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#121 of 140 Old 09-05-2013, 06:04 PM
 
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 A woman would tend to be more impressed with a man being an aerospace engineeeing than an MTA subway car cleaner. Same man would be talked to differently and afforded a different amount of respect and stature than the subway car cleaner. There is a reason why the beauty industry is STILL a billion dollar industry and the male virility and "manly man" success market has exploded.

 

Woman in aerospace are also treated with respect. (honestly, a lot of respect -- people tend assume they are even smarter than the boys). You are comparing social class/education, not gender.

 

Men spend more money every year on how they look. They also have pressure to look certain ways for certain jobs -- my colorist and I were discussing this. She has a number of male clients who have her touch up their grey without covering all of it -- they feel a little grey makes them look wise, but a lot of grey makes them look old. They come in more often than her female clients because they wear their hair shorter and therefore growth is more obvious. 

 

I don't live on the east coast and haven't been there in years, however, if what you are saying is true about where you live, then it isn't very liberal. Go west! Really far west! But don't tell me I'm naive about where I live. It's insulting, and you don't even know where I live, so you can't know how wrong you are.  disappointed.gif


but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#122 of 140 Old 09-05-2013, 08:33 PM
 
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I remember when I was growing up that everyone was always judged by what they were wearing and that if we had uniforms it would be so much easier. I still think that. If our kids had to wear uniforms, I think there would be less bullying and people wouldn't be as mean to others based on what they were wearing.
 

 

Having been at a private school with uniforms, there is still judgement based on clothing.  Shoes, bags, jewelry, whatever.  I'm not sure it makes a huge difference.  I do like uniforms, because they are easy.  

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#123 of 140 Old 09-05-2013, 08:41 PM
 
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Hmmmm.  I am nearly 50 but in high school, I wore shorts that were so short my butt hung out of them.  I did.  I wore teeny bikinis and tube tops and skin tight jeans.  Fashion has not changed, I think perhaps some of our perspectives have changed as we age.  I was a virgin and never even kissed a boy until I was in college.  To hear that I might as well have been dancing on a table makes me sick.  I was just a normal teenage girl with bad fashion sense, a very small clothing budget, reading seventeen and tiger beat and trying to wear the latest fashions of the disco era.  That does not make me a stripper - just a normal high school kid, which is what I think most of those shocking big public high school girls are.  Give them all a break.  
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#124 of 140 Old 09-05-2013, 09:25 PM
 
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 To hear that I might as well have been dancing on a table makes me sick.

 

I didn't say that.

 

I said that some of girls who attend my DD's school dress like exotic dancers. I didn't say anything about YOU, and I didn't say that those girls might as well have been dancing on tables.

 

Since they don't have the sense to wear clothing that is actually outer-wear and their parents can't be bothered to teach them how to dress so they don't look like sex workers, I think it would be VERY reasonable for the school to do so.

 

I'm 48, and these girls aren't dressed like people dressed in the late 70s/early 80s. Really. I feel like I need to post photos of half naked teens to make the point.


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#125 of 140 Old 09-05-2013, 11:01 PM
 
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I support uniforms for p.schools, not only for the students but for everyone who is part of that campus. This also makes sense from a security standpoint whereby outsiders can easily stand-out.

 

Are high school girls really wearing skimpy clothes for comfort? I am just disappointed that it's 2013 and young girls still think that such displays add worth to their sense of self.  By the same token, I find cheerleading to be a demeaning thing for young girls to do. Play the sport rather than dance on the sidelines in skimpy outfits to provide nothing more than decorative 'cheer'.

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#126 of 140 Old 09-06-2013, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think girls dress more skimpy than they did when I was in high school in the 80s either. There was a style to wear a ridiculously short denim skirt, and it was a very popular style. We weren't allowed to wear shorts of any length, but anything was OK as far as skirts went. And then of course there was the whole Madonna look. I don't think girls dress worse.I think we're just older and notice it differently than we did when we were young.

My only real problem with the dress code is that it says outright that the reason girls can't wear shorter shorts or tank tops or short skirts is because it will distract the boys. I don't think that should be placed on the girls' shoulders like that. The boys are in charge of themselves. They could have the same exact dress code and not include that wording and I'd be fine with it.

Or they could just have uniforms and not have any issue about length of shorts.
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#127 of 140 Old 09-06-2013, 09:10 AM
 
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I agree that boys do need to be held accountable for their choices, but being distracted by a girl in skimpy clothing is not a fully voluntary thing. Men's brains are biologically wired to be aroused by female nudity. Women's brains don't react the same way to male nudity, and I think sometimes we as women underestimate how strong these biology-based feelings are, because we don't experience something similar.

 

And lest I be misunderstood, I DO think that boys/men can and should be held accountable for what they do with these instincts. Just because seeing a scantily-clad female arouses you does NOT mean that you're entitled to touch her, verbal harass her, or expect sexual favors from her. It doesn't even make it okay to continue staring at her. But to say that boys shouldn't be distracted by such things is like saying you shouldn't be distracted by being touched by hot metal - your body is wired to respond, and there's not much you can do to NOT notice.


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#128 of 140 Old 09-06-2013, 01:38 PM
 
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I do think that fashion tends to get a bit more relaxed and open as decades pass but I also agree that a lot of these things we're talking about aren't about modesty standards changing but just trends shifting.  I know know about you all but I'm relieved to see the low-rise trend pass, which gave us the "whale tail" effect that I imagine scandalized a lot of schools. ;-)  When I was a kid, belly shirts and minis-minis were all the rage. I'm seeing the belly shirts back, which I think are cute as can be! They go back a pretty long way. Certainly Catholic school girls rolling up their skirts to raise the hem goes back at least to the 50s. I can ask my grandmother how she scandalized her parents in the 30s next time I see her. So, yea, I think a good bit of this is that we're just getting older and the new styles are shocking. I don't know about you all but my plan is to just get used to it. ;-)  I plan on living a LONG time. 

 

Also, cultural. I had a German friend visiting this summer and she was shocked to see women in what she called "gym gear". I had to break it to her that yoga pants are the mom uniform in a large part of the US. She couldn't believe it. 


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#129 of 140 Old 09-07-2013, 03:21 PM
 
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I'm a big fan of uniforms. I was bummed to learn my son's charter school doesn't require them, although a sister school in the charter system does. I was really looking forward to it. 

 

Mostly what I like is taking the social pressure off the kids, and knowing for sure you won't be swamped with name brands and licensed characters. I also like the idea that school is different from home - wearing a uniform makes it kind of separate, like going to work. It gives it a bit of seriousness. (Not that I'm all about seriousness in schools - I just like the idea that it's a more orderly environment with different expectations.) 

 

Also, it makes back-to-school shopping really easy. ;)

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#130 of 140 Old 09-08-2013, 10:07 PM
 
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Uniforms create a sense of identity and belongingness :)! So, I go for school uniforms..

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#131 of 140 Old 10-03-2013, 09:44 AM
 
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I think my 13 year old dd, who has just started the 8th grade in a public high school that doesn't require a uniform, after homeschooling up to now (in an inner-city district where the vast majority of schools DO require uniforms), is learning some valuable things about having fun with clothes and feeling good about how she looks irregardless of whether some other girls in her class may happen to criticize her for not having as many pairs of shoes or different outfits, or designer outfits, as they do.

 

Dd loves picking out her own clothes, and one of her favorite things for the past couple of years has been, whenever we have an extra $10 or so that we can give her, going to a local thrift store and picking out a bunch of new t-shirts and jeans. She always picks out cute clothes that fit her really nicely and are flattering to her figure.

 

And though she doesn't like being criticized by girls who have even asked her things like "Girl, are you poor?" -- she has also commented that in a school where practically everyone is on the free lunch program just like she is, and is obviously in a similar economic situation to ours, it seems kind of stupid for some of the girls to be acting like it's so important to always be buying new shoes.

 

She actually received a nice jacket last Christmas from someone at church, and we didn't even realize it was "designer," until dd wore it to school one day recently and one of her classmates said something like, "Good for you! You finally took my advice and got something designer!"

 

Although dd loves accumulating new clothes and shoes as much as the next teen girl, she does think there are more important things, like being able to live in a home with her own family (she has a good friend who, as long as we've known her, has always had to live with different friends or relatives, sometimes with her parents, sometimes without them if the people were only willing or able to take in the kids; then the parents would live someplace else like their car or a tent and come visit them), and being able to turn on the shower each morning and have hot water. Thus far, we've never had to heat water on the stove in order to wash ourselves or our dishes because our gas was shut off, or, heaven forbid, had to go around asking neighbors for buckets of water, as neighbors have occasionally had to ask us for because they couldn't pay their water bill.

 

So it makes sense to dd that you take care of your basic needs first, and then if you have anything left you might buy a new outfit or a new pair of shoes. I do realize that the other "poor" girls at dd's school who always seem to have such expensive stuff may be finding good bargains or getting gifts from relatives, but I can't help wondering if some of their families are having to do without some things that our family considers to be basic necessities, in order to present the best possible face to the outside world.

 

And I'm glad that dd, in spite of naturally wanting to have more money to spend on clothes and shoes, is starting to recognize the importance of having your priorities in order. I think she's also learning to form her own opinion of herself and how she looks, and not to base her entire self-esteem on what others say about her clothes.

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#132 of 140 Old 10-17-2013, 03:43 AM
 
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Almost all schools - public & private in Hong Kong make the children wear uniforms. In many, the types of shoes are also monitored and in my DDs 2nd primary school even the hair-ties were limited (navy blue, black, or a check in the school uniform pattern  sold at the uniform shop).

 

It helps the kids because every morning, they know what they have to wear for school. It saves them time and effort. It helps the parents because it means spending less on clothes in general - because the kids wear their uniforms for most of the day, 5 days a week.

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#133 of 140 Old 10-19-2013, 11:13 PM
 
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As a parent of two children in public schools who is (very) low-income and lives in an extremely low-income neighborhood, I strongly dislike uniforms. And that seems to be the prevailing opinion around here. 

My children already have a set of presentable, appropriate clothing at home. We manage to get 95% of their clothing used. It is an enormous expense to get uniforms for the children. They are much harder to get (in decent condition) used. 


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#134 of 140 Old 10-20-2013, 05:05 AM
 
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As a parent of two children in public schools who is (very) low-income and lives in an extremely low-income neighborhood, I strongly dislike uniforms. And that seems to be the prevailing opinion around here.

My children already have a set of presentable, appropriate clothing at home. We manage to get 95% of their clothing used. It is an enormous expense to get uniforms for the children. They are much harder to get (in decent condition) used.

Our situation is very similar to yours and we are pretty happy about not needing to get uniforms. As I mentioned above, it is frankly quite easy for dd to find clothes that she likes, and that meet her school's dress code, very inexpensively at the thrift store. Since this is our first year of doing school, I really can't compare this with buying and maintaining uniforms, but I don't think wearing a uniform would be as much fun for dd. Even with some of the mean digs that I mentioned above, which simply prove that there is snobbery in every income level, dd is having a lot of fun expressing her personality through her clothes as well as her writing and everything she says and does.

 

I now feel very lucky that dd is in one of the few magnet schools in our district that don't require uniforms. I think all the comprehensive schools require them for younger kids, but not for high school students, and I think the other magnet and charter schools require them all the way through graduation, if I'm not mistaken.


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#135 of 140 Old 10-20-2013, 07:22 PM
 
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Our situation is very similar to yours and we are pretty happy about not needing to get uniforms. As I mentioned above, it is frankly quite easy for dd to find clothes that she likes, and that meet her school's dress code, very inexpensively at the thrift store. Since this is our first year of doing school, I really can't compare this with buying and maintaining uniforms, but I don't think wearing a uniform would be as much fun for dd. Even with some of the mean digs that I mentioned above, which simply prove that there is snobbery in every income level, dd is having a lot of fun expressing her personality through her clothes as well as her writing and everything she says and does.

 

I now feel very lucky that dd is in one of the few magnet schools in our district that don't require uniforms. I think all the comprehensive schools require them for younger kids, but not for high school students, and I think the other magnet and charter schools require them all the way through graduation, if I'm not mistaken.

My daughter is only in Head Start right now, so she has no uniforms at her school (which is a whole school from birth to 5.) But a lot of the early childhood programs in the city require uniforms (which I would think would be against Head Start policy because the policy states that the parents have to pay for NOTHING. No school supplies, lunches, etc.) Anyway, 63 of the 90 elementary schools in my district require uniforms, so who knows where we'll be 3 years from now.


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#136 of 140 Old 10-23-2013, 06:42 AM
 
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Where I live, most private schools have uniforms.  Most publicly funded Catholic schools have uniforms, and most publicly funded secular schools do not (exceptions apply).  I like it this way.  I like having  no-uniform option schools for those who do not like uniforms.  To each their own.

 

I will also say that school uniforms in this area do end up costing families more $.  The uniforms are not cheap, and kids who wear uniforms need uniforms plus after school clothes.  


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#137 of 140 Old 11-01-2013, 08:57 AM
 
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I'm completely opposed to uniforms.  I had to attend a horrible catholic school with uniforms as a kid and I hated them so much.  I still can't look at a certain shade of royal blue without getting hives.

 

It's public school.  If you want your kid to be a clone, send her to private school, complete with uniforms.  Our school has a very reasonable dress code.  I make my kids follow the dress code and we're good.  Yes, some parents don't enforce the dress code and some of the kids come to school wearing clothes I think are a little inappropriate.  That's life. 

 

It has never been a problem for my kids to figure out what to wear in the morning or all the other spurious arguments people come up with for uniforms.  And kids who are forced to wear uniforms certainly do figure out other ways to incorporate status symbols.

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#138 of 140 Old 11-01-2013, 09:12 AM
 
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It's public school.  If you want your kid to be a clone, send her to private school, complete with uniforms.  

 

 

Turing my kid into a clone wasn't high on the list of factors when choosing a school. :p 


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#139 of 140 Old 11-01-2013, 10:55 AM
 
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Interested in talking more about self-expression and individuality and how that relates to clothing, I started a spin-off: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1392340/clothing-fashion-self-expression-individuality-a-spin-off-discussion-about-clothing-and-its-significance-for-ourselves-and-our-kids


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#140 of 140 Old 11-01-2013, 02:36 PM
 
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I could be for uniforms if I hadn't seen it done so badly. Again and again. First, if the parents vote on it, that shouldn't mean it is in effect forever. Theoretically, every six years, roughly half the parents have turned over, so there should be a new vote. Parents from 10 years ago who no longer have children in the system shouldn't get to decide what my children wear now. Second, uniforms tend to make the schools gestapo-like about clothes, dictating every.last.detail about a kids clothes. (No kidding: sock trim color, size of brand logo on shoe, type of belt, and other absurd details.)

I do remember in middlel school wanting to wear a uniform. They came out with an optional one I liked. I wore it about 50% of the time. By the time the district came out with a mandantory uniform, it was ugly and waaaay too specific. I wasa teacher at that point and they wanted me to police the dress-code. Really, i had much more important things to do than worry about whether a 4-year-old had belt loops but no belt or had too big of a logo on the all white shoe! It seemed like the dresscode was a higher priority than learning! Kids should not be sitting in the office, missing class, because they forgot a belt. (And how many jobs does this really apply to? How many adults are sent home from work for a minor uniform infraction?)

Now, i teach where there are no uniforms and a VERY lax dress code. I was shocked when i started, bc everywhere i had been before as both a student and a teacher was very strict. To my surprise, it has been a total non-issue, for 7 years, not one problem.

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