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#1 of 40 Old 10-23-2011, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm looking for a little feedback about our experience this year at my daughter's new pre-school. My dd is 3 and I have some concerns about the way she is being treated by her teachers.  The first month of school was difficult with my dd upset at pickup every day and her teachers saying it was a "tough" day when she got into the car. My dd had also a few times said she was put in time-out and that one of her teachers yelled at her and was mad at her. I was very upset about this and spoke with the director as well as the teachers and let them know my concerns.

 

They explained that they don't use time outs but that is the language they use for when a child needs to be removed from a situation. Things seemed to have gotten better since. However, at my parent teacher conference last week I was less than impressed by the level of preofessionalism of the teachers and some of their comments. For example when I was describing the difference between my husband's discipline style and mine one of the teachers said "well, yeah, that's his daughter but just wait until she is 15 out at the bars".  During the meeting there was alot of emphasis put on how my dd does not want to do what the rest of the group is doing sometimes, ie. participating in circle time when she was enjoying playing with a toy or whatever. They were asking me what works at home to get her to do what I want her to. I gave them some ideas but explained that she does have a good bit of freedom at home. I left the meeting feeling like they were essentially trying to get my dd to "fall into line" and I understand that rules have to be followed, but I don't want my child to be perceived as a "difficult" kid.

 

Another focus for them has been her screaming. My dd has a high pitched scream that she will use to let someone know she is mad or to get attention. We have tried to work with her and I will send her up to her room if she wants to scream, but she continues to do it. 

Last week another mother told me that she overheard one of the teachers use a "harsh tone" when correcting my dd for screaming. She explained that she would not want someone speaking to her child that way. She also heard the same teacher say "evie do we need a time out already?" I spoke with the director about these concerns and explained that I am now very unsure about my plans for next year. She told me that they had been having a challenging time with my dd and that there was another teacher now added to the classroom and that she had been "working with" evie. This was news to me, no one explained this to me. She also said that my dd screaming was "frightening to the other children". I am going to be looking at other schools for next year, but I am not sure whether this is me being overly sensitive or if this is not the right school for my daughter.


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#2 of 40 Old 10-23-2011, 02:56 PM
 
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Well, take this for what it's worth: I'm a positive-discpline, consensual-living parent whose children have mostly (though not exclusively) homeschooled.

 

I think that when we send our kids to school we're trusting the school "in loco parentis," in the role of the parent, while they're there. That means that while we might do our best to find a system with a philosophy and disciplinary style that matches ours, the reality is that we're not going to have much success at changing that style if it doesn't mesh with ours and we really have to decide whether we want to trust them in that role if their approach doesn't fit with ours. It's important to realize that strong parental values and consistency at home will generally over-ride different values experienced at school or elsewhere. My dd wasn't corrupted by her piano teacher's passionate use of rewards and bribes, because my values were more fundamental to her than those driving the rewards. Schools do tend to be rife with behaviorist techniques like time-outs, reward systems, withdrawal of privileges and such. That's partly because they're simple, and partly for utilitarian reasons: one can be seen to be acting decisively, fairly and expediently when using such techniques, and also it certainly assists with managing the repercussions of Child A's behaviour on Children B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J and K's sensitive feelings and temperaments. My own kids, for instance, would have been among those frightened and stressed by high-pitched screaming, for instance, so from their point of view immediate decisive action to stop the screaming would have been ideal. Classrooms require difference disciplinary approaches than homes because teachers need to simultaneously juggle the learning and emotional needs of multiple children on both the enacting/giving and witnessing/receiving side of problematic behaviour.

 

As to whether what you're describing is "too harsh," I think that's a hard call. Obviously it's a hard call to make second- or third-hand, but whether something is too harsh depends very much on the child. I have a ds who even up to age 8 or 9 would be completely traumatized by a public correction of any sort (eg. "Hey, kids, the small water slide isn't for use during free swim time, okay?"). He was really at the extreme end on the sensitivity-to-harshness scale. I would ask two questions: First, can you get in and observe in the classroom at all? Second, is your daughter happy there? I think those two things, the latter especially, would tell you more about whether the discipline is too harsh than anyone else's comments on the matter.

 

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#3 of 40 Old 10-23-2011, 05:26 PM
 
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My own kids, for instance, would have been among those frightened and stressed by high-pitched screaming, for instance, so from their point of view immediate decisive action to stop the screaming would have been ideal.

 


I agree with the above. My own kiddos- one gets VERY upset with screaming and would have been unsettled by a child that screams often or frequently.

 

 

Classrooms require difference disciplinary approaches than homes because teachers need to simultaneously juggle the learning and emotional needs of multiple children on both the enacting/giving and witnessing/receiving side of problematic behaviour.

 

 

Yes, I taught 3yr old preschool. And I had to use different techniques in the classroom than I might at home. I am a huggy- positive- call my students by pet names type of person and I do A LOT of positive discipline, but yes- at times my co-teacher and I would remove a student that was endangering/upsetting other students. We did it in a loving, yet firm way. I would never ever shame a child though. It would be a more ' I see you are upset. Together we are going out in the hall/other room/etc to talk about it. When you calm down we can XY OR Z". 

 

As to whether what you're describing is "too harsh," I think that's a hard call. Obviously it's a hard call to make second- or third-hand, but whether something is too harsh depends very much on the child. I have a ds who even up to age 8 or 9 would be completely traumatized by a public correction of any sort (eg. "Hey, kids, the small water slide isn't for use during free swim time, okay?"). He was really at the extreme end on the sensitivity-to-harshness scale. I would ask two questions: First, can you get in and observe in the classroom at all? Second, is your daughter happy there? I think those two things, the latter especially, would tell you more about whether the discipline is too harsh than anyone else's comments on the matter.

 

I agree again. Observe if you can. Even better if you can do so through a window or somewhere where your DD may not see you for portion of it. Some kiddos act much different under the watchful eye of a parent (as do teachers)

 

I will also say that kids may interpret 'yelling' as stern talking to or a raised (over noise) voice. I know one of my DD still struggles at age 6 to know if someone is yelling at HER or simply talking loudly.

 

I think seeing if you DD is happy there and getting daily reports (positive and negative) would be helpful.

 

 

Does this preschool fit with your family values? Is your DD going  a day/time/schedule that works best for her? Is she happy? Does the philosophy fit with her personality? Does the philosophy fit with your beliefs?

 

 

Dont be afraid to switch preschools!  At 3, the best learning is through play. But also kids are learning (and a good teacher should know this) to socialize and how to listen to other adults (not parents). Yes, they should be learning some basic routine skills (waiting a turn, listening to direction, standing in line, share,clean up after themselves,etc) but they should be developmentally appropriate and in a way that allows the child to do so at their own pace (circle times should be short and interactive!).
 

 

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#4 of 40 Old 10-24-2011, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you both, your responses were helpful and made alot of sense. I was very thorough with my search last year and thought this school reflected my values most closely. However, now I am not sure what was a good sell job on the admissions director's part and what was truth. I have asked to observe and was told that there isn't really a way to do it since the window to the classroom is so small. The director observed instead and reported back that my dd was being nurtured and that she was being treated appropriately. I feel so torn, because if I make plans for her to attend another school next year and then she starts doing great and liking this school then it will seem unnecessary. On the other hand if I choose to have her stay and put my dd2 in the two's program there and then realize it was the wrong move I am in the same spot next year. This is not supposed to be so stressful!

Oh, I should also mention that the two other mothers of children in my dd's class that I know well have also not been happy with the teachers and their style. One of them is in the same boat as me and considering switching next year. 


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#5 of 40 Old 10-24-2011, 05:50 AM
 
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 I have asked to observe and was told that there isn't really a way to do it since the window to the classroom is so small. The director observed instead and reported back that my dd was being nurtured and that she was being treated appropriately.

 

This would be a flag for me. The school should have an open door policy. Honestly, any teacher/director that does not want you to visit is a warning sign. Yes, they may ask you not come during naptime, bathrooming, etc to respect sleep patterns and/or privacy. BUT a director observing and reporting back to a parent is not acceptable. What she finds nurturing may or may not be what you or your DD finds nurturing.

 

 

 

 

Oh, I should also mention that the two other mothers of children in my dd's class that I know well have also not been happy with the teachers and their style. One of them is in the same boat as me and considering switching next year. 

 

Again, I would find out why the other parents are switching. Sometimes schools are just not good fits-- nothing again the school or the child, just they dont match up well. But if several families are leaving there is more likely to be a bigger reason.

 

 

For all the paper-sell/ speeches or orientations that are nice at the start of the year-- it really comes down to teacher and her style. Even the same philosophy may 'look' different between two teachers....and may or may not be a good fit.

 

Ask for the teachers credentials as well. Make sure they have experience with that age group and that the child- teacher ratios are good.



 

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#6 of 40 Old 10-24-2011, 06:01 AM
 
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I agree with KCMichgan. Our daycare has an open-door policy. I can walk in at any time, and stay as long as I want.


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#7 of 40 Old 10-24-2011, 06:30 AM
 
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I think that you have already made the decision to move but are unsure its the correct one. To be honest, I would look to switch mid year if the situation does not improve. I was allowed to come and go almost anytime in my daughter's preschool and parents were ALWAYS welcome to observe.  If it were me, I would go to the director and inform her that I want to observe my dd's class this week. Which day would be better? If she refuses, there is your answer...move schools.

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#8 of 40 Old 10-24-2011, 10:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Evelynmia'smom View Post The director observed instead and reported back that my dd was being nurtured and that she was being treated appropriately.

 

I'd be surprised if she said anything else.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evelynmia'smom View PostOn the other hand if I choose to have her stay and put my dd2 in the two's program there and then realize it was the wrong move I am in the same spot next year. This is not supposed to be so stressful!

 

Do you need her to be in preschool? If not, I'd just pull her now instead of leaving a 3yo in an unhappy situation, otherwise I'd look for another program ASAP.


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#9 of 40 Old 10-24-2011, 11:12 AM
 
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I agree with the previous posters.

 

Also, I wouldn't leave her there for the remainder of the year if you believe these things to be true.


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#10 of 40 Old 10-24-2011, 11:51 AM
 
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Did the director refuse to let you observe or did she offer to observe for you because you were both worried that your dd would behave differently if she knew she was being observed.  If the director refused to let you observe I think you should consider it a red flag, in the city I live in the daycare code requires open and unlimited access for parents when the daycare is open.  If she was trying to help you get a true feel for how your dd is doing while the daily routine is in session then I think that isn't a big deal. 

 

It sounds like your dd is a little challenging and requires extra attention and redirection that the teachers are giving her.  You send her away from you at home so that kind of seems to indicate that you are also struggling to deal with her.  Speaking very sternly to a child who spends a significant amount of time screaming and not following routines doesn't seem too harsh to me, but it really does depend on the child and the relationship that child has with the teacher.  Asking a child if they need a break or time out already doesn't seem like a wonderful way to phrase a reminder to behave, but it doesn't sound like an awful one either.  If you truly think that she is going to stop screaming in daycare and start following the daily routine without difficulty if you change daycares then I think you should do so.  If you don't think that is going to happen then I think you should try to work with her teachers.  It sounds like they really did try to include you in helping your dd transition to the expectations of the preschool though and I think that is a very good sign.  A lot of daycare centers dump the hard kids because they have a nice waiting list to fall back on or they know it will only be empty for a short period of time. 

 

I honestly don't think that expecting a child in preschool not to scream and to participate in some limited routine activities is too much for this age.  Even a center that allows a lot of free play will have times when all children need to do one activity because of ratio requirements or because they need all of the children in one area where they can be seen while another teacher makes the lunches or sets out mats.  It isn't something most kids this age struggle with after a very small amount of redirection, having to bring in another teacher to work with a child because they struggle to that extent is very very rare.

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#11 of 40 Old 10-24-2011, 12:10 PM
 
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Did the director refuse to let you observe or did she offer to observe for you because you were both worried that your dd would behave differently if she knew she was being observed.  If the director refused to let you observe I think you should consider it a red flag, in the city I live in the daycare code requires open and unlimited access for parents when the daycare is open.  If she was trying to help you get a true feel for how your dd is doing while the daily routine is in session then I think that isn't a big deal. 

 

this is how it comes across to me as well

 

 

 

 

Quote:

It sounds like your dd is a little challenging and requires extra attention and redirection that the teachers are giving her.  You send her away from you at home so that kind of seems to indicate that you are also struggling to deal with her.  Speaking very sternly to a child who spends a significant amount of time screaming and not following routines doesn't seem too harsh to me, but it really does depend on the child and the relationship that child has with the teacher.  Asking a child if they need a break or time out already doesn't seem like a wonderful way to phrase a reminder to behave, but it doesn't sound like an awful one either.  If you truly think that she is going to stop screaming in daycare and start following the daily routine without difficulty if you change daycares then I think you should do so.  If you don't think that is going to happen then I think you should try to work with her teachers.  It sounds like they really did try to include you in helping your dd transition to the expectations of the preschool though and I think that is a very good sign.  A lot of daycare centers dump the hard kids because they have a nice waiting list to fall back on or they know it will only be empty for a short period of time. 

 

I honestly don't think that expecting a child in preschool not to scream and to participate in some limited routine activities is too much for this age.  Even a center that allows a lot of free play will have times when all children need to do one activity because of ratio requirements or because they need all of the children in one area where they can be seen while another teacher makes the lunches or sets out mats.  It isn't something most kids this age struggle with after a very small amount of redirection, having to bring in another teacher to work with a child because they struggle to that extent is very very rare.

I also agree

 

if you change centers and they also comment on the same issues (sitting, screaming, participation) you may need talk to ped-seems like you have given her time to adjust yet this is still happening- IMO, it would concern me a bit, the screaming for attention and how the others are reacting would be unsettling to me--hope you can resolve these and change of center may or may not be all that is needed here


 

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#12 of 40 Old 10-24-2011, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I don't believe the director was trying to keep me from observing...only make it easier for us to get a clear picture of what is going on without disrupting the class routine. I spoke with the other teacher today and she explained that my dd was improving with the screaming. She said she is a very bright, strong willed child who is "starving" for them to show her how to behave at school. The director explained that they put the other teacher in to model to the newer teacher how they operate there in keeping with their educational philosophy. I feel like they are working hard to make me feel comfortable and to help my dd adjust. I'm less conflicted now about my decision for next year. My dd is challenging to deal with and I had hoped that she would give other adults an easier time than she gives me but I guess that's not the case. I agree that these are behaviours that would exist no matter what school she was in. The screaming is worrysome to me. Is this something I should speak to her dr about? I feel embarassed about her behavior sometimes especially since I try to model at home how to be respectful. I hate to hear how she is acting disrespectful to other adults.

 


 

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#13 of 40 Old 10-28-2011, 01:36 PM
 
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In my state, licensed programs aren't allowed to require children to participate in activities. You can encourage children to do, but you can't make them. And that's how it should be. Lots of kids (especially threes) can learn from group times just being in the vicinity. Group times for threes should be VERY short (and very interactive,) especially so early in the year.

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#14 of 40 Old 11-04-2011, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I just wanted to give a little update and ask another question of you other mamas. So, this afternoon at pickup I could hear my dd hysterically screaming crying on the playground while I sat in the car line to pick her up. I looked out the window and through the fence I could see a teacher (another 3's teacher) holding her by the shoulders and making her sit down on the wall, then she walked away leaving my child to sit there crying hysterically. When I got up to the front of the line to pick her up she was still crying when she got into the car and I asked her teacher "did I see a teacher physically make her sit down on the wall" and the teacher who did this replied, "yes, that was me, is that a problem" to which I replied yes it was.

 

Anyhow, I left with my dd and tried to settle her in the car. I got a call from her teacher explaining that my dd did not want to stop playing on the playground and that out of all of the children's saftely she had to sit on the wall. I explained how upset I was by this and that in my opinion it's not ok for another adult to force my child to do anything unless she is physically hurting someone else. I left a message for the director to call me. When she called she explained to me that I was interferring with their ability to help my dd's development by challenging the teachers and that she was going to refund my money and we would all move on. Ok, so this is wonderful, because I was going to pull her out after what I saw and ask for my money back. My question is this. How detrimental would it be to keep her home with me for the rest of the year and then put her in a 4's program? Will she have a tough time next fall after almost a year of no school?


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#15 of 40 Old 11-04-2011, 12:14 PM
 
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How detrimental would it be to keep her home with me for the rest of the year and then put her in a 4's program? Will she have a tough time next fall after almost a year of no school?


Well I have a 15-year-old ds who started attending school this fall after no school for 15 years and he is doing fabulously. lol.gif

 

Really, though, I'm of the opinion that some children are not ready for school at age 3, or 4 or 5, or whatever. They would do just fine if they were able to attain the requisite readiness and maturity, but because school at age ___ (5? 4? whatever it is in your area) has become the norm, we feel the need to hurry our 3-year-olds along in their maturity and readiness. But you really can't "hurry maturity," can you? It's a developmental thing.

 

In the old days kids used to start school at age 6. Schools realized that a certain proportion weren't ready at that age (though they probably would have been by age 7), so they instituted kindergarten, a mostly play-based program designed facilitate that readiness. Now instead of it taking a full year to really adapt to academic expectations (i.e. until they were 7) those kids took a full two years (from 5 to 7) to be ready. And of course, it was clearly such a long process to get them ready, it seemed like maybe we should start a little sooner, so pre-K was introduced, where they'd start at age 4. And still some of them weren't ready by 1st grade, so we started putting 3-year-olds in preschool for even more of a head start. All the while labouring under the illusion that the programming we were subjecting them to was essential to their achievement of readiness for 1st grade. 

 

I believe that when kids live interesting lives with caring adults and achieve full developmental readiness on their own timetables, the transition to school will be quick and smooth. What's required is maturity, not training. 

 

Miranda

 

 


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#16 of 40 Old 11-04-2011, 12:29 PM
 
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Pretty much what moonmama said. But I would work more on behavior over the next year. I have one child that made me need to rethink the way I discipline on several occasions lol. 

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#17 of 40 Old 11-04-2011, 12:51 PM
 
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 My question is this. How detrimental would it be to keep her home with me for the rest of the year and then put her in a 4's program? Will she have a tough time next fall after almost a year of no school?

 

 My niece was nearly 6yo before starting school for the first time (K, 1 Sept cut-off) and my children didn't start until 5/5.5yo (K also) shrug.gif; academically ds was fine (ADHD issues though), and dd is on track for the school/states expectations of a K student.


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#18 of 40 Old 11-04-2011, 05:14 PM
 
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 My question is this. How detrimental would it be to keep her home with me for the rest of the year and then put her in a 4's program? Will she have a tough time next fall after almost a year of no school?

 

 

I would attend as many programs as you can for both of you in the meantime- library story hours, etc. where you are there and can better direct the expected behavior.

 

If you plan to place her into a group type program I would check it out and see how may have been in "school" prior and how well they can deal with a child that has not had the experience the others have had.

 

3 or 4's program can be very much the same- all would come down to what they expect the children to conform to and what your child is capable of.

 

some do wonderful with no pre-school but so much depends on the child and what is and isn't expected and how willing the child is to meet the norms set by the teachers


 

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#19 of 40 Old 11-04-2011, 08:09 PM
 
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I don't think it will be detrimental to wait until she is older to try school again if you don't need her in care because you have to work.  A lot of kids only do preschool for a year or two.  I don't think that the teacher was wrong to restrain her if she was causing a safety concern for other children on the playground, but it does sound like your dd is in a situation that she just can't handle right now. 

 

It would probably help to find some activities with a little structure as well as opportunities for free play with others to do on a regular basis so you can help her work through some of the issues that came up when she was in a slightly more structured environment and when she was participating in free play with other children.  It is a very rare center that doesn't have kids follow some sort of loose schedule even if they do allow a lot of choice during the free choice and outside play periods so exposing her to short activities with a routine may help if your goal is preschool next year.  It would probably be detrimental for your dd to get kicked out of another center because of her behavior so waiting and helping her mature some before trying preschool again seems like a really good idea to me.  I

 

If it doesn't work out then she may do just fine going straight into Kindergarten.  I think that expecting kids to follow a routine before they have to isn't always an appropriate expectation.  If you can stay home with her and give her a few years to be a kid who is free of structure then I don't see that as a bad thing.  Many kids go from home to Kindergarten and do well with that transition.

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#20 of 40 Old 11-04-2011, 08:34 PM
 
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 force my child to do anything unless she is physically hurting someone else.

 

 

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I don't think that the teacher was wrong to restrain her if she was causing a safety concern for other children on the playground, but it does sound like your dd is in a situation that she just can't handle right now. 

I agree too

 

please take into consideration when you posted about your DD screaming and the effect that it can have on other children-I stated perviously that I would be concerned about that and you may want to explore the root of this and a way to help her better dealing with the cause here-IMO

 

this can have a sever effect on others not simply "physically hurting"- you may need to adjust your perspective here


 

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#21 of 40 Old 11-05-2011, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I agree that the screaming is troublesome and I think it has decreased dramatically. The issue that I had yesterday was not that my dd was dealt with for her behaviour but how she was dealt with. As far as I was told she was not screaming and frightening people and thus had to be restrained. It was explained to me that she was having fun playing and screamed no at the teacher when she was asked to come sit down. I understand that rules have to be followed and my dd has to listen to the adults in charge, however if the only tool this educational professional had was to grab my dd by her shoulders and force her to sit while she was screaming crying and then proceed to leave her there crying then that is not a place for us. 


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#22 of 40 Old 11-06-2011, 11:32 AM
 
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If she was scaring the other children, not listening to the teachers when they told her to stop, then not leaving the group to calm down I am not sure what you expected they would do besides leading her over to the wall and helping her sit down.  Leading her by the shoulders seems much kinder than taking all of her control away from her by carrying her there.  I am sure there are times when you have also made your child do something she didn't want to do and I don't see this situation any differently than I would if you posted about you making her sit (or go to her room) by leading her by the shoulders. 

 

Teachers will often give children space to calm down before discussing the situation with them, sometimes because they know that the child tends to escalate if they stick around to talk right away, sometimes because they know the child tends to want to be left alone, and sometimes because they child is pushing all of their buttons and they need to walk away for a moment to regroup.  Three year olds tend to have tantrums from time to time and I don't think they are bad teachers just because they walked her to a step and made her sit down then didn't give in to her just because she had a tantrum. 

 

I know that putting your child in care can be very hard because you give up a lot of control and you will never find someone who can do things exactly like you.  When your child seems to be struggling it is even harder to not feel stress and to not see negative motives in everything the teacher does.  Hopefully you can find some lessons to apply to the next time you choose care for your dd though, even if those lessons are to specifically ask about how situations like scaring friends and refusal to listen to teachers when told to do something are dealt with. 

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#23 of 40 Old 11-06-2011, 05:42 PM
 
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and screamed no at the teacher when she was asked to come sit down. I understand that rules have to be followed and my dd has to listen to the adults in charge, however if the only tool this educational professional had was to grab my dd by her shoulders and force her to sit while she was screaming crying and then proceed to leave her there crying

 

to the OP - had you been the teacher- what would you have done here?

how could she be removed as to not cause additional problems for the other children? where they to pick her up?

 

I think the screaming thing is a really big issue and you will need to deal with this sooner or later- while you say she did not scream at the other children, why do you fail to see that her screaming at the teacher is as problematic?

 

I hope you don't just view this one sided and that the teachers and school are all to blame here- it does not come across as just one sided 

 

if this is a problem only within this type of setting maybe she is not ready to be in "school", if it is a problem outside as well maybe more is going on here

 

 

 


 

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#24 of 40 Old 11-06-2011, 10:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Evelynmia'smom View Post
How detrimental would it be to keep her home with me for the rest of the year and then put her in a 4's program? Will she have a tough time next fall after almost a year of no school?


Given that this school is not a good fit with your discipline philosophy, I think your daughter would be better off waiting a year.  Honestly, it sounds like they either don't have enough experience or enough staff. My kids' preschool and daycare (they were in both -- different places) only ever restrained a child when they were hitting someone. They would lead them, they would sometimes give them the choice of being 'helped' or walking on their own (usually this was the under 3s) to a quieter space. But they had the teacher to be with that child to work through the problem.

 

It sounds like your daughter doesn't transition well. It's a pretty common trait at 3. My kids do lots better when they have warning, time to finish what they're doing and get ready to change. Dd is 7, and her first response is still often "No!" "Dd, in 10 minutes, it's time to get your swimsuit on and go to swimming lessons." "no!" (which I ignore, as I've learned that arguing doesn't help.) In a few more minutes I'll say "Ok, finish up, in 2 minutes it's time to put your suit on." (no response). "Ok, let's get that suit on." And 95% of the time she does it. Her initial reaction is often "no". That "no" doesn't mean that she won't do it, it means "I need more time". I'm working with her on more appropriate language (actually saying "I need more time") as she's old enough where "no" is not OK. At 3, I wouldn't expect that kind of sophistication of expression.

 

I'd spend a year trying to figure out how to help her through transitions and try a different program next year.


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#25 of 40 Old 11-07-2011, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

 

 

to the OP - had you been the teacher- what would you have done here?

how could she be removed as to not cause additional problems for the other children? where they to pick her up?

 

I think the screaming thing is a really big issue and you will need to deal with this sooner or later- while you say she did not scream at the other children, why do you fail to see that her screaming at the teacher is as problematic?

 

I hope you don't just view this one sided and that the teachers and school are all to blame here- it does not come across as just one sided 

 

if this is a problem only within this type of setting maybe she is not ready to be in "school", if it is a problem outside as well maybe more is going on here

 

 

 


It was my understanding that she wanted to continue playing, not that she was hurting or scaring anyone. When the teacher told her to come sit on the wall she refused and that is when the teacher physically moved her to the wall while she was screaming crying and left her there alone to cry. It is this that I have a problem with. I do not think this is one sided at all. My dd is a challenge and some of her behaviors are problematic, and I realize that the teachers have to help her manage these behaviors. However, if the only tool they have is to physically force her to do the things she doesn't want to do then that is not the place for her. She is a strong willed child and the methods that may work for more compliant children don't work for her. Isn't it the job of a professional to figure out the best way to work with her and if they can't to speak with the parents about how to best help that child? She was in a 2's program last year and while the same issues were there (not wanting to do certain activities and occasional screaming) the teachers really only had nice things to say about her and genuinely seemed to like her. My dd would run to one of the teachers and hug her and talked about her all the time. This is not the case with the teachers she has now. Anyway, I will try to find another school for her and will ask more detailed questions this time, knowing some of the issues that exist now. If, the same behaviors continue I will have to speak to her dr.

 

 


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#26 of 40 Old 11-07-2011, 04:40 AM
 
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 Isn't it the job of a professional to figure out the best way to work with her and if they can't to speak with the parents about how to best help that child? 

 

 

you stated in your first post that they had asked you and also they had to be concerned with all the children's safety at the same time- they are outside and this is not a one on one program- I really think it is unfair to expect that what they did was really so wrong, they took her from the group and made her sit

Not saying the teachers were right or wrong (because neither you or anyone here saw what happened) but I don't know what you expected to have happened- while you say she didn't scare others- didn't the -

 

Quote:
 hysterically screaming crying 

 

cause up-set to the other children? 

 

if simply telling her no causes this outburst what are they to do with her- how are they to remove her from the others when she acts like this?

 

I think you will need to come up with a way to deal with this but keep in mind many programs are not set up for one and one and do not have that many teachers to just deal with one since they had other children outside at the same time and as you go with older age groups they have less of a teacher /student ratio in general programs

 

I hope you find what is needed and please look into doing programs with both of you, perhaps she will better start to understand what is required when she needs to transition. At some point if you do plan to do "school" maybe you could do a few days a week and work up to a full week program. If she is having no problems with you (transiting) maybe a few days a week might be the answer for her. Was this class at the same place she attended the other? If so, maybe you could talk to last years teacher and get their take on why the other teachers had such an issue.

 

 


 

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#27 of 40 Old 11-07-2011, 07:25 AM
 
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I'm making an assumption that, by "preschool", you mean a full-time program, while you work.  If this is a part-time, completely optional, enrichment sort of thing, surely you would just remove her, if people are yelling at her and she doesn't enjoy the class?

 

On and off for nearly 2 decades, I've taught preschool.  Mostly, it was at a co-op, which is delightful.  Kids are only there for a brief period, appropriate for their age and attention span.  When they start to get tired and act up, it's time to go home!  Co-op has a clearly-defined "learn-through-play" philosophy and kids spend most of the day choosing what interests them, from a variety of activities.  (Think Reggio light.)  Even in co-op, we occasionally needed to put a kid in time-out, but we weren't afraid to admit that to parents.  Parents volunteered in class and saw what went on; and teachers, parents and kids were all involved with each other in the community, outside the classroom.  There was a lot of comfort and trust.  Even my worst-behaved kid knew without a doubt that I loved her.  So did her parents.  We all still get excited, when we run into each other.  Parents and kids both recognized that, when a child violated other kids' rights somehow - and when that child could not be reasonably redirected - having him/her sit out until he/she calmed down enough to be considerate of others was perfectly reasonable and fair.  Not one parent ever got bent out of shape about me putting their child in time-out, but I didn't need to do it very often.

 

However, I've also had some experience in day-care centers that call themselves preschools, because the term "day care" drives away modern parents.  So does the phrase "time out"!  So full-day "preschool"s tend not to use that phrase, either.  That doesn't mean they don't use the practice, any more than avoiding the term "day care" means they aren't one.

 

There can be good day cares, and good day care employees!  But bad or good, a day care's most important relationship with parents is not community-building.  It's financial.  A day care must maintain the highest functional student-teacher ratios to stay afloat.  Even then it can't afford to pay employees a fraction of what they deserve.  A day care owner/manager has to be concerned with whether you'll pull your child out of their center, if you hear that they use time-outs; or if someone is honest with you that your child's behavior problems are more extreme than the norm.  So that owner/manager will intensely counsel employees to use careful verbiage, to sound like they never use stronger discipline than a calm, sugary suggestion that a child "make a different choice"; and to never tell parents a child's behavior amounted to anything worse than a "tough day".

 

But, honestly:  when you're caring for the highest allowable number of young children, in some cases for most of their waking hours, every weekday, all year long, you cannot possibly run things the same way as a 2-1/2-hour/day, 3-day/week, fall-through-spring program...and you absolutely cannot run things the way a parent at home with one or two of their own children would.  It is not possible to effectively - or safely - manage a day-care environment where every child can do whatever they want, all day; nor where disruptive behaviors like screaming or defiance are tolerated as an expression of the child's unique personality, as in some homes.  Although day-care employees shouldn't raise their voices or act frustrated with a child...if you spent all day, every day, not only with your own daughter, but with nine or more other kids her age who weren't yours, would you never yell or feel fed up?  Landing a job at a day-care doesn't make a person insensitive to stress.  They're not just playing with the kids and teaching them numbers and letters.  They're feeding, changing and comforting them and dealing with all the biting, hitting, swiping, crying, melt-downs, etc. inherent when kids spend all day away from their parents, in a highly social environment when they're too young to have many social skills.

 

If the current preschool is not a good fit for your daughter (and it sounds like it's not), you should look for a different one.  If her teachers are overwhelmed and don't speak to her professionally, look for a place with either an older, very experienced, very patient teacher; or a very young, energetic, idealistic one.  Regardless of your daughter's behavior, you are paying people to find a way to meet her needs while you're not there to do it, not yell at her.

 

But if you know some of her behavior is challenging, be realistic.   If you consistently hear (esp. from different people at different schools) that she is disruptive, upsetting to other children, defiant to her teachers, etc. you need to ask yourself:  Are the relaxed, permissive ways you may respond to her at home preparing her for the very social, structured, institutional environment you are choosing to put her in?  A child who is not taught the social skills to thrive in the environment she's put in - who alienates the other kids and constantly feels at odds with her caregivers - will not be happy in that environment.  Please don't read too deeply into this analogy, but raising a dog as a pampered lap-pet and raising a dog as a disciplined working animal (say, a seeing-eye dog) are both fine!  But raising a dog as a pampered lap-pet, then giving him to a family as a seeing-eye dog would be unfair to the dog and the family.  Likewise, certain combinations of child-temperament and child-rearing techniques are just fine for kids who will spend their childhoods in a free-spirited home-school environment.  But those same combinations may render a child unhappy and unable to adjust, in a life with day-care and public schools.  Whereas, day-care and public schools can be just fine for a child who has the tools to thrive there!  Decide what your family's and your daughter's needs are and try to be consistent.


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#28 of 40 Old 11-07-2011, 08:59 AM
 
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I'm not sure why it might be detrimental to have your daughter at home the rest of the year. In fact, it might be a good thing - IF you use that time to work on her behaviors. While I think the comment about when she's 15 and in bars at night was totally inappropriate, none of the other things you describe sounded out of line for a kid with the behaviors you describe.

The screaming thing has got to be really disturbing for the other kids and teachers. That would be my first priority to work on while you're at home with her. I agree with the pp that if she is not being taught or being expected to use the social skills she's going to need in a preschool setting, it really isn't fair to put her into one.
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#29 of 40 Old 11-07-2011, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well I am trying to teach her these skills. I am not really very permissive, although I don't force her to do what she doesn't want to do. I usually have success with warnings and counting to 3 with her as well as giving her the choice to do something on her own or have me help her walk, sit etc. She was reay last year for school and did well under the teachers that she was with. As I said before I am not the only parent with problems at this school. The mix of these teachers and my dd's temperment don't mix and it is supposed to be a pleasant experience for her and for me as she is only there 3 days per week for 3 hours. 


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#30 of 40 Old 11-07-2011, 03:29 PM
 
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With respect to the screaming, at least, though, I think it might be worth changing your approach. Rather than permitting her to scream (albeit directing her to do so upstairs) I think it would be helpful to make it clear that screaming is not an acceptable way to express emotions or communicate vocally any more than hitting is an acceptable way to touch people physically.

 

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