What teachers wish parents knew... A good read. - Mothering Forums

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Old 03-07-2013, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/06/living/teachers-want-to-tell-parents/index.html?fb_action_ids=10151799400661632&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582

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Old 03-07-2013, 08:04 PM
 
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I read the article, but a couple of the examples rubbed me the wrong way. Particularly the one about avoiding all the "excuses." Of course I don't know the context of the anecdote (child had not commenced an extensive summer reading assignment until two weeks before school began). But I can imagine scenarios where in my priority system that would be perfectly acceptable. For instance, one summer my kids spent June and July doing classical music intensives (fun, and packed with learning but very busy!), had a week away for a family canoe camping trip, and then their grandfather's cancer took a turn for the worse, and we ended up living at his place to help out with end-of-life care. My dd read Harry Potter books aloud to him during those final three weeks, because she loved those books, and he had always taken an interest in them too. If she'd had a summer reading assignment, you can bet I would have totally stood behind her *not* doing it that summer. I don't think for a moment it would have indicated that she wasn't "succeeding" ... either as a reader, as a learner or as a human being.

 

It seems very presumptuous to me when teachers assume they know better than their students and the students' parents to what is best for that student during their discretionary time. I really do not think that school and school work should trump everything else all the time. And if there are good reasons why it doesn't trump something in a child's life, a parental explanation isn't "making excuses," it's communication.

 

I also disagree that it's often the best teachers giving the lowest grades. I think the very best teachers of all are doing more than just raising the bar on expectations: they're giving students the tools and the motivation to rise to, meet and exceed those expectations. My ds is taking an advanced history seminar class this year where all four students are earning A's, my ds carrying a 98%. But those students are putting three to four times as much work into that course than they are into any of their other courses, including dozens of out-of-school hours spent at (optional) lectures, workshops and field trips. They exuding passion about the history and anthropology they're studying -- it's amazing!

 

I do think there are some reasonable points made in the article. But I think the writer is being simplistic and uncharitable.

 

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Old 03-07-2013, 09:30 PM
 
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That article seriously made me gag a little.  grossedout.gif

 

Sorry, just had a very adverse reaction to reading that.  I'm not disputing that parents can make teachers' jobs more difficult at times, but I strongly disagree on the values and priorities set by the educators in that article.

 

I guess the disdain I feel for our education system and some of the teachers within can go both ways wink1.gif

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Old 03-08-2013, 02:29 AM
 
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Interesting article, and agree with most of it. Being a teacher is mostly a thankless job. BTDT, and I got out of it as soon as I could. No matter how much you dedicate to it, it's never enough.

Agree with moominmama, maybe that example wasn't too well chosen, but the great majority of the teachers I know would definitely understand that a child could not complete their assignment, especially when a death in the family is involved.

Yup, some people just hate teachers.
 


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Old 03-08-2013, 09:09 AM
 
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I thought on this all night.  Something about it just really, really rubbed me the wrong way. 

 

Just to be clear, I do not hate teachers.  I have a strong dislike for the system, and have a healthy respect for teachers who do their best to work within the confines of such a dysfunction.  The ones who do it well are heroes imo.  

 

This article bothered me all night.  It really made me bristle.  After thinking on it many hours, I believe my strong reaction is to the author's implication that the parent teacher relationship should be a dictatorship (with the 'clueless' parents deferring at all times to the the teacher) instead of a partnership.  

 

Teachers like this author do anger me.  He has a tough job (one of the hardest imo), but his answer is not to question his practices or expectations, but to instead blame the parents.  Anyone's job, no matter what they do, is easier when they meet no resistance, and they get their way all the time.   Sorry, my job doesn't work like that, and I'm pretty sure most other professions don't enjoy those perks either.  It isn't real life.  

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Old 03-08-2013, 09:29 AM
 
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Yeah, agree with you about most other professions not being dictatorships. That was actually one of the sentences I laughed at in the article, when he says that when teachers give advice parents should simply heed it, just like they do with advice from doctors or lawyers. Sorry, but I'm a doctor, and that's a serious misunderstanding of what people do with doctors' advice. People listen to a doctor's advice -- if it's given respectfully and with a sense of partnership -- and then they make their own choices based on that advice and whatever personal and situational factors also come into play. I'm sure it's the same with lawyers. Perhaps if this teacher finds his advice is not being taken into account at all it's because he's giving it with the same arrogance and paternalism that he's written this article with.

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:53 PM
 
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The part I agree with is that there are too many parents that do not want their children to have difficult experiences, or even have the experience of something "unfair." Even when something "unfair" happens at school, it can be a great learning experience, because there surely is a lot of unfairness in life. I am not offended by the article, even though it takes a little bit of a tone. I think there has been an increase in parents working against teachers, and making excuses.
 


 
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not a teacher, but I am a parent of two (now in colege), so have run the gamut of teachers with them. As well as having the opportunity to observe other parents. 

 

Yes, we have had teachers (very few, though), who were more on the dictatorial side. With those, I tended to tell my kid that this was a good learning experience with how to deal with difficult people, as they will have to do so in the real world. Most, however, were very willing to talk to - and work with - parents for ensuring the maximum success of the child. Yes, if there was a good reason for not completing out-of-school work, most were willing to work around it. Summer reading? Sure, they had some trouble getting it done - but there was a plan involved, which the teacher was made aware of. Homework when they were spending the weekend with their Dad? Again - I let the teacher know ahead of time what the challenges were, and we came up with a plan together, where they would get some extra time w/o being penalized. There was never a "well, Johnnie can't do XYZ, so you should just excuse him because it's not his fault...." whine. I have *never* had a teacher (even the dictatorial ones) refuse to work with me and my child. 

 

But... I have also seen parents who have ever excuse under the sun. The child could NOT have done what the teacher said, because said child was a GOOD kid, who would NEVER do something wring. Bull - all kids do stuff "wrong". That's (one of the ways) how they learn it's wrong. It does them no favors to have a parent fix it for them. 

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Old 03-09-2013, 03:29 PM
 
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I thought it was a great article.  Thank you for sharing it!  I had actually already found through trial and error that most of what he says is important to do for my dd to behave well and make progress academically.  I don't have any illusions about my child being perfect or all children needing to be A students in order to be of value so what he says about kids misbehaving or getting a lower grade than you want them to makes sense.  The only part I think was silly was the part where he assigned reading over the summer, that isn't the norm where I am though so it made no sense. 

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Old 03-09-2013, 03:53 PM
 
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I do not understand the differences in grades between good and bad teachers. If a child is bright and catches on quickly, that would be equally true regardless of the teacher's ability to teach.
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:59 PM
 
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I do not understand the differences in grades between good and bad teachers. If a child is bright and catches on quickly, that would be equally true regardless of the teacher's ability to teach.

The thing is, you are marking the assignments the student submits not your general sense of how bright they are. Some assignments have objectively right or wrong answers (1 + 1 = 2, Canberra is the capital of Australia etc) and it is fairly easy to achieve uniformity in marking across a variety of teachers. However, other assignments are more subjective, there often isn't a right or wrong answer as such. Then it is up to the marker to interpret the question, how the student answered the question and what is required to achieve each grade level. Most Australian universities ( I don't know if schools are the same) have a published description of what constitutes a fail, pass, credit, distinction and high distinction. Most places, schools and uni's, also have marking committees and workshops etc to improve uniformity in marking.

However teachers will often get a reputation among students as being a "hard marker" or an "easy marker". A high mark from a hard marker is considered more valuable because they set a higher standard. This is all subjective of course as only the mark will make it onto the academic record.

Teachers who are perceived as "bad" are often thought to be easier markers to cover the fact that they aren't presenting material in a way that makes it accessible or making their expectations clear or whatever. Even the brightest students can struggle to learn with a poor teacher.

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Old 03-09-2013, 08:13 PM
 
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After 14 collective years of public school between my 3 kids; honestly, this article makes me so mad.  My kids have had mostly GREAT teachers and I have showered thanks on them.  I am actually the head of Teacher Appreciation Week for my kids elementary school. We have also had a couple of stinkers - people who have made my kids dislike school and learning for the year and who GOOD teachers have had to work extra hard to repair the damage from the previous year.

 

Teachers are leaving because parents are ruining the job - really? Students and parents are your clients. Everyone has clients, it doesn't matter what job you have - you have clients and they are what makes work challenging. I am a social worker and a consultant - my job would be easier without client, but I am always polite to them even when they are making my job difficult. Only a teacher would think to tell their clients off.

 

I have had a teacher tell me my quiet kid was a behavior problem once. I did bristle because in preschool and K-7th I was told he was a behavior problem exacatly once...by a teacher who cut and pasted comments about all of the boys behavior problems into report cards using a different name than my son.

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Old 03-10-2013, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The only part I think was silly was the part where he assigned reading over the summer, that isn't the norm where I am though so it made no sense. 

 

It's been pretty standard in the schools my kids have been in. Depending on the age/level, it could be one book, or it could be several. In HS, there was a difference between regular, Honors and AP classes. It was pretty standard to have regular classes have one book to read, Honors to have two, AP three or more (as well as writing related to the readings). AP math, history & science classes also had summer work. Not something I had a problem with, as it got them rolling on the first day of school, rather than needing review time due to three months off. 

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Old 03-10-2013, 10:12 AM
 
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The thing is, you are marking the assignments the student submits not your general sense of how bright they are. Some assignments have objectively right or wrong answers (1 + 1 = 2, Canberra is the capital of Australia etc) and it is fairly easy to achieve uniformity in marking across a variety of teachers. However, other assignments are more subjective, there often isn't a right or wrong answer as such. Then it is up to the marker to interpret the question, how the student answered the question and what is required to achieve each grade level. Most Australian universities ( I don't know if schools are the same) have a published description of what constitutes a fail, pass, credit, distinction and high distinction. Most places, schools and uni's, also have marking committees and workshops etc to improve uniformity in marking.

However teachers will often get a reputation among students as being a "hard marker" or an "easy marker". A high mark from a hard marker is considered more valuable because they set a higher standard. This is all subjective of course as only the mark will make it onto the academic record.

Teachers who are perceived as "bad" are often thought to be easier markers to cover the fact that they aren't presenting material in a way that makes it accessible or making their expectations clear or whatever. Even the brightest students can struggle to learn with a poor teacher.


The problem with subjective tests, quizzes and assignments is the teacher can target a child with unfair marking, and in no way is it absolute that the teacher is a good one! I lived through three years of crap with a teacher who was trying to prove I was a "dumb, problem child" (her words). It was a miserable experience, even though there was enough mutliple choice tests that my overall grades remained high. Also, it was fortunate that my other teachers were aware of the problem and didn't back her up when she tried to claim I had misbehaved in any public area of the school. That left her only with the classroom to control, and it was horrid! The teacher who wrote the article reminds me too much of her for me to say I agree with the article.
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:28 PM
 
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It was pretty standard to have regular classes have one book to read, Honors to have two, AP three or more (as well as writing related to the readings). AP math, history & science classes also had summer work. Not something I had a problem with, as it got them rolling on the first day of school, rather than needing review time due to three months off. 

 

This strikes me as "continuing schooling through independent study over the summer." It's not about the need for review of old material: that would be in cumulative subjects that have skill-based learning, like maths, where students might benefit from continuing to review skills from the previous year so that they don't get rusty. My kids have been able to get down to serious work on their courses within the first week of school without having spent the summer reading and writing essays. If the expectation where you live is that structured academic learning continues year-round, well I guess that's fine if parents want it that way. Personally I prefer summers to be for unstructured learning and/or for extra-curricular structured learning. Our plans for various kids this summer include a trip to India, instrumental music master class intensives, chamber music camp, dance and mountain-biking intensives, work in the service industry and in arts administration, and several extended back-country hiking trips. I can't imagine why it would be preferable to bail on some of those awesome, learning-packed opportunities in order to do lots of assigned reading and write an essay for AP history before school resumes. But that's my perspective, and our schooling choices have been made accordingly; perhaps most parents aren't like me and prefer schoolwork to continue through the summer. Seems like a missed opportunity to me though.

 

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Old 03-10-2013, 12:35 PM
 
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This strikes me as "continuing schooling through independent study over the summer." It's not about the need for review of old material: that would be in cumulative subjects that have skill-based learning, like maths, where students might benefit from continuing to review skills from the previous year so that they don't get rusty. My kids have been able to get down to serious work on their courses within the first week of school without having spent the summer reading and writing essays. If the expectation where you live is that structured academic learning continues year-round, well I guess that's fine if parents want it that way. Personally I prefer summers to be for unstructured learning and/or for extra-curricular structured learning. Our plans for various kids this summer include a trip to India, instrumental music master class intensives, chamber music camp, dance and mountain-biking intensives, work in the service industry and in arts administration, and several extended back-country hiking trips. I can't imagine why it would be preferable to bail on some of those awesome, learning-packed opportunities in order to do lots of assigned reading and write an essay for AP history before school resumes. But that's my perspective, and our schooling choices have been made accordingly; perhaps most parents aren't like me and prefer schoolwork to continue through the summer. Seems like a missed opportunity to me though.

Miranda

Agreed!
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:26 PM
 
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He strikes me as someone who doesn't have children. I have seen a similar attitude with teachers who don't have kids. Most of the ones who do have kids (not always) know that the parent knows the child best. He strikes me as the kind of person who thinks he knows the kids better than the parents do. 

 

I think for some families they might do better if they would only listen to what the teacher had to say and take their advoce, but their kid probably acts up at home, too, and they don't care. For parents who care about how their child is doing at school a partnership approach rather than a dictatorial approach works much better IME. I really appreciate it when the teachers listen to what I have to say and ask me about what makes my child tick. Most parents have many insights they can offer to teachers, and I really think most teachers I have been in contact with do appreciate that. I think the author probably does, too, but is probably ranting because he's run into some of the other kinds of parents, too.

 

It sounds like his area of focus is economically disadvantaged inner city kids many of whom probably do not have the kinds of advantages that MDC parents can give their kids even if that's just time. Some of these parents may be working multiple jobs or some may not care as much as others.However, his audience for his article is broader than the parents at his school. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that his words could be appropriate for his school audience, but I think for the MDC audience they ring harshly. 

 

My kids' best teachers have been neither the ones who graded hard or easy, but the ones who really engaged with students and took the time to get to know each student and meet each student where he or she was. I think if a teacher is a hard grader that can be a sign that they are not effective. Their students aren't learning the material. 


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Old 03-11-2013, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This strikes me as "continuing schooling through independent study over the summer." It's not about the need for review of old material: that would be in cumulative subjects that have skill-based learning, like maths, where students might benefit from continuing to review skills from the previous year so that they don't get rusty. My kids have been able to get down to serious work on their courses within the first week of school without having spent the summer reading and writing essays. If the expectation where you live is that structured academic learning continues year-round, well I guess that's fine if parents want it that way. Personally I prefer summers to be for unstructured learning and/or for extra-curricular structured learning. Our plans for various kids this summer include a trip to India, instrumental music master class intensives, chamber music camp, dance and mountain-biking intensives, work in the service industry and in arts administration, and several extended back-country hiking trips. I can't imagine why it would be preferable to bail on some of those awesome, learning-packed opportunities in order to do lots of assigned reading and write an essay for AP history before school resumes. But that's my perspective, and our schooling choices have been made accordingly; perhaps most parents aren't like me and prefer schoolwork to continue through the summer. Seems like a missed opportunity to me though.

 

Miranda

 

This assumes that the two are mutually exclusive. They're not. 

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Old 03-11-2013, 08:25 AM
 
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As a parent who has spent a lot of years watching children unschool, I have noticed that in fact they are to a large extent mutually exclusive. The energy, interest and motivation to learn in unstructured and self-structured ways simply does not fully awaken when part of one's daily life contains ongoing academic structure. Curiosity and creativity take on a qualitatively different aspect during fallow times when inspiration and engagement are allowed to bubble to the top on their own. Some pretty cool stuff tends to evolve when learners are allowed to fully decompress from other-structured learning.

I will admit that by age 16 or 18 the capacity for passion and creativity is likely either there or not. At those ages it's probably less important to learning (though likely still helpful to emotional well-being) to have that annual release from other-directed academic structure and responsibility. I assumed that since the article was written by a middle school teacher and administrator, that's the age-group he was talking about.

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Old 03-11-2013, 02:03 PM
 
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I just started working at a public school in January, and I can already see some of what the author is talking about. For example, our school has several different placement options for a child, one of them is Structured English Immersion. These are wonderful classes, limited in size to 15 students and taught by teachers who are bilingual (Spanish) and are certified to teach SEI. But we currently have a parent fighting their child being placed in that class because she is convinced that he will get a better education in the gen ed class. The gen ed class that he will go into will be based on the smallest class for his grade, which has 24 students in it and is taught by a teacher who doesn't speak Spanish. What the school can't tell the mom is that the SEI class has super nice kids and is a well behaved class where learning happens,and that the gen ed class has several special needs kids and a couple of kids with behavior disorders an just maintaining order is an issue. Her son would be MUCH better off in the small class where the teacher and other students speak his language, but she is fighting it and will most likely win, which means that her son will lose.

 

There are parents who are a nightmare -- who if they are told something negative about their child freak out and threaten to get the teacher fired. Some of the children with the biggest problems are impossible to help because their parents are so busy being sure that the problem is the teacher or the school that they cannot help their child. Education works best when it is a partnership between school and home, but some parents see the school and the teachers as adversaries.

 

The question isn't whether school or unschooling works best. That's a completely different question. But rather if a child is attending a traditional public school, what attitude can parents have toward the teachers that ends up being most helpful to the child. And realizing that the teachers see the student in a different light, in a different situation and that their input has value is the main point the author is making.

 

As far as summer homework, I do see that as separate. Some schools have it, and some don't. And some have it only for elective classes such as honors or AP courses. If it is as simple reading a couple of books, I fail to see what the big deal is. Both my kids easily read a novel a week in the summer -- 2 assigned books over the course of the summer wouldn't be a big deal for them at all.  Because here such reading is only assigned in classes that students chose to take and are warned ahead of time required extensive time outside of class, excuses make no sense.


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Old 03-11-2013, 02:19 PM
 
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I can take the entire article with a grain of salt and accept that maybe it is possible most parents are like that... but the part that bugs me about teachers in general are the ones that seem to have the most trouble with teaching are the inexperienced, childless recent university grads whose first instinct is to blame the parents, the socioeconomic status of the family or insist on medicating the child. I get that teachers are "highly educated" (if you consider 4 years of post-secondary "highly educated"), but with any vocation out there, one needs years of experience before they can start rolling their eyeballs and assuming other people are the problem. The best teachers are usually the ones that are interesting and who students can relate to or have so many years of experience and hundreds of kids under their belt that they know how to deal with all kinds of children. Parents can beg and plead with their children at home to sit still in class until they're blue in the face, but if the teacher has no control over any of the kids, there is not much a parent can do when they're not there.

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Old 03-11-2013, 02:39 PM
 
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My mom is a teacher. My grandmother is a teacher. I believed teachers. I trusted teachers. After years and years of listening to, supporting and following the advice of teachers (general and special ed) my special needs son is emotionally destroyed and uneducated. We got an attorney and an education advocate. DS is now in an appropriate program getting the services and education he needs, but the years lost and the emotional damage will take a long time heal. The problem was that the teachers didn't listen to me. My concerns were dismissed and I believed that the teachers were the professionals and that they knew best. So, obviously the article rubbed me the wrong way.
 


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Old 03-11-2013, 07:15 PM
 
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I think it's a mistake to generalize, both parents and teachers. Some parents are the biggest pain. The same is true of some teachers. I had an outstanding newly graduated teacher and a horrible nearly retired teacher. And lots of other combinations. And that's the main problem with the article. It generalizes parents in a bad way, and teachers in a good way. More could be accomplished by focusing on behaviors, not categories (parent/teacher).

Regarding summer reading : I hated most of the books I was required to read for school, and I am grateful I had summers away from that stuff.
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:16 PM
 
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Linda on the Move - I understand what you are saying and I know there are parents who are working against or doing nothing for their children's education.  I know because I have been volunteering in public school for 14 years.  My grandmother was a teacher, my father was a teacher, my brother and sil are teachers. Also, my professional background is that of a child welfare social worker so I have seen a range of parenting skill sets. (Which for the record makes me feel like professionals should be strength based with even the most challenging families)

 

That being said - of the 25 plus teachers my kids have had - several have been excellent and many have been fine, but a couple have been downright adversarial and detrimental to their well-being. Every year at the end of the year, I write the principal a letter complimenting my children's teachers and citing their specific strengths.  I also do this with bus drivers (talk aboout a thankless job!) and other staff members such as custodians and the school nurse.Still the couple of times I have had trouble (both times with teachers who were reputed not to be the best who I was ready to give the benefit of the doubt) the principal has been unresponsive and the response has been that I can't put any complaints on paper about any staff members.  What other job is like that? Where nobody is allowed to officially complain about you? I am currently a consultant - if 30% of my clients had a legitimate complaint about me - my boss would stop giving me customers.

 

I do think that parents are too quick to blame teachers and schools for problems. OTH society and schools are also often quick to blame parents.  If you don't like students or parents (even the challenging ones) - then working in a school is going to be a drag.    

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Old 03-11-2013, 07:23 PM
 
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BTW - Only the first paragraph of my response was to Linda on the Move.  The rest of it were just thoughts I have had on this topic for awhile. 

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Old 03-12-2013, 06:55 AM
 
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I think it's a mistake to generalize, both parents and teachers. Some parents are the biggest pain. The same is true of some teachers. I had an outstanding newly graduated teacher and a horrible nearly retired teacher. And lots of other combinations. And that's the main problem with the article. It generalizes parents in a bad way, and teachers in a good way. More could be accomplished by focusing on behaviors, not categories (parent/teacher).
 

 

I agree with you.


but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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Old 03-12-2013, 12:56 PM
 
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I bristled a little bit at the "making excuses" because it reminded me of the teacher I had in 2nd & 3rd grade. Now, she actually was a really good teacher! A bit tough, strict, and high expectations but I think she had a good balance of providing tools to succeed and treating us with respect. She also threw in lots of unique activities and hands on learning experiences that were very enriching. So, this is one pet peeve not a complaint of a bad teacher ;) If I (or anyone) didn't turn in homework it was "Why?" and I would say "I forgot" and she would say "I don't want to hear excuses!" This was beyond my articulation as a 7-9 year old, and also beyond my willingness to talk back to a teacher, but I was annoyed because she *asked* why I didn't turn my homework in and the REASON is I forgot. I didn't expect it to be an "excuse" or not have a consequence.. I simply answered the question. I learned after awhile that the correct answer to that question to make the teacher happy was "no excuse". 


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Old 03-12-2013, 02:19 PM
 
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I bristled a little bit at the "making excuses" because it reminded me of the teacher I had in 2nd & 3rd grade. Now, she actually was a really good teacher! A bit tough, strict, and high expectations but I think she had a good balance of providing tools to succeed and treating us with respect. She also threw in lots of unique activities and hands on learning experiences that were very enriching. So, this is one pet peeve not a complaint of a bad teacher ;) If I (or anyone) didn't turn in homework it was "Why?" and I would say "I forgot" and she would say "I don't want to hear excuses!" This was beyond my articulation as a 7-9 year old, and also beyond my willingness to talk back to a teacher, but I was annoyed because she *asked* why I didn't turn my homework in and the REASON is I forgot. I didn't expect it to be an "excuse" or not have a consequence.. I simply answered the question. I learned after awhile that the correct answer to that question to make the teacher happy was "no excuse". 

 

I COMPLETELY identify with this.  Wow, visceral reaction there to old memories. 

 

About summer reading, he asked "Can you feel my pain?"  My answer is an unequivocal 'No'.  Agreed with whomever here said maybe that was a bad example.  Because I think he's right, parents do their kids no favors shielding their children from taking responsibility for their own selves. For owning their own actions and accepting their roll in life's consequences.  About summer reading, I was never once assigned any, so maybe that has something to do with my attitude.  But summer break is decompression time for my kids and me, and I preserve and protect it.


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Old 03-13-2013, 09:20 AM
 
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A little off topic, but how do summer reading assignments work? Don't kids have a different teacher when they go back in September? and what if kids switch schools? Does it effect their grade if they show up to a new school and don't have the assignment done? I'm in Canada and have never heard of summer reading assignments. 

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Old 03-13-2013, 09:32 AM
 
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I'm Canadian too and have never heard of or experienced summer reading assignments here either. But my impression is that they're typically at the high school level, and set by the incoming teacher for the course: the info package is handed out in the spring before school ends by your next-year's English or History teacher. If you arrived in the fall not having signed up for the course during the spring selection process it would be just like signing up for any course late: you'd have to catch up.

 

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