridiculous, given the schools policy. Yes interruptions of any kind can throw kids off but parents are not the only - or likely even the most common type of interruption a teacher would encounter ina day. And if there are concerns about how a teacher is interacting with a student when they aren't being monitored/observed how is announcing that the parent wishes to observe going to give a true perspective on the situation. 

 

I also take issue with the idea that teachers work so much harder than others. IME in every professional job I have held, my spouse and friends have held there has regularly been after hours work expected and completed. I'm not negating that teachers work hard - many clearly do. But in Ontario at least they are reasonably compensated, have extended holidays, an excellent pension program, paid professional development, and a strong union to address working conditions.   


if the clap smiley worked, I would use it right now. 

 

The conditions you speak of for Canadian teachers, are true for American's, too.


I have held both teaching jobs and other professional jobs, and I can tell you although after hours work is expected at both, I have never in my life worked as hard than I did teaching.  Maybe its because I'm damn good at it orngtongue.gif.

 

What I do not understand about this debate is why people think teachers have it so easy in the first place?  And why the resultant distain?  Is it the three (unpaid) weeks off in summer?  Seriously, WTF?  It makes me sad that I spent so much time in school to prepare me for a profession that everyone thinks the world doesn't even need.  I should have been a politician instead...well I guess there is still time.

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OP I think you should trust your instincts here. Something sounds off in the classroom and your daughter's understanding of the situation (whether or not that is what the teacher actually meant to communicate) is upsetting.

 

If you have concerns which you don't feel are - or will be - addressed by the teacher appropriately then I see nothing wrong with going to the principal.  Helping parents, teachers and students navigate the system is their primary job. A good principal will be able to help both the teacher and the parent come to the workable solution.

 

As for the commenters that parents shouldn't be allowed in classrooms unannounced I think that is ridiculous, given the schools policy. Yes interruptions of any kind can throw kids off but parents are not the only - or likely even the most common type of interruption a teacher would encounter ina day. And if there are concerns about how a teacher is interacting with a student when they aren't being monitored/observed how is announcing that the parent wishes to observe going to give a true perspective on the situation. 

 

I also take issue with the idea that teachers work so much harder than others. IME in every professional job I have held, my spouse and friends have held there has regularly been after hours work expected and completed. I'm not negating that teachers work hard - many clearly do. But in Ontario at least they are reasonably compensated, have extended holidays, an excellent pension program, paid professional development, and a strong union to address working conditions.   


if the clap smiley worked, I would use it right now. 

 

The conditions you speak of for Canadian teachers, are true for American's, too.


I have held both teaching jobs and other professional jobs, and I can tell you although after hours work is expected at both, I have never in my life worked as hard than I did teaching.  Maybe its because I'm damn good at it orngtongue.gif.

 

What I do not understand about this debate is why people think teachers have it so easy in the first place?  And why the resultant distain?  Is it the three (unpaid) weeks off in summer?  Seriously, WTF?  It makes me sad that I spent so much time in school to prepare me for a profession that everyone thinks the world doesn't even need.  I should have been a politician instead...well I guess there is still time.



Well I can't speak for the US but in Ontario the annual salary for teachers is somewhere between $47,000 as a start and maxs out around $80,000 (depending on board of ed, location etc).  Given that they have 2 weeks holidays at Christmas, a week+ at March Break and are off for 8-10 weeks in the summer that's not a bad gig in my books.   Claiming that the teachers here aren't paid for the summer is a bit of a misleading statement. Their have an annual salary range that is at or substantially above the provincial average annual salary for all but the first few years of their career. Were they to be paid for the summer their salaries would range from $53K to $90K (and that is assuming they only took 6 weeks off in the summer - leaving them still with 3 weeks of paid winter holidays and another 3 of summer holidays). Schools here are empty til mid August, meaning that teachers are not required to work for 6-8 of those weeks in the summer giving them 10-12 weeks off.  They retire with one of the cushiest pensions in the country for which many are fully eligible at age 55.  The teacher training in Canada is 4 - 6 years plus professional development if they choose to which many do because it immediately raises their pay scale.

 

I'm not negating that it is an important profession, or that it takes training and dedication. It is and it does.

I do take issue with the claims that teachers are poorly compensated, over worked and not respected in Ontario - again I can't speak for the US. I don't know that teachers work any harder over the course of a year than other professions (and I am surrounded by friends and family who are teachers - two siblings, two BILS, a SIL, the spouses of 3 good friends). The salaries are certainly livable - especially when the pension plan, topped up maternity/family leave, regular cost of living raises and job security are taken into consideration.  Most of these benefits are not available in the private sector.  All professions are a choice which come with pros and cons.  Teachers are not the only ones who work hard including after office hours, who have years of training and who contribute to society in meaningful ways and their compensation package is similar or better than that in the private sector for many professions.

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#74 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 06:15 PM
 
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. Plus, when I am at my office job, I can take personal calls, emails, run to the bank, buy something on Etsy for an upcoming birthday--yes, excessive personal errands at work are bad form, but if I really NEED to, I can. Not so for teachers. Their 8 hours are really 8 hours, and they don't even get lunch to themselves.
 


 


 


Lucky you.  If I ran to the bank I would be fired.  Personal calls are Ok in moderation, but email is not.

 

Why the heck do these conversation have to dissolve into "teachers are so underpaid/underworked!  No they are not!  Yes they are!".  Ugh. it is like mommy wars but for the teaching profession.

 

It is also totally OT.

 

Op - they are many pieces of wisdom in this thread and I hope you have gleamed them and have a game plan.  

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#75 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 09:12 PM
 
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Quote:
 Isn't it public tax dollars that are paying a public school teacher's salary?  
 

 

 

Tax dollars also pay for our military and our police and our court system and our highways. I am guessing you would not presume to think you are the boss of police officers and soldiers and judges?

Of course I do!   I think most people do,too.  I am surprised that there would even be a question.  Who is the boss of these people if not the folks funding their jobs and/or electing them into office??
 

 You must have had very easy bosses.  If I was even a fraction as irritating to my boss as the cop who wrote her a ticket for speeding I would not have my job anymore.  I don't think we are in charge of police, teachers, military officers, or judges and they certainly don't think that we are in charge of them.  We all pay as a community for these services so they can be run in a way that benefits all of the community, not just individual people who think that everyone should bend over backwards to give them their way because they pay taxes so they are in charge.  I personally am glad that rapists and murderers don't have the power to fire the people who arrest them or put them in prison, I am glad that teachers work to create environments that meet the needs of all of the children in the class, and I am glad that we have people in office making laws meant to be for the good of everyone (even if I don't always believe they succeed at that). 

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#76 of 103 Old 11-17-2010, 10:01 PM
 
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 A good teacher would not be affected by a parent dropping in.
 

 

 

It isn't the teacher-it is the students who are affected.

 

 

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  And our kids aren't getting any smarter.

 

The single most important indicator of success in school are involved parents. To lay the blame for our failing schools on the idea of lazy teachers who get fat on tenure is very simplistic.


Well, there have been plenty of studies showing kids can succeed (at places like certain charter school) with better teachers, even withOUT involved parents.  Come on - the kids are with the teachers more than they are their parents.  It's pretty obvious that teachers would have the greater impact.



I think the statistic is somewhere around 8 or 9% of a child's total life from kindergarten to senior year is spent with teachers. Not just one, but all of them. It's a very small span of time to be responsible for so much. I get 53 minutes a day, times 170 instructional days. Yet consider what I'm held responsible for, not only concerning parent's expectations of their child's academic growth, but also considering expectations of standardized testing (and I'm in a state where you must pass the exam to graduate!).

 

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OP I think you should trust your instincts here. Something sounds off in the classroom and your daughter's understanding of the situation (whether or not that is what the teacher actually meant to communicate) is upsetting.

 

If you have concerns which you don't feel are - or will be - addressed by the teacher appropriately then I see nothing wrong with going to the principal.  Helping parents, teachers and students navigate the system is their primary job. A good principal will be able to help both the teacher and the parent come to the workable solution.

 

As for the commenters that parents shouldn't be allowed in classrooms unannounced I think that is ridiculous, given the schools policy. Yes interruptions of any kind can throw kids off but parents are not the only - or likely even the most common type of interruption a teacher would encounter ina day. And if there are concerns about how a teacher is interacting with a student when they aren't being monitored/observed how is announcing that the parent wishes to observe going to give a true perspective on the situation. 

 

I also take issue with the idea that teachers work so much harder than others. IME in every professional job I have held, my spouse and friends have held there has regularly been after hours work expected and completed. I'm not negating that teachers work hard - many clearly do. But in Ontario at least they are reasonably compensated, have extended holidays, an excellent pension program, paid professional development, and a strong union to address working conditions.   


if the clap smiley worked, I would use it right now. 

 

The conditions you speak of for Canadian teachers, are true for American's, too.


I have held both teaching jobs and other professional jobs, and I can tell you although after hours work is expected at both, I have never in my life worked as hard than I did teaching.  Maybe its because I'm damn good at it orngtongue.gif.

 

What I do not understand about this debate is why people think teachers have it so easy in the first place?  And why the resultant distain?  Is it the three (unpaid) weeks off in summer?  Seriously, WTF?  It makes me sad that I spent so much time in school to prepare me for a profession that everyone thinks the world doesn't even need.  I should have been a politician instead...well I guess there is still time.



Well I can't speak for the US but in Ontario the annual salary for teachers is somewhere between $47,000 as a start and maxs out around $80,000 (depending on board of ed, location etc).  Given that they have 2 weeks holidays at Christmas, a week+ at March Break and are off for 8-10 weeks in the summer that's not a bad gig in my books.   Claiming that the teachers here aren't paid for the summer is a bit of a misleading statement. Their have an annual salary range that is at or substantially above the provincial average annual salary for all but the first few years of their career. Were they to be paid for the summer their salaries would range from $53K to $90K (and that is assuming they only took 6 weeks off in the summer - leaving them still with 3 weeks of paid winter holidays and another 3 of summer holidays). Schools here are empty til mid August, meaning that teachers are not required to work for 6-8 of those weeks in the summer giving them 10-12 weeks off.  They retire with one of the cushiest pensions in the country for which many are fully eligible at age 55.  The teacher training in Canada is 4 - 6 years plus professional development if they choose to which many do because it immediately raises their pay scale.

 

I'm not negating that it is an important profession, or that it takes training and dedication. It is and it does.

I do take issue with the claims that teachers are poorly compensated, over worked and not respected in Ontario - again I can't speak for the US. I don't know that teachers work any harder over the course of a year than other professions (and I am surrounded by friends and family who are teachers - two siblings, two BILS, a SIL, the spouses of 3 good friends). The salaries are certainly livable - especially when the pension plan, topped up maternity/family leave, regular cost of living raises and job security are taken into consideration.  Most of these benefits are not available in the private sector.  All professions are a choice which come with pros and cons.  Teachers are not the only ones who work hard including after office hours, who have years of training and who contribute to society in meaningful ways and their compensation package is similar or better than that in the private sector for many professions.


Just to put things in perspective, starting salary with licensing but without a Master's in Idaho is 31,900. In Portland, OR, it's 35,000. In Indianapolis, also about 35,000.

 

Being a teacher is a hard job. Many other jobs are also hard, and deserve respect. The issue here, and why this conversation devolved into a "merits of teaching and are they working hard enough" question is because the OP specifically stated that her child's teacher was a second-year, non veteran teacher and was doing a terrible job and fixing her with looks of pure hatred, etc. Using a lot of subjective language, as a PP put it.

 

I think it's important to consider that becoming a good teacher takes time and that yes, new teachers make mistakes, are dealing with a plethora of variables, both seen and unseen by parent visitors, and that misinterpretation of the teacher's behavior may well result in her "getting fired." Especially considering arguments above, that many teachers "don't work that hard" or put in crazy extra hours, it's important to understand... If people want good teachers, people have to give them support, not unending criticism. If teachers are being harangued, they'll never become good teachers, and will either a. stop working so hard, since their stakeholders don't feel they do a good enough job anyway, (this is one explanation of the tenure system, though I may not agree with it) or b. leave the profession, and a dearth of good quality education behind them. This would be a tragedy.

 

This is why my advice to the OP is to pull the child from that class if she's uncomfortable with the teacher or the setting. Sometimes there are personality conflicts. This is also why I respectfully advise against targeting or trying to get the teacher fired. It is up to the principal and/or other supervisors to determine if this non-veteran teacher is up to par or not. It is not the OP's job to judge whether she is a "bad teacher," but only to evaluate if the teacher and classroom are a good fit for her child specifically. Overzealous critiquing on the part of the OP may have way more detrimental effects on that teacher's life than she may ever know. I felt it important to point out the struggles this teacher may be experiencing, while not excusing her from polite parental interactions, which are surely part of her job as a teacher.

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As for the commenters that parents shouldn't be allowed in classrooms unannounced I think that is ridiculous, given the schools policy. Yes interruptions of any kind can throw kids off but parents are not the only - or likely even the most common type of interruption a teacher would encounter ina day. And if there are concerns about how a teacher is interacting with a student when they aren't being monitored/observed how is announcing that the parent wishes to observe going to give a true perspective on the situation. 


Um, by not telling the teacher that you are observing at all. Which means not walking into the classroom and sitting right in front of her.

 

Actually, a planned observation the teacher is expects, and has a chair set up in an out of the way place, would probably result in better data than what the OP did. If there's no surprise, the parent would more quickly fade into the background and the teacher would more readily forget that there is an observer.

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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.

And sit there, upset, because we kept doing our job instead of fetching a chair? Thank goodness you'll never be my boss.
 

 

 

I am not the op - I didn't drop in on my child's classroom.  And I wouldn't be upset about soemone not getting me a chair - I would have got one for myself.  But yes, I think parents should be able to stop in anytime and check out what is happening in their child's classroom. 
 


True, but if you are saying that the OP's actions were reasonable because she is the teacher's boss, that means you think her actions were appropriate in any employer employee relationship.

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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.



ROTFLMAO.gif  Great, why don't you go barge into the White House and see how far that line gets ya?  You are NOT her boss, the principal is. 

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As for the commenters that parents shouldn't be allowed in classrooms unannounced I think that is ridiculous, given the schools policy. Yes interruptions of any kind can throw kids off but parents are not the only - or likely even the most common type of interruption a teacher would encounter ina day. And if there are concerns about how a teacher is interacting with a student when they aren't being monitored/observed how is announcing that the parent wishes to observe going to give a true perspective on the situation. 


Um, by not telling the teacher that you are observing at all. Which means not walking into the classroom and sitting right in front of her.

 

Actually, a planned observation the teacher is expects, and has a chair set up in an out of the way place, would probably result in better data than what the OP did. If there's no surprise, the parent would more quickly fade into the background and the teacher would more readily forget that there is an observer.



Well I am speaking from some personal experience here.  Arriving unnanounced to my son's grade 1 class room was extremely enlightening. There was no "misinterpretting" what was happening in that classroom but I never would have seen it if a visit had been prearranged.

 

Movnmom I agree that teaching as a profession needs to be supported (and teachers are ime) but I think it is dangerous to adopt the mindset that any questioning or concerns should be set aside in an effort to achieve that. Children - not teachers - need to be the primary concern in a classroom and it is the OP's responsibility as a parent to put her child's needs first - not those of the teachers. If her experience is that a new teacher is not doing her job well, she has every right to address that with the adminstration. Teachers not only have tremendous influence over children - they also have little in the way of regular inclass supervision to ensure they are creating a healthy environment.

 

I don't think anyone said that teachers don't work hard - many clearly do but I don't agree with the assertion that they work harder than other professions for less compensation and so we owe them our unconditional support.  I don't think it is healthy to adopt the mindset that teachers need to be revered without question. It's unfortunate that these discussions become polarized so any criticism of specific teachers is seen as denigrating the entire profession.

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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.



ROTFLMAO.gif  Great, why don't you go barge into the White House and see how far that line gets ya?  You are NOT her boss, the principal is. 



I actually talked to dh who works on an airfield for the Army.  I asked what he would say if some civilian walked up and said, "I want to observe the airfield since I'm your boss"  He said he'd reply like it was any other person trying to get on the airfield, "where's your pass?"  Then send them away when they can't show one.  He finds it hilarious that anyone other than in his military chain of command would honestly consider themselves his boss.  Are you the plumber's boss?  In a strange way, but all you can do if he messes up is complain to his, (uh oh here you go) BOSS.  Because you pay for a service, you are not the hiring/firing authority of that person.  You pay to recieve a service, not to be in charge of the person.  You can fire them from the PERSONAL job they are doing for YOU and you alone, not from providing services to other people. This means you are not their boss.  

 

My point is, paying for a service only gives you the right to either use the service or choose a different one.  It does not make you their boss.  You are not the hiring/firing authority, therefore you are not the boss. When dealing with teachers, firefighters, police officers, military, etc.  You are paying for a service, you are NOT their boss.

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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.



ROTFLMAO.gif  Great, why don't you go barge into the White House and see how far that line gets ya?  You are NOT her boss, the principal is. 



I actually talked to dh who works on an airfield for the Army.  I asked what he would say if some civilian walked up and said, "I want to observe the airfield since I'm your boss"  He said he'd reply like it was any other person trying to get on the airfield, "where's your pass?"  Then send them away when they can't show one.  He finds it hilarious that anyone other than in his military chain of command would honestly consider themselves his boss.  Are you the plumber's boss?  In a strange way, but all you can do if he messes up is complain to his, (uh oh here you go) BOSS.  Because you pay for a service, you are not the hiring/firing authority of that person.  You pay to recieve a service, not to be in charge of the person.  You can fire them from the PERSONAL job they are doing for YOU and you alone, not from providing services to other people. This means you are not their boss.  

 

My point is, paying for a service only gives you the right to either use the service or choose a different one.  It does not make you their boss.  You are not the hiring/firing authority, therefore you are not the boss. When dealing with teachers, firefighters, police officers, military, etc.  You are paying for a service, you are NOT their boss.



 

I am confused by your point. If you have a plumber at your house you don't feel it is your right to check in on the work you are doing because they also report to a supervisor in their company.

I think all the poster meant in her comment was that yes teachers do "work" for the public and each year one teacher works specifically for our individual child. That relationship gives parents the right and the responsibility to check in. If a parent believes that the only way to do effectively given the circumstances is by observing the classroom directly. It's common advice to pop in on child care situations unannounced. I am baffled by the suggestion that it suddently becomes inappropriate to even think it might be necessary in a school situation - particularly with kids in the early grades.

 


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I would not want a teacher like that for my child,and would have her moved to another class. If that was not done then I would either homeschool until the nenxt year,or just switch schools completely. I don't go to my kids class. One time I went early to drop off some free eggs(we have hens),and felt bad I interupted them when I thought they would be getting ready to leave.

 

I can understand a teacher wanting a heads up if you are going to the class,but the other things she has done would make me want to pull my kid.No amount of chitchat will change the way that teacher treats her students.

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I am confused by your point. If you have a plumber at your house you don't feel it is your right to check in on the work you are doing because they also report to a supervisor in their company.

I think all the poster meant in her comment was that yes teachers do "work" for the public and each year one teacher works specifically for our individual child. That relationship gives parents the right and the responsibility to check in. If a parent believes that the only way to do effectively given the circumstances is by observing the classroom directly. It's common advice to pop in on child care situations unannounced. I am baffled by the suggestion that it suddently becomes inappropriate to even think it might be necessary in a school situation - particularly with kids in the early grades.

 



Teachers have an actual boss--often several--who is charged with the responsibility of unannounced observations. 

 

Parents pay taxes and use the services of the teachers.  That makes them analogous to clients, not bosses. 

 

Op, I think you should do whatever it takes to change your dd's classroom teacher--for the teacher's sake as well as your dd's.  It is obvious that you don't trust the teacher.  If she is indeed untrustworthy, then it is to your dd's benefit that you have her removed.  If she IS trustworthy, then it is to the teacher's benefit that you have your dd moved.  Hostile unannounced observations would negatively affect any teacher's classroom and performance.

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I see both sides.

 

I understand why teachers and even other parents may not appreciate unscheduelled visits.

 

I understand why a parent feels this is the best way to get the information they need to make decisions for their child.

 

In the final analysis, I think a parent should try to get the information they need other ways  (talking to the teacher,  talking to other parents, voluteering, talking to child, planned observations (although...lets be honest, a planned observation is not going to be as valuable as a drop-in as the teacher will do her best to showcase herself positively during a planned visit)  etc.  If they still feel the need to drop in, I think they should do it.  Let's be honest - how often does this happen in a class - once or twice a year?  I do think a teacher should be able to take that in stride.  

 

Yes, teachers have needs, but parents do too.

 

 

 

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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.

And sit there, upset, because we kept doing our job instead of fetching a chair? Thank goodness you'll never be my boss.
 

 

 

I am not the op - I didn't drop in on my child's classroom.  And I wouldn't be upset about soemone not getting me a chair - I would have got one for myself.  But yes, I think parents should be able to stop in anytime and check out what is happening in their child's classroom. 
 


True, but if you are saying that the OP's actions were reasonable because she is the teacher's boss, that means you think her actions were appropriate in any employer employee relationship.

No, actually, that's not what I mean.  Also, I don't leave my kids at the white house for 6 - 7 hours a day :)
 

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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.



ROTFLMAO.gif  Great, why don't you go barge into the White House and see how far that line gets ya?  You are NOT her boss, the principal is. 



I actually talked to dh who works on an airfield for the Army.  I asked what he would say if some civilian walked up and said, "I want to observe the airfield since I'm your boss"  He said he'd reply like it was any other person trying to get on the airfield, "where's your pass?"  Then send them away when they can't show one.  He finds it hilarious that anyone other than in his military chain of command would honestly consider themselves his boss.  Are you the plumber's boss?  In a strange way, but all you can do if he messes up is complain to his, (uh oh here you go) BOSS.  Because you pay for a service, you are not the hiring/firing authority of that person.  You pay to recieve a service, not to be in charge of the person.  You can fire them from the PERSONAL job they are doing for YOU and you alone, not from providing services to other people. This means you are not their boss.  

 

My point is, paying for a service only gives you the right to either use the service or choose a different one.  It does not make you their boss.  You are not the hiring/firing authority, therefore you are not the boss. When dealing with teachers, firefighters, police officers, military, etc.  You are paying for a service, you are NOT their boss.



 

I am confused by your point. If you have a plumber at your house you don't feel it is your right to check in on the work you are doing because they also report to a supervisor in their company.

I think all the poster meant in her comment was that yes teachers do "work" for the public and each year one teacher works specifically for our individual child. That relationship gives parents the right and the responsibility to check in. If a parent believes that the only way to do effectively given the circumstances is by observing the classroom directly. It's common advice to pop in on child care situations unannounced. I am baffled by the suggestion that it suddently becomes inappropriate to even think it might be necessary in a school situation - particularly with kids in the early grades.

 


Thank you Karen :)

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Movnmom I agree that teaching as a profession needs to be supported (and teachers are ime) but I think it is dangerous to adopt the mindset that any questioning or concerns should be set aside in an effort to achieve that. Children - not teachers - need to be the primary concern in a classroom and it is the OP's responsibility as a parent to put her child's needs first - not those of the teachers. If her experience is that a new teacher is not doing her job well, she has every right to address that with the adminstration. Teachers not only have tremendous influence over children - they also have little in the way of regular inclass supervision to ensure they are creating a healthy environment.

 

I don't think anyone said that teachers don't work hard - many clearly do but I don't agree with the assertion that they work harder than other professions for less compensation and so we owe them our unconditional support.  I don't think it is healthy to adopt the mindset that teachers need to be revered without question. It's unfortunate that these discussions become polarized so any criticism of specific teachers is seen as denigrating the entire profession.

 

 

All of this bears repeating.
 

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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.



ROTFLMAO.gif  Great, why don't you go barge into the White House and see how far that line gets ya?  You are NOT her boss, the principal is. 



I actually talked to dh who works on an airfield for the Army.  I asked what he would say if some civilian walked up and said, "I want to observe the airfield since I'm your boss"  He said he'd reply like it was any other person trying to get on the airfield, "where's your pass?"  Then send them away when they can't show one.  He finds it hilarious that anyone other than in his military chain of command would honestly consider themselves his boss.  Are you the plumber's boss?  In a strange way, but all you can do if he messes up is complain to his, (uh oh here you go) BOSS.  Because you pay for a service, you are not the hiring/firing authority of that person.  You pay to recieve a service, not to be in charge of the person.  You can fire them from the PERSONAL job they are doing for YOU and you alone, not from providing services to other people. This means you are not their boss.  

 

My point is, paying for a service only gives you the right to either use the service or choose a different one.  It does not make you their boss.  You are not the hiring/firing authority, therefore you are not the boss. When dealing with teachers, firefighters, police officers, military, etc.  You are paying for a service, you are NOT their boss.



 

I am confused by your point. If you have a plumber at your house you don't feel it is your right to check in on the work you are doing because they also report to a supervisor in their company.

I think all the poster meant in her comment was that yes teachers do "work" for the public and each year one teacher works specifically for our individual child. That relationship gives parents the right and the responsibility to check in. If a parent believes that the only way to do effectively given the circumstances is by observing the classroom directly. It's common advice to pop in on child care situations unannounced. I am baffled by the suggestion that it suddently becomes inappropriate to even think it might be necessary in a school situation - particularly with kids in the early grades.

 



My point is simply this, you aren't the teacher's boss. It was in reference to the one person who honestly believes that she is the teacher's boss along with all other civil servants.

 

I most definately believe you should be allowed to see the child in class, but if you want to observe the class, call the principal and find out the schedule so that you aren't walking in during reading class, but maybe during centers or some other time that is more appropriate.  Go to the teacher's actual boss and set up a way to do this that is not so invansive as to assume you can walk in at any time.  I do think you should be able to check in on your child, but there are appropriate times and inappropriate times to do so.


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We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.



ROTFLMAO.gif  Great, why don't you go barge into the White House and see how far that line gets ya?  You are NOT her boss, the principal is. 



I actually talked to dh who works on an airfield for the Army.  I asked what he would say if some civilian walked up and said, "I want to observe the airfield since I'm your boss"  He said he'd reply like it was any other person trying to get on the airfield, "where's your pass?"  Then send them away when they can't show one.  He finds it hilarious that anyone other than in his military chain of command would honestly consider themselves his boss.  Are you the plumber's boss?  In a strange way, but all you can do if he messes up is complain to his, (uh oh here you go) BOSS.  Because you pay for a service, you are not the hiring/firing authority of that person.  You pay to recieve a service, not to be in charge of the person.  You can fire them from the PERSONAL job they are doing for YOU and you alone, not from providing services to other people. This means you are not their boss.  

 

My point is, paying for a service only gives you the right to either use the service or choose a different one.  It does not make you their boss.  You are not the hiring/firing authority, therefore you are not the boss. When dealing with teachers, firefighters, police officers, military, etc.  You are paying for a service, you are NOT their boss.



 

I am confused by your point. If you have a plumber at your house you don't feel it is your right to check in on the work you are doing because they also report to a supervisor in their company.

I think all the poster meant in her comment was that yes teachers do "work" for the public and each year one teacher works specifically for our individual child. That relationship gives parents the right and the responsibility to check in. If a parent believes that the only way to do effectively given the circumstances is by observing the classroom directly. It's common advice to pop in on child care situations unannounced. I am baffled by the suggestion that it suddently becomes inappropriate to even think it might be necessary in a school situation - particularly with kids in the early grades.

 



My point is simply this, you aren't the teacher's boss. It was in reference to the one person who honestly believes that she is the teacher's boss along with all other civil servants.

 

I most definately believe you should be allowed to see the child in class, but if you want to observe the class, call the principal and find out the schedule so that you aren't walking in during reading class, but maybe during centers or some other time that is more appropriate.  Go to the teacher's actual boss and set up a way to do this that is not so invansive as to assume you can walk in at any time.  I do think you should be able to check in on your child, but there are appropriate times and inappropriate times to do so.


arg - how do you edit quotes to be a reasonable size - lol. I don't mean this to be epic,.

 

the OPs child attends a school which has a stated open door policy for classrooms. Presumably it is based on the premise that they want parents to be comfortable interacting with the child in the class if the parents sees it being necessary.  Given that this OP feels something is amiss I stand by my statement that she did nothing wrong - and I would back any parent who feels the need to observe unannounced based on an instinct that something is amiss.

 

Whether you call the relationship a client one or a "boss" is semantics IMO.  The fact of the matter remains that the teachers work "for" the families. And the prevailing tone of the system should  reflect that - not the other way around.


 


Blessed partner to a great guy, and mama to 4 amazing kids. Unfortunate target of an irrationally angry IRL stalker.

Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. ~ Buddha

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