Common Core? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-01-2014, 04:51 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

I agree, LotM. I think it works similarly in our city. It's not like wealthy neighborhoods get more money per pupil. I think here it works that all students in the district get about the same per pupil allotment and then more for children with special needs and/or more for Title 1. One difference here is that every district seems to have some allotment for title one. So, for instance a well-off district may see a school with 30% poverty qualifying for title 1 assistance and in my city schools must have am much higher percentage of children qualifying for FAPA to qualify for extra funding. 

 

I don't really know much about high school education in my city so I can't comment on books. I guess I assumed that the whole culture around books has changed... My DC hasn't had any books yet in 6th grade. 

 

Miranda, 

 

How does Canada handle students with special needs? We lived 3 years in Germany and one of the things I thought was interesting was how they differentiated their education system. In some ways their system is a good example of differentiated education but a lot of Americans were raised to highly praise inclusive education.  I think this issue is complicated in terms of how we balance ideals with reality. Does Canada have some sort of standardized goals and/or evaluations?   


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-01-2014, 05:06 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
 

In many states, common core is taking what was already nutty and making it far, far worse. More testing for more grades, longer tests, formative standardized tests to make sure they will do well on the end of year test, testing for Kindergarteners, and even..... weekly standardized tests to make sure kids are learning what they are supposed to.

 

And the cut scores!!!! These are completely arbitrary with common core but higher than expected in the past. Tests scores are expected to drop by about 30%. Lots more kids will be deemed to be not where they should be. I honestly would be surprised if you got a straight answer out of an administrator. This is very top down, and not being gun hoe about it could reflect very poorly on an administrator. If you try to find out what they think, ask sideways questions such as how much additional time is needed for formative assessments, or how are the addresses english language learners. I wouldn't bother asking "what do you think of common core?"

Good tips, Linda!  I think I could probably serve and admin or two a few drinks and get a good response. ;-)  

 

I appreciate your input, I really do!  

 

This whole thread (being bumped) has made me realize how important it is to be involved on the national level, at least to some extent, on our kid's education (if we choose public school).  

 

In our city, testing has been part of education for my DC. Even with the state assessments it was made clear to my DC (both my me and her teachers) that these tests were meant to evaluate the education she was receiving. So, at least for us, a "bad grade" is internalized my my DC as her teachers needing to refine their program. This may seem harsh towards the teachers but it's not expressed in that way for my DC. 

 

As a parent it's hard to take what you personally object to for your own child (I don't love her taking assessments or the idea that her education is tailored to some extent to assessments) and assessments and standards make my skin crawl... but in a big city with a lot of obstacles to education, with a lot of burned out teachers and admins, and a lot of corruption...it's very hard to dismiss the importance of some sort of objective evaluation. 

 

A big part of me feels like a sell-out for saying 'yea, standardization sucks, testing sucks, but it's a reality.' :(


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 05:18 PM
 
beanma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: with the dustbunnies & sugar beans
Posts: 8,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)

My dd2 goes to a title 1 elementary school. About 25-30% of the students are from non-English speaking families and about 50% of the kids receive Free and Reduced Lunch. Again, Common Core is a non-issue at our school. Our district is also the top performing district in the state and one of the best funded because our town has higher taxes that go to the schools (very progressive area). 

 

There are a LOT of things I would do differently about public schools in general, but I really like dd2's school and for the most part am very happy with the teachers and admin there. 

 

I'm not a big proponent of Common Core, but I don't think it's a death knell for public education. I'm sure something else will come along in another decade. 

 

North Carolina (my state) adopted Common Core in 2010 and did the first Common Core specific testing last year. It wasn't any more testing than they had pre-Common Core, but just different. Scores did go down as predicted because overall the schools in the state had not been covering the material in the way it was presented on the test. Our district did the best in the state. 

 

It is beyond ridiculous to call "The Bluest Eye" pornographic. It's a Nobel Prize winning work of literature. 


Mamatreehugger.gif to two girl beans, Feb 2001hearts.gif and Nov 2003coolshine.gif . DH geek.gif, and two crazydog2.gifdog2.gif . Running on biodiesel since 2004!
 
"All you fascists are bound to lose" — Woody Guthrie
beanma is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:07 PM
 
gooseberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)

I teach high school English in Oregon.  Here's what I know about how the CC will affect my students.  In many ways it is much more rigorous than the current standards in Oregon.  Our current writing test for 11th graders, for example, gives them a very open-ended prompt on a topic that is not academic in any way. (Tell a true story about a time helping someone else actually ended up helping you more; Explain what courage means to you; Persuade an adult in your life that your plans for your future will be beneficial to you.)  The level at which they have to write in order to be able to pass this assessment does not make them college ready.  Many students who receive the passing score in all of the categories would still need remediation in college.  

 

We have started to get a sense of what the test will look like for next year's 11th graders (the first cohort to take the assessment for the CC).  It looks like Oregon will go with the SmarterBalanced assessment.  For the performance task, which merges reading, writing and analysis skills, students will be given 4-5 "stimuli" on a topic.  Stimuli include written pieces, video and audio clips.  They will view/read/digest these stimuli and take notes to help them respond to three constructed response questions and those questions are supposed to help them create an essay on the topic.  My understanding is that this is supposed to be timed, but the time line has some flexibility to it.

 

Here's a link that we were sent for a sample test:  https://sbacpt.tds.airast.org/student/login.aspx?c=SBAC_PT

 

My current 10th grade students participated in a simulation written by our county's ESD.  Not even close.  Not a single one was even close to passing.  I teach 20 students in a sheltered 10th grade class for English Language Learners and they all read at a 4th grade level.  That's certainly lower than the average reading level in our school, but we have a majority of high poverty students (up to 70% on free lunch) and my colleagues who do not teach accelerated classes (we do offer AP) were finding their class average was a 6th grade level.  This will not go well for them.

 

I feel like the standards themselves are fine for kids who plan to go to college.  They are more appropriate than the current Oregon standards for kids who are planning to go to college.  I don't believe that we should live in a world, however, where a college education is mandatory for earning a family wage.  In the USA that is becoming more and more true.  There is no unskilled labor market here anymore, at least not one that can earn you anything.  Then, to rub salt in that wound, college graduates can't find work in their field, and can't get out from under their debt.  It's absurd and it's criminal.

gooseberry is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:20 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooseberry View Post
 

I feel like the standards themselves are fine for kids who plan to go to college.  They are more appropriate than the current Oregon standards for kids who are planning to go to college.  I don't believe that we should live in a world, however, where a college education is mandatory for earning a family wage. 

I agree. The very first thing I thought about when I read about CC was, "Hey, college isn't for everyone!"  I also agree that if the goal is for every HS student to go to college then college becomes even more meaningless than it is now. 

 

Do students in your 10th grade class who read on a 4th grade level have IEPs? 

 

Did your students take an assessment in previous years?   

 

From your perspective, is CC an extension of other standards or does it feel like a different animal? 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:33 PM
 
slbrooks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The problem is that this is just the beginning. It's only going to get worse we must stand up and fight for our children. It's called corporativism I believe. This was all started by corporations and the government is dishing it out slowly and "explaining" it to parents. Parents need to wake up. We need to care more than just that our kids are shipped off to school. This is REALLY scary stuff. We have to have our children opt out of tests! If your kid is going to take a standardized test check out how you can opt them out. Read Kris Nielsen's books or find your local/state facebook page against the common core or other websites against the common core and support us caring grassroots organizations. We care about the kids!
slbrooks is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:36 PM
 
gooseberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post

 

 

Do students in your 10th grade class who read on a 4th grade level have IEPs? 

Some of them do.  Some are dual-identified.  The majority of it, however, is because they are English Language Learners.  Their conversational English is fine, for the most part, but their reading and writing are so far below grade level.

Did your students take an assessment in previous years?   

There was another simulation done last year when they were 9th graders.  It also did not go well.

From your perspective, is CC an extension of other standards or does it feel like a different animal? 

I just think, from an English Language Arts standpoint (at the high school level), that it represents more rigor.  For college bound students I think it's fine.  I like how it asks them to digest sources and develop a claim that they support with evidence.  Those are skills needed at the college level that our current standards don't even begin to address.  There's nothing in this movement, however, to address the needs of students who don't enter K "ready" and who enter high school 4-6 grade levels behind in reading.  How are we supposed to help them?

 

Also, like many assessments from the past they are very culturally biased.  If you follow the link I provided, and look at the 11th grade ELA performance task, it asks students to assume the role of a reporter (my students don't read the news in newspapers or anywhere else for that matter), and research the topic of how public art should be funded - publicly or privately? It asks them to pretend they're going to a city council meeting (assuming civic engagement).  My kids don't know or care anything about this topic, but there's a community of kids not far from here who actually would have great background on this topic.  That would put my kids at a distinct disadvantage in addition to their skill defeceit. 

ETA: I don't only teach English Language Learners.  Even my "regular'' students would not do well with this.

gooseberry is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:37 PM
 
Polliwog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,999
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanma View Post

My dd2 goes to a title 1 elementary school. About 25-30% of the students are from non-English speaking families and about 50% of the kids receive Free and Reduced Lunch. Again, Common Core is a non-issue at our school. Our district is also the top performing district in the state and one of the best funded because our town has higher taxes that go to the schools (very progressive area). 

There are a LOT of things I would do differently about public schools in general, but I really like dd2's school and for the most part am very happy with the teachers and admin there. 

I'm not a big proponent of Common Core, but I don't think it's a death knell for public education. I'm sure something else will come along in another decade. 

North Carolina (my state) adopted Common Core in 2010 and did the first Common Core specific testing last year. It wasn't any more testing than they had pre-Common Core, but just different. Scores did go down as predicted because overall the schools in the state had not been covering the material in the way it was presented on the test. Our district did the best in the state. 

It is beyond ridiculous to call "The Bluest Eye" pornographic. It's a Nobel Prize winning work of literature. 

As I have probably posted up thread, beanma and I are in the same school district. We each have a child in a public school and a child in a charter school. Her school has been a Title 1 school, ours just became one because of redistricting. I'm not sure of our school's low income percentages, but I'd be surprised if it were more than 50%. We now have a large group of English Language Learners, mostly Burmese/Karen refugees.

DS is in 3rd grade. I know they are frequently assessed, but there's not a lot of standardized testing and the kids don't seem stressed out. There's still a lot of fun and hands on learning. Our school generally doesn't use textbooks other than in math.

DD is in 1st grade in a charter school. They do no formal testing other than the mandated end of year tests for grades 3-5 and the new beginning of the year test for 3rd grade.
Polliwog is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:44 PM
 
Polliwog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,999
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slbrooks View Post

The problem is that this is just the beginning. It's only going to get worse we must stand up and fight for our children. It's called corporativism I believe. This was all started by corporations and the government is dishing it out slowly and "explaining" it to parents. Parents need to wake up. We need to care more than just that our kids are shipped off to school. This is REALLY scary stuff. We have to have our children opt out of tests! If your kid is going to take a standardized test check out how you can opt them out. Read Kris Nielsen's books or find your local/state facebook page against the common core or other websites against the common core and support us caring grassroots organizations. We care about the kids!

http://www.corestandards.org/resources/frequently-asked-questions The FAQs in this link do not support this.
Polliwog is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:57 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooseberry View Post

Do students in your 10th grade class who read on a 4th grade level have IEPs? 

Some of them do.  Some are dual-identified.  The majority of it, however, is because they are English Language Learners.  Their conversational English is fine, for the most part, but their reading and writing are so far below grade level.

Did your students take an assessment in previous years?   

There was another simulation done last year when they were 9th graders.  It also did not go well.

From your perspective, is CC an extension of other standards or does it feel like a different animal? 

I just think, from an English Language Arts standpoint (at the high school level), that it represents more rigor.  For college bound students I think it's fine.  I like how it asks them to digest sources and develop a claim that they support with evidence.  Those are skills needed at the college level that our current standards don't even begin to address.  There's nothing in this movement, however, to address the needs of students who don't enter K "ready" and who enter high school 4-6 grade levels behind in reading.  How are we supposed to help them.

 

Also, like many assessments from the past they are very culturally biased.  If you follow the link I provided, and look at the 11th grade ELA performance task, it asks students to assume the role of a reporter (my students don't read the news in newspapers or anywhere else for that matter), and research the topic of how public art should be funded - publicly or privately? It asks them to pretend they're going to a city council meeting (assuming civic engagement).  My kids don't know or care anything about this topic, but there's a community of kids not far from here who actually would have great background on this topic.  That would put my kids at a distinct disadvantage in addition to their skill defece

Please excuse the devils advocate perspective that I've adopted on this thread... Mainly I'm interested to learn how CC is perceived for other parents and educators because like other members it's been a sort of non-issue in my circle. 

 

When you say that CC doesn't address the needs of kids who are 4-6 grade levels behind - how do you mean this?  Is there an expectation that CC addresses this or do you think it's possible that CC was created with the assumption that other laws and accommodations would continue to address these needs?  As an educator, do you feel more hindered in meeting the needs of your students now with CC or is it more that CC hasn't helped. I know that with the dollars and effort going to CC it's frustrating to think that it isn't helping all kids but I do see a big difference in CC helping some and not others and CC helping some and hindering others, yk?  

 

Along those same lines... cultural bias on testing seems like something that is a reality for school and something to improve (as with all other challenges with testing). But, do you feel that it's worse with CC?  

 

I think my DC has had her curriculum adapted for CC but I am not aware of any testing that has been different because of CC. Maybe that's still coming down the pike. We're also at a new school though so any new testing procedures will just be new to us. 

 

My DC's old school took an interesting approach to testing -- they just taught based on their own values about education for most weeks of the year. Then like two weeks before testing they did prep and they were pretty transparent about that. Then they tested and then got back to regular academics. I never liked that...but I thought it as a good enough compromise considering that part of me feels like I get where folks are coming from with testing. 

 

But, that gets ugly in our city because testing is complicated because one never quite knows HOW schools approach the relationship between testing and education. AND then they end up using test scores in ways that are important to kids (like getting into magnet schools).  

 

Very complicated, for sure. 

 

What's hard to make out as a parent (especially with some of these links going around) is what is unique to CC and what is just your run-of-the-mill half-assed attempt to improve schools cuz' folks in charge can't or won't deal with the real issues the obstruct education and overall quality of life in our country. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 07:04 PM
 
beanma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: with the dustbunnies & sugar beans
Posts: 8,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)

Here are some sample 8th grade Common Core EOG test questions:

 

From eighth-grade science test

Which statement best explains how periods on the periodic table are organized?

A. increasing atomic number from left to right

B. increasing number of neutrons from left to right

C. decreasing number of electrons from left to right

D. decreasing atomic mass number from left to right

From eighth-grade math test

When 8 is added to the number that is produced by doubling the number x, the result is equal to 8 times the number that is 5 less than x. What is the value of x?

 

Source: N.C. State Board of Education


Mamatreehugger.gif to two girl beans, Feb 2001hearts.gif and Nov 2003coolshine.gif . DH geek.gif, and two crazydog2.gifdog2.gif . Running on biodiesel since 2004!
 
"All you fascists are bound to lose" — Woody Guthrie
beanma is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 07:28 PM
 
gooseberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
 

 

When you say that CC doesn't address the needs of kids who are 4-6 grade levels behind - how do you mean this?  Is there an expectation that CC addresses this or do you think it's possible that CC was created with the assumption that other laws and accommodations would continue to address these needs? I don't expect the CC to address this because they are simply a set of standards.  My state has adopted them, and they are more rigorous, yet my state is doing nothing to address the fact that they've upped the challenge for many students.  That is the fault of state governments. As an educator, do you feel more hindered in meeting the needs of your students now with CC or is it more that CC hasn't helped. I'm getting a clearer picture all the time of what we're shooting for, and what my kids need to work on, but I have no idea how we're going to get there in the give timeframe.  My school has 4 years to help kids move 6-8 grades in skills/abilities/knowledge. I know that with the dollars and effort going to CC it's frustrating to think that it isn't helping all kids but I do see a big difference in CC helping some and not others and CC helping some and hindering others, yk?  

 

Along those same lines... cultural bias on testing seems like something that is a reality for school and something to improve (as with all other challenges with testing). But, do you feel that it's worse with CC?  It was just really striking to me in the example from that test.  My kids don't have any background knowledge on a topic like that.  Their parents don't participate in society in those ways (newspapers, city council meetings, public art), and that's true of both my Latino students and my white students.  Yet, as I said, there's another local community in a neighboring city where families do all of those things.  The city is even known for it's public art.  I simply am astounded that after all of the flack that's been given to the SAT and other tests about bias that anyone in 2013 would write that scenario!

 

I think my DC has had her curriculum adapted for CC but I am not aware of any testing that has been different because of CC. Maybe that's still coming down the pike. We're also at a new school though so any new testing procedures will just be new to us.  At the high school level, we haven't started official testing yet.  Next year's juniors are the first group.  I'm not that familiar with what's been going on in lower grades.

 

My DC's old school took an interesting approach to testing -- they just taught based on their own values about education for most weeks of the year. Then like two weeks before testing they did prep and they were pretty transparent about that. Then they tested and then got back to regular academics. I never liked that...but I thought it as a good enough compromise considering that part of me feels like I get where folks are coming from with testing. 

 

But, that gets ugly in our city because testing is complicated because one never quite knows HOW schools approach the relationship between testing and education. AND then they end up using test scores in ways that are important to kids (like getting into magnet schools).  

 

Very complicated, for sure. 

 

What's hard to make out as a parent (especially with some of these links going around) is what is unique to CC and what is just your run-of-the-mill half-assed attempt to improve schools cuz' folks in charge can't or won't deal with the real issues the obstruct education and overall quality of life in our country. I think most of this isn't really about CC.  It's about all of the other things you just mentioned.  It just stings more because the standards are so high.  

 

I'm just learning about this from the standpoint of a parent.  My oldest is in K this year.  Some criticisms that I've heard are that the expectations for the very young kids are not just high, but they're developmentally inappropriate.  I've also heard, and have absolutely no verification on this, that there were no early educators on the planning committee.  That's something I need to find out about.  It wouldn't surprise me, though.

gooseberry is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 11:01 PM
 
One_Girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
 

 

Common core is a bit of an octopus -- are you talking about ALL math from k-algebra II, and have you reviewed the text books and testing methodologies for all those levels? I haven't, but I did review the Algebra II book and I agree with the teacher -- it's crap.

 

Our best and brightest kids attending our best schools already do very well in math. Common core was theoretically designed to decrease the performance gap between our high achieving schools and our low achieving schools. There really wasn't a need to jerk around schools like the one where my DD attends.

 

Remember than nothing about common core has been tested -- the texts haven't been tested, the tests haven't been tested. Its all a big experiment.

 

and another thing -- common core requires all students complete Algebra II to graduate from highschool. So either Algebra II isn't going to be what it used to be, or lots of kids will not graduate highschool because ---  not everyone's brain works in the ways required to do Algebra II.

 

In many states, common core is taking what was already nutty and making it far, far worse. More testing for more grades, longer tests, formative standardized tests to make sure they will do well on the end of year test, testing for Kindergarteners, and even..... weekly standardized tests to make sure kids are learning what they are supposed to.

 

And the cut scores!!!! These are completely arbitrary with common core but higher than expected in the past. Tests scores are expected to drop by about 30%. Lots more kids will be deemed to be not where they should be. I honestly would be surprised if you got a straight answer out of an administrator. This is very top down, and not being gun hoe about it could reflect very poorly on an administrator. If you try to find out what they think, ask sideways questions such as how much additional time is needed for formative assessments, or how are the addresses english language learners. I wouldn't bother asking "what do you think of common core?"


I have actually reviewed the standards for K-8 and taken two graduate level courses and one professional development course specifically geared towards educating children in math using the CC standards.  As of the beginning of the school year there actually weren't textbooks specifically for CC so a lot of the problems right now are in the different ways teachers interpret how to implement standards.  I think that once we have textbooks that are clearly designed to meet CC standards there will be less confusion.  I think that giving it a couple years would have made a lot more sense because this is a big shift in the way education is done and the lack of clear standards means uneven implementation where you have a situation in which some schools are using very poor material compared to what they were before while other schools are using much better materials.  Requiring professional development courses and high quality material before implementing these very new standards would have been a much better idea imo.

 

In our state test scores will definitely go down because the new standards are much more rigorous but test scores aren't used to place children in classes or for any purpose other than to comply with NCLB.  Our state is very close to the bottom when it comes to education so I have no problem with better standards and lower initial scores as teachers shift from busy work to actual work.  This is how it would have been anyways because our state has been moving towards improving math education in these ways for about seven years now.  The CC standards just formalized the process.

 

Our testing requirements are staying the same, just with a different test being administered so I think this is also a variable thing that is decided by the Department of Education in individual states, not something mandated by CC.  Algebra 1 has been a requirement for all children to graduate in my state so I am fine taking it a step further and requiring Algebra 2 if that is what our state does.  The standards are designed to give a deeper understanding of math, as opposed to the terribly shallow understanding kids get now, so Algebra 2 should be a good minimum.

 

There is also no law saying a state has to use CC. It was listed as an example of acceptable standards in one law but it isn't a mandatory thing so bringing your complaints or concerns to your state Department of Education and your legislature is a good idea. 

One_Girl is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:59 AM
 
slbrooks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Do you know what the charter schools are and what Teach for America is about? Do you know that they are closing schools in New Jersey and Chicaago? Of course a FAQ directly from the common core is not going to tell the truth. Did you read the entire math article I posted? I told you to look into BOOKS!!!! Do you know our politicians here in NY are lying to us! Do you know that it's the major corporations supporting this. Have you looked into Pearson, Walmart, even Disney???? Yes the common core standards may look okay at first glance but do you want to spend all the money to even buy the books to read that your 3rd grader is reading? I looked into it and don't want to spend that kind of money. Now they are asking our schools to spend that money! With what! Our schools are going to close and it's going to be Teach for America which is teach to test/assessment/diebels! Get informed!
slbrooks is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 05:03 AM
 
slbrooks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The Bluest Eye is not an innocent book it's actually kind of depressing and it does have sexual content in it. Have you read it?
slbrooks is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 05:10 AM
 
slbrooks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I notice that there are a lot of words that the common core tries to use to get us on board with the common core in this post. Here they are rigorous, college ready. Those are two I notice off the bat. Are you really buying what they are throwing at you??? Are you doing any critical thinking yourself???? If all parents knew what this really was they would ALL be against it if they want what is best for their children that is. At least that is my hope. What Pearson wants is us to buy their books and get rich off this common core thing. They are one of the big supporters along with Microsoft, Oracle and other companies. Do we want to live in a country that is just preparing our children to work in companies that hire overseas anyway? Do we want to live in a country where are children are being trained to work for less money?
slbrooks is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 05:49 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

Brooks, you just ain't gonna get far with your movement if you are going at it by implying that all these thoughtful parents and educators in this discussion are not critical thinkers (and other subtle implications in your posts). You're frustrated - that comes across but given the level of information in the links you've provided and the level of involvement you have in your child's school, I don't think your focus should be on what other people are reading or doing for education. 

 

Engage here, Brooks. As well as there being an elevated level of conversation from what I've seen on your links, there's plenty of fodder for your anti-CC crusade. 

 

Off to read what an educator and parent who has also taken masters level classes in CC has to say on the subject....


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 06:11 AM
 
Polliwog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,999
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slbrooks View Post

Do you know what the charter schools are and what Teach for America is about? Do you know that they are closing schools in New Jersey and Chicaago? Of course a FAQ directly from the common core is not going to tell the truth. Did you read the entire math article I posted? I told you to look into BOOKS!!!! Do you know our politicians here in NY are lying to us! Do you know that it's the major corporations supporting this. Have you looked into Pearson, Walmart, even Disney???? Yes the common core standards may look okay at first glance but do you want to spend all the money to even buy the books to read that your 3rd grader is reading? I looked into it and don't want to spend that kind of money. Now they are asking our schools to spend that money! With what! Our schools are going to close and it's going to be Teach for America which is teach to test/assessment/diebels! Get informed!

Whoa, Nellie. I am an educator, and am very involved in my daughter's charter school. They are very transparent and parent participation is a huge part of the program. I volunteer in my daughter's first grade two half days a week and substitute teach when asked. This is NOT a for-profit charter school. In fact, one of those tried to open this year, and there was huge opposition and the company ultimately pulled out.

My third grader reads BOOKS. Yes, I want the school to spend money buying those. They don't use basal readers, so the money is spent on actual books. Money well spent, IMO.

I am a very critical thinker, thank you very much.
Polliwog is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 06:56 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

I'm enjoying this conversation. How far I've come from when it first got posted and I had first heard of CC from my DC's school and assumed it was a curriculum change!  I especially like that we have educators and parents with some diverse experiences. Part of me cringes when I see children with disabilities or children living with poverty or other disadvantaging conditions trotted out in a political debate. I know for a fact that willingness to use this sort of thing for political gain has nothing to do with actual level of concern or interest in helping improve education for these kids. BUT, it's an important part of the discussion so when we can have it with parents and educators, it's really nice to be able to open up to these considerations. 

 

GB, I'm sure we have some schools in my city with a large number of students performing below grade level. I agree with you 100% that changing standards doesn't matter in the absence of support for meeting needs.  I read a few criticisms of CC in that regard. It appears that state and federal answers to that were "Oh, you should have money in your budget for teacher development anyway, so just use that for CC."  I *have* seen that in my DC's schools. It seems like her schools do a lot of work over the summers, for instance. If there is no big curriculum thing to address, they do another big project with the time, money, and energy they have allotted for the summer work. BUT, these are relatively fortunate schools. 

 

I read your example of bias in the testing. One thing that struck me is that I wonder if the testing assumes that education about the news isn't part of the school day for students of that age. I'm not arguing that there isn't bias in testing but my own DC doesn't get much news at home (we don't watch news on TV or get the paper -- probably like lots of people these days) but news and staying informed is a big part of her requirements for social studies. I was at a school meeting, even, and there was a wonderful discussion btw. the teacher and a parent who did not want her child to read the news. There is def. a great deal of diversity in terms of what parents want their kids exposed to in school.... but part of me thinks it's an ok aspect of public education to set some of these standards. For instance, the concept of recycling could be perceived as a culturally biased one in my city. There are students in my DC's class who only learn about recycling and other environmental issues at school. Do we look at having a topic on recycling in testing as a source for bias or do we decide that environmental education is part of the body of work that kids do at school?  

 

One_Girl -- I am so surprised the way my DC's test scores are used for things other than evaluating her education. It's really shocking, actually. They are used to place students in magnet programs at other public schools, they are used to place kids in tract programs within schools. They are even used to qualify kids for private programs at universities and etc. That is something I've always thought was out of bounds. I wonder how this will play out for kids in those years that things are a bit fuzzy for testing in a city that relies heavily on testing. Maybe my city will take a more gradual approach to changing tests?  I don't know but this is good food for thought! 

 

I wonder about materials and teacher training. Do most schools (especially for math) subscribe to some sort of curriculum program? As I think more about how my DC's school was able to shift to CC w/o too much disruption, I think part of that may be that they had a curriculum that they used and it was the curriculum developers doing the major work for adapting to CC. If it's a matter of going deeper in to material, teachers have to learn to do that but aren't learning new material to teach -- rather ways to pull kids in more, ways to facilitate discussion?  


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 08:07 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

Also, on the subject of testing. Not only are tests used for a variety of things in our city making them important in ways that they really shouldn't be but we also deal with the issue of different schools approaching teaching and testing in different ways. Some schools flat-out REFUSE to teach to the test. Some probably do teach to the test quite a bit and of course there's everywhere in between. This makes testing such a complicated issue even if, like me, a person is OK with testing students as some base for evaluating their education.  

 

Reading this discussion it occurs to me that there will be another way that testing fails to accurately evaluate the effectiveness of CC (at least in the short run) is that there are some schools in our district that are already teaching in such a way that CC will come easily to them. Those kids and those schools will show less of a dip in test scores and our system will experience some imbalance until other schools make the transition. 

 

Knowing which schools already teach according to some of the supposed values of CC, I will be watching test scores closely if/when our city makes some big changes to testing. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 08:55 AM
 
chickabiddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,435
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)

Yes, I do want my school to spend money to buy books, and if the school can't/won't, I certainly will.  This is not a problem to me.  Neither is an 11th grade book being "depressing" or containing sexual content.


Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
chickabiddy is online now  
Old 01-02-2014, 09:14 AM
 
chickabiddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,435
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slbrooks View Post
Are you doing any critical thinking yourself???? If all parents knew what this really was they would ALL be against it if they want what is best for their children that is. At least that is my hope.

 

This is not the way to win friends and influence people.  I do know what Common Core is and I'm not at all against it.

 

If your school is not meeting your child's needs, it's not Common Core's fault.  First you complain that it's too rigorous (for your kindergartener) and then you complain that it's not rigorous enough.

 

You are just throwing out Tea Party talking points.


Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
chickabiddy is online now  
Old 01-02-2014, 10:22 AM
 
Polliwog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,999
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post

Also, on the subject of testing. Not only are tests used for a variety of things in our city making them important in ways that they really shouldn't be but we also deal with the issue of different schools approaching teaching and testing in different ways. Some schools flat-out REFUSE to teach to the test. Some probably do teach to the test quite a bit and of course there's everywhere in between. This makes testing such a complicated issue even if, like me, a person is OK with testing students as some base for evaluating their education.  

Reading this discussion it occurs to me that there will be another way that testing fails to accurately evaluate the effectiveness of CC (at least in the short run) is that there are some schools in our district that are already teaching in such a way that CC will come easily to them. Those kids and those schools will show less of a dip in test scores and our system will experience some imbalance until other schools make the transition. 

Knowing which schools already teach according to some of the supposed values of CC, I will be watching test scores closely if/when our city makes some big changes to testing. 

Last year, every school subject got new standards. Every one including art, music, physical education, science, etc. the others were created/modified at state level. The district (and possibly the state) spent the prior year training teachers and having teachers work in their professional learning communities. Our school had already been using a math curriculum that was pretty CC-friendly. My daughter's charter continued to use the same type of math program they had been using, for grades 3-5. They will switch to the program (Bridges Math) that the K-2 classes have already been using. It's a good program and pretty game-based. My first grader loves it. She gets homework once every few weeks.
Polliwog is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 10:45 AM
 
One_Girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
 

I'm enjoying this conversation. How far I've come from when it first got posted and I had first heard of CC from my DC's school and assumed it was a curriculum change!  I especially like that we have educators and parents with some diverse experiences. Part of me cringes when I see children with disabilities or children living with poverty or other disadvantaging conditions trotted out in a political debate. I know for a fact that willingness to use this sort of thing for political gain has nothing to do with actual level of concern or interest in helping improve education for these kids. BUT, it's an important part of the discussion so when we can have it with parents and educators, it's really nice to be able to open up to these considerations. 

 

GB, I'm sure we have some schools in my city with a large number of students performing below grade level. I agree with you 100% that changing standards doesn't matter in the absence of support for meeting needs.  I read a few criticisms of CC in that regard. It appears that state and federal answers to that were "Oh, you should have money in your budget for teacher development anyway, so just use that for CC."  I *have* seen that in my DC's schools. It seems like her schools do a lot of work over the summers, for instance. If there is no big curriculum thing to address, they do another big project with the time, money, and energy they have allotted for the summer work. BUT, these are relatively fortunate schools. 

 

I read your example of bias in the testing. One thing that struck me is that I wonder if the testing assumes that education about the news isn't part of the school day for students of that age. I'm not arguing that there isn't bias in testing but my own DC doesn't get much news at home (we don't watch news on TV or get the paper -- probably like lots of people these days) but news and staying informed is a big part of her requirements for social studies. I was at a school meeting, even, and there was a wonderful discussion btw. the teacher and a parent who did not want her child to read the news. There is def. a great deal of diversity in terms of what parents want their kids exposed to in school.... but part of me thinks it's an ok aspect of public education to set some of these standards. For instance, the concept of recycling could be perceived as a culturally biased one in my city. There are students in my DC's class who only learn about recycling and other environmental issues at school. Do we look at having a topic on recycling in testing as a source for bias or do we decide that environmental education is part of the body of work that kids do at school?  

 

One_Girl -- I am so surprised the way my DC's test scores are used for things other than evaluating her education. It's really shocking, actually. They are used to place students in magnet programs at other public schools, they are used to place kids in tract programs within schools. They are even used to qualify kids for private programs at universities and etc. That is something I've always thought was out of bounds. I wonder how this will play out for kids in those years that things are a bit fuzzy for testing in a city that relies heavily on testing. Maybe my city will take a more gradual approach to changing tests?  I don't know but this is good food for thought! 

 

I wonder about materials and teacher training. Do most schools (especially for math) subscribe to some sort of curriculum program? As I think more about how my DC's school was able to shift to CC w/o too much disruption, I think part of that may be that they had a curriculum that they used and it was the curriculum developers doing the major work for adapting to CC. If it's a matter of going deeper in to material, teachers have to learn to do that but aren't learning new material to teach -- rather ways to pull kids in more, ways to facilitate discussion?  

 

I don't know about training country wide but in my state they started requiring teachers to take a professional development class to learn how to teach the way CC now requires about five years ago, they piloted the class before that.  The class is free and is offered in several locations statewide, especially in the summer.  The professors who teach the class invite people to email or call with questions about implementation and from what I have heard they are very helpful.  They are very dedicated to improving math education. 

 

Most schools have  math program they go with, several have been approved by the state and public schools choose those.  The textbook companies have started putting in how something can link to CC and activities for CC but haven't specifically created textbooks to CC standards.  Right now they have to pull material in from different sources to meet the standards.  Pulling in different material to go deeper into math is time consuming but not difficult.  Facilitating math discussions that are meaningful, learning to balance traditional and new methods for teaching math, and pulling kids in (especially after they have had years of not having a deep understanding of math) are actually the difficult tasks.  Teachers are often very tied to one method and resist having to change.  I myself was horrified when I took my first math methods class and learned that we were moving in this direction.  It is such a radically different way to teach math in our country and change is hard.  It took time and more education for me to put my resistance to change aside and really listen to what was being taught.  Now I am very excited about it and pursuing a math consulting teacher endorsement so I can help implement it. 

One_Girl is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 01:10 PM
 
moominmamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In the middle of nowhere, at the centre of everything.
Posts: 5,808
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Girl View Post
 

I myself was horrified when I took my first math methods class and learned that we were moving in this direction.  It is such a radically different way to teach math in our country and change is hard.  It took time and more education for me to put my resistance to change aside and really listen to what was being taught.  Now I am very excited about it and pursuing a math consulting teacher endorsement so I can help implement it. 

 

I'm a homeschooling parent (for ~K-8) and my kids have gone to school after that, and we live in Canada, so Common Core isn't relevant to me and mine. But I happen to be a bit of a math pedagogy geek, and I really love what you are saying here. Your excitement about learning new things and putting them into practice, your open-mindedness, your interest in developing a deeper understanding of basic math, that's what will save math education. I think teacher enthusiasm for the pedagogical process is the biggest predictor of students' success in math. I was a product of the "New Math" of the post-Sputnik panic over western STEM education, and I lucked into a couple of teachers who had the same kind of enthusiasm that you're voicing and could really see the intent and the potential of the approach. While that particular pedagogical approach was overall a huge flop, it worked brilliantly for me and my group of elementary school peers. 

 

Miranda


Mountain mama to two great kids and two great grown-ups
moominmamma is online now  
Old 01-02-2014, 03:03 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
 

Yes, I do want my school to spend money to buy books, and if the school can't/won't, I certainly will.  This is not a problem to me.  Neither is an 11th grade book being "depressing" or containing sexual content.

This is so interesting to me in terms of how this topic intersects with small government folks. On the one hand people would like the "keep schools local" but on the other hand, when a teacher puts a book on a reading list that somebody doesn't like...there is this suggestion that "something needs to be done about this". Makes me wonder, "which is it? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

 

Your excitement about learning new things and putting them into practice, your open-mindedness, your interest in developing a deeper understanding of basic math, that's what will save math education. I think teacher enthusiasm for the pedagogical process is the biggest predictor of students' success in math. I was a product of the "New Math" of the post-Sputnik panic over western STEM education, and I lucked into a couple of teachers who had the same kind of enthusiasm that you're voicing and could really see the intent and the potential of the approach. While that particular pedagogical approach was overall a huge flop, it worked brilliantly for me and my group of elementary school peers. 

 

Miranda

I totally agree!!   

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Girl View Post
 

Facilitating math discussions that are meaningful, learning to balance traditional and new methods for teaching math, and pulling kids in (especially after they have had years of not having a deep understanding of math) are actually the difficult tasks.  

Yes, I'm sure it is and I hope my comments above didn't come off as dissing this effort. What I guess I was getting at is that if professional development is part of the job description that I thought maybe some of that can be reserved for teaching in this way. I will admit to being pretty ignorant about what goes into ongoing teacher training. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polliwog View Post


Last year, every school subject got new standards. Every one including art, music, physical education, science, etc. the others were created/modified at state level. The district (and possibly the state) spent the prior year training teachers and having teachers work in their professional learning communities. Our school had already been using a math curriculum that was pretty CC-friendly. My daughter's charter continued to use the same type of math program they had been using, for grades 3-5. They will switch to the program (Bridges Math) that the K-2 classes have already been using. It's a good program and pretty game-based. My first grader loves it. She gets homework once every few weeks.

This is similar to the impression I get from my DC's elementary. That the teachers were receiving on-going training and had several years of seeing this trend coming and were proactive in moving slowly towards change. This school also does not offer any HW to kids. They cite Alphie Kohn but part of me thinks it may be more of what LotM talks about in terms of inequality when kids are expected to get lots of help at home. 

 

Along those same lines, poverty is an issue in my city so no child is ever required to provide supplies. There are some suggested donations for families but that's it. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polliwog View Post

Her school has been a Title 1 school, ours just became one because of redistricting. I'm not sure of our school's low income percentages, but I'd be surprised if it were more than 50%. 

This is another good point. Since the topic of Title 1 has been brought up and also the issue of funding and how to address issues of poverty, it would be interesting to talk a little about how schools get a Title 1 label.  I remember reading that the lowest percentage of students with FARMs receiving Title 1 assistance in my city is something like 70%. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 03:54 PM
 
beanma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: with the dustbunnies & sugar beans
Posts: 8,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data#USA/2/8/10,11,12,13,14,15 (Annie E Casey Foundation Kids Count Data Center) and http://projects.propublica.org/schools/ (Pro Publica) have data about free and reduced meal percentages at schools across the country. I used the Annie E Casey data since it was more recent than the Pro Publica data.


Mamatreehugger.gif to two girl beans, Feb 2001hearts.gif and Nov 2003coolshine.gif . DH geek.gif, and two crazydog2.gifdog2.gif . Running on biodiesel since 2004!
 
"All you fascists are bound to lose" — Woody Guthrie
beanma is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 03:58 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanma View Post
 

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data#USA/2/8/10,11,12,13,14,15 (Annie E Casey Foundation Kids Count Data Center) and http://projects.propublica.org/schools/ (Pro Publica) have data about free and reduced meal percentages at schools across the country. I used the Annie E Casey data since it was more recent than the Pro Publica data.

Cool!  I'm always digging around on my school website. Very useful! 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:11 PM
 
slbrooks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To me critical thinking means you check to see if something is true. So why don't you give it a shot and examine Kris Nielsen's book. I'm not happy with the attacks to me either. I am frustrated only because I think every parent in this country should read Kris Nielsen's book and join the cause to stop child abuse to come to our schools in the form of more tests and God knows what else! Common core is corporatism at it's finest and if we don't fight it now then it won't be able to be fought and America is destroyed. I was thinking at work today maybe they want to destroy America this way to keep the minorities out.
slbrooks is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 04:46 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slbrooks View Post

To me critical thinking means you check to see if something is true. So why don't you give it a shot and examine Kris Nielsen's book. 

I just read an article by Nielsen called "I quit!" It doesn't inspire me to want to read his book but if you'd like to post some of his source material used in the book, perhaps we could have a look at that. 

 

ETA: I'm not saying that Nielsen is a bad dude. Not at all. A brief look into what he values in education seems to align well with what I think is good with education. But, it looks to me like things were great for him in a system that valued a lot of the same things that CC seems to value and that he came to blame CC for the problems he saw after retirement (after only 6 years).  Similarly to the other teacher you posted an article by, there seems to be this odd way of conflating CC with broader concerns for education. 

 

There is common  ground here -- but just not in where I'm willing to place all the blame. The reality is that if you don't like standardization and testing school was NOT perfect before CC.  

 

Here is his bio from another article: 

Quote:
 Kris L. Nielsen has been a middle grades educator for six years in New Mexico, Oregon, and North Carolina. After watching the field of education change in appalling ways, he decided to start blogging about how teachers and principals can create positive change in their own classrooms and schools. Kris is an activist against the bipartisan, corporate education reforms and has had his writing featured in several online magazines and blogs. Kris currently lives in North Carolina, where he is working on his first book, Maximizing the Middle: Rethinking Middle Level Education in the 21st Century.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
 

Tags
Popular On Mothering In 2013 , Education Discussions , Education , School
User Tag List

Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off